..inte: Herbert Smith ..intr: Bobbi Kurn ..da: 1988 ..ca: ..ftxt: Interview of Herbert Smith June 28, 1988 Transcribed by: Maria Stewart Interviewed by: Bobbi Kurn TABLE OF CONTENTS Herb Smith June 28, 1988 Page No. Subject Names 2 Parents Sam and Minnie Smith 2 Wife Evelyn Smith 2 Children Michael Debra Corree Kenneth 3 Coming to Arizona 3 Brothers Charles Smith Arnold Smith 4 4-H Teacher Mr. Austin 6 Old shul 6 Gross Delicatessen 7 First Rabbis Rabbi Dow Schochet 9 Rabbi Krohn Rabbi Plotkin 10 The Zeitlins 10 Cave Creek, Az Sam Smith 11 Howard Ranch Morrie Brown 12 Founding of Smith Pipe & Steel Co. 13 Jewish merchants The Korricks The Goldwaters The Diamonds The Rosenzweigs 13 Air conditioning Korrick's Dept. Store Diamond's Dept. Store Fox Theater Page No. Subject Names 20 Big dance by Hebrew Men's Club 21 75-100 Jewish families 21 Horses vs. cars 22 Medical community Good Samaritan St. Joseph's Grunow Clinic 24 Movie theaters Rialto Phoenix Strand Orpheum Fox 24 Dates Upton's 26 Jewish Boy Scouts meet at Beth El 28 Israel becomes state Beth Israel 30 The Center Sam Hoffman Herman Miller Morrie Brown 31 Herb & Evelyn's wedding Rabbi Cardan 35 Water Problems Salt River 37 Grandson Joshua Saidoff 38 Beth El Rabbi Schectman 39 Beth Ells Cemetery 42 Federation campaign Yale Simon Herbert Smith Interview Bobbi: Good morning, Mr. Smith! Herb: Good morning! Bobbi: Thank you for inviting me in to interview you. Herb: You're welcome. Bobbi: My name is Bobbi Kurn. I'm a volunteer with the Jewish Historical Society. The date is June 28, 1988, and I'm at the business of Herb Smith, called Smith Pipe and Steel, and we certainly thank you for allowing us to come in. I want to get a few facts on the tape. Herb lives at 4101 E. Keim Drive in Scottsdale. His occupation is listed as an executive. He was born September 12, 1923 in New York. Ooo. Arrived in Phoenix 1930. Parents' name were Sam and Minnie Smith. Married to Evelyn Smith. He has four children: Michael, Debra, Corree, and Kenneth. He went to college at UCLA. Works at Smith Pipe and Steel Company, and his numerous civic and community services: City of Phoenix, appointed to many boards by state; also Arizona Club, Plaza, horse riding, Board of Directors for Community Center, Federation Board, General Chairman of UJA (United Jewish Appeal), and is on the Endowment Board. And I'm sure there's at least a dozen others . . . Herb: I think so. Bobbi: Activities that you did not put down. okay. Let's start with your parents. What were your parents' names? Herb: Sam and Minnie Smith. Bobbi: Okay. And where were they born? Herb: They were born in Russia. Bobbi: Okay. Herb: And I was born in New York, and due to health reasons, my dad came out to Arizona. He came out back in the '20s and he thought, he was out in Arizona for six months and he thought he got cured, and went back to New York. However, he got sick all over again, so we all decided to come out. And that was about 1930. And I remember arriving . . . Bobbi: Wait a minute. How did you get out here? Herb: We came out by train, and it took three days and three nights, and I remember coming to the Union Station here in Phoenix, it was in September, and it was hot, and we rented a house out on East McDowell Road. In fact, we lived right across the street from Creighton School. My two brothers, Charles Smith and Arnold Smith, and myself, grew up out there. We went to Creighton School and knew all the students there; knew all the teachers who play on the baseball team out there, and many times we used to go to school on horseback, although we lived right across the street, there was a place in the back where we could tie our horses up. And it was a beautiful experience growing up out there. We had a little farm, and I was a 4-H member, and my teacher at that time, and I believe he's still alive, his name is Mr. Austin. We attended all the exhibits for the 4-H and I always showed some of my prize livestock. There's a story to tell with that. Bobbi: Okay, good. Herb: I had a beautiful, white leghorn rooster. It was beautiful! And Mr. Austin said to me, just before the exhibit the following day, he says, "Herb, take that rooster and put him in a little bit of water and put in just a little bit of bluing, and that'll bring out the whiteness of this white leghorn rooster." Well, being a kid, if a little is good, a little bit more is even better! So I poured in a lot of bluing, and the chicken came out as a blue chicken! And, oh my God., all night long I was dunking that chicken just to dilute him, but nothing helped. And the first thing in the morning I ran to Mr. Austin, I says, "What shall I do?" He says, "Well, you've got to show the chicken-" So the following day two judges came by and they looked at the rooster and they says, "You know, I've seen a lot of roosters in my day, but I've never seen a blue rooster!" Even to this day, the old timers who remember the story always remember--call it out and say, "Hey, howls that blue chicken?" So here's where we're at. Bobbi: Did he win a prize? Herb: He almost won a prize, but what he was through the night before, he was pretty wilted. Held been up all night, and he didn't look his best. Bobbi: Tell me about your house: what it looked like; about the land around it. Herb: Well, we had a little farm. We had chickens and ducks and we always had a horse. We used to have a goat. Although we lived right across the street from the school everyday, we were late everyday! What I was going to tell you? Bobbi: Now, did you raise these for a purpose? Herb: No, just for our own consumption. Bobbi: You'd kill the chickens and eat them? Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: Oh you would. Herb: Oh yeah. We had turkeys too. Bobbi: And the goat. You got goat milk? Herb: Yeah, we had goat milk. Right. Bobbi: Did a lot of people do that? Herb: A few people. Yeah, quite a few. Phoenix at that time was primarily an agricultural area. Bobbi: Oh, I didn't know that. Herb: Yeah. And of course, this was during the Depression, and things were awful cheap, and things were, you know, scarce. So we grew up in the Depression, so to speak. I do remember that on a Saturday, Phoenix was very limited as far as having a Jewish population. And on a Saturday, in order to get a minyan at the old shul at Fourth Street and Fillmore, we would have to run all over town and try to find 10 Jews to have a minyan. And this went on every Saturday. And we used to have a minyan every Saturday at the old shul. Bobbi: You would get a minyan? Herb: Oh yeah. Bobbi: And a minyan was 10 men? Herb: Yeah. A minimum of 20 men. Whoever you approached to come for a minyan, they would drop what they're doing and, by golly, they'd come to shul. And that was it. Bobbi: But they didn't live too far. Herb: No, no. Phoenix was . . . We lived out in the toolies, so to speak. But the majority of the Jewish people lived in town. Bobbi: Which was considered . . . Herb: Around Central and south of McDowell to Roosevelt, in there: Portland and Culver; Willetta. In that general area. Near Central. Between Seventh Avenue and Seventh Street. Bobbi: So most of the Jewish people did live close together. Herb: Right. And we even had a Gross delicatessen there, which was here for years. In fact, it was a very good delicatessen. He would import from California all the fish and lox and white fish and herring and all that. Bobbi: This was in the '30s? Herb: In the '30s. And the first Rabbi we had here was a Rabbi Dow. Although we would raise our own chickens a lot of times, and my mother would insist that we take the chickens to Rabbi Dow, and he was also the schochet. Bobbi: How do you spell that? Herb: Schochet? Bobbi: Yeah. Herb: S-C-H-0-T? T, I guess, Schochet. Bobbi: Okay. Herb: And um, Bobbi: That's for our typist, so she'll know how to spell it. Herb: And uh, Bobbi: And what does that mean? Herb: He would kill the chicken according to the Jewish ritual. One time I brought a turkey to his house. Bobbi: Dead or alive? Herb: The turkey was alive when I brought him there, and he went out in his backyard and he performed the killing of the turkey. I went in the house with Rabbi Dow and I came out to pick up the turkey and the turkey was gone! And we couldn't figure out whatever happened to that turkey! That turkey was just disappeared! So it was gone. Never did find it. We looked in the alley and all around and never found the turkey. Bobbi: Somebody stole a dead turkey . . . Herb: I don't know. Bobbi: And they blamed you. Was Rabbi Dow here when the family came? Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: How long had he been here, do you know? Herb: He originally came from El Paso. And he had been here several years before. He raised his family here. They're all gone from here. Bobbi: Did he live at the shul? Herb: No, he lived over on West Willetta. Bobbi: How did you people pay him? Herb: They had their little drive every year and everybody would kick in the pot and take care of all expenses. That was it. He also ran a kosher butcher shop on the side downtown. Bobbi: And everybody belonged to that congregation. Herb: No. There were two shuls there at that time. There was Beth Israel and Beth El. Bobbi: In the '30s. Herb: In the '30s, yes. Bobbi: And they both had houses--shuls? Herb: They both had shuls, yeah. Bobbi: Who was the other Rabbi? Herb: After a while it was Abraham Lincoln Krohn. K-R-0-H-N. And Rabbi Krohn was a very intelligent, intellectual individual. And I remember Governor Sydney P. Osborn had a very good relationship with the Rabbi--Rabbi Krohn. And I'll never forget, there was a migrant strike out here west of town, I believe it was in Glendale. And they were at an impasse between the owners, management, and labor. And they couldn't get together. And Governor Sydney P. Osborn called on Rabbi Krohn to go out and mediate the strike. And Rabbi Krohn went out there and settled the strike and everybody was happy. This was quite a coup for the Jewish population here. Bobbi: Why do you think he called on him--on the Rabbi? Herb: Because the Rabbi was a very fair-minded individual and had a lot of stature in the community. He was well-respected. He was Rabbi at Temple Beth Israel for many years. And then after his time, Rabbi Plotkin came in. Bobbi: Really? Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: Tell me about your house. How was it constructed? Herb: Oh, it was a brick house. Oh yeah, we had everything. We had no cooling. Bobbi: Nothing. Herb: No cooling. Everybody slept outdoors in the summertime. We fixed up sort of a screen porch-like and everybody would move their beds out there in the yard so the mosquitos wouldn't eat you up. We got along just fine. This was before there was even evap cooling. We had no cooling at all. I might tell you a story when my dad first came out here, everybody went to the Zeitlins. The Zeitlins lived on 16th Street and they had a large family, and they had a little farm there, too. They had a cow and they had everything. My father was living out in Cave Creek, Arizona, with a group of cowboys. Well, it was getting late one Saturday night, I believe it was Saturday night-- one night--and it was in the summertime and they had a lot of beds outside. So they said, "Sam, go out there and get a bed and go to sleep, and in the morning, why, you can go out to Cave Creek." Coming from New York, he never knew what irrigation was. So he laid his shoes down, and the following morning he woke up and he saw this sea of water underneath his bed, and his shoes were going down to the stream. And he felt the bed, and the bed was dry. And he said, "My God, where did all this water come from?" Unbeknownst to him that there was underground irrigation. It took him by complete surprise. He couldn't understand how come the sheets didn't get wet, the bed didn't get wet, and yet all this water was on the ground. So they explained to him about irrigation. Bobbi: That's how they watered the lawns? Herb: That's how they watered the lawns and the trees and everything. Bobbi: Did everybody have irrigation in those days? Herb: Those who lived in town had irrigation. If you lived outside of the district, you didn't have irrigation. And it's true today. People have irrigation, too. Bobbi: Now Cave Creek was . . . Herb: Cave Creek is about 30 miles north of Phoenix and there was nothing out there. There was an attorney years ago that came from Detroit. His name was Morrie Brown. He bought some land out there and had the grocery store out there called Howard Ranch. Bobbi: Was he Jewish? Herb: Yes. Morrie was a bachelor. In fact, the auditorium at the Jewish Community Center is named after Morrie Brown. He gave the money for the auditorium. He never did get married. He took care of his mother. He was a very strong family-oriented individual. He was a confirmed bachelor. Very bright and did very well for himself. Bobbi: And he lived in Cave Creek? Herb: He lived in Cave Creek for a while. And then he moved back into town. Bobbi: What would he do in Cave Creek? Herb: He was just living out there. Bobbi: Okay, we're talking about the bachelor Brown living in Cave Creek. There was no industry in Cave Creek? Herb: No, nothing. Just cattle country out there--cattle ranches. Bobbi: Now tell me what your dad was doing in Phoenix. Herb: He was, what was he doing in Cave Creek or doing in Phoenix? Well, for a while, since he came out here for his health, he wasn't doing too much, and then we got started in the metal business. Bobbi: How? Herb: We started the first foundry--let me qualify that--the first cast iron soil pipe foundry that was ever out West. By West, I mean Southwest. And we had a plant here that was making cast iron soil pipe. This was just before the war. It was around 1940-41. We supplied all the soil pipe that went into the air force bases here. It went into Luke Field, Williams Field. It went to Texas, Camp Arkley--even into California. Then the government put a clamp on building--on nonessential building--so that cut us out of the cast iron soil pipe manufacturing business temporarily. So we leased the property to Bowman McLaughlin who, at that time, had a government contract, an ordinance contract, where they would repair halftracks and Jeeps here during the war. Then we eventually went into the new steel business, but being in the foundry business, we were also in the scrap business. From there we went into the new steel business and the plumbing supply business. We've been in business here ever since. we have a branch in Tucson, and one in Albuquerque, and the home office here in Phoenix. Bobbi: How did your dad know how to start that? Herb: Oh, we all chipped in. We all worked. This is the only job I've ever had, other than being in the Army. So we sort of grew up in the business. Bobbi: What did most people do in the '30s in Phoenix? How did they make a living? Herb: Most of the Jewish people were merchants and they were in retail sales, so to speak. Bobbi: Any of them in money, finance, banking? Herb: No, not really. At that time there were the Korricks, and the Goldwaters, and the Diamonds, and the Rosenzweigs. I remember we used to come into town and cool off either at Korricks or at Diamonds department store. It was the only cool place in town other than the Fox Theater! Then after the war, Phoenix, more Arizona, really took off. At that time, after refrigeration came in, it opened up all the avenues. People started coming here from all over. Bobbi: Now was this air cooling, like evaporative cooling? Or regular air conditioning? Herb: No. Yeah. First it was evap cooling and then it was refrigeration. In the, say 1948-49 and early '50s, Phoenix really opened up and became quite a large metropolitan area. Bobbi: Tell me about your school that you first went to. How old were you when you came to Phoenix? Herb: Oh, golly, I was about six years old. Bobbi: So do you remember, were there a lot of Jews in your school? Herb: No. We were the only Jews in school. Bobbi: The three Smiths? Herb: The three Smiths. A lot of kids never saw a Jew before--didn't know what it looked like! Bobbi: Wow. How did you know that? Herb: Well, they just never--there just weren't any Jewish people out there at all. From Creighton School I went to Phoenix Union High School. Of course there we had a few Jewish families. We all participated in sports. I was on the baseball team. Arnold, my brother, was on the tennis team. Charlie was the student. In fact, Charlie went to University of Arizona at Tucson and graduated with the highest marks of any student. He was quite a student. He only had about six months to go for a Ph.D. if he wanted to go for it. Unfortunately he died at a very early age. Never smoked a cigarette, and got cancer of the lung and passed away. He was only 36 years old. Bobbi: They really even then didn't know what to do for lung cancer. Herb: No. Bobbi: Was there much anti-Semitism back in elementary school? Herb: Some, some. Not very much. Not very much. Bobbi: That's good. How do you explain that? Herb: People really had no contact with Jewish people. They couldn't blame everything that went wrong on them, so there wasn't too much. I didn't notice any. Bobbi: Was life hard in those days? In the '30s when you first came . . . Herb: Well, during the Depression they were rough, you know. Things were scarce and money was tight and jobs weren't too plentiful, so we all tightened our belts and we survived. Bobbi: Were there any really poor Jews in those days? Herb: Yeah. We used to get a lot of poor Jews coming through, and every year--this is a good one--every year around Passover, around Pesach, my dad would give my brother and myself some money to go buy food for some poor, underprivileged Jews that happened to be coming through town. I'll never forget, there was one family here that had many children, they had six, seven children, and we went out and we bought food and we brought it to their house. The lady said, "oh, it's awful nice that you brought us this food. Now what are we going to cook it in?" So we had to run out and buy her some pots and pans so that she could cook a Passover dinner. Bobbi: You don't remember the name, do you? Herb: No, I sure don't. Bobbi: Was there a father in the home? Herb: Yes, there was a father in the home, but he couldn't make a living. Bobbi: So other people would help pitch in, take care . . . Herb: other people would chip in and help out. Bobbi: But some people would come into Phoenix just on their way to California? Herb: Right. They were traveling through. Bobbi: How would they travel? By train? Herb: By train, by car, whatever. You know--truck. Bobbi: Would they stop for a week or a month or a year? Herb: Yeah. At least a week. Bobbi: And then how would you hear about them? Herb: oh, they would find out who were the Jewish people that would help out. Bobbi: I wonder if they went to the temples? Herb: They went to the temples, they went--you know, wherever they could. Bobbi: But there wasn't an organized system for helping them? Herb: No, no, no, no. But as they came through, why we helped them out and they went on elsewhere. Bobbi: Did the Jewish people stick together? Herb: More or less. You knew everybody in town. Bobbi: But you had other friends. Herb: We had other friends, sure. Bobbi: But mostly friends with Jews? Herb: Well, both, both, both. Bobbi: As a teenager would you only date Jewish girls? Herb: No. No. Bobbi: Ah Herbie. Herb: No. No. Pretty democratic. I dated everybody. Bobbi: How did your mother feel about that? Herb: Well, you know. She said, you know, the old story, "Go out but don't bring them home!" Bobbi: What was your mother's role in all of this? Herb: She kept the family together. She was a hard-working housewife who worked harder than what was necessary. Bobbi: In what way? Herb: Oh, she did all the cooking. She did all the baking. She did all the washing. We had no girls in the family, and she had to do it all. She was wrapped up in her family and she went above and beyond what people should have even done at that time. And she, too, died at an early age. What can I say. Bobbi: What kind of conveniences do we have now that she wouldn't have had then? To have made her life easier? Herb: Oh, the services we have today. The automatic washers and dryers and dishwashers and you know, all the latest developments. Bobbi: She would wash by hand? Herb: Everything was by hand. Bobbi: Really? Herb: Yeah. She would sew by hand. She would do everything. She was really a balibusta. Bobbi: What kind of Jewish atmosphere did you have at home? Herb: Very Jewish. We spoke Yiddish at home. We observed all the holidays. We were, in fact, my dad brought, many years ago he brought a Hebrew teacher from Los Angeles to teach us Hebrew. We used to go to Cheder here at Beth El and we had a pretty good Jewish education. Bobbi: This person slept here, stayed here, lived here? Herb: He lived here, yes. Bobbi: With your parents? Herb: No, not with us. He was a single man. He was a Hebrew teacher. He was here just for a few months. We always had Hebrew classes at the synagogue on Saturday. Bobbi: Most of the kids go? Herb: Most of the kids went, yeah. Bobbi: Some to Beth Israel, some to Beth . . . Herb: Yeah, some went to Beth Israel, some went to Beth El. You see, those were the only two synagogues in town. One was Orthodox and one was Reform, so at least you had a choice. Bobbi: I didn't know Beth El was Orthodox in those days. Herb: Oh, it was fully Orthodox. Then it became, over the years it became Conservative. But originally it was Orthodox. Bobbi: And that's where you went? Herb: That's where we went. Bobbi: Did more people go to Beth Israel or Beth El? Herb: It was about half-and-half. I think Beth Israel had a little larger congregation. Bobbi: Were children getting Bar Mitzvahed in those days? Herb: Oh sure. oh you bet. Absolutely. Bobbi: So that was expected? Herb: oh you bet. Bobbi: Would the Rabbi teach you, or were there teachers? Herb: The Rabbi would teach us, and then there was some other Hebrew teachers there that helped out. If you wanted to get an education, you could get an education. Bobbi: How often would you go? Herb: We'd go every Saturday, and then, once in a while we'd go one day during the week, and that was about it. Bobbi: Were there any parties, or dances, or activities? Herb: Yeah. There was more going on then than I think there is today because we were a small cohesive group. We had dances, and after the high holidays there was always a dance. (end of tape, side 1) Bobbi: Okay. You were saying that there was one big dance a year? Herb: One big dance a year, and that was at the Encanto Clubhouse, right after the high holidays, and you saw everybody there. Bobbi: Reform and Orthodox? Herb: Oh, it made no difference. Everybody came there. Bobbi: Who put it on? Herb: I believe it was the Hebrew Men's Club. I believe that's who it was. Bobbi: And all ages went? Herb: All ages. Bobbi: Even the kids? Herb: The teenagers, grown-ups, whoever. Bobbi: And what did it look like? Herb: It was a great big ballroom, and it had a band. Bobbi: A live band? Herb: A live band, and everybody came there to kick up their heels, and had a good time. Bobbi: Drinking going on? Herb: Oh, not much. Not much on drinking, but everybody was there to have a good time. Bobbi: And they would serve food? Herb: No, I don't think so. It was just for dancing. Bobbi: Oh my. I wonder if you had to pay to get in? Herb: I don't remember. Bobbi: And how many Jews were here in the '30s? Herb: Oh, I imagine we had something like 75 families--100 families--all together. Bobbi: Is that right? Herb: Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure there were at least 100 families. Bobbi: Can you think of anything about any of those 100 families that would be interesting to tell? Herb: Oh, a lot of them are still around. Some of them have passed on. That's about it. Bobbi: How did you keep busy in those days? Or did you . . . you went to school full time, and then did the kids work? Did the kids work after school, or they just kind of played on the street? Herb: No. Some of them had jobs; others didn't. When we lived out in the country we were always involved with horses. We always did a lot of riding. Always owned a horse. In fact, I own two horses today. Bobbi: Did each of the boys have a horse? Herb: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. We all had horses. Bobbi: Why? Herb: Well, it was just the thing to do. Bobbi: That was your means of transportation? Herb: It was transportation. It would occupy us. It would keep us going. It was just the thing to do. And then it reversed itself. The boys got involved--I'm talking generally--the boys got involved in automobiles, and the girls took over the horses! And that's true today. You find the girls are always taking care of horses today, instead of the boys. But years ago it used to be the other way around. Bobbi: Did your father have a car when you first came here? Herb: Oh yeah. We always had a car. Sure. Bobbi: What kind of medical help did your dad get here? Herb: Well, he came out here for his sinuses and his arthritis, and it seemed to dry it up a little bit, and he was able to get around--function. Bobbi: Do you remember much about the kind of medical community there was here? Herb: There were two hospitals then: Good Samaritan Hospital, and St. Joseph's Hospital, and Grunow Clinic, and that was it! Bobbi: Any Jewish doctors? Herb: Very few. Very few. Bobbi: Any? Herb: Yeah, maybe one or two. Bobbi: Pretty primitive, though. Herb: Pretty . . . we were roughing it back in them days, but it was good, you know. It was a good area to grow up in. Bobbi: Why? Herb: You don't have the problems that you have today, you know. Hey, people were people. It was really down to earth, you know. Bobbi: Crime? Was there any crime in Phoenix? Herb: Very little crime. In fact, we never closed the house. The house was always open, and nobody ever came around to steal anything. Bobbi: Sure. You could sleep outside then. Herb: Oh! It was a pleasure, you know. Bobbi: You didn't have crooks? Herb: No, not really. Not really. I'm sure there were, but I don't remember any. Bobbi: Any special memories of high school? Herb: Yeah. Let's see. I enjoyed high school. I was quite active in sports in school. We had a lot of friends. Even today the old-timers, they all remember us. We run across old-timers now and then, you know. Not too many, but once in a while. Bobbi: Still you got a good education? Herb: Yeah, sure. Bobbi: Did the Jewish kids stick together? Or not necessarily? Herb: Not necessarily, no. Bobbi: What kind of parties would you have in high school? Herb: oh, we'd get together and have different parties, but it was, you know, not the type of parties that they have today, though. Bobbi: Sure. Herb: But, it was good clean fun, you know. Bobbi: What would you do on a date, or where would you go? Herb: Oh, we'd go to South Mountain, so you'd go out north, or, you know. We'd double date or, you know, with Jewish kids or non-Jewish kids. It really made no difference. Bobbi: Did you go to any movies in those days? Herb: Oh, yeah. We had movies. We had the old Rialto Theater. We had the Phoenix Theater. The Phoenix Theater used to charge 11 cents. Bobbi: Great. Herb: And had the Strand Theater, and the Orpheum Theater, and, of course, the Fox Theater. This was our cooling off places back before the time of refrigeration, or before refrigeration became common. We used to go to get a milkshake for 10 cents. Bobbi: Where? Herb: Upton's. Bobbi: Where was that? Herb: That was on Washington Street and about . . . Washington and Second Street. Get a great big malt and they'd fill your glass up and then put the stainless steel container in front of you so you could have the rest of it to drink. Bobbi: Would you take a date there? Herb: Sure. Sure. You bet. Bobbi: Did you sit in booths, or at the counter? Herb: At the counter . . . Bobbi: At the counter. Herb: Booth--either one. Yeah. Bobbi: Is that the only place you'd go for a milkshake? Herb: No, no. There was many other places. Bobbi: Did you keep kosher in those days? Herb: We kept kosher in our home, right. What we did on the outside, we did on the outside, but the house was always kosher. Bobbi: Where did you buy kosher meats? Herb: From Rabbi Dow? Yeah. He used to bring meat from California, or he would slaughter it here with a special ritual way. He had a deal worked out with Tovrea Packing Company, meat packing company, or Midwest, and he would slaughter his cattle. Bobbi: So he had a good business going there? Herb: Oh, yeah. But it took forever to get an order. Bobbi: What do you mean? Herb: Oh. You used to go there say, on a Saturday, and the time you got out of there it was maybe two, three hours later. He would weigh the meat on the scale, and held say it weighed one pound and one-and-half ounce, to the tee. But we had a good life here, you know. Bobbi: What percentage of Jews kept kosher, do you think? Herb: oh, maybe 10 percent. Bobbi: So then after high school . . . Were you in any of the clubs? Was there AZA then? Or BBG, or . . . Herb: We had a Jewish Boy Scout troop. Bobbi: Really? Herb: Yeah, and they used to meet at Beth El on Fourth Street and Fillmore. In the back there was like a clubhouse, or a social hall. It was Troop 32, I believe. Yeah. I think it was 32. Yeah, we used to go up to the mountains, or South Mountains, or up to Camp Geronimo up north, and it was quite an active group. Bobbi: About how many would be in it? Herb: Oh, we had at least 50 scouts. Bobbi: You're kidding. Herb: No. Bobbi: Jews and non-Jews? Herb: No. This was a Jewish group. Bobbi: Fifty Jewish boys? Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: That's a lot. Herb: That's a lot. All together. Bobbi: Do anything Jewish? Herb: Different ages, you know. Anywhere from 10, 12, to 15, you know. Bobbi: Did you do all Jewish activities, or not necessarily? Herb: Both. Both. Most of it was regular scouting activities. Bobbi: Like . . . Herb: We had our own scoutmasters and hiking and overnights, and this sort of thing. Yeah. Bobbi: That was the in thing to do? Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: How about the girls? Herb: The girls? I don't know! Bobbi: They didn't have a Girl Scout troop? Herb: No. If they did, I didn't know about it. Bobbi: Did you do well in high school, Herbie? Herb: Yeah, quite well. Bobbi: And then what happened after high school? Herb: From high school I went to junior college--Phoenix Junior College--for one semester, and then I went in the Army. Bobbi: Oh. This is in the '40s now? Herb: This was '42, '43. Then when I got out of the Army I . Bobbi: Did you stay in the United States? Herb: Pardon me? No, I was all over. And then I went to UCLA. Bobbi: You rebel. Herb: I'm a rebel. I always wanted to go to UCLA. They used to have terrific football teams back in those days. After that I came back and went to work! Bobbi: For your daddy. Herb: Yeah. Been here ever since. Bobbi: What did you take in college? Herb: Oh, I took a conglomerate of every kind of course--business, engineering courses--you name it. Bobbi: With the idea you would come back and work with your dad? Herb: Yeah. Right. Took metallurgy, everything. Bobbi: Did it help? Herb: Yeah. I enjoyed it. Yeah, I had a good background there. Bobbi: So when you came back, was there a group of young Jewish people? Herb: Yeah, more so than before I left. Like I say, the big influx came after the war, around '48, '49, '50--in the early '50s. People started migrating out here. They discovered Arizona. Bobbi: Do you remember where you were when Israel became a state? Herb: Yeah. I was here in Phoenix, and I remember attending a function at Beth Israel. It was quite a deal. I never forgot that somebody mentioned that Israel was--right at the end of the war when the United Nations came into being, somebody said that, "All the nations will be represented there, except the Jews, who have suffered more during the Holocaust than any other group of people, and yet, they won't sit at the peace table to be represented." When Israel was born, it was a beautiful, emotional happening. Bobbi: I bet. Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: Good memories. Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: So tell me about the dating days, when you came back. Ah, this is the good part! Herb: Oh, well, I don't know. I did my share of dating--all kinds. Bobbi: Where would you go to meet girls? Herb: Oh, different dances and things. Bobbi: Oh, they had city dances? Herb: Yeah, yeah. Bobbi: What kind of organized Jewish community did we have in the late '40s, when you came back, early '50s? Herb: Well, the B'nai B'rith had deals going and then the center started up and we had the one who really got the center going was Sam Hoffman. They built the first center over near 16th Street just north of Camelback. That was the first center. And then in the early '50s, why we moved over on West Maryland. Sam Hoffman was very instrumental, and Herman Miller and that group all got together, and Morrie Brown, and . . . Bobbi: I remember him. Herb: We all chipped in. We all did what we did. We donated all the steel and plumbing in the Jewish Community Center. Sam Hoffman had his crew working there and all his subcontractors. They slapped that thing up pretty good! Bobbi: The one on Camelback? Herb: No. Both there and also the one I'm talking about is over on Maryland. They did a good job. Bobbi: So how did you meet your future wife? Herb: Oh, well, my wife is from Montana. And it gets pretty cold up in Montana. Her father and two brothers were in a similar type business that we are here. They decided to come down here for the winter. A lot of Montanans come down here in the wintertime. Evelyn was going to school at University of Washington in Seattle and she had a couple of impacted wisdom teeth, so she lost about two weeks of the semester, and it was getting pretty close to Christmas, so her father called her up and he says, "Look, you've already missed two weeks of school. Why don't you come down here and you'll go back to school next semester?" In the meantime, her father met my father and got acquainted. Her father said, "Well, I've got to go to the airport tomorrow and pick up my daughter." And my father says, "You've got a daughter?" He says, "I've got a son!" So she came in and I got acquainted with her and we started dating, and I dated her . . . She didn't go back to school the next semester. She stayed here. They stayed here for about five or six months, and I dated her all the time she was here. Then they went back to Montana, so that summer I and my dad went up to Montana. And I went with a ring! Bobbi: Where did you get the ring at? Herb: At Rosenzweig. We set a date, and her father flew Rabbi Cardan from Salt Lake City to Great Falls, Montana, to perform the wedding. Bobbi: How come? Herb: There's no Rabbis in Montana. Bobbi: How come you didn't bring someone from Phoenix? Herb: Well . . . Bobbi: It was her Rabbi? Herb: It was her Rabbi. Bobbi: That's true. Herb: Or, my father-in-law he had met Rabbi Cardan at some function in Los Angeles, and he was very impressed with him. In fact, Rabbi Cardan was the main Rabbi during the Pacific Theater of Operations during World War II. He was the main Rabbi. And he was very impressed with him, and he flew him from Salt Lake City where he had his . . . Bobbi: Congregation. Herb: Congregation. Flew him up to Great Falls to perform the wedding. And we got married and came back to Phoenix. Bobbi: That was a C? Rabbi . . . Herb: Cardan. Bobbi: With a C? Herb: C-A-R-D-A-N. We got married at the Rainbow Hotel, and, of course, the Weismans are old-timers in Montana. In fact, their father homesteaded in Montana, and her two brothers still live there. They have their families. Some of them have since moved away--the children. But the two brothers are there. The Weismans put on quite a wedding. Then we came back to Phoenix, and this is it. Bobbi: What was life like when you came back, for a young married Jewish couple? Herb: There weren't too many, really. I mean . . . Bobbi: What year was this? Herb: There weren't too many. They just started to come in. Bobbi: What year was this? Herb: This was in 1950. Bobbi: Okay. Herb: They just started to come in, and the communities was growing, and it grew and it grew. Bobbi: Were there any activities or any clubs, organizations? Herb: Yeah, yeah. We had different clubs. Most of it was through the B'nai B'rith and the synagogues and this sort of thing. Bobbi: Did you buy a house? Where did you live at the beginning? Herb: Yeah, I built a house over on West Whitton. Bobbi: Which is . . . Herb: That was in 1951, '52, '51. We lived there for about 10 years and then I built our home that I live in now, where I live out in Scottsdale. Bobbi: Who would have known in the '30s that there would be houses in Scottsdale? Herb: Oh my goodness. Bobbi: Was there a Scottsdale? Herb: No. Well, it was a wide spot in the road. Bobbi: What do you mean? Herb: Well, we used to go out there on a Saturday, and they had a band. It was right there at Main Street and Scottsdale Road. Every Saturday afternoon they had a band there, and they had where Lulu Belle's is. It was just a small, little wide spot in the road, so to speak. And then, of course, it started to grow and grow and grow, you know. Bobbi: It would take you a long time to get there, wouldn't it? Herb: Yeah. I remember that most of the streets were not paved. Bobbi: In Scottsdale. Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: How would you get out there? Herb: Drive out there. Bobbi: But what street would you take? Herb: Well, Indian School or Camelback. Bobbi: Were they paved? Herb: Camelback was paved. Indian School was partly paved. And of course, Thomas Road wasn't paved at all. Bobbi: And there was no Lincoln Drive or Glendale Avenue? Herb: No, no, no. This all came afterwards. Bobbi: What was sort of the outskirts of the city in the '30s and '40s? Herb: Say from Washington Street to Thomas Road--Indian School Road. Oh, Indian School Road was way out in the toolies. And it was usually from about 24th Street to Seventh Avenue--15th Avenue. I'd say 15th Avenue. And that was . . . Bobbi: And how far south would it go? Herb: Well, it would go down to, oh golly, Buckeye Road. Yeah. And of course there were families living beyond South Buckeye Road, you know. But it wasn't very well populated. Bobbi: Was there water problems? Herb: Yeah. The Salt River used to fill up, which would split the town in half, and people who lived on the south side couldn't get to the north side, and visa versa. That's right. It wouldn't last very long. It'd last maybe a day or two. The bridge at South Central would be flooded. That was the main way of going from north to south or visa versa. And when that bridge got flooded, all the other streets were washed out. Bobbi: Incredible. Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: But that wouldn't happen too often. Herb: Not too often, no. But we used to get some pretty good floods. It don't rain very often in the desert, but when it rains, it rains hard. Bobbi: Yeah, yeah. Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: Sounds like a good life. Herb: Yeah, it really was. It was simple, but it was good. You didn't have the problems and the complications that you have today. Bobbi: Did people get along better? Herb: Yeah, I think so. Less pressure. Bobbi: Right. Herb: Easier going. More congenial. We had no TV. We're lucky to have a radio. Bobbi: Yeah. Did people read a lot? Herb: People read more. Bobbi: And would they visit? Was there a lot more visiting? Herb: There was a lot more visiting. People would go visit more often. Especially if you come to a Jewish house, there was always tea and coffee and cake and fruit and you know. Used to socialize more on an individual basis than you do today. Bobbi: Like a few couples? Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: Would they come unannounced? Herb: Sure. Just come on over. Didn't have to have an appointment. It was simpler. Bobbi: Did people play cards? Herb: Played a lot of cards, yeah. They read a lot and they played cards and it was more family oriented. Bobbi: Did you call older people "Aunt" and "Uncle?" I used to do that in Tucson. Herb: Some. Some. Depends. Bobbi: Even though they weren't my aunt and uncle. Herb: Yeah. Some. Bobbi: Because we'd get close to them. Interesting. And then you had children . . . Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: And they went to school here? Herb: They were all born here. They went to school here. Most of them are gone. Bobbi: Now the children have children. Herb: Now the children have children. We just had our eight-year old grandson--his name is Joshua Saidoff--here. He was a real pleasure. Bobbi: How do you spell Saidoff? Herb: S-A-I-D-0-F-F. We took him all over and he enjoyed himself. Took him to the Arizona Museum of Technology downtown. He enjoyed that. We took him swimming. We took him out and I showed him my horses. Took him to lunch out there at Satisfied Frog in Cave Creek, Arizona. He said that's where he wanted to go. He's a very soft, sweet kid. Not because he's my grandson. He was just a delight--having him here for a week. We put him on the plane and sent him back to Los Angeles. Bobbi: Were you involved in the beginnings of any organization here in town--the center or the federation or . . Herb: All my family was involved in the center when it first got going . . . Bobbi: In what way? Herb: And also in the building of the shul over at...My father was president of Beth El when it was at Third Avenue and McDowell. He was president there. Bobbi: What year would that have been? Herb: That was about 1952 to '54, I think. He was always very active in the shul, in the synagogue. Bobbi: Remember any stories he told in those days? Herb: When he was president, that was the first time that they burnt the mortgage. Bobbi: Ooo. Herb: And I don't know what the financial condition is now, but he said under his administration, he says, "We're not going to have a mortgage." He raised the money and they burnt the mortgage. That was quite a ceremony. And Rabbi Harry Z. Schectman was the Rabbi at that time. Bobbi: How do you spell that? Herb: Oh boy. Schectman. S-H-E-C-T-M-A-N I guess. I don't know. Bobbi: Is he still alive? Herb: He's still alive. Bobbi: That's what I heard. Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: In Sun City? Herb: I don't know where's he living. (end of tape, side 2) Bobbi: But your father wasn't the first president? Herb: No, no. He was probably the fourth or fifth, or something like that. I don't know. But his picture's on the wall there. Bobbi: So what we he talk about or say about Beth El in those days? What was it like? Herb: Well, because of my father, Beth El got its own cemetery. Bobbi: Oh, I didn't know that. Herb: He heard about this piece of land that was within Greenwood Cemetery, and he arranged to buy it. After he bought it he turned it over to Beth El. At that time there were two-and-a-half acres, I believe. Beth El has since purchased additional land which is adjoining to our present site and which gives us about I think about five acres all together. I think it's about five acres. So he was instrumental in getting that piece of property, which is a very valuable piece, for Beth El. Beth Ells cemetery sits within Greenwood Cemetery. We have a relationship with Greenwood where they maintain and do all the perpetual care and everything else for the cemetery. Bobbi: I wonder where they would bury people before then? Herb: Different locations. I think Beth Israel has always had its cemetery. In different areas. However, during the '50s or early '60s, the cemetery was in dire need of grass. It looked like a pauper's field out there. It was just barren, and it was in dire need of attention. So my dad gave my brother Arnold a job. He says, "Listen. We gotta get grass into the cemetery. I want you to go around and see how much money you can raise to put in piping so we can bring water into the cemetery." Greenwood was willing to give us the water, but they said, "You have to provide the piping and the sprinkling and all the equipment to do the sprinkling of the cemetery." So Arnold went out and he raised a few thousand dollars. My dad says, "This is not going to do it." So the Smiths put in the piping and finished it off and we absorbed the cost of putting Beth El's cemetery into shape. Today we've got a beautiful--if a cemetery can be beautiful--then we've got a beautiful place out there where there's green grass, and there's shrubs, and it looks like a cemetery. Before that it was a barren piece of ground. We beautified it and we paid for it and got through with it. Bobbi: How nice. Herb: Yep. Bobbi: How about the extra acres that we have now? Herb: No, well, we had two-and-a-half acres that we put the piping in, and we were allowed to extend the lines for the additional property that Beth El has since bought. So we have the capacity for all the underground piping and so forth to extend the water lines, so it was pretty well thought out. Bobbi: That's neat. Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: What a nice . . . Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: Part you guys played. Herb: So the Smiths really, I think, have done quite well by the city . . . Bobbi: Sure. Herb: I think we've done more than our share. Bobbi: For sure. For sure. Herb: But there's always somebody who says you haven't done enough. But I think we've done a pretty darn good job. Bobbi: You bet. You bet. Of course, I remember when you were campaign chairman of . . . Herb: Yeah. Bobbi: The federation drive during the war. During . . . Herb: That's right. Bobbi What was it, the Yom Kippur War? Herb: During the Yom Kippur War. And you know, we only had 20,000 Jews then. And I raised almost 3,000,000 dollars! I gave up working here for six months. I never came to the office. And I was out there hustling people and trying to get money for Israel, and we raised almost 3,000,000 dollars. I had a bar mitzvah club of doctors, which is unheard of. I had 13 doctors that gave in excess of 10,000 dollars. Some gave 10, some gave 12, some gave 15, some gave 20, and one gave 23,000 dollars. And that's unheard of in any community. Bobbi: Yeah. Herb: We had over 80 families that gave over 10,000 dollars. Today you've got three times the Jewish population, and you can barely, barely . . . maybe you'll reach four, four-and-a-quarter. I don't know. But you've got three times the amount of people--Jewish people--to call on, that we had at that time. We only had 20,000 Jews. Today you've got almost 60. Bobbi: Yeah. Herb: So, you know. But you get out there and you work. Bobbi: Hard work. Herb: It was hard work. I enjoyed it though. Because I felt, hey, I wasn't doing this for myself. I was doing it for Israel, you know. When I get down, by golly, somebody would come through with a real good pledge and ah! The sky would open up, you know. Bobbi: Yeah. Herb: Made you feel good. Bobbi: Sure. Your daddy would have been proud. Herb: Huh? Bobbi: Your dad would have been proud. Herb: Oh yeah. My brother Arnold was also general campaign chairman several years before that. Then I was vice chairman under Yale Simon, and then in '74 I became chairman. Bobbi: Little knowing that there would be a war. Herb: Yeah. Of course, you know, that helped . . . Bobbi: Sure. Herb: There's no question about that. But you still had to get out there and ask for the money, you know. Bobbi: Most definitely. Herb: And that's what it takes. Fund-raising is . . . Bobbi: One-to-one. Herb: Yeah, it's on a one-to-one deal. Bobbi: Yeah. Herb: And that's about it. Bobbi: Good times. Good times. You've been involved, that's for sure. The Smiths have been involved, and the company continues to grow. Herb: Yeah. Yeah. Bobbi: And what's this new addition that you're putting up? Herb: Oh, we're putting in a new steel service center. We just bought six brand new overhead 100-foot cranes. Bobbi: Oh boy. Herb: It's going to be a state-of-the-art plant. It's going to be the showcase of the southwest as far as a steel service center is concerned. I'm enjoying putting it all together. Bobbi: It's time to retire, Herbie? Herb: Time to quit! Bobbi: And to play! Herb: That's right. I don't know, but I'm in it. You know the old saying, "You got the tiger by the tail, and you can't let go!" Bobbi: Yeah. Well, all right. I thank you for your interview. Herb: Thank you! Bobbi: We certainly appreciate your stories and your history. If you think of anything, call me..... Herb: All right, Bobbi. Bobbi: We'll add it to the tape. (end of tape) [end of transcript]