..inte: Sylvia Silverman ..intr: Bobbi Kurn ..da: 1985 ..cp: 1996.030.001 Clothing store in Bisbee owned by Gus Caro, Sylvia Silverman’s father, early 1900s. ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Sylvia Silverman December 4, 1985 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Bobbi Kurn Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Sylvia Silverman Interview Pages 1 Introduction Kroloff 1 Bisbee, Arizona Levin Goldbaum Archie & Freda Miller (aunt and uncle) 1 1915 came to Phoenix Archie Kroloff Bert & Harold Diamond (Mr. & Mrs. Abe) Spitalny family Brenda Meckler 2 Religious school Pearl Edelman Morton Edelman Barney Marks (Royal is the son) 2 Started temple Korricks Diamonds Rosenzweig Rabbi Likniz 3 Stores Goldwaters 3 Phoenix streets 3 No organized Jewish life 3 Director of Federation Julius Graber Si Kauffman Morton Edelman's mom Ruth Edelman Girand Pearl married Coleman Morton Edelman married to Betty 5 Early 40's Sam Straus 5 United Jewish Welfare Fund 5 Bisbee - why they came from Chicago 5 How they came 5- 6 Education 6 Phoenix 7 School 7 Library 7 Phoenix Union Louise Bacharach Morris Meckler 8 Men play poker on Sunday Herman Lewkowitz Harry Primock Mr. Wolpe Abe Goodman (father 8 Hot summers - people went away of Citrons) 8- 9 History of parents 9 No temple when she first came to Phoenix 9 When they held early services (no Torahs) 9 Reform 9 Beth El in 1941 had begun Morris Meckler Klein family 10 Joined Beth Israel Rose & Alan Rosenberg Rabbi Krohn 10 First principal of Temple Nat Silverman Beth Israel Phil Chapman 11 Started Jewish Family Services Rabbi Krohn 11 After war men moved to Phoenix 11 Confirmation class Milton Sachs 12 Temple Beth Israel Royal Marks Harry Rosenzweig Barney Marks Freda Marks Harold Marks 12 Sunday School teacher Pearl Edelman 12 20 students 13 Anti-Semitism Mr. Friedman Bert Friedman (son) Blanche Friedman married Bernstein (became a Judge) 13 Her confirmation class Louise Bacharach Milton Sachs 14 Temple Beth Israel 14 1949 dedicated 14 1941 - Hebrew Men's Club Camp Lebeau Saul Lebeau Cecil Newmark Nat Silverman Phil Newmark Al Wild Al's wife Esther Esther Wild 15 Early days in Phoenix - holidays 16 1915 16 Homestead land Shea Blvd. Aunt Bertha Goodman 17 Bought land north of Camelback Jack Hirsh 17 Moved back to Phoenix 1941 Central Drive-in 18 Jewish community when she was in elementary school 19 Social life X Club 19-20 Banker Sylvan Ganz Korrick Diamond Rosenzweig Friedman Goodman Barney Marks Funk family Ben Funk Arthur Funk Mr. & Mrs. Wolpe Marks family 21 Her parents Margaret Caro (mom) Gus Caro (dad) Morris Caro (brother) Bernice Caro (sister) Korrick Diamond Charles Korrick 22 Prima-Donna of community married Blanche 22 Jews In Phoenix Alma Korrick Mr. Straus Jo Straus Rabbi Dow Pearl Newmark 24-25 War days Rabbi Krohn 25 High school friends Rubinstein family Marshia Rubinstein Jeanie Rubinstein 25-26 How she met husband Bill Bruck Burt Fink 26 Why they moved to Phoenix Si Kauffman 27 1941 Gerst family 28 Began working at temple Bess Feldstein Ronnie Silverman Andy Silverman Rabbi Plotkin Mr. Pearlstein (Bud Goldman) 29 Federal director Hirsh Kaplan 29-30 Beginning of Kivel Old Age Home Blanche Korrick Alma Korrick Dorothy Herzberg 30 Friends of Silvermans when they moved Ted & Helen Pozil here in early 40's as young married couple Mrs. Albert Michaels Sophie & Aaron Citron Toby & Jules Citron Sylvia & Ted Doro Sam & Lucille Shapiro Eleanor & Al Spector Ann & Mike Segal Richard Segal 31 Close knit community Ida Bland Fay & Joe Gross Betty & Eli Schlossberg Jarvis Weiss Nellie Diamond Rabbi Krohn Rabbi Plotkin Rabbi Fierman Judge Cantor Archie Kroloff 33 Rabbis in Temple Beth Israel Rabbi Jaffa Archie Kroloff Rabbi Plotkin Judy Rosenthal Morris Kroloff 35-36 30's Archie Kroloff Jack Kroloff Herman Kroloff Sarah Kroloff Mrs. Fanny Kroloff Sybil Kartus Melvin Kartus Margaret Kartus 37 Restaurants in the 30's Grand Café Hattie & Charles 38 30's Sittenfeld Sylvia Silverman Interview I'm doing some volunteer work with the Arizona Jewish Historical Society. Today is December 4, 1985 and I'm in the home and talking to Sylvia Silverman. KURN: Sylvia, where were you born? SILVERMAN: I was born in Chicago (in 1909). KURN: And how long were you there? SILVERMAN: Two years. KURN: Then where did you go? SILVERMAN: Then we moved to Bisbee, Arizona. And It had a delightful Jewish community. As young as I was, I can still remember the people with whom my parents were friendly - the Kroloff family lived there, and there was a family by the name of Levin, a family by the name of Goldbaum, my aunt and uncle, Archie and Freda Miller. And we always had a very good time together. And then we moved to Phoenix. KURN: What year did you move to Phoenix? 1915? SILVERMAN: Yes. We moved from Bisbee to Phoenix in 1915. And my uncle and aunt moved here at the same time and so did the Kroloff family. At that time my father had two stores here, one he had in partnership with Archie Kroloff's, father. My uncle had his own store, and it was down on Washington street. My father's store was right across from Diamond's, which was located at 2nd Street and Washington. At that time I knew Bert and Harold Diamond. I was only a kid; they were grown and they were running the store. But we used to see each other and talk a great deal. Then down the street was a store owned by a family by the name of Spitalny. Whenever I walked by, they would grab me and want to know what I was doing. Then, my mother's favorite haunt was to walk down 1st Avenue between Washington and Jefferson to visit with Brenda Meckler's parents. She loved them dearly. In those days we all lived out by the capitol. Most of the Jewish families lived out by the capitol on West Madison, West Jefferson. I went to religious school. At that time there was a school administration building on 1st Avenue just north of Van Buren and they held classes there on Sunday. Pearl Edelman was my first religious school teacher. Her brother still lives in Phoenix; his name is Morton. After a few years a family by the name of Barney Marks - they are also old-timers - Royal is their son, who still lives here don't you know him? KURN: Don't know Royal Marks. SILVERMAN: He's an attorney; been here for years. A number of families got together; the Korricks, the Diamonds, the Rosenzweigs, my parents, and they started the temple on East Culver. We were just a nucleus of just a very few families at that time. No rabbi, but they held services. They would sometimes bring in a rabbi for the holidays, but when I was old enough to be confirmed they did have a rabbi here by the name of Liknitz. They had him for one year. I can remember in those days practically all of the retail stores -- with the exception of Goldwater's, which was in business then -- were owned by Jewish men. The stores were closed during the holidays. As a result, antisemitism reared its ugly head here, because people resented the fact that the stores were closed and they couldn't go shopping. When I grew up there was nothing like a McDowell just vast fields. I had a friend at that time who lived at a ranch at Central and Northern. Once in a while she would ask me to come and spend the weekend and it was like going away on a trip. I graduated high school at the age of 15 and left Phoenix to go to the University of California in Berkeley. What can I tell you about Phoenix? It was sort of an interesting period insofar as there was no organized community life. Money was raised, I can remember people coming from various welfare agencies into my father's store for a contribution. These people came from out of town representing various philanthropic organizations. of course the Federation, as we know It today, was organized In the 40's when I moved back here with my husband. I can remember the first professional director we had - a man by the name of Julius Graber. They were housed In a house on Central Avenue that was loaned to them by Si Kaufman, who owned it. After growing up here and moving away for a part of my life -- I moved back in 1941 -- by that time we had a nucleus of a better Jewish community; more people had moved In and there was already a Hadassah chapter, and there was a Sisterhood and there was a Council of Jewish Women. However, when I grew up there was a Council of Jewish Women, the only women's organization In existence at that time. I remember my mother was a member and used to go to meetings. The big joke of the organization used to be Morton Edelman's mother, who was a charming little lady and she came to all the meetings. She never knew what was going on but no matter what was discussed, without even knowing, she always seconded the motion. She seconded every motion; and, when anybody would ask her, do you know what it was, she would always say no, what were they talking about. KURN: Do you remember her first name? SILVERMAN: No. We'd have it at the temple I bet. KURN: That would be Morton and Pearl's mother? SILVERMAN: Morton and Pearl's mother. There was also another daughter, Ruth. She later became Ruth Girand. She married an engineer here. And Pearl married a man by the name of Coleman. Morton Is now married to Betty. KURN: They didn't have Hadassah during the war? SILVERMAN: When I moved back here In 141 we had Hadassah. KURN: But not before? SILVERMAN: No. Not before. It was In the early 40's that we had our first organized United Jewish Welfare Fund campaign. That was organized by Sam Straus. I'm trying to think of what would be interesting. I mean, the physical geography of Phoenix is really of no importance. It was just a desert, that's all. It's just the people that -- KURN: Now, originally what brought you to Bisbee? SILVERMAN: Well, my uncle and aunt had come from Sioux City, Iowa to Bisbee. Somebody had told my uncle that the mines were going full blast and there was a lot of money to be made. My parents were living in Chicago and my mother hated the cold winters. My father had a jewelry store there and he worked very hard, had long distances to commute to come home. My uncle got in touch with him and persuaded him to come to Bisbee. So, at that time I remember going to Bisbee by train. I had a brother. My sister was not yet born. We went by train to Bisbee. Life in Bisbee was really very Interesting and exciting. I can remember the school I went to burned down and they set up temporary quarters In the YMCA. But we lived in a house on top of a hill and It was in the wintertime and It was snowing in Bisbee. It was difficult for me, I was young and It was very difficult for me to get to the school. Two blocks from where we lived was a convent. My mother took me over there and told them that I was Jewish. She did not want me to have any religious training, Just the secular training. The nuns were absolutely fantastic. They were so good to me. I would come in the morning and the other students would be studying the catechism; they would excuse me. I was the only Jewish student In the whole convent. But I learned so much and I was so far ahead that when we moved to Phoenix they kept skipping me, and as a result I graduated high school at the age of 15, instead of 18. Life in Bisbee was fun, as I can remember as a little girl. My brother and I used to romp around the hills, play with donkeys. We thought everything was wonderful. When we moved to Phoenix it was like moving into a metropolis. I can remember the first place we stayed until my parents found a home was like - oh, I guess today you would call it almost a boarding house. We thought it was very extravagant. It was situated -- a great big, rambling two-story home -- right across the street from where the Westward Ho Is today. We had all our meals there and it was my first experience in eating grapefruit. I was so excited. I never knew grapefruit existed. I couldn't get enough of it I remember. I was very impressed because we'd come down to breakfast and they would have pancakes. I had never eaten a pancake at home and I was very impressed with this too. I originally went to grammar school; I went to Adams School, which was later named Grace Court School. My brother's and my chief love on Saturdays was to go to the library, 11th Avenue and Washington and look through the stereopticons. That was fun. KURN: Now, what is that? SILVERMAN: A stereopticon is one of these things -- well, it's an antique today. -You put slides into it and you'd look into it. It's a kind of a -- I don't know how to describe it to you. KURN: It has two pictures on either side? SILVERMAN: Uh-huh. And the librarian would give us a whole box of the slides so we'd go sit down. Then we would take out the books that we wanted to read and go home. Phoenix Union, where I went to high school, my high school years, was the average high school experience. There was a minimum of Jewish students. We really didn't have an opportunity to make close contacts with each other. I did have one close Jewish friend by the name of Louise Bacharach, who was distantly related to the Lewkowitz family. The Lewkowitz family moved here and I can still remember on Sunday afternoons the men would get together. I can remember Morris Meckler, Herman Lewkowitz, a man by the name of Harry Primock, a man by the name of Wolpe, and my father, and also a man by the name of Abe Goodman, who was the father of the Citrons. They used to play poker together on Sunday afternoons. My growing up years now are like a kaleidoscope of very, really not important events. It was Just growing up and trying to get out of here, because there wasn't anything here to stay for. It was very hot; the only thing we had to cool ourselves off with in the summer was an electric fan. My mother used to wrap herself sometimes in wet sheets. The town in the summertime, very often all of the women went away and It was Just inhabited by men only. KURN: Was there any organized Jewish religion in Bisbee? Was there any temple? SILVERMAN: No, nothing. Absolutely nothing. KURN: Holidays? SILVERMAN: We did nothing. KURN: Had you come from a religious home? SILVERMAN: My parents were not really traditionally tremendously Jewish. My mother was born and raised in Germany and not in a very religious home. She came from Heidelberg. Her father was a mayor of a city. My father was born in Poland and moved to Chicago with his parents when he was quite young. He grew up In Chicago and they were not religious. So, as a result, my mother and father observed the Jewish holidays insofar as Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur were very Important to them. I don't ever remember a Seder. I did not know what a Seder was until I met Nat and his father, being a cantor. KURN: I didn't know that. SILVERMAN: Oh, yes. Nat's father was a cantor. And of course he came from a very religious family. I was first introduced to Jewish life as it should be lived. Nat and I have lived that way ever since. KURN: So when you first came to Phoenix there was really no temple? SILVERMAN: No. When the high holidays - at the beginning before they had Temple Beth Israel on East Culver - before Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur some of the Jewish men got together and they would get enough money together to bring in a rabbi Just for Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur. We would have services. There was like a combination tobacco shop and restaurant on 1st Avenue Just north of Adams. Up above was like a hall. They would hold services in this hall. I don't even believe that we even had a Torah. KURN: Women sat with men? SILVERMAN: Women sat with men. It was Reform. Then of course when Nat and I moved here in 141 Beth El had already begun. Some of the men, like Morris Meckler and a group, decided that Beth Israel was too reform for them and they wanted a more Conservative synagogue. When we moved here we Joined Beth El because Nat came from a Conservative background. We moved here just before the holidays and Morris Meckler was president of Beth El. We joined and we went to services. It was so lacking In decorum, it was so bad. I was not accustomed to seeing people walking in and out during services. It bothered me tremendously. At that time there was a family living here by the name of Klein. I'll never forget on Rosh Hashonah she got up right in the middle of services and she stopped and she was talking to some women sitting in front of me and she pointed to one of them and she said, "Where were you last week? You didn't show up at our Maj game. You missed the best chopped liver you ever ate in your life." That was the end for me and I said to Nat, "I cannot come here to services anymore." I grew up in Beth Israel, I was confirmed there. We didn't even go back to Beth El for Yom Kippur services. We came to Beth Israel and we Joined and the first couple that we met were Rose and Allen Rosenberg. Rose had grown up in Los Angeles and knew of Nat's parents being -knowing that Nat came from the kind of home that he came from. She immediately introduced him to Rabbi Krohn and said, "We need a religious school principal." And Nat became principal of the religious school at Beth Israel, and stayed as principal even when we moved to our new temple on 10th Avenue until the temple was able to afford a professional, Phil Chapman. In those days we had more or less, I would say, nonprofessional religious school teachers. But the children were trained and they were bar mitzvahed. They hadn't gotten around to having girls bat mitzvahed yet. Rabbi Krohn started what is today Jewish Family Service. All of us worked very hard to get it an its feet. Then after the war there came the tremendous influx of Jewish families from all over the country. Some of the men who had been stationed in military fields outside of Phoenix became aware of our lovely winter climate and moved here with their families. And we became a larger, more interesting community by the contributions that all these people brought in, with their knowledge, their personalities, their know-how. KURN: You mentioned being confirmed here In Phoenix. What was it like in those days? SILVERMAN: Well, we had a very small confirmation class, I imagine In my class probably there were -- I can still remember there was a boy by the name of Milton Sachs, Royal Marks. I think Harry Rosenzweig had dropped out. He more or less had had what we could call maybe a private bar mitzvah. His father was quite religious and I think Harry had some private training, that his father had brought somebody in, I don't remember who. We had a rabbi at that time and we had a man who was very active in the temple by the name of Barney Marks. His wife had the distinction of being the only woman in the Arizona legislature, Freda Marks. KURN: Were they related to Royal Marks? SILVERMAN: His parents. And Royal had a brother by the name of Harold, who was killed in an airplane crash probably sometime in the 20's. It had to be some very small, you know, there was no commercial plane traveling in those days. He was in somebody's private plane and it crashed somewhere in Arizona. KURN: So you had Sunday School teachers? Did you have a little -- SILVERMAN: Pearl Edelman was my Sunday School teacher. I more or less studied a great deal by myself at home. The rabbi at that time as I can remember certainly was not paid enough to be what you would call a full time rabbi. So he would just give me a lot of books that I would study by myself. KURN: I wonder how big the school was In those days. SILVERMAN: I doubt that we probably had no more than 20 students, If that many. KURN: In the whole school? SILVERMAN: In the whole religious school. KURN: Were you close to those kids? Were they your buddies? SILVERMAN: Not really. somehow or other In those days the teenagers that were Jewish tried to melt into the non-Jewish community. They felt that It was an easier way to go than to be the target of anti-Semitism, which ran rampant in those days. KURN: Really? SILVERMAN: Yes. So, rather than be identified with other young Jewish kids -- one interesting family that lived here, and I liked them all very much, was a family by the name of Friedman. The father had a Jewelry store on Central and Washington. There were three daughters and a son, Bert. Blanche Friedman eventually married a man by the name of Bernstein, who became a Judge here in Phoenix, Judge Bernstein. I was somewhat friendly with these girls. My mother and Mrs. Friedman had a very nice relationship and so we were thrown together somewhat, and I can remember one summer Mrs. Friedman persuaded my mother to bring us to Los Angeles for a few weeks In the summer to get out of the heat. KURN: Your confirmation class must have been pretty small. SILVERMAN: Very small. I think altogether maybe 4 students in the confirmation class. KURN: Do you remember who they were? SILVERMAN: No, I don't remember who was confirmed with me. Yes, just one girl - Louise Bacharach was confirmed with me. She's the only one. And I remember one Hanakkuh play that I was in and I can remember Milton Sachs was in that play. In fact, I had the program of that and I gave it to Sylvia Plotkin one time. She may still have it, I don't know. Nat had some things ... through a Chinese Baptist group. And when they took the cornerstone out Nat at that time took whatever papers were in there. Temple Beth Israel was formally dedicated in 1949 and I have a picture of the temple showing the dedication ceremonies. It's sitting there and I think it's available to anybody who wants it. KURN: I wonder where it's at. SILVERMAN: I know where it's at. KURN: That would be nice to have. SILVERMAN: Well, I think Nat has one here, I don't know where. When Nat and I moved here in 1941 there was an organization called the Hebrew Men's Club - strictly social. B'nai B'rith met on one Tuesday and Hebrew Men's Club met on the alternate Tuesday. It was a fun group for the men, but when they decided that they were going to disband they took whatever money they had in their treasury and purchased a site In Prescott, which is now Camp Lebeau. That camp, which was started by the Hebrew Men's Club, was eventually turned over to B'nai B'rith. Then the men In B'nai B'rith worked on it; then they turned It over to the center. The Hebrew Men's Club has had a number of reunions, the last one being this past November 16th. It was interesting and rather sad In a way to see who was left and who was even interested enough to come. It was organized by Saul Lebeau and Cecil Newmark and Nat. Cecil's brother, Phil, flew in from Los Angeles to attend. Al Wild flew in from Las Vegas. In the early years in Phoenix Al and his wife, Esther, were very active in the community. Esther operated a women's millinery shop. Those were the days that women wore hats. KURN: Do you remember Seders when you first moved here to Phoenix? SILVERMAN: I had already become integrated into the traditional Jewish life by virtue of being married In Los Angeles. KURN: But before that when you came from Bisbee. SILVERMAN: Nothing. Nothing at all, except the only observances were Rosh Hashonah, Yom Kippur. During Passover there was no way even to get matzohs, because there was no store here. And my mother wouldn't let us eat bread, but we didn't have matzohs either. Just probably maybe a year I think before I went away to college my mother managed to have some shipped in and I had my first taste of fried matzohs and I thought that was a real delicacy. KURN: Was your father still alive then? SILVERMAN: Yes. My parents moved away from here. My mother could not tolerate the heat. My father sold his business. KURN: What was his business? SILVERMAN: He had a general merchandise store right across from Diamond's, 2nd Street and Washington. He sold his business. At that time, before they moved away, they had purchased land which is now Palmcroft. He sold all of his acreage for $100. KURN: I don't want to hear it. SILVERMAN: I don't want to hear it either. Nat had an uncle and aunt who had come to Phoenix from Philadelphia. We were not living here then; this was before Nat and I were even married. This was probably around 1915 they came from Philadelphia to Phoenix, and they homesteaded land on Shea Blvd. They had 300 acres. KURN: What's their name? SILVERMAN: Bertha Goodman. After living on it for a year they got title to it and they moved down to California. And probably it was some time in the early 50's she came to Phoenix and she wanted to sell the land. Nat persuaded her to not sell it. He had a feeling that it was going to be worth a great deal more than she was going to get for it. But she sold the 300 acres for $300 an acre. Can you imagine what that would be today - Shea and Tatum? KURN: Incredible. SILVERMAN: But there were some people that had the foresight. I can remember Jack Hirsh, who was the chauffeur for the governor. He was very shrewd and bought a lot of land north of Camelback and kept it. KURN: What was his first name? SILVERMAN: Jack Hirsh. KURN: I find it interesting that when you first came here there was no Jewish food available, no matzohs. SILVERMAN: You mean with my parents. KURN: Yes. SILVERMAN: There wasn't. Nothing at all. When Nat and I moved here there was already a Jewish bakery on East Washington and about 3rd Street called Handel's. And we were so happy to have it because we were able to get challa and rye bread. But they did not make bagels. I used to make my own bagels. KURN: Did you really? SILVERMAN: Uh-huh. They're really not hard to make. There was a delicatessen already on Central, Gross's, which was just south of the Westward Ho. So we had that when Nat and I moved here. KURN: What year would that have been? SILVERMAN: We moved here in 1941. And Gross's had a delicatessen. There were no Oneg Shabbats at that time after temple. Temple services started at 8:00 and were usually over by 9:00. We all went out for coffee to a restaurant on Central and Roosevelt called the Central Drive-In. That was the rendezvous for all the young couples, the young marrieds. KURN: Did you feel Jewish when you were in elementary school and high school? SILVERMAN: Not really. Not really at all. There were no really symbols of Judaica around that you could identify with. There was not really a real organized Jewish community. It was sort of a helter-skelter kind of existence. You knew you were Jewish because you were not allowed to forget that you were Jewish. But I daresay there probably was not one truly practicing Jewish family in the whole city in terms of, oh, there was no such thing -- it was impossible to keep kosher, completely. There was no way that anybody could. There were no Jewish foods available. The only market I can remember where my mother shopped at that time there was only one grocery store in the whole city, and that was A.J. Bayless, located-at 3rd Street and Washington. KURN: What kind of anti-Semitism was there? SILVERMAN: Well, a great deal. I don't think my parents experienced the anti-Semitism in the same form that the younger children did. Their generation seemed to have a bond between them socially, economically, but as a child going to school, both grammar school and high school here, the other children who were completely did not even know what Jewish life was, what Jewish people were, they'd never heard of a rabbi. They sort of Identified the Jews as being the killers of Christ. And that's all that they ever really knew. We were the target for their vicious remarks and there was nothing that we could do about It. We just had to make the best of it. KURN: Did you feel your teachers were anti-Semitic? SILVERMAN: No. The teachers were not. I had wonderful teachers in grammar school; I had wonderful teachers in high school that gave me every consideration, really encouraged me. That part of It was a very happy experience for me. But socially, all of social life at that time centered around Trinity Cathedral on Roosevelt. There was an organization called the X Club. It was a group of girls, which you could liken into a sorority. You had to be asked to Join, but you couldn't be Jewish. You had to be Christian to be asked to Join. They always conducted dances and picnics and If you didn't belong you were just left out of all of this. KURN: So, no Jews and probably no blacks. SILVERMAN: Oh. no, definitely not. I did have one non-Jewish friend who was very gracious and very kind to me at all times. Her name was Katherine Christy. She was very conscious of the anti-Semitism that existed and so were her parents. They were very unhappy about It. Her father was a banker here. There was a banker here by the name of Sylvan Ganz. He would not associate in any way with the Jews of the community, although when he passed away he wanted to be buried at Beth Israel Cemetery by Rabbi Plotkin. KURN: I wonder why. SILVERMAN: He had become Jewish all of a sudden. KURN: Oh, he had Judaism in his background. SILVERMAN: Oh, yes. He was Jewish. KURN: Oh. What was his name? SILVERMAN: Sylvan Ganz. KURN: G -- SILVERMAN: S-y-l-v-a-n G-a-n-z. He's buried at Beth Israel. KURN: Were you ashamed of being Jewish? SILVERMAN: I wasn't exactly ashamed. I don't know whether it was a case of shame - I don't think I took any particular pride in my Judaism. Sometimes I think as a child I secretly wished it would have been easier not to be Jewish, but I don't think there was any shame exactly attached to it. I'm sure that -- I don't think I can ever remember being ashamed. I just thought it would have been easier not to be. But, fortunately, all of that left me. KURN: What did most of the Jewish men do in Phoenix? SILVERMAN: Most of them -- well, there were the Korricks and Diamonds and each had a department store. The Rosenzweigs had a Jewelry store. The Friedmans had a Jewelry store. The Goodmans had a store on 2nd Street and Jefferson of general merchandise. Barney Marks was an attorney. There was another jewelry store owned by the Funk family. This was also a friend of my parents and a part of the poker group - Ben Funk was a part of the poker group. His sons later became the owners of Greyhound Race Track. KURN: What was his son's name? SILVERMAN: Well, there was one Arthur and -- I can't remember. KURN: Were there any poor Jews? SILVERMAN: The only family that I can think of that seemed to be in need at that particular time was a family by the name of Wolpe. And I remember that Mrs. Wolpe opened her home to young people that had to come out here to Phoenix for their health, and their parents were rather affluent and were able to keep them out here. I think I've told you about all the people that I knew. KURN: And they lived pretty much close together just because there weren't that many -- SILVERMAN: Yeah. When we moved away from the capitol most of the Jewish families lived either on Willetta or Lynwood, right off of Central. My parents had a home at 45 West Willetta and we lived right next door to the Marks' family. KURN: What were your parents' names? SILVERMAN: Margaret and Gus Caro. KURN: c -- SILVERMAN: C-a-r-o. KURN: Then there was a brother and a sister. SILVERMAN: I had a brother, Morris; and I have a sister, Bernice, who lives in Los Angeles. She was born here in Phoenix. KURN: What would the women do on a day-to-day basis? SILVERMAN: Well, a lot of the women -- my mother helped my father in the store. My aunt helped my uncle In their store. Most of the women, except for the Korricks and Diamonds, most of the women helped their husbands In their businesses. I can remember when Charles Korrick married Blanche and brought her here as a bride. She became like the Prima-Donna of the community. When my mother heard -she loved to sing, she loved music -- KURN: Your mom did? SILVERMAN: No. Blanche Korrick loved to sing; she loved music. When my mother heard that Charles was going to let her go to Italy to study music -- we didn't even realize that anybody ever went to Europe - they came from Europe. They didn't go to Europe. And she went. Alma Korrick was a very lovely lady; very active in the community. Her father, whose name was Straus, worked in the Korricks' department store. He was in charge of the men's department. Alma had a charming sister by the name of Jo Straus. KURN: None of the boys got bar mitzvahed in those days? SILVERMAN: Nobody. There was no such thing as a bar mitzvah. KURN: They wouldn't go out of town? They wouldn't go to California? SILVERMAN: No. There were no bar mitzvahs. Of course, Just being of high school age, if there were any weddings I don't know who conducted the services. I have no idea whether these couples -- I rather imagine that anybody that wanted to be married in the Jewish faith had to probably leave town. Of course, I was not in that age group of knowing anybody that was getting married. KURN: The boys wouldn't have had a bris. I wonder if they had any kind of bris. SILVERMAN: I think the first mohel that came here was Rabbi Dow. But that was already later. KURN: Were you married by then? SILVERMAN: When Nat and I moved to Phoenix Rabbi Dow was living here. In fact, he circumcised my youngest son. KURN: So he was here before you -- SILVERMAN: Yeah. My oldest son was born in Los Angeles and my youngest son was born here. There's a ten-year difference in their ages. KURN: I wonder when the rabbi came here. SILVERMAN: Rabbi Dow? KURN: Uh-huh. SILVERMAN: Pearl Newmark would know. She knew him. In fact, I think Pearl lived with them. Because I know Pearl's maiden name was Reiter. Somehow I make the connection with her and Rabbi Dow. KURN: Did you get Hanakkuh presents? SILVERMAN: No. Of course, I wasn't allowed certainly to observe Christmas, and I will have to admit I was very jealous of everybody that had a Christmas tree and was exchanging gifts. But no, there was no observance -- the only observance of Hanakkuh was that one year that we had this rabbi and he did have a Hanakkuh play at the temple. But there was no discussion about exchanging of gifts or anything beyond that. KURN: Well, then you come back as a bride and you've got a rabbi here and you've got a little temple, and eventually Join the temple, Beth Israel. SILVERMAN: Yes. After we left Beth El we joined Beth Israel right away. I thought we had a wonderful congregation. It was small; everybody knew each other by their first names; probably tops, maybe between 75 and 100 families altogether. I do remember that out of the temple we formed a USO group and we serviced the various Jewish military men of Luke Field, and the field in Chandler. In fact, I had a very interesting experience. Whenever Rabbi Krohn had to leave the city, Nat conducted services. One Friday evening Nat was going to conduct services on East Culver. We came into the temple about 7:30 and there was a soldier sitting there alone. I walked up to welcome him and Nat went up to see that everything was okay on the pulpit. I was sitting and talking with him and I asked him where he was stationed and he said that he wasn't stationed here in Phoenix, that he was a warrant officer and had come up from San Bernardino on business. I asked him what his name was and he said his name was Conrad Stepner. I said, "Oh, that's very unusual. my father had a cousin by the name of Morris Stepner, who was killed in an automobile accident in Chicago." He said, "That was my father." So when Nat got through with services and came down, I said, "I want you to meet my cousin." KURN: What a small world. SILVERMAN: It is a small world. KURN: I didn't ask you - you met Nat in college? SILVERMAN: No. In the early days in Phoenix, as any Jewish family moved In here, my mother was like the welcoming community. There was a family that moved here by the name of Rubinstein. They had two daughters, Marshia and Jeanie. We became very good friends. But the Rubinstein family did not like Phoenix because of the very intense summer heat and they moved on to California. But I kept in close contact with them. In the meantime I'd gone away to college and I corresponded with the girls. When I graduated college they invited me to come down and visit them. So I went from Berkeley to Los Angeles. Jeanie, the youngest girl, at that time was going out with a young man by the name of Bill Bruck, who was Nat's closest friend. Jeanie introduced me to a number of young men whom I was going out with and one of them, by the name of Burt Fink, asked me out for dinner one night and told me that we were going to go to a party after this dinner. It happened that Jeanie and Bill were going to be at the same party. Nat was there - invited to this party - and I walked in late with Burt, and I walked into the bedroom to put my coat down and Nat followed me into the bedroom and said, "You don't know it but we're going to get married." KURN: Oh, come on. SILVERMAN: Honest. I looked at him as though he was really far-out. The evening ended up that he took me home and Burt Fink took his date home. The next day Nat was at the Rubinstein doorstep. I remember we went out to play tennis and we dated from then on. When we got married they said oh, you didn't know each other very long; it'll never last. And we're going to be married 55 years in May. KURN: Why did you bring him to Phoenix? SILVERMAN: Well, I'll tell you how we got to Phoenix. I did not bring him to Phoenix. In fact, I did not want to come; he had to persuade me. When we first met my parents were still living here. Then when we decided to get married Jeanie Rubinstein, Nat and I drove here to Phoenix. I wanted him to meet my parents. And he fell In love with Phoenix at that time. He had always lived in Los Angeles, which of course was not the large city it is today, but it was large in comparison to Phoenix. He thought this was a charming, lovely little town; he never forgot it. Well, after Nat and I were married he was working in a furniture store in Los Angeles called Eastern Outfitting. I had a brother who was living in San Francisco and we went up to visit my brother. Si Kauffman owned Barrow's here in Phoenix. Nat met my brother for lunch in San Francisco and was introduced to Si and Si said, "Would you like to come and work for me." So we moved to San Francisco in 1940. We were there when the war broke out, in early '41. In early '41 Si Kauffman came to Nat and said, "I have an opportunity to buy a store In Phoenix owned by the Gerst family, Angelus Furniture on Van Buren. If you will manage it, I'll buy it." Nat was very excited - came home and told me we had a chance to move to Phoenix and I said, "You have a chance to move to Phoenix!" But after much due consideration and persuasion, we moved to Phoenix and Nat managed Angelus Furniture for Si Kauffman, and he's still with the Kauffman's on East Camelback. KURN: Barrow's? SILVERMAN: Uh-huh. In the meantime we've had our own store. KURN: Oh, you did? SILVERMAN: Oh, yes. We had a store on Central Avenue for a number of years, and Nat got tired of it. He didn't want the responsibility of running -- Nat enjoys people and sales and he loves just doing it that way and not having responsibility and the whole operation of a retail store. KURN: Then how did you start working at the temple? SILVERMAN: 29 years ago, believe it or not, Bess Feldstein was the secretary of the temple and she called me one day and she said -- it was before Rosh Hashonah -- and she said, "I am just swamped with work. Could you come down and give me a hand?" And I said, "I'll be happy to." So I went down and I helped her out and I stayed through Rosh Hashonah and Yom Kippur, and until religious school started, and then I said, "Nice. I enjoyed it." And she said to me, "I really don't have time to do all of rabbi's work. How would you like to just help him out?" Well, rabbi was delighted. I said, "Well, I'll come in a couple of hours a few mornings a week." Well, rabbi was delighted. I took over all of his work for him and I've been doing it for 29 years believe it or not. KURN: And your boys went to school there. SILVERMAN: Yes. Ronnie was bar mitzvahed in the old temple on East Culver on Simchat Torah and it was a lovely occasion. Nat finished reading the Torah and Ronnie began Genesis that night, which made it sort of an impressive evening. Andy was bar mitzvahed in the new temple by Rabbi Plotkin. Of course, by that time Phoenix had grown. Federation was then really a vital organ of the community. When Nat was president of the Federation they had a director here by the name of Pearlstein, who managed to alienate every single Jew in the community. So they had a meeting one night at Bud Goldman's house and this Pearlstein every other week threatened to resign. That particular night he decided to resign again and Nat said, "I accept your resignation." They brought in a number of candidates. Among them was Hirsh Kaplan. KURN: Oh, was he living here then? SILVERMAN: They brought in Hirsh Kaplan from Long Beach. Hirsh needed this climate very badly, so Nat more or less persuaded the personnel committee to give him consideration. So Hirsh Kaplan became our first really full time executive director. KURN: Was it a close vote? SILVERMAN: It was a very small committee. I don't think that there was too much -- I think Nat would be able to tell you more about that kind of thing than I could because I was not Involved at the time. KURN: Well, Hirsh has done some good things in this community. So It was a good choice. SILVERMAN: Yes. Yes. Nat was president of the Federation when the temple received the $100,000 bequest from Mr. Kivel. The temple didn't want to have any part of doing anything with this money and turned it over to the Federation. KURN: I never knew that. SILVERMAN: Oh, yes. It was originally given to the temple, with the proviso that they start an old age home. Well, nobody wanted an old age home. They turned the money over to the Federation and Nat called together a committee to decide what they should do with this money. It was the consensus that the community would benefit from a nursing home. So that's how Kivel started - with $100,000; matching funds from the government. KURN: Going back a bit: What was the temple like for a young married? Did they have Sisterhood - when you and Nat moved back here? SILVERMAN: Oh, yes. There was already a Sisterhood. Blanche Korrick, I think, was probably one of its first presidents. I remember Alma Korrick was a president. When I moved here I think Dorothy Herzberg was president. KURN: Did they welcome you? SILVERMAN: Yes - with open arms. At that time every new Jewish family that moved in was a plus, and it was fun. KURN: Other young couples here at the time? SILVERMAN: Oh, yes. Nat and I became very friendly with the Pozils - Ted and Helen Pozil, and she is now Mrs. Albert Michaels and lives in Sun City, married to a rabbi. We were friendly with Sophie and Aaron Citron, and Toby and Jules Citron; Sylvia and Ted Doro; Sam and Lucille Shapiro - we became very, very close friends of theirs. Then as years went on, Eleanor and Al Spector moved here; Ann and Mike Segal, whose son, Richard, now is a prominent attorney. I was secretary of Sisterhood when Ida Bland was president. Then Fay and Joe Gross moved here from Tucson and we were very friendly with them. Then Betty and Eli Schlossberg moved up here, and Eli became the pharmacist at the State Hospital. They were instrumental in forming what Is now the Chamber Music Society. Eli was very involved In the non-Jewish community. KURN: Did they have a young married group? SILVERMAN: No. No young married group per se. We were just a group of young couples that found our own way and made our own social life, but nothing organized. KURN: Did it center around the temple in those days? SILVERMAN: We were all involved in temple. Like, whatever went on in the temple we all worked for the temple. When the board decided to buy the ground where Temple Beth Israel is now located, we had a number of many, many fund raising events. I can remember Jarvis Weiss was in charge of a carnival that raised a lot of money. Then I can remember In those days we used to have dinners in our home and we would prepare the dinner and charge money. Nellie Diamond spearheaded this particular effort. It was a very close knit community at that time. Those were really wonderful days; they really were terrific. We were young and carefree, and there was no class consciousness. It didn't make any difference - you had money, you didn't have money, where you lived or how you lived. Everybody was accepted on the same level. Phoenix is not like that anymore. KURN: Then, of course, you had a lot more to choose from Jewishly. It was much more of a Jewish community at that time. The boys grew up with Matzoh. SILVERMAN: The boys grew up with Matzoh, and a strong feeling for their Judaism. I can still remember when Ronnie went away to college to UCLA and he was asked to join a Jewish fraternity. He said that he was not the least bit interested - he was thoroughly Jewish and the only fraternity he was Interested in making was Phi Beta Kappa, which of course he made. KURN: What rabbi was here when you and Nat came? SILVERMAN: Rabbi Krohn. KURN: And he stayed -- SILVERMAN: He was rabbi until he became Rabbi Emeritus. And before we had Rabbi Plotkin we had Rabbi Fierman. When Rabbi Krohn became Ill they hired Rabbi Fierman and he was here for Just a couple of years. There was some dissension In the temple and a group broke away, headed by Judge Cantor, all of whom have returned to Beth Israel in the meantime. KURN: Did they start their own congregation? SILVERMAN: Uh-huh. And they called it Temple Sholom. KURN: It goes back that far. SILVERMAN: Uh-huh. Then Rabbi Plotkin came 30 years ago. KURN: We had a Rabbi Jaffa somewhere -- SILVERMAN: That's a very Interesting story. Before Nat and I moved to Phoenix, Archie Kroloff was president of the temple before we came here. When we arrived Archie told us a very interesting story of something that had occurred before Rabbi Krohn came. Rabbi Jaffa was the rabbi and one Friday night he came to Archie after services and said, "I'm leaving." And Archie said, "What do you mean, you're leaving. You mean without giving us any notice?" He said, "Yes, I'm leaving." And he did. He left and went back to Cleveland. They found Rabbi Krohn in Albuquerque and offered him the position, and he came here with his wife, Eve. In later years Rabbi Jaffa and his wife and family returned to Phoenix. He wasn't affiliated with any congregation. Rabbi Krohn felt very bitter about the manner in which he had left the congregation and would not permit him to conduct services or be a part of the professional staff. Then when Rabbi Plotkin came and Rabbi Krohn was Rabbi Emeritus, and I believe Rabbi Krohn had already passed away, when It came up to the temple board, this consideration of Rabbi Jaffa, and Rabbi Plotkin urged the board to give him the title of honorary rabbi, which they did. Then he used to occasionally co-officiate with Rabbi Plotkin and he was considered part of the professional staff. But It was only through Rabbi Plotkin's efforts, because all of this that had taken place had no meaning to Rabbi Plotkin - he wasn't living here at the time, so it didn't affect him In any way. KURN: I'm just imagining you sitting in that chair at the temple those 22 or 29 years, seeing people come and go. SILVERMAN: Oh, yes. I've seen a lot of people. KURN: You knew who was doing what. SILVERMAN: And who was related to whom. KURN: You really knew the workings of the temple. SILVERMAN: Oh, yes. KURN: You could write a book about all the people. SILVERMAN: Well, Rabbi Plotkin and I could really write a book about everything that's gone on, interesting things, unhappy things, happy things, funny things. Yes, it's been a fun experience in many, many ways. KURN: Were you trained in this kind of work? SILVERMAN: No. Not at all. I sort of picked up my knowledge of Judaism by osmosis through Nat. Then working at the temple, of course, my knowledge increased tremendously because I couldn't help it. I was exposed to it so often, four mornings a week I go in and I'll be working with rabbi. I became very familiar with the whole set-up of Reform congregational life. I was never so shocked -- I was at services not too long ago and I was talking to Judy Rosenthal and she was absolutely bewildered when I told her that my father and her grandfather used to be business partners. She didn't even know it until I Just told her recently. I just took it for granted that her dad, Archie, had maybe at one time told her. She didn't know it. They had a store in Bisbee together. Her grandfather and my father. KURN: What was his name? SILVERMAN: Morris Kroloff. KURN: Do you remember him? SILVERMAN: Oh, very well. Oh, yes. I can still remember the early days In Phoenix when we lived out by the capitol. The Kroloffs lived Just a block from us and there were three boys - Archie, Jack and Herman. They had a daughter, Sarah, who was married at that time and living in Sioux City, Iowa. But she came to visit. And then eventually came back here for her health. She had contracted tuberculosis, I remember. But I can remember very happy times In the Kroloff household. Mrs. Kroloff was a wonderful cook - Fanny. I called her Aunt Fanny. She always had goodies for me. I can remember at that time Archie was going with a girl by the name of Sybil Kartus. This is before he married Dorothy and I remember that I was going to high school at the time and the two of them sat me down one day and taught me how to play bridge. KURN: Was she Jewish? SILVERMAN: Yes. Her brother, Melvin, still lives here. KURN: What was the last name? SILVERMAN: Kartus, K-a-r-t-u-s. Margaret Kartus and Melvin still live here. They moved here from Alabama and they were very Southern. See, as I keep talking I keep remembering families. I remember as a child - I wasn't even in high school - still had an aunt and uncle that were living in Chicago and they wanted me to come back to Chicago in the summer for a visit. My mother was afraid to send me alone on the train, but it happened that Pearl Edelman was going on the train and she supervised my trip. KURN: Golden State? Or Golden State wasn't here yet? SILVERMAN: I don't remember. Probably Southern Pacific. My father owned one of the first automobiles - a Moon. It was very, very fancy. I can remember as a child our greatest treat was if he would take us for a ride in the car. On Adam Street between Central and lst Avenue, In the summertime, was a place called the Rosetree. These were the days - I'm sure It was Prohibition - that they sold what was called near beer. My father would stop there and get a glass of near beer for my mother and one for him. If he let me take a taste I thought it was absolutely heavenly. There were two restaurants - one was called the Grand Café. It was on Adams between Central and 1st Avenue. And the other one was called the Chinese Kitchen and it was on central between Washington and Adams. I had a very Interesting experience at the Grand Café after Nat and I were married. When we moved here it was still in existence. I became pregnant with Andy and we were invited out to dinner one night. They were taking us to the Grand Café. They had dancing, and I remember sitting at the table and everybody was dancing but me. The place was filled with soldiers, and a soldier came up and saw me sitting alone and asked me to dance, and I refused. Later as I walked out he was standing outside of the café and he saw me standing up, and he knew why I had refused him. KURN: Nice memories. SILVERMAN: Yes, they are. Sam Spitalny lived in what is now a restaurant called Victor's. KURN: In Phoenix? SILVERMAN: On Camelback. KURN: That's the son of Abe Spitalny? SILVERMAN: No. Abe was Meyer's brother. KURN: Okay. Then we had a Pearl Needleman. SILVERMAN: Edelman. E-d-e-l-m-a-n. KURN: Okay. Then who was Ruth -- SILVERMAN: Ruth Girand was her sister. KURN: How do you spell Girand? SILVERMAN: G-i-r-a-n-d. And Morton Edelman was her brother, and he still lives here with his wife, Betty, after several other marriages he had, until he married Betty. Betty's sister was a woman by the name of Hattie Sittenfeld. Her husband was the only Jewish police officer in Phoenix. KURN: We had a Jewish police officer in Phoenix? SILVERMAN: Her husband. I just remembered that. KURN: What was his name? SILVERMAN: Let's see. Her name was Hattie Sittenfeld. He's Charles. KURN: Hattie. H-a -- SILVERMAN: -- t-t-i-e. And Charles Sittenfeld. S-i-t-t-e-n-f-e-l-d. He was the only Jewish police officer In the city. KURN: What city was that? SILVERMAN: Phoenix. KURN: In the early 1900's. SILVERMAN: Well, I won't say early 1900's. It would be like in the 30's. KURN: Let's see. Then we had a Rabbi Litton? SILVERMAN: Rabbi Liknitz, L-i-k-n-i-t-z. KURN: Then Julius Graber. SILVERMAN: Julius was our first Federation director. KURN: How do you spell Graber? SILVERMAN: G-r-a-b-e-r. KURN: Then Si Kauffman. S-I? S-Y? SILVERMAN: S-i. And two F's. K-a-u-f-f-m-a-n. KURN: Then Pearl -- Pearl married somebody. SILVERMAN: Pearl married somebody by the name of Coleman; non-Jewish. So you don't care. KURN: Who was Pearl? SILVERMAN: Pearl Edelman was my first religious school teacher. KURN: E-d -- SILVERMAN: E-d-e-l-m-a-n. KURN: Then Sam Straus? SILVERMAN: Was instrumental in starting the first UJA drive. KURN: How does he spell his name? SILVERMAN: S-t-r-a-u-s. Mal's brother. Mal Straus' brother. KURN: Then Louise Bacharach. SILVERMAN: Yes. She was a school friend of mine. KURN: How do you spell that? SILVERMAN: B-a-c-h-a-r-a-c-h. KURN: Jewish? SILVERMAN: Yes. I do have one very interesting thing to say. I don't know if you want to put that on tape. When Nat was growing up, when he was in high school he worked at the Western Union after high school. He worked with a young man who used to say to him, "You go to seminary and study to be a rabbi and I'll go to seminary and study to be a minister." Nat's father wanted him to be a rabbi, but Nat was not interested. When we moved to Phoenix and Nat used to take over for Rabbi Krohn when he was out of the city, he conducted funerals. One day he was called to conduct a funeral of Louise Bacharach's father, whose name was Simon Bacharach. It was held at Grimshaw Mortuary, which was on Monroe Street. Following this funeral there was a non-Jewish funeral, and when the minister came in Hal Grimshaw said, "It's very interesting there was a funeral conducted here just now by a layman who's in the furniture business, not even a rabbi, and probably one of the finest eulogies I've ever heard." This man said, "Who was it?" He said, "Well, it was a man by the name of Nat Silverman." It turned out that this minister was Fred Barnhill whom Nat knew when they were working together at the Western Union and he was the minister of the Congregational Church at lst Street and Lynwood, which was a block from where we were at 122 East Culver. [Tape runs out. End of interview.]