..inte: Nat G. Silverman ..intr: Bobi Kurn ..da: 1988 ..cp: Nat Silverman at groundbreaking for Kivel Nursing Home, 1957 ..ca: ..ftxt: Interview of Nat G. Silverman June 21, 1988 Transcribed by: Maria Stewart Interviewed by: Bobbie Kurn Arizona Jewish Historical Society TABLE OF CONTENTS Nat G. Silverman June 21, 1988 Page No. Subject Names 3 Family history Sylvia Ronald Andy 4 1941 Frank Feffer, Sr. 5 aliv-va-shalom Rabbi Krohn 5 Temple Beth Israel 6 Early Tempe days Bess Feldstein 8 Hebrew Men's Club 8 B'nai B'rith 10 Anti-defamation 10 Hillel 11 AZA 13 BBG Rabbi Krohn Archie Kroloff Charlie Korrick 13 Jewish Social Services Miriam Pizer 14 Sam's Restaurant Sam Kotzen 15 Community Council Harry Rosenzweig Charlie Korrick Archie Kroloff Harold Diamond 15 Executive directors Mr. Julie Graber 17 Federation leadership Charlie Korrick 18 Irving Diamond Sam Kadner Harry Rosenzweig Nat Silverman Page No. Subject Names 19 War years Jay Pearlstein Newton Rosenzweig Dave Bush 21 Federation Harold Alpert Sam Feinberg Sam Langerman Phil Taxman Phil Copeland Sam Shapiro Jarril Kaplan Harold Shapiro Milt Corwin 23 Beth El Rabbi Nathan Barack 25 Temple Beth Israel 27 Kivel Nursing Home Mr. Hyman Kivel 28 Al Spector Charlie Korrick Jay Pearlstein Saul Silverman 30 ADL, Anti-Semitism 30 1948: Israel becomes a state 32 Federation locations 36 Leaders of the community Charlie Korrick Harry Rosenzweig Harold Diamond 36 Federation directors Julie Graber 37 Saul Silverman Hirsh Kaplan Barry Siegel 38 Religious School in the '40s 46 Conservative movement which formed Beth El Morris Meckler Nat Silverman Interview Bobbi: It's June 21, 1988. I'm Bobbi Kurn. I'm with the Arizona Jewish Historical Society, and I'm in the home of Nat and Sylvia Silverman to interview Mr. Silverman. I see by his questionnaire that he lives at 1720 West Manzanita? Nat: Mackenzie. Bobbi: Mackenzie. And his occupation is sales in furniture. Barrows Furniture Company. He was born December 8, 1908. His sex is male. He was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Arrived in Arizona in 1941 from Los Angeles. Parents' name was . . . Nat: Reverend Abraham Silverman . . . Bobbi: And Bessie . . . Nat: Goldie Silverman. Bobbi: His children are Ronald and Andrew. He graduated from college in . . Nat: University of Southern California, which I did not put down. Bobbi: Okay. And community service and civic and Jewish affiliations--why are you doing that, Mr. Machine? Oh, because I didn't push it on zero. Um--are numerous, and we will go into that. Okay! Well, thank you for allowing me to come in. Nat: It's my pleasure. Bobbi: I will take down the numbers as we come to various sections and names. Because the typist does like to have names, and if I have any problems with spelling the names, I'll question you. Nat: Please do. Bobbi: Good! Okay. Tell me. You were born in Nat: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Bobbi: Right. And . . . Nat: I was born there only because my mother wanted to be near her parents when I was born. We really lived in New York, but my mother was visiting her parents in Philadelphia at the time I was born. Consequently, I was born in Philadelphia. But I didn't live there. I mean, it was a place that we visited my grandparents. My father's parents lived in New York. My father was a cantor of a temple in Brooklyn, New York. In 1918 he was called to serve in the Sinai Temple in Los Angeles as cantor, and it happened to be during a very serious flu epidemic. My mother, and brother, and sister and I remained in New York while he came out to Los Angeles. He was here in Los Angeles, or he was in Los Angeles, approximately six months before he brought us out, only because of the epidemic that was going on and he did not want to bring us to Los Angeles until the epidemic had more or less settled down. My father served the congregation about 25 years when he died at a rather early age. He was not very old. I was then married and, our son, to Sylvia in 1931. Ronald was born in 1933, and, by the way, Andrew was born in 1943. Ronnie was born in Los Angeles and Andy was born in Phoenix. I worked in Los Angeles. I don't know whether you want my history or whether you want the history of . . . Bobbi: You're doing fine. We're getting to Phoenix. That's good. Nat: Okay. I worked in Los Angeles for an Eastern outfitting company in furniture until I--for about 10 years--until I had an opportunity to move to San Francisco . . . to work for the Union Furniture Company up there. They asked me if I'd be interested and Sylvia and I picked ourselves up and moved to San Francisco in 1940. At that time my boss, Mr. Sy Kaufmann, owned Barrows Furniture Company. But he had an opportunity to buy another store down here called Angelus Furniture Company. And he asked if I would be interested in moving to Phoenix and managing that store. I talked it over with Sylvia. She was delighted, because this had been her home for so many years before we ever had even married, and consequently in 1941, we came down to Phoenix. We've been here probably 99 percent of that time, and have participated--both Sylvia and I--in varied functions of the community. When first I moved down in 1941, I was approached by Frank Feffer. Frank was then, Senior, this is . . . Bobbi: Right. Nat: Frank was then chairman of the religious school committee of Temple Beth Israel, and he asked me, having apparently looked into my background of Jewishness through my father's affiliations, asked me if I would be interested in assuming a position of, as principal of the religious school. Bobbi: What congregation was that? Nat: What kind of what? Bobbi: What congregation? Nat: Temple Beth Israel. I said--Rabbi Krohn, aliv-va-shalom, was the head of the congregation, or the spiritual head of the congregation, and, as such, was the so-called Titular Head of the religious school. Not wanting to interfere with his particular position, I suggested that possibly I assume the position of administrator of the religious school, which is really what they wanted, because Rabbi Krohn, while a fine teacher, was not really an administrator in running the affairs of the temple or the religious school. I assumed that, but soon Rabbi Krohn involved me in the entire operation of the religious school. Between Rabbi Krohn and myself . . . Not right. Between Rabbi Krohn and me. It's strange, you know. I often hear people when they say, well, "Please call so-and-so or myself." And that's not right. I'm wrong when I say what I said. I said, "Between Rabbi Krohn and me." And I. And I. Okay. Whatever it is, it's unimportant, but except that I know better. Bobbi: That's okay. Nat: We really taught the whole school. We divided the school. There was a scarcity of religious school teachers in the Reform movement in Phoenix, and Rabbi Krohn and I, with the assistance as a secretary of Bess Feldstein, actually ran the school itself. We divided the school into two sessions: a session from 9:30 to 10:30 that Rabbi Krohn took a class and I took a class, and then from 11 to 12:30 Rabbi Krohn took a second class and I took a second class and we, like the old red brick schoolhouse where we took all the children together, since we were the only teachers that were available. We grew, as you know. Bobbi: How many children were there approximately? Nat: We probably had 75 children between the four classes that we taught all together. Bobbi: What ages would they be? Nat: Well, they were then from probably seven to bar mitzvah age, or getting up to bar mitzvah age of 13. But we, what we tried to teach them at that time was the background of religion; the things that possibly hadn't lived in Phoenix, but perhaps no background at all, became interesting to them. Because now they were being really told the story of the life of the Jew . Bobbi: Right. Nat: From the beginning of history to its present day. Well, that went on for a short while--a couple of years Bobbi: That may get picked up by the Nat: A couple of years and we were able to get additional teachers. I then assumed only the administrative end of the religious school. Rabbi Krohn accepted the educational features as principal of the school, and we had a large school, eventually running the school up around 400 children. Bobbi: What location was that? Nat: That was at Second and Culver. Second Street and East Culver. Being involved in the religious school, I had many opportunities to meet so many of the parents of the children and involve myself or being invited to involve myself in varied organizations that were in existence then. I joined the Navy . . . Bobbi: Before we leave this--the temple and the school--can you describe what the classes looked like physically, if you were to walk in one of the classes now, what it would look like? Nat: Well, we had a, at Second and Culver we had a large, one large auditorium, where we held services, but it also served as an auditorium for the children. Then we had a second building that was attached to the main building, and there were classrooms and an office. The office was used by Rabbi Krohn and Bess Feldstein, and then we had three classrooms, but we only used two because I used one, Rabbi Krohn used one, and as long we had them, then we had additional teachers, and we had three teachers teaching the classrooms, and Rabbi Krohn and I assumed our other duties as administrator and educator. We eventually . . . oh, get back a little bit. Knowing, meeting parents I did in this very nice manner . . . I became involved in many other things. Of course, like all the Jewish men at that time, I joined the Hebrew Men's Club. I was invited to join the Hebrew Men's Club. In those days, you didn't join it if you wanted to. You had to be invited to join. I was invited to join the Hebrew Men's Club. I had been a member of B'nai Brith in Los Angeles, but after getting here I didn't quite get involved in it until someone brought it to my attention and said, "Hey. You're getting involved in the community, why don't you join our local lodge?" And I said, "I've been meaning to, but somehow or other it just got away from me." So I joined the local B'nai B'rith lodge. Bobbi: That didn't have anything to do with the Men's Club, did it? Nat: No, no, no. The Men's Club was a group of younger men that met on a social basis. B'nai B'rith was something that was really involved in national works, and local works, and some social, and so on, but their aims and their goals were far different from the Hebrew Men's Club. The Hebrew Men's Club was a "fun club" that we loved to meet and be in each others' company. We met every other Tuesday in the men's club, and the alternate Tuesdays we met at B'nai B'rith, so we were busy every Tuesday night, the men of the community belonging to these two organizations were busy. Bobbi: Stag night. Nat: Stag night. You had to say that, didn't you! All right. Bobbi: Was anybody ever asked to leave the men's club? or once you were in, you were in for life? Nat: No. You were in, no one I ever, in fact of the matter is, towards the end of the men's club (and I don't recall the year that it finally went out of business, so to speak) it became more open than it had been, and many people, many men, joined the Hebrew Men's Club to the point that it lost its rather exclusiveness, not from a standpoint of being snobbish, but of men that got along well together, and others that would not have been invited originally, became members of the men's club as, I'd say they so wanted, or they so desired. Eventually it lost its flavor, so to speak, and it was disbanded. Bobbi: Really. Nat: The few dollars, they never, they had few affairs, they raised some monies for varied communities that they donated, community affairs. They had a few hundred dollars, probably, in the treasury when they disbanded, and they presented that to the Federation, or what was then known as the community council at one of their drives. Now, B'nai B'rith, on the other hand, was an ongoing organization, and if you were interested in the workings of our people, the Anti-Defamation League, the youth, the Hillel, the varied functions of B'nai B'rith, you became involved, terrifically involved in it. I was invited to run for president, and was elected president of B'nai Brith. I'm not too certain of the year now. I would really have to look it up, but I don't remember it--1946 I think it was that I was president of B'nai B'rith. We grew into a very important organization because at that time there weren't too many men's organizations or any organizations here in the city of Phoenix. This Tuesday night became an important night to the men of the community. It's strange how you get involved in B'nai B'rith and it carries on, and you never quite lose the interest like you once had in B'nai B'rith. It isn't a matter of saying, "Well, I'm no longer active in it, but I lose . . ." You don't ever lose that touch with B'nai B'rith because of their deep involvement in national and community affairs. Well Bobbi: What were your meetings like in B'nai Brith in those days . . . Nat: In B'nai B'rith? Bobbi: When you were president? Nat: We did many community things. In a social way and in things that weren't being cared for in the community of the care for young people who are not, uh, how can I best put it? Who are not cared for in other ways in their Jewish life that weren't affiliated anyplace, and they were convinced to join the youth groups, both boys and girls of B'nai B'rith. We sponsored the B'nai B'rith Boy Scout troop. We sponsored the AZA. We sponsored the BBGS. When I say sponsored, it wasn't that we started it. We adopted it, so to speak, because it was part of a national organization. So our interests were in all respects from the young to the older senior citizens, so to speak, of our community. But our meetings were always well attended in those days. I don't know whether they are today, for some reason, because I think because mainly there are so many other organizations that people get involved in that they sometimes have to let loose of something to do something else. Bobbi: Did B'nai B'rith get involved with the war effort, or . . . Nat: Oh, yes. We were definitely involved in the war effort in gathering, well, let me say we used to gather clothes and sell them and give it to the welfare, but to the Jewish welfare board that sponsored programming and Jewish services and celebration of Jewish holidays and so on for our boys, and so on. So we were constantly involved in raising monies for these particular funds. our involvement in the war was mainly in the sale of war bonds and the sale of things that we would gather together to give money to these varied projects that concern themselves with the boys--both overseas and locally. It wasn't a local program particularly, except it was part of a national program, but we did our own thing here, so to speak, so that we were able to participate, as it were, in the war effort. Bobbi: You didn't get involved in immigration--bringing families over? Nat: No, no. B'nai Brith didn't. Well, from this as a president of B'nai B'rith, which then was the important organization in town, we became part and parcel of the community, constantly invited to participate in all the activities of various groups and so on, to speak at various groups and, and to do the kind of thing that today it involves probably the president of the Federation. Bobbi: Let me ask you one more thing about B'nai B'rith. What percentage of the men, Jewish men, in Phoenix belonged to B'nai B'rith at that time in the '40s? Nat: At that time? We had about 400, between 400 and 500 members. It was a fairly representative group because men of stature in the community had headed the B'nai B'rith, had been president. Rabbi Krohn was once president. Archie Kroloff was once president. Charlie Korrick was once president. I mean men of stature that were interested in furthering the aims and the ideas of B'nai B'rith. Well, from B'nai B'rith I became involved in community affairs--in the community itself. We had a social service group here headed by Miriam Pizer. Bobbi: How does she spell that? Nat: P-I-Z-E-R. Her husband was involved in the war effort in, I don't recall the capacity, but he was involved with one of the camps locally. But Miriam was a social worker from elsewhere, and since her husband now was situated in the Phoenix area, Miriam was engaged on a half-time basis to run a social service operation here. Bobbi: Jewish social service? Nat: Yeah, Jewish social service. There was no money involved, I mean, very little money involved. We did rent an office on First Avenue. I think it was First or Second. First Avenue, I think it was, across from what was then Sam Kotzen's Restaurant. And Sam Kotzen is to those who have been here a long time, it was the important kosher style restaurant in the downtown area of Phoenix where we met so many varied times at lunch times and all other times. of course, no matter when you went there, you were bound to run into people you knew. Bobbi: How does he spell that? Nat: K-0-T-Z-E-N. Bobbi: Is that the name of the restaurant? Nat: Yeah, Sam's, Sam's Restaurant. Sam Kotzen's Restaurant. We had an office right across the street. We thought of the beginnings of a community council. Bobbi: Wait a minute. What did social services do? Nat: Well, social services . . . I wasn't too involved in that particular at the time, and I'll tell you why I bring this matter up, . Bobbi: Okay. Nat: Because we were now interested that we had the social services who involved themselves with helping some of our less affluent Jewish people that were here, that were coming to Phoenix for health reasons and needed someone to get them started to find areas in which they could work, to find areas in which they could live, and so on and so forth. If someone got stuck here in Phoenix on the way to Los Angeles and had no money to go further, and this became the one organization you could refer to move on. Bobbi: Is this in the '40s? Nat: Yes, it was in the '40s. Bobbi: Okay. Nat: So now we gathered together. There were men like Harry Rosenzweig and Charlie Korrick and Archie Kroloff and Harold Diamond, and so many more, with the thought of sparking a community council, which is now known as the Federation. It was then called a community council. Of course, money was, again, a scarce commodity, and so we enlarged the offices of the social services to now have half-time social service worker Miriam Pizer, and half time she was more or less the director of the Federation, or of the community council. We found that that was not very satisfactory because the type of work that she was doing was an involvement that could involve her in more time one way or the other, so that she couldn't really say, "Well, now I'm a social worker and now I'm an executive director. So we found it necessary to bring in an executive director. And it started from that point on. The first person that we ever hired was someone by the name of Julie Graber. Bobbi: How do you spell it? Nat: G-R-A-B-E-R. Julie, I don't recall where he came from at the moment, but he had been an executive director elsewhere, came here and, again, they shared the same office, that is, the enlarged office. Bobbi: I wonder what his salary was? Nat: I can't think of it at this moment? But it was a full-time job for Julie. Bobbi: Young man? Nat: Julie was fairly young then. We were all young in those days. Bobbi: Sure. Nat: Forty-some odd years ago. Yeah, he was a fairly young man. Nice young man. Julie really got the community going. I mean, in organizing it. He had the knack for organizing. He was not quite as sophisticated as we had desired someone to be, but I don't know whether that we were ready for sophistication, that we were really just starting the whole ball of wax. Bobbi: I wonder what took up most of his time? Nat: Oh, we began fund-raising, of course. That was one of the main things that we found necessary to do because of all the things that were happening in Jewish life. The participation in organizational life in the community of things that were needed. There were now the beginnings of varied organizations that needed some guidance, and he was able to help in that. His time was well taken up, and, of course, my memory begins to fade a little bit because it's so long ago . . . Bobbi: Sure. Nat: But he was a busy young man. Bobbi: Local needs . . . Nat: Hm? Bobbi: Local needs was his main concern, or . . . Nat: Local needs and national needs. After all, he was involved in the fund-raising on a national level. You know, with the welfare funds and so on. Bobbi: So you were sending money to Europe or Israel at that time? Nat: Oh yeah, at that time. Well, there was no Israel at that time. This was before 1948. We were involved in the Zionist things and then the local things of Jewish import or problems that arose. It became Julie Graber and Miriam Pizer, they shared in the solution of problems as they arose, or partial solutions. Bobbi: Did you have a president? Nat: Well, we had a president. Charlie Korrick was the first president of the federation. He served from 1940 to 1942. I mean, while we come back a little bit beyond where we started, but the federation, the council at that time was merely a group of men that met without any direction, without any offices or anything. Just met to discuss community affairs. Bobbi: No women? Nat: No, no. I'm sorry. Bobbi: Just checking for the history. For the records. Nat: Yeah. Okay. Charlie served from 1940 to 1942. He was succeeded by another man that was very active in the community by the name of Irving Diamond. Irving Diamond served for two years, from 1942 to '43. Harry Rosenzweig, well, I shouldn't say that. From 1943 to (end of tape, side 1). Bobbi: K-A- Nat: K-A-D-N-E-R. Bobbi: First name? Nat: Sam. Bobbi: And he was? Nat: He was president from 1943 to 1945, and he was succeeded by Harry Rosenzweig, 1945 to '47. I was elected then in '47. I was president in '47, '48, in '48, '49, and '50. For three years I was president--during the formation of Israel and, of course, and all the excitement and all the fund-raising and all. Bobbi: Tell me about those days. Nat: Tell you about those days. Well, what can I tell you about those days? Again, my memory fails me in so many instances. It's hard to recall this. The excitement that we went through, the fund-raising we went through, and those days when we thought to raise $150,000 was all the money in the world. When I think of what we raise today and what we raised in those days, and what we thought we were raising a lot of money in those days, is today the pledge of one or two individuals. During this period, Julie Graber, or during my presidency, Julie Graber left for I don't recall where. We got in a man by the name of Jay Pearlstein. Jay was a fireball. In fact, too much so, to a point where his actions, his desire to make something of this community in a bigger way was resented by many who liked the peace and quiet of Phoenix. We still have that, don't we? And he really was in bad with many of the members of the community and the community council. And he was let go after a relatively short length of time. After 1950 I was--1950 to '52 Newton Rosenzweig was president of the federation. And then from '52 to 1954 Dave Bush was president. I had, in 1951, well no, really in 1950 meanwhile, I was also, after I stepped out of the presidency of the federation, I was elected president of Temple Beth Israel. Bobbi: Which was harder, federation president or temple president? Nat: Well, in those days it wasn't hard to be president of anything, to tell you the truth. It was a small community and we all worked together. We didn't have the . . . Bobbi: Really. Nat: We didn't have the schisms that exist in so many communities. So we really enjoyed it. Anyhow, I served as president. I was president when I, of the temple, when I received a call from someone in Los Angeles, a very good friend of mine, asking me if I would come to work for him in Los Angeles. I then talked it over with Sylvia, and we decided we would move back to Los Angeles. In 1950, right after I left the presidency of the federation, we moved to, then I was elected president of the temple, and we moved to Los Angeles. I was only there about a year-and-a-half, and then moved back to Phoenix then because we were used to the quiet and peace of Phoenix in those days and the hustle and bustle of Los Angeles was no longer a...am I rambling too much? Bobbi: No, no. You're fine. Nat: So we moved back here and I moved back with the intention of opening up my own store. Bobbi: I'll be darned. Nat: That was in 1952. I came in on a, I came back here on a Sunday, and I stayed with Rabbi Krohn because Sylvia was still in Los Angeles at that time, and we hadn't yet made all the plans to move her back here. That Sunday, why there was a temple meeting. And when they heard that I was back they, they reelected me to the board . . . Bobbi: I'm not surprised. Nat: And in 1954 I was again elected president of, no, in 1954 . . . So I served on the board of the temple. of course I went back on the federation board immediately. In fact, in 1954, from 1954, to '55, to '56, I again was elected president of the federation. All in all, I served five different terms as president of the federation. Three years at my first election, and two years on the second, which was actually five years all together, which brought us up to a point where after I served the second election, Harold Alpert was elected president of the federation for . . . what? Bobbi: Onward. Nat: Where were we? Bobbi: Harold Alpert. Nat: Harold Alpert served from 1956 to '58, and then was succeeded by Sam Feinberg from 1958 to 1960. Now, from '60 to '62 Samuel Langerman was the president. Sixty-three to '65 was Phillip Taxman. Sixty-five to '67 was Phillip Copeland. Sam Shapiro served from '67 to '69. Jarril Kaplan, J-A-R-R-I-L Kaplan served '69 to '70. Dr. Harold A. Shapiro . . . Bobbi: Dr. Harold Shapiro was president. Nat: That's '70 to '72. Milton Corwin, '72 to '74. And the rest you know from your husband. Bobbi: Right, right. Nat: That was the, of course many, many great things happened during those many years. Actually my presidency was 41 years ago that I was president of Bobbi: What are your memories of that? Nat: Well . . . Bobbi: Of your first presidency in '47? Nat: There was a lot of growing up that we had to do in the community. We were coming out of a small community--Jewish community--into a more prominent Jewish community. Our activities were more varied. More congregations came into being. More organizations were formed to pick up the work of our Jewish people. The life of the community, the life of the Jewish community became much more involved during the first three years of my presidency. Bobbi: In what way? Nat: Well, in the number of organizations that they joined and the social life that they now enjoyed. In the excitement of what was going on in Israel. The fund-raising that was done on behalf of Israel, particularly during the 1948 war, when a mass meeting was called at the community, met at Temple Beth Israel, and a goodly sum of money considering those days, something like half a million dollars, which in those days was, you know, was the equivalent of five million dollars, I suppose. But every dollar was sorely needed by Israel, and our community responded very well. Bobbi: Who called that meeting? Nat: The meeting was called at the request of the federation. I mean, we called the meeting. The constant growth of Israel as we saw it from its beginnings was an exciting time to live through. To try to recall the many things that we did because we were so involved in everything that went on, was a little bit difficult. We saw so many people become involved. We saw the federation grow. We saw a newspaper come into being. We saw--a Jewish newspaper come into being--we saw the life of the community become more solidified as Jews rather than just part of a community. The temples, the synagogues, the advent of new rabbis to the community all added to the Jewish life. To go back into when I first came here, we had Rabbi Krohn and we had Rabbi Barack. Rabbi Nathan Barack. Bobbi: How do you spell that? Nat: B-A-R--I don't know if it was two Rs or one--A-C-K. I think it was two Rs. B-A-R-R-A-C-K. Or it may have been one name, I don't recall now. Do you remember how Rabbi Barack spelled his name, honey? Sylvia: What? Nat: Do you remember how Rabbi Barack spelled his name? Sylvia: Spelled his name? Nat: Was it with one R or two Rs? Sylvia: One. Nat: One R. B-A-R-A-C-K, huh? Sylvia: B-A-R-A-C-H. Nat: A-C-H. Bobbi: Yes. What congregation was he with? Nat: Beth El. Bobbi: Oh. Nat: They were in a little congregation on Fourth Street. Sylvia: And Fillmore. Nat: And Fillmore. Sylvia: Then they moved to Third Avenue and McDowell. Nat: Then they moved to Third Avenue and McDowell, then they moved to where they are now. The . . . Bobbi: Were they involved in the fund-raising? Nat: oh, all Jews were involved in the fund-raising. There was never a time when the feeling was, "Well, you are Orthodox or you are Conservative, or you are Reform, and we'll go our way and you go your way." We were a community of Jews, and when the emergencies arose, we all joined together. We weren't ever at a point . . . our federation, or our community council board as it was then known, was composed of both Conservative--there was at that time, there was no Orthodox congregation, though it evolved shortly thereafter--of the Conservative and the Reform members of the community were members of the federation or the council board. Bobbi: Do you feel like most of the Jewish needs were being met in the '40s? Nat: Well, we never had enough money to really meet all the needs of the community. Even in those days, as little as we were, our fund-raising was certainly inadequate. History. History. Temple Beth Israel. Nineteen I don't remember the year. Well, we began to feel that our . . . again I'm rambling. We began to feel that our quarters were too small. That we were growing. We bought a piece of property on the northeast corner of Second and Culver Street so that we could enlarge the temple, and while it was really across the street, we felt that perhaps we could make the schoolrooms one area with the temple. I mean, we had a lot of different plans involved. The opportunity came, we bought it for a mere nothing out from an estate. Well, I shouldn't say a mere nothing, and yet, in those days, it was a mere something. Bobbi: You bet. Nat: But compared to what it was, and we had an opportunity to sell it, or we had an offer to sell it, from a doctors' group who wanted the property for a medical building, and it's still there, incidentally, on the corner. Which gave us the idea that perhaps we ought to build elsewhere. We looked around and we found a piece of property at 10th and Flower, between Flower and Osborn on 10th, which we bought. Again, you had those that were in favor, as any time you do, make any move, you had those that were in favor and those that were against. Those that felt we were biting off more than we could chew and some that thought that we needed to do something, we couldn't stand still, but if you stood still you're going backwards. We had so many varied opinions and so many meetings concerning it, but we finally got the congregation together; we put up the building where it presently is. It's now been up there for a great many years and has been a very successful congregation. But it was a, it's so reminiscent of everything that happens today and the repetition of history, of repeating itself, what happened then on a small scale, and happens today on a large scale, where every move you make has those that are for it and those that are against it. And eventually they all solidify and become one, and everything works out well. But before it comes to that fruition, you have a little bit of problems arising and it's still something that we constantly meet in our community life and our congregational life and our life as Jews or our life even as community members of the community at large. So there's the story, more or less . . . Bobbi: In a nutshell. Did you see any difference the second time you became president of the council as opposed to the first? Different focus? Nat: No, except that we were now more firmly established in the State of Israel and our fund-raising efforts were now concentrating on what we could send to Israel, the amount that we could send to Israel, the amount that we could keep locally for local needs. The advent of Kivel Nursing Home came in during my administration. Bobbi: When was that? Was that in the '50s? Nat: Hm? Bobbi: Was that in the '50s? Or still the '40s, do you think? Nat: No, we were now in the '50s. I can't recall the date that Kivel started. I don't know if I have it here or not. I just don't recall. I do know this: I was president when Kivel came to fruition. Bobbi: Up to then you did not have a home for elderly Jewish people? Nat: No, well, you see, there was a man by the name of--what was his first name? Kivel is his last name, and I can't think of his first name. Anyhow, he was a poor little tailor here in town. Bobbi: Oh really? Nat: I'll think of his name eventually. A poor little tailor here in town, and no one knew of whether he ever had any money or didn't. When he passed away he left $100,000 to the community to build a home for the aged. This was his wish. But he had an attorney. As I recall it was not a Jewish attorney, it was an attorney that apparently didn't know about the existence of a federation or the existence of a community council, or what to do with the money that was left, and so he gave it to Temple Beth Israel with the thought that they build a home for the aged. Bobbi: Is that right. Nat: We put the money in a fund and brought it up before the board. The feeling was that this was getting in an area that a temple could not really get involved in, in building a home for the aged. The terms of the will were that we were to start something within a year from the time of the death of Mr. Kivel to build something for the aged. Meanwhile, the fund grew from $100,000 to $105,000 in the one year. Still there was no action on it. According to the will, if no action was taken on it, the money would revert to his children within the year. His children lived in Tucson. Al Spector, who was a member of the board of the temple, contacted them and got permission from them to retain the funds until a home was built, and that the scope of the home was not just a home for the aged, or even a home for the aged, but really a home for the needy, the ill, and nursing--for nursing facilities for our people. So now we had $105,000 laying in the bank awaiting dispensation from someone to do something about it. At a board meeting of the temple, it was voted to tender the $105,000 to the federation to see if they'd be interested in building a home. The federation took up the challenge at once. The money was transferred to the federation. I keep saying "federation." At that time it was known as the "council." And from that evolved the Kivel Nursing Home. We received a grant from the United States government to build the home with the start of $105,000. I, as president of the federation at the time, appointed the first staff of officers, with Al Spector as the president, and the members of the board. I appointed them. The second year, of course, they were elected, but the first year I made all the appointments as president of the federation. So it came in that time that I was president, and I'm sure it was the second term that I served--the second couple of years that I served. Bobbi: You went out and found the land? Nat: Oh, yes. We found the land. I mean, all of this became a council project now. Oh, yes, we went out and found the land; we had a committee, and, of course, we appointed a building committee and it was quite an involved project. From that $105,000 we now probably have a, what is it--two million dollar--way up there, someplace. But, again, things have happened during the times of our sojourn in Phoenix. So many things have happened, and just to recall them, they get away from me. But there was a lot of excitement then in our community and a lot of things going on; a lot of people involved. Bobbi: Was there much anti-Semitism going on in the '40s and '50s? Nat: We had B'nai B'rith ADL involvement in anti-Semitism. Yes, there was some, but there always is some. I don't think that we were involved in any more anti-Semitism as compared to the size of our community than we are today as compared to our size community. Bobbi: How about when Israel became a state? Nat: Hm? Bobbi: How about when Israel, in '48? Nat: No. No problems at all that I recall. Bobbi: Good. Nat: I don't recall any problem. I think the feeling that we generally got was a sympathy for the people of Israel facing the many Arab countries who were determined to push them into the ocean, and the kind of happiness that the American people have for the underdog was exemplified in the attempt of Israel to beat off those that were trying to push them into the sea, and their successful attempts to do so. Bobbi: Did you have a celebration, do you remember? Nat: Oh, yes, we had the celebration for the . . . When it was declared a state there was a celebration and there was, and of course war started right after that and there were . . . Bobbi: Do you remember how Phoenix celebrated when Israel became a state? Nat: I don't remember. I wish I could go back and read some of these details. You know you live the details and you never think of, "Well, someday this will become history." If you recall at our last meeting, I said exactly that. We involve ourselves with--those of us who are past history--we don't think that the younger people, and I was told that yes, they try to involve the younger people, but the younger people are not involved in this, because they are the ones that are making history today, and they are the ones that will be sitting in your position and in my position trying to recall what happened 40 or 50 years ago, and it's a little difficult when so many things have happened, to pinpoint any specific thing that might or might not have happened, and that's why I think that the historical society should involve younger people not to the detriment of the older people, not to discard the older, but to add younger people to a board of this type that can write the history today that will become part of the archives of historical Phoenix in a Jewish way. But as I looked around the room I found only those that were involved in the past history of Phoenix, and nobody involved in the future. And I think that, you see, if someone said to me, "Now look, Nat, this is a time to write down the things, to keep track of the things, because someday there'll be a historical society that that will want to know what happened to our Jewish people on the way up." There were so many things that happened and so many people involved that--and some that are still involved--since the inception of the federation or the council. Lord we moved, we moved from this little office across the street, from Sam Kotzen's office to a place on, I think it was Third Avenue. We found a house there and we converted it to a combination sort of center and federation and offices and so on from which we conducted our business. we were then offered a house on North Central Avenue that we used for a while for our federation activities. The center came into strong position. They built a place on 16th and Camelback and the federation moved over there and offices from the center, then the center moved over to where they are today, and again the federation moved with them. Now the federation has moved out. The center remains, and you see, things like that are things that I wish I had even jotted down memories as they came to me. And now I sit and I try to think of things that happened. But so much happened to bring a community from maybe 65 Jews to the size it is today. When I think of what we raised in funds in those days and what we raised today, and it's still not enough but it's still a long ways away from what we were doing then, that it's important that we encourage younger people to get involved in this and to keep records of what happens. Maybe this is something the historical society will want to do, is keep records of things as they happen. We have a newspaper now. You can refer back to news in the newspaper and find out what happened and so on, but we didn't have all of those things. Bobbi: Luxuries. Were you involved in the Jewish community center? Nat: Yes, for a great many years I was. I was one time vice president of the community center. Then I dropped out of that because at that time I was so involved with the federation as such that it was getting more than I could do and continue working all the time, because in any community you get involved in one thing and pretty soon you're involved in everything. You know, Neal here knows. It's the old saying, "A busy man has more time to do the things than someone that does nothing." You know it, and I know how busy both you and Neal have been in community affairs and how because you show a willingness to do just exactly what you're doing, they want you to do other things. "Well, she did a great job in this, we ought to call on Bobbi to do this, do that." And I see your name so often in the Jewish News and bulletins I get and so on of the job you're doing. And you're one of those people that can't say no too readily. And knowing that you are capable of doing it helps you to say, "Okay, I'll do it." So it's not something that they look for people that aren't doing anything, but (end of tape, side 2). Bobbi: In looking back, how would you want people to remember Phoenix in the '40s and '50s--the Jewish community? Nat: As a growing, rather vibrant community of interested people in Jewish life who were trying to make something of themselves not only as Phoenix community members, but as Jewish community members. Their anxiety for the growth of a temple, for the growth of a synagogue, for the addition of additional temples, for the hiring of executive directors to run the community council, for the growth of the social service, the growth of so many other organizations that we were struggling to get along and we were constantly calling on the same people to do everything. I mean, it's obvious, I was president of the federation. I was president of B'nai B'rith. I was president of the temple. I was vice president of the community council. I mean, I was vice president of Kivel for something like 12 years. I mean, everything that you do invites other people to say, "Well, gee, why don't you do it for us, too?" if you say, "Well, for him I will say yes and for you I will say no," kind of puts you down as, "What do you mean you'll help them but you won't help us? We know you can do it," and I know that you and Neal experience exactly the same thing that, "Gee, how can I turn so-and-so down when I've accepted to do this for this group, and for this group I say no." Bobbi: Do you think volunteers worked harder in the '40s and '50s? Nat: Only because we were so few. We had to draw on much the same people. Fortunately, we had the leaders of our community were also Phoenicians of note so that they were involved in Phoenix; they were involved in the growth of Phoenix; but they were also involved in the growth of the Jewish community. So I think that we went through a process of development there that is reflected by what we have today: Kivel, social service, community center. The number of community centers that we have in the area, in the Greater Phoenix Area, the federation, the existing building now for the federation, a new building for the federation, the enlargement of the center, the gymnasium, the swimming pool, all the things that were added after the original center was built, so that you have a desire to constantly grow and grow and grow as a Jewish community. And numerically we are growing, and we will continue to grow to a point where we'll be one of the leading Jewish communities, I think, in the United States. When I say that I'm not saying New York or Philadelphia or Los Angeles, I'm talking of a vibrant community, that has now proven itself in many instances, and will continue to do so in the years to come. So I think that the 140s laid a good foundation for what we have today. We relied more on the same people to do the work, because there weren't that many available left to do it. But those of us that did work in the 140s were interested in what we did, and it never made any money. There are times when, if you are financially able, you are called upon to do things hoping that you will help financially support it. In those days it wasn't a matter of finances. Everybody worked towards the betterment of the Phoenix Jewish community. To put Charlie Korrick, who was a leader of the community, in leadership positions, and he accepted responsibilities; a Harry Rosenzweig; a Harold Diamond; I keep repeating these names because these were the men that were active in the community, but they were leaders of the community: our community, Phoenix community, and the Jewish community, so that in reality we had prominent men at the head of our community and they were always interested in the growth of this community. Bobbi: Do you remember the executive directors as time went by? You started off with..... Nat: Well, we had Julie Graber and we had Jay Pearlstein. We had, I think he was, oh no, he was followed by . . . Honey? I can't remember his name now, in fact he just passed away recently and I read about it, I can't think of his name. We've had some that have been here longer than others. We had Saul Silverman, and we had Hirsh Kaplan, we had, what was the name of the young fellow that was the head of the federation? Bobbi: Well, we had a Barry Siegel a couple of years ago. Nat: Barry? Was Barry executive director? Bobbi: Oh, he was campaign. You're right. He was campaign. Nat: There was a young fellow. What was his name? Weinz or Weinstein? I keep thinking of the names. There was this, there was one name in there that I can't, I can't think of the name, and as I say, I just thought of it the other day because he passed away and I read about it and it brought it to my mind. Bobbi: Most of these people were not born here. Nat: No, in fact none of them were that I know of. None of the directors were. Bobbi: Or even the lay people. Most of them were not born here. Nat: Well, not in Phoenix. I mean, the community isn't that old, at that time. Now you see we're talking about some forty-some-odd years in which a person born in Phoenix could readily have been president of the federation or have been an officer of the federation or have been made member of the board for many years or whatever it might be. Because they're now reaching the age that we were when all of this started. But as I say, there's so many things that are hard to remember, hard to recall, and they happened one right after the other so that what was, was. I don't know what else I can add to what I've already said. Bobbi: Any memories, fond memories of the temple in the old days? Nat: Well, there were many fond memories I can think of. I always enjoyed working with the religious group. In fact, even to this day, and this is so many years ago,, I still serve on the board of religious education of the temple. Basically because I think that's the important thing that we have to do in any temple or synagogue is see that our children get their--just as you and I were talking, why weren't we taught Jewish, to speak Jewish, you know, and what our children are today learning, and what is important. I think no congregation is worth it's salt if it doesn't concentrate on the children. oh yes, I think senior citizens are important--I'm one of them. And I think that members are important. I think the drawing in of young parents is important, but I think the education of our children is above all else. Bobbi: Now in the '40s, when you were teaching religious school, did you have boys and girls into the religious school? Nat: Oh yeah. Oh sure. Sure. Bobbi: But you only had boys training for Bar Mitzvahs? Nat: In those days, you rarely thought of Bas Mitzvahs or of any of the girls. We had a confirmation service which served in lieu of their Bar Mitzvahs, though the boys themselves could become confirmed, it was a time after the 13th year when they were confirmed. Boys and girls graduated, so to speak, and a confirmation service was part of the conclusion of their schooling, their formal schooling. Bobbi: Like eighth grade? Nat: No, I don't think it was the eighth grade. I think it was when they were 16 years old, or something like that. That meant that a boy that was Bar Mitzvahed would come to school for another two-and-a-half or three years. The girls would continue studying or coming to religious schools until they were serving their last year in their confirmation class. So it was something that they had to look forward to. Of course, today, we have the Bas Mitzvahs, which . . . Bobbi: Did you teach Hebrew to the children? Nat: Yeah. I taught Hebrew. I taught history. I taught religion. I taught ethics. I mean, we taught everything in . . . Bobbi: Would you teach the girls Hebrew? Nat: Oh yeah, yeah. What was in the class was taught the basic elements of Hebrew. We didn't go into Hebrew as a language. Our aim was to teach them to be able to read the prayer book and understand the prayers. We explained the prayers to them, and the meaning of prayers, and then the ability to read the prayers in Hebrew, but not with the intent of, well, someday you'll speak it. Who knew what was going to happen? Bobbi: And you would have a one-school room, one with all ages? Nat: We had three classrooms, and Rabbi and I used two of them. We had our classes for an hour-and-a-half at one session, and the second session was an hour-and-a-half. And we would have, the younger children would come from 9:00 to 10:30, I forget the exact times now, and the others came at 11:00 to 12:30, and they were the older children. Bobbi: The older children? Nat: Well, it was from, probably, the first grade to maybe the fourth or fifth grade, and then the older children in the second portion. And the Rabbi had a portion of them and I had a portion of them. Bobbi: And was that the beginning of Temple Beth Israel religious school, or had it been going on? Nat: Oh no. No no. They'd been going on, but not too successfully because, while Rabbi, God bless him, was a good educator, he was not a good administrator, and the religious school was just being run. That's why they asked me to come in. Not being run to a point of bringing the kids who want to come to school, who want to learn 8/10 of their religion, so it was just a matter we had a school, and if they wanted to come they came, and no one kept after them, no one followed up on it. This became my job, so to speak, after I was relieved of teaching. They had to draft me into teaching because we just couldn't get any teachers in those days. Bobbi: Did they pay you for this? Nat: No, I wouldn't accept the money. No. Oddly enough, they wanted to pay me, and I said, "No. I'm very glad to do it." Bobbi: How about when you were administrator? Was that a pay job? Nat: No. Bobbi: No. Nat: No. I was doing that in my spare time. Bobbi: Really. Nat: Sure. Bobbi: And then they slowly started getting new teachers. Nat: Finally, as the congregation grew, and there were more and more people available that had had some kind of background, and we would hold seminars during the summer months, for instance, to bring them up to date on teaching methods. Rabbi would have that on teaching methods and teaching certain things that they did know about history, about Jewish ethics, and about Jewish stories, and about Hebrew. We had specialized Hebrew teachers that could teach some Hebrew. So were beginning to grow; we were beginning to expand. It was all just part of a . . . They'd had a helter-skelter operation before that never had any goal or couldn't really, despite what Rabbi wanted to do, he was unable to bring it all together. And that's why I was brought in. Bobbi: Well, you are part of our history, young man. Nat: Well, thanks for the young, anyhow! Bobbi: Part of the history of Phoenix. Nat: Now what was that name I was thinking about? Bobbi: There was a federation director long ago that we can't think of. Nat: Well, there was someone . . . Sylvia: First of all, when you asked about the federation presidents, you were wrong, because you didn't have Sam Straus in there. Nat: Sam Straus was never president of the federation. Sylvia: How about Kadner? Nat: Huh? Sylvia: How about Sam Kadner? Nat: Yeah. Bobbi: Now Sam Kadner, is he a director . . . Nat: They didn't have all the names of all the presidents. Sylvia: Oh I thought they had all the names of . . . Nat: Oh no, Honey. They just picked out a few names, that's all. There weren't more than five or six people that were named. Sylvia: Oh. Bobbi: That they could interview. Nat: I've got the . . . Sylvia: I've got the Jewish . . . Oh I thought . . . Bobbi: Mr. Kivel's name was Hyman Kivel. Nat: Hyman Kivel, that's right. Bobbi: The man that left $100,000 for an old-age home. It's nice we named the home after him. The least we could do. Nat: Yeah. Sylvia: He left it to the temple. His attorney gave it to the temple. Bobbi: Right. Nat: Yeah, I mentioned that in the Bobbi: Well, we thank you for this history. Is there anything else you want, any addendums here? Nat: Well, no. There's so many things I just can't recall. And there was so much I couldn't remember. I was president during the war of 1948, and . . . Sylvia: And we had all kinds of interesting experiences. Nat: And yet I try to remember and it just goes away. Bobbi: Those are important years for our history. Nat: Oh, they were. Sylvia: Well the things that happened would not be interesting to Jewish history for the archives, like when Rabbi Krohn was out of town, Nat conducted services one night, and a G.I. came in from one of the fields and sat down next to me. He was a warrant officer. Bobbi: I think you told me that story. Sylvia: Yeah. You know, these things, you know, a lot of interesting . . . Nat: Well, that's not Jewish history per se, those are happenings. Sylvia: A lot of crazy things happened during those years. Nat: Well, I'm talking about the many things that happened that the war of 1948 when Kivel was started, when all the organizations, many organizations came into being and strengthened, you know, and so many things happened and the temple was built . . . Sylvia: The AJC started at Rosenzweig's house. Nat: Yeah, the American Jewish Committee started. I mean, there were so many things that happened that just escaped my feeble memory. Bobbi: Well this was interesting. I learned a lot. Nat: Well, it goes back a long ways. Bobbi: It's good. We thank you. Sylvia: Did I ever tell you my story about Belle Latchman? Did I ever tell you that story? Nat: You mentioned it. But go back over your notes. The family service was, the director of family service, Miriam Pizer, was the first director on a part-time basis before we hired Julie Graber. Bobbi: But the federation people would get together every once in a while just to..... Nat: Oh, they did, even before I got here. See, I didn't get here until 141. And beginning about 140 Charles Korrick every once in a while would call up some of the men that he knew and they'd get together and they'd maybe have lunch and talk about community, what's going to happen to the community. originally there was one congregation. Bobbi: But that's interesting that they would get together before . . . Nat: Well, it, see, if was before our time, even, when they started the federation. In 1940 Charlie Korrick would call a meeting though some of the . . . Sylvia: Oh yeah. Nat: But it wasn't, it really wasn't. See, as I started to say, they had one congregation here--look out there's water on there or something--that was Temple Beth Israel. Yeah, okay. And then there was, as most congregations are wont to do, they get into discussions and arguments and so on and so forth. And some withdrew from the congregation and formed Beth El. Some wanted a more Orthodox movement, and others wanted a more Conservative..... Bobbi: So Beth El was a spin-off of Beth Israel? Nat: Beth El was a spin-off of Beth Israel. Bobbi: I never knew that. Nat: Yeah. And . . . Bobbi: Ho, ho, ho. Nat: One of the leaders in that movement was . . . Bobbi: Was it Zeitlin? Nat: No, no, no. What was the name of . . . ? He was in the jewelry business. Bobbi: Not Rosenzweig, no. Nat: No, no, no. She's still living; he's gone sometime now. She's a writer. Honey! Sylvia: What? Nat: Yeah, Morris Meckler. Bobbi: Morris Meckler. Nat: Why couldn't I think of it? I mean, I knew Morris so well. We worked on so many committees . . . Sylvia: Well, he played poker with my father. Nat: So Morris Meckler was one of the leaders of the revolt movement that started the . . . Now that was before my time, I don't know . . . But this, they probably got together to talk about things like the congregation. They never did go into an Orthodox congregation, but they went into a Conservative congregation, which it now is. But this was the spin-off from Temple Beth Israel. Bobbi: Now their original constitution or whatever--bylaws--that Beth El says Conservative/Orthodox. Nat: Yeah, yeah, well, because that's what started the whole thing was the fact that some wanted more orthodoxy in the services; more Hebrew in the services; the wearing of the yarmulkes; more of the traditional prayers; the wearing of talesim. Then there were those that were strictly Reform--didn't want to wear hats and didn't want to use the tallis. I mean, you know, what has happened in Jewry is that Conservative has come back a ways, and Reform has come back a ways, so they're really closer together. It's true that you go to the Conservative congregation and they still wear the yarmulkes and they still wear the talesim, and they still read a lot more Hebrew than they do at the Reform congregation, but they're not quite as far apart. There was a time when the Reform movement was so strict that they even held--I mean this goes back a long time ago--they even held services on Sundays. It was all in English. There was never any Hebrew at all in the prayers. But they've come back and the--the Conservative have come back--then the Orthodox were unhappy with the Conservative, because there now is a lot of English in the Conservative service, and the Rabbi speaks in English, and it's not a matter of all being Orthodox. And so they're going to an Orthodox congregation. Sylvia: Well Beth Israel has become watered-down Conservative. Nat: Yeah. Bobbi: Well, did Beth Israel ever have services on Sunday? Nat: No, no, no, no. Sylvia: No. Nat: The Sunday services was back in Germany. This was long before it ever came . . . Sylvia: That was the Reconstructionists. Nat: Yeah, but it was part of the Reform movement where they wanted to really break away from tradition of the Sabbath and everything else. It's just, but that's what happened here. So, I mean, I'm sure that the gathering together of the men where they elected Charlie Korrick the president, was really a gathering of men to sit down and discuss problems of the community: the breakaway of a congregation; the formation of this, you know, things like that. But it really didn't get started until when Miriam Pizer took the . . . Bobbi: You're talking about the federation? Nat: Yeah. Bobbi: Oh. Nat: When Miriam Pizer was the social service, and then she was part-time social service and part-time director, and that was too much, and then Julie Graber came in. He became a full-time person--a full-time director. I have a picture of Julie someplace. Bobbi: Gee. If you want to donate any of this stuff, the Jewish . . . Nat: Here's a picture of Julie. We had Eleanor Roosevelt at a . . . Sylvia: We got a whole thing there you can give them. Bobbi: Ah. They'd love it. Sylvia: Why don't you give them that whole great big placard? Give it to Bobbi right now. You don't need it. When you were honored by the federation. Nat: Yeah, when I was honored by the federation. Now that's Julie Graber. And there's Rose Rosenberg and there's Dorothy Herzberg and there's Eleanor Roosevelt and me. Bobbi: Oh, this is wonderful! Nat: This is a meeting in the women's division. And there's where we're discussing the Kivel home: Harry Rubenstein . . . Bobbi: Really? Nat: And I and Hirsh Kaplan. The Kivel board, and this is in '61. Here's where they broke the ground for Kivel. This is some of the Kivel balls. Bobbi: Oh, this is great. Nat: Here's some of the men that were there. You have Rabbi Jaffe, Sam Shapiro, Rabbi Krohn, Norman Mendelsohn, and there I am. So, I mean, these are some of things There's the Phoenix Jewish News--the first issue. "Silverman Voted Council; Headed Annual Meet." And that's Volume 1, Number 1, January 15, 1948. Sylvia: Well take off this picture with you and Bill. They don't need that. Bobbi: Which one? Why? Sylvia: Well, that's a fellow he went to school with in Los Angeles. That's no good. Jewish . . . Nat: That's all right. You can take the whole thing. I'd just as soon get rid of it anyhow. Here's Rabbi Krohn and the governor, Garvey? Sylvia: Garvey. He was the governor. Bobbi: Oh that's wonderful. Nat: And there I was honored by B'nai B'rith. I mean, you know, there's a . . . Bobbi: This is great. Nat: Whole lot of different things that Bobbi: We'll probably . . . Nat: Whatever you want . . . Sylvia: I think David Frazer got that together. Bobbi: Oh, really? Nat: No, it was somebody else, somebody . . . Sylvia: No, he called me. Yeah, David Frazer called me and asked me if I had more pictures. Bobbi: Great. Great. We'll probably frame them. Nat: Well, anyhow, it was . . . Remember when they gave me the Medal of Honor? Yeah. Bobbi: Well we thank you. Good. Nat: Okay. [end of transcript]