..inte: Samuel B. Schurgin ..intr: Evanne Kofman ..da: 1984 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Samuel B. Schurgin November 26, 1984 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Evanne Kofman Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Samuel B. Schurgin Interview Pages 1 Decision to come to Phoenix (1935) because of chronic illness 1- 2 Congregation Beth El founding Congregation Beth El and early years Temple Beth Israel 2- 3 How Rabbi Dow came to Phoenix Rabbi Yidel Dow Herman Lewkowitz Burton Lewkowitz 4 Split with Beth Israel Kosher meat in Phoenix Rabbi Dow Kosher butcher Mr. Katz Ethel Katz 5 Marriage in 1942 Brenda Meckler Pearl (Reiter) Cecil (Newmark) Esther Dow "Goodman Girls" (Tobe-Helen-Sophie) Sophie Citron (Helen) Pozil (husband was Ted Pozil) Aaron (& Sophie) Citron 6 Dry goods and clothing business chief Jewish businesses in 20's & 30's Allen Rosenberg Sam Rich 6- 7 Sam's Cigar Store Sam Kotzen (restaurant) 7 YMCA Abe Korrick Allen Rosenberg 7 Founder of Jewish Welfare Dr. Joseph Bank Fund and (Jewish) Federation 8 1940 first Board of Directors Charlie Korrick Herman Lewkowitz Dr. Joseph Bank Hyman "Hymieff Gold A.J. Stern 9 Gold's Gymnasium (1984) Hanny s Store Korricks 1 9 Boston Store Ed Korrick 10 Daughter of Abe Korrick (Patricia Korrick) Lewkowitz Hyman Gold 10 Arizona Furniture Company (Tucson AZ) Lordsburg, AZ Lehman family Marshall Lehman 10 Lehman Family Stores (clothing); Lordsburg, Duncan, Winslow AZ 10 Korricks store - salesman for them 11 R.M. Elias wholesalers Copland Wholesale (Phillip Copland) Cox Notions Wholesaler (Cox-Hash) 11 1935-1940 Schurgin as salesman for Korricks; traveled state Dr. Joseph Bank 11 Dreyer Brothers in Prescott Yuma, Arizona Giss family 12 Ajo, Arizona - dry goods store Kliban family Phelps Dodge in Ajo Bisbee, AZ; Warren, AZ Parker, AZ; Kingman, AZ; Ashfork 12 Flagstaff Jewish leader Ben Fine 13 Navajo Reservation Tuba City; Babbitt Bros. Stores 13 Flagstaff - Oraibe - Moenkopi King's Canyon - Cayenta 13 Hubbell Trading Post Indian wells, AZ Gallup, New Mexico 14 Holbrook, AZ; A & B Schuster Co. Schuster family 14 White River, AZ (headquarters Apache Indian Reservation), McNary 14-15 Hazards of car travel Clifton, AZ; Springerville; "The Blue" (Blue Mountains) Luna, New Mexico Silver City, New Mexico Clifton, AZ Given Bros. Store Harry Rabinowitz Morenci, AZ 16 River flooding on road Black Canyon Highway 2 17 Blythe, CA Yuma, AZ; Quartzite, AZ; Highway 87 17 Colorado River flooding over road Ripley, CA 18 Korricks Store Early manager of Korricks John Irvine Kingman; Gallup; Douglas; Yuma, AZ 18 Salesman who succeeded Schurgin Max Fisher 18-19 General Motors Corp. 19 Delco Appliance Division 19 REA (Rural Electrification Administration) brought electricity (AC) to the farmers 19 Salt River Project 19-20 Arizona Power & Light Co. Schurgin's first self-owned business; 1940 Charles Korrick 20 Kohler Co. AC current generators 21 Schurgin becomes first distributor of fluorescent lighting in AZ (assembled on units) 21 World War II Enlisting in Armed Services 1942 Max Fisher Bernie Eglyn 22 First draftee in state of AZ for WWII Lenno Off 22 El Paso, Texas 23 Cheyenne, Wyoming Mills Hotel in Phoenix Charles Korrick Abe Korrick 24 Safford, AZ; Avondale, AZ Rita (Plotkin) Segal 24 Restart fluorescent light business 1946 John Levy Burroughs David Kipnis 26 O'Malley's store 4th Avenue and Madison in Phoenix "The Hub" clothing store Sol Mintz 27 Sam's Cigar Store Sam Kotzen 3 David Bush (Joe) Fuchs Belle Bush 27 Wickenburg, AZ Bernie Eglyn Max Fisher 27-28 While in service - Cheyenne, Wyoming Rabbi Krash Dasha Todd 28 Stationed in Granite City, Illinois; conducting Jewish services (Schurgin) Rabbi Schectman 29 Yeshiva University (New York City) "Talmudical Academy" as a high school 31 B'nai Brith Lodge #960 in Phoenix (Herman Lewkowitz Lodge) (Morris) Gerst Herman Lewkowitz 31 Angelus Furniture Store (Gerst family) 32 Palo Verde Toastmasters Club in Phoenix Donofrio 33 Boy Scout Troop #31; original Jewish Boy Scout troop started in 1928 First AZA Chapter in AZ; first president of this AZA chapter Albert Gross Burton Lewkowitz 34 Ner Tamid Award 34 Marriage of Schurgin in Detroit 34-35 Beth El Congregation Newmark family Reiter family 35 Yom Kippur 1935 N'ila Service conducted by Rabbi Dow Schurgin First Beth El Hebrew school teacher Secretary of Beth El Lou Samuels Esther Fireman 36 Sam's Cigar Store Diamond's (The Boston Store) Lou Samuels Samuels family name Ilitsky "Ilitsky" family 37 Douglas, AZ Esther Fireman Bess Oseran 4 37 Levy's Department Store; Douglas, AZ Levy family 37 Bisbee, AZ; Naco, AZ Reiter family 37-38 Beth Israel - Beth El split Pearl & Cecil Newmark Phil Newmark 38 Some of first families who Sol Mintz formed Beth El Morris Meckler Reiter family Newmark family 39 President of Beth El Morris Meckler Brenda Heckler 39 1952 Schurgin President of Beth El 39-40 University of Tudaism (part of Conservative movement) 40 Offices Schurgin has held in national Conservative movement 40 Camp Ramah Ben & Ann Goor Stephanie Multer Goor Joel Goor 41-42 Building of University of Judaism building in Los Angeles on Mulholland Drive 42 Brandeis University not a "Jewish" university in Schurgin's opinion 43 Yeshiva University in LA 43 Phoenix luncheon honoring persons connected with University of Judaism Ann Schubert 43 E.F. Hutton Co. Gordon Schubert 43-44 First Jewish Community Center Sam Hoffman building on Camelback Road 44 Jewish Federation Jewish Community Center; nonsectarian 45 Jewish Family Services; non-sectarian Kivel; non-sectarian 46-47 Local Jewish Federation fund raising 47 Hebrew Academy in Phoenix Valley Jewish Day School 47 Elderhostel Program 48 1983 Elderhostel Program in Israel 5 Goldsmith family 49 University of Arizona, Arizona State and Grand Canyon College participate in Elderhostel Programs 49-51 University of Judaism in Los Angeles and Elderhostel Program 52-53 Move to Denver, Colorado due to illness 54-55 Hebrew Men's Club original founder Cecil Newmark Saul & Reva Lebeau 55 Founder of Beth El Gordon 55 Social activities of Hebrew Men's Club Esther Fireman 55-56 Riverside Park Harry Rosenzweig Newmark family Saul Lebeau 57 Beth El; first Yom Kippur; Rabbi Dow N'ila Service First rabbi Rabbi Barack 58 Services at Shrine Auditorium; North High School; the Ramada 58-59 Schurgin was the cantor and sometimes acting rabbi 59 Building fund drive Smith family Charlie Korrick Ike Diamond 61 Hub Clothing Store The Boston Store Whitehouse Mercantile Company Hyman Gold David Skomer 62 Globe Furniture Store Horowitz Jewish image Meckler Harry _______ Spitalny family 63 No anti-Semitism; Phoenix a conglomerate Phoenix Country Club Herman Lewkowitz Charlie Korrick Eddie Korrick 64 Indian reservation experiences Harry Kliban Hubbell Trading Post 65 Phelps Dodge Mercantile Indian trading posts 6 66 Babbitt Mercantile Company 67 Sold Indian blankets 68 Hebrew Academy Dr. Zinn Arizona Torah High School Rabbi David Rebibo 69 Hebrew high school Rabbi Kane Torah U'mesorah Organization Rabbi Camen Rabbi Simel Rabbi Winter 69 Teacher at Arizona Torah Rabbi Jacobs High School 70 Valley Jewish Day School 70-71 University of Judaism and Conservative Jewish Movement 72-73 Phoenix Chamber of Commerce 73 Valley of the Sun Electrical League orig. Wholesale Electrical Association National Association of Electrical Distributors __________ AZ Governor Fannin 74-75 Operation Identification 76 AZ Independent Businessman's Association Founder of above Jim Soudriette 77 AZ Department of Economic Security Advisory Board Gov. Wesley Bolin 78 The "Lighthouse" lighting Allen Rosenberg fixture company Lighting laboratory - commercial lighting display 79 AMFAC purchases Schurgin's electrical business Art Goldhagen 79-80 Miller Lighting Co. Abe Miller 80 Mrs. Schurgin always was his secretary and office manager 81 Globe, AZ Lantin family Miami, AZ Safford, AZ Belman family Horwitz family Krupp family Lehman family 82 Jewish families in small Lishinsky family Arizona towns went to Phoenix Schuster family and Tucson for high holidays Ben Fine Charlie Korrick 83 Tombstone, AZ Rosen family Nogales, AZ Capin family Bracker family Rochlin family Levy family Samuel Schurgin Interview This is Evanne Kofman. I'm interviewing for the Arizona Jewish Historical Society. I'm in the offices of Milsam. That's at 1830 East Indian School Road in Phoenix and I'm going to interview and talk with Sam Schurgin today. The date is November the 26th, 1984. KOFMAN: Sam, you tell me that you came to Phoenix alone in 1935? SCHURGIN: That's correct, Evanne. KOFMAN: What prompted your decision to come to Phoenix all by yourself at that time? SCHURGIN: Well, there's always been a saying that prior to World War II anybody that came to Arizona was either sick or crazy. Since I've never been accused of being sick it must be the first. But, I had gone first to Denver, Colorado in 1929 and lived in Denver for a year until 1930 and became very ill and had to go back to New York and then went to Philadelphia for further treatment. I came out to Arizona in 1935 for my health. I was quite ill, and shall I say what my illness was? KOFMAN: Certainly. SCHURGIN: I had what they call chronic bronchiectasis. While it was not a guarantee of death as TB or some other diseases -(Interruption.) SCHURGIN: When I came out in 1935 Beth El was already in existence. There were two synagogues; Beth Israel and Beth El. Beth El had been founded in 1930. It was a spinoff of Temple Beth Israel because originally Temple Beth Israel was founded as a citywide synagogue of all denominations. Then in 1930 I believe Temple Beth Israel hired a Reform rabbi and there were about 12 families that broke away from Temple Beth Israel and founded Congregation Beth El. Congregation Beth El at that time was on the southwest corner of Fillmore and 4th Street. It was a converted old church; very small building with a small classroom in the rear. We had no central heating, no central cooling. In fact, we didn't have any cooling. We did have a potbelly stove that we used to feed with coal. Very interesting how these families stuck to their principle religion. Going back a little further. The leader who broke away from Temple Beth Israel in 1930 was Rabbi Dow, Yidel Dow. His daughter lives in Los Angeles; I can give you her name. She married and remarried. She congratulated me on the story that I told about the original founding of Beth El because I had given her father the credit for the founding of Congregation Beth El. KOFMAN: Do you remember what her name is? SCHURGIN: Yes, I have a record of it. KOFMAN: Oh, you have it written down? SCHURGIN: Yes, I have a record of it. In fact, would you like it on the tape? KOFMAN: Certainly. SCHURGIN: She was old enough at the time to know about the break-off. Let me see, she might have been let's say 16 or 17 at the time so she would know the real history, the early history as a teenager and so on. KOFMAN: That would probably be very interesting. SCHURGIN: She would be extremely interesting to talk to because her father was Rabbi Dow, who was not an ordained rabbi but we gave him the honorary title of Rabbi Dow. KOFMAN: How did they find him? SCHURGIN: Well, it's very interesting. Believe it or not, Herman Lewkowitz, when Burton was born, needed a mohel to circumcise Burton. Believe it or not, Herman brought Rabbi Dow in from El Paso. Rabbi Dow was then in El Paso. Let me think a little. You better ask Burton but it seems to me it was 1920 or even earlier, I don't know. But you might check with Burton Lewkowitz. So Rabbi Dow's first trip was on a wagon from Maricopa to Phoenix because the railroad at that time had not stretched to Phoenix yet. Rabbi Dow himself told me this story. He left El Paso by train and traveled from Maricopa, which was the closest point to Phoenix by wagon and circumcised Burton Lewkowitz. So that's the old history. In fact, he trained Burton for his Bar Mitzvah again later when he was leader of Beth El. So Burton can give you some very interesting stories about the early history. Burton should be able to give you some very interesting stories, especially about Rabbi Dow because he loved Rabbi Dow. In fact, most of the people at Beth Israel loved Rabbi Dow because he was their spiritual leader before they hired a Reform rabbi. Herman was responsible for bringing Rabbi Dow to Phoenix to become the spiritual leader of Beth Israel at that time, which was non-denominational. KOFMAN: Why did Beth Israel not keep Rabbi Dow? SCHURGIN: It was his choice. He couldn't stand Beth Israel going Reform and hiring a Reform rabbi, so he was the leader who was breaking away from Beth Israel. KOFMAN: I see. SCHURGIN: He was a real Orthodox old-time gentleman. Believe it or not, in those days we had fresh meat in Phoenix. Of course, he used to go to the slaughterhouse and slaughter the beef in the slaughterhouse in those days. Today we don't even have any fresh beef in Phoenix. We have to import it either from Denver or from Los Angeles. But in those days we had fresh chickens and fresh beef slaughtered by Rabbi Dow. KOFMAN: Now, where did you pick this meat up? SCHURGIN: He worked for a butcher. I don't remember the butcher's name, but later on the early butcher was Mr. Katz. His daughter, Ethel Katz, still lives in Phoenix. She can probably give you some interesting stories about Rabbi Dow and the early history of Phoenix and the kosher meat and the kosher situation in the early days of Phoenix. KOFMAN: Now, this would have been around 1930? SCHURGIN: Earlier than that. Rabbi Dow came here I believe in 1920. KOFMAN: Was this the same Katz family that had the delicatessen on Central Avenue? SCHURGIN: No, no relation whatsoever. They came much later. KOFMAN: You mentioned to me that you had come out here in 1935. SCHURGIN: Yes. KOFMAN: Were you already married at that time? SCHURGIN: No, I was single. I didn't get married until 1944 during World War II. As you know, there were very few young men and very few young girls in those days. I can remember how few there were when I even dated Brenda Meckler, who was much older than I but I remember going out on a date with her many, many years ago. KOFMAN: Where did you go? SCHURGIN: I don't remember. There were very few young, eligible youngsters, boys and girls. I remember that. I remember dating some girls who came here from Chicago. Pearl, I remember was betrothed or engaged to Cecil. Esther Dow was one of the few eligible young girls and she was much younger. I'm trying to remember some names. KOFMAN: How about the Goodman girls? SCHURGIN: There were four Goodman girls. They were all either married or older or betrothed. Toby I think was the only single one in those days. When I came here, Toby was probably the only one of the four girls who was not married. KOFMAN: Toby Citron now? SCHURGIN: Yes. Of course, one was Pozil and then he passed away. And the other one, they had a clothing store on Jefferson. KOFMAN: That's Aaron and Sophie. SCHURGIN: That's right, Aaron and Sophie, that's right. Who was the fourth one now? Well, you can get that information from the Pozils or from Toby or anyone. They can give you further details on that. In those days the Jewish population was mainly controlled in the central core of Phoenix. Most of them were either in the dry goods business or the clothing business. I can remember Allen Rosenberg coming to Phoenix in 1935 and opening up the Thrifty Drug Store. Sam Rich worked for Allen Rosenberg and then went into his own drug store business. In those days the center of attraction and the only restaurant and the best restaurant in the city was Sam's Cigar Store. Sam's Cigar Store had a luncheon counter where most of the Jewish people in town congregated for lunch. KOFMAN: Now, was this Sam Rich or another Sam? SCHURGIN: No, this was Sam Kotzen. KOFMAN: Kotzen? SCHURGIN: K-o-t-z-e-n. KOFMAN: K-o-t-z-e-n. SCHURGIN: His Cigar Store was the central focal point for almost all of the Jewish people in Phoenix. KOFMAN: Where was that located? SCHURGIN: That was located on 1st Avenue between Monroe and Adams Street. It was very popular. They served excellent food. In fact, his chef when he moved (they moved to Sunnyslope), his chef opened up his own restaurant on 3rd Avenue and McDowell. I'm trying to remember the man's name. You'll get that information from somebody else, I'm sure. KOFMAN: Was his chef Jewish also? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. Excellent cook, excellent cook, wonderful Jewish meals. KOFMAN: That's very interesting. SCHURGIN: Isn't that interesting? KOFMAN: No one else has mentioned it that I know of so if you think of the name of this chef later. SCHURGIN: Oh, sure. Morris is his first name. I can't remember his last name but someone else will think about it for you. KOFMAN: We'll find it. SCHURGIN: You'll find it, I'm sure in your archives. That was really the central gathering place for almost everyone who worked in the downtown area. At that time the YMCA was very, very popular. We had no Jewish community center and most of the Jewish people who were athletic, were interested in physical fitness, belonged to the Y. KOFMAN: That' s very interesting. You never had any trouble with discrimination? You were always welcome in there? SCHURGIN: There never was. The YMCA always welcomed Jews. In fact, they never even made you sign anything pertaining to Christianity or anything else. As a matter of fact, I think Abe Korrick was on the board of directors of the YMCA for many, many years. You might mention that if you want. Abe Korrick was active in the YMCA for many, many years. I mentioned Allen Rosenberg before for another reason. There was a doctor in town by the name of Dr. Joseph Bank. History may not know this but he is the man responsible for the founding of the Jewish Welfare Fund and for what is now called the Federation today. He is the man who pushed the idea through and started it. Allen Rosenberg and I were on the original board of directors of the first Jewish Federation in the city of Phoenix. This is in 1940. KOFMAN: 1940? SCHURGIN: Right. KOFMAN: Do you remember any of the other members of that board? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes, but they're all passed away. KOFMAN: I'd like to know some of the names if you can tell me. SCHURGIN: Well, Charlie Korrick of course. Herman Lewkowitz, all the old timers. They're all passed away now. They were all on the board at that particular time when we founded the first Jewish Foundation. Dr. Joseph Bank should get all the credit because prior to his founding the Federation Hymie Gold, who ran the White House Department Store, was the dispenser of charity in the city of Phoenix. Hyman Gold was a tough old cookie. He rarely gave out a quarter, which was a lot of money in those days for the Jewish people that were stranded in Phoenix. He preferred that they keep going on to Los Angeles or back to El Paso. So he gave them very, very little money to stay in the city. He handed out not dollars but quarters thinking that that was a lot of money in those days. KOFMAN: He was not anxious to see the Jewish community grow or he was only anxious to see people come in who were already people of means? SCHURGIN: Yes. He probably resented most of the indigents coming to Phoenix for their health because he was a real old timer. His daughter, by the way, is still alive today. KOFMAN: What is her name? SCHURGIN: A. J. Stern was married to one of the daughters of Hymie Gold. There are two daughters that Hymie Gold had and his son, Hymie Gold's son, runs Gold's Gymnasium. I think you should contact him. He can tell you some very interesting stories about the early days. And the two daughters of Hymie Gold because their father at that time was, as I said, the dispenser of all the charity in the city of Phoenix. KOFMAN: This is wonderful, Sam. This is wonderful. SCHURGIN: I don't know whether you I ve ever heard the name of the son just died also -- had a little men's clothing store on 3rd Street and Washington. The name of the men's store is still alive today. They had stores in Park Central. KOFMAN: Hanny's? SCHURGIN: No. Not Hanny's. Hanny's was run by a former man who came from Cuba. What was his name again? Oh, you'll get that from somebody else. KOFMAN: Why don't I get it from you? SCHURGIN: I can't remember names. You'll have to forgive me. My memory is going back a long way. KOFMAN: You were looking for the name of another clothing store. SCHURGIN: Yes. Of course, there was Korricks and the Boston Store. You can contact the Diamond family or the Korrick family. Eddie Korrick I'm sure you know. Eddie can give you a lot of information. Eddie has a sister who lives in Los Angeles who can probably help you a little bit also Of course, Mrs. Lewkowitz was Abe's daughter so she can probably help you quite a bit. KOFMAN: You were looking for the name of another clothing store. SCHURGIN: Yes, I'll think about it in a few minutes. Hyman Gold was a real old timer who had two brothers in Tucson, Arizona. One owned the biggest furniture store in Tucson, Arizona Furniture Company, was Hyman Gold's brother. The other Gold had a dry goods store on Myers Street in Tucson and she married one of the Lehmans who ran a men's clothing store in Lordsburg. She's still alive, I'm sure. KOFMAN: Marshall Lehman was the first chairman of the board of the Historical Society. SCHURGIN: Right. Marshall Lehman's father I believe married the Gold girl from Tucson and they had a store in Lordsburg. The Lehman family was quite large. I used to call on them. They had a store in Lordsburg, they had a store in Duncan, they had a store in Winslow, all men's clothing stores. Maybe one or two others. In those days I used to work for Korricks. I used to travel the whole state of Arizona. KOFMAN: You were a sales representative? SCHURGIN: Well, I originally started in the basement as a clerk and then graduated up to become the outside salesman for Korricks. Many people don't know this but Korricks had a real big wholesale department in dry goods. So levis, shoes, work shirts, work pants -- in fact at one time they were the only wholesale house. Then, of course, R. M. Elias came in and Copland Wholesale came in. But Korricks was probably the largest and the only wholesaler of dry goods. Wait a minute, there was another company called Cox; a notions wholesaler. But they were one of the few wholesalers of dry goods and clothing. Cox later on became Cox-Hash. Elias and of course Copland came in later. I started in Phoenix with Korricks in 1935 and traveled the state until the end of 1940 when I went into my own business. When Dr. Bank started, and even before Dr. Bank started the Federation, he appointed me to contact all the Jewish people outside of Phoenix, Arizona to see what they could contribute towards the Federation or towards the poor in Israel and so on. That's how I came to know the Mallins. I used to go to Prescott and I met the Mallin family in Prescott. I used to have dinners for the Jewish people in Prescott. The oldest family in Prescott at that time was Dreyer, the Dreyer brothers, two brothers. KOFMAN: Is that D-r -- SCHURGIN: D-r-e-y-e-r; Dreyer brothers. They owned a big general store and a grocery store on Whiskey Row. There were some other Jewish people in Prescott who were at the hospital, who were doctors at the Veterans Hospital. I'm trying to remember some of the other families. But that wasn't the only city I used to go to. Traveling around the state to collect money for the Federation brought me to Yuma, where I contacted the Giss family. KOFMAN: Is that G-i SCHURGIN: G-i-s-s. There was another Jewish family in Yuma. I used to go to Ajo, Arizona. There was a man by the name of Kliban, K-1-i-b-a-n, who had the only dry goods store in competition with the Phelps Dodge mercantile Company in Ajo. They allowed him to operate. They wanted one competitor in each one of their cities. They were all owned by Phelps Dodge. I'm mentioning Bisbee, Arizona which was -- although Warren, Arizona also -- there were some Jewish merchants there also in Bisbee. Staying on the west part of Arizona I couldn't find any Jewish people in Parker. In Kingman there was one Jewish family. In Ashfork there was one Jewish family. Flagstaff had a very famous Jewish man by the name of Ben Fine, F-i-n-e, who ran a ladies ready-to-wear. He was the Jewish leader in Flagstaff and the dispenser of charities in Flagstaff for the Jewish people who got stranded there on the way coming east or west. He and I had a lot in common at that time. KOFMAN: Do you remember the names of the Jewish families like in Ashfork or anywhere? SCHURGIN: No, they're all gone. KOFMAN: And they all had stores? SCHURGIN: They all had dry good stores or mens' clothing stores or something and it was part of my job to collect money for them as well as working for Korricks and trying to get business from them. I could tell some interesting stories about other things. I traveled the Navajo reservation in those days. KOFMAN: That would be interesting. SCHURGIN: But it's not Jewishly inclined. KOFMAN: But that's still very interesting. SCHURGIN: But I remember traveling from Flagstaff and going into Tuba City and calling on the Babbitt Brothers. I used to call on Babbitt Brothers in Flagstaff also. I started in Tuba City and worked my way through oraibe, Moenkopi, King's Canyon, Cayenta. In those days there wasn't a single paved road on the reservation. KOFMAN: How did you travel? SCHURGIN: Oh, by car. I've gotten stuck many, many a time in the sand. I remember a group of Navajos coming up once when I was stuck in the sand and I couldn't dig my way out. By the way, I used to travel with a shovel and with an ax and with a thermos bottle of milk and some crackers and cheese in my car all the time. Because once I entered that reservation at Tuba City I never knew where I would stay or sleep the next time there was a hotel in Tuba. I used to sleep in Oraibe at the Indian hospital. There was no hotel in Oraibe. I used to call on that famous Hubbell Department Store -- Hubbell Trading Post. KOFMAN: I was just there about two months ago. SCHURGIN: Really. Well, they were one of my customers in the late 30's and I called on all of the union traders at Indian Wells and Keens. I'd come out at Gallup, it would take me a whole week to travel from Tuba City, leaving Flagstaff, entering at Tuba City and coming out at Gallup, New Mexico. I had accounts in Gallup. By the way, coming back from Gallup there were two or three Jewish families in Holbrook. There was the A & B Schuster Company which was a Jewish company originally. They had a man from Tucson, I'm trying to remember his name, it started with an L, who was their general manager. But there were a number of Schusters still alive and they had a branch in White River, Arizona which at that time was the headquarters of the Apache tribe. I used to travel to White River and to McNary. McNary had a big lumber mill and they had a big department store for their employees, who were mostly black. Believe it or not, as cold as it was in McNary for some reason or another he hired black people to work in the mills and to work in the forests. KOFMAN: That's interesting. SCHURGIN: They had their own railroad running from McNary all the way over to Holbrook to haul their logs out, but that was an interesting situation up at McNary. White River of course had a beautiful little hotel with steam heat which is unusual. You couldn't find steam heat in many, many places. Of course none of the roads were paved in those days. Experiences - I could tell you a million experiences. KOFMAN: I'd love to hear a couple. I was just thinking about the dust storms that we get. You must have been caught in some. SCHURGIN: Not only dust storms, but I can remember rain pouring down so heavily -- I remember trying to get from Clifton back to Springerville across "The Blue". We call that "The Blue" now. KOFMAN: What is "the Blue"? SCHURGIN: "The Blue" is a ridge called the Blue Mountains from Clifton to Springerville. At one time it was impassable but in those days the state hacked a road through, but it was closed during the winter. It was 9,500 to 10,000 feet high. Once the snow started to fall you couldn't get through. It would be impossible. So I had to make a detour into a place called Luna, New Mexico and Silver City, New Mexico, leaving Clifton and Morenci. By the way, there was a Jewish family in Clifton also who had a shoe store - Harry Rabinowitz. He managed Given Brothers here. His widow is still alive. Harry Rabinowitz was born in Clifton, Arizona. Maybe not many people know that. KOFMAN: I remember them well. SCHURGIN: Do you? Is Rena still alive? KOFMAN: No, I don't believe so. SCHURGIN: She passed away. Well, anyway, Harry was born in Clifton and I used to call on a Jewish merchant in Clifton and on the Given Brothers store in Clifton, which was managed by a Jewish man. Morenci of course was a company town and that was Phelps Dodge. Those were very interesting experiences. I can remember one time when the river overflowed between Luna and Silver city and I had to get across. Somebody had put 2 by 12 planks down across a river - 2 by 12. And there I was wanting to get back to Springerville. It was snowing up on top of "The Blue' and I couldn't go through Arizona. I had to detour into New Mexico. I think it took me eight hours to go from Clifton to Springerville because of the weather. KOFMAN: Were you driving just a regular car or a truck? SCHURGIN: Regular car. I was working for Korricks and it was a regular car. KOFMAN: What kind of car was that, do you remember? SCHURGIN: I had a Ford, 1935 Ford. I started originally with a Model A. Then I graduated to a '35 Ford. Crossing on two 2 by 12 planks was among the most dangerous things I've ever done in my life. I drove with one door open so I could fall down into the river in case something happened. I turned my car over once on the Black Canyon Highway before they ever built this beautiful freeway that we have. In those days the Black Canyon Highway was a very dangerous road, all dirt from Flagstaff to Phoenix, none of it paved. KOFMAN: This was the 30's again? SCHURGIN: Yes, in the 30's. Traveling in the 30's, there were very few paved roads. Everything was dirt. I came around the side of a mountain too fast and I rolled my car over. Fortunately the car landed right side up and I was hurt but not hurt badly enough. With my top squashed down I drove back into Phoenix. So that was another interesting experience. One other experience I had was I used to go to Blythe, California for Korricks, selling in Blythe. We had one Jewish customer in Blythe in the dry goods business. I wanted to get to Yuma. Rather than go back to Quartzsite and take Highway 87 down to Yuma, on the map I saw there was a dirt road running from Blythe down to Yuma on the California side, which would have been all right except at that time the Colorado River flooded and flooded the dirt road. I didn't realize it, I was traveling rather fast and before I knew it that dirt road became a quagmire and my car sunk down to the window top. I had to climb out the side of the window to get on top of my car to get out of my car. So my car was sunk down at least four feet into the river, which used to be a road. KOFMAN: Did someone find you? SCHURGIN: No, what happened was a car came along and saw that I was stuck, so I sent him back to Blythe to pick up a tow truck to pull my car out of the river. of course, very few people knew about the dirt road or traveled it. I was lucky that somebody came along very soon afterwards and found me. I'm trying to remember the name of the city that was at that time -- Ripley, California was south below Blythe and that was the dirt road that went back to Yuma, of course on the California side. KOFMAN: Did you limit your traveling during the summer or did the hot weather -- SCHURGIN: No, I was single in those days and very ambitious. Korricks had never had a salesman go to many of these places. Never had a man on the Indian reservation. The salesman that I succeeded was a man by the name of John Irvine who was the salesman for Korricks in those days. Nice man, but rather elderly and he didn't want to travel too far. So he confined all of his activities to the Valley, selling to the stores here in the Valley. I was ambitious and I wanted to open up all these new accounts. I used to go to Kingman on the west, as far as Gallup on the east and Douglas on the east, as far as Yuma on the west. I opened up many, many new accounts for Korricks in those days. By the way, the salesman that succeeded me at Korricks was a boy by the name of Max Fisher. KOFMAN: Is that F-i-s -- SCHURGIN: F-i-s-h-e-r. I think his wife still lives here. she was married to the Lad to Dad man, whatever his name is. They were married before the war, sure. You might check with her. KOFMAN: Do you remember her first name? SCHURGIN: (Nodded no.) Anyway, this interesting story about Max Fisher is that I trained him for six months to take my place and then I quit Charlie (Korrick) to go into the electrical business, but that's another story. At that time -- KOFMAN: Well, how did you decide to do this? SCHURGIN: Well, I saw an ad in the newspaper that they were looking for a distributor for the General Motors Corporation at the Delco Appliance Division. Little did I know that it was a dying business, this particular distributorship. Why? Because Delco Motors at that time never made AC systems, they only made direct current systems for the farmers and for the cattle people who wanted their own electricity. In those days Delco was the biggest one in the business with 32 volt systems direct current. Little did I know that that was a dying business when I went into it. The REA, Rural Electrification Administration, was founded by the government and they were the ones who brought electricity to the farmer, no matter how far he was out he could get electricity, AC, alternating current. So why should he buy a direct current plant when you had to buy a special motor for your refrigerator, a special motor for your freezer or whatever it is that you had. It was all direct current. In fact, in those days the Salt River Project was all direct current, 25 cycle electricity or direct current. 25 cycle was AC, but they had either DC current or 25 cycle before REA came in and before 110 volt became the standard in the electrical business. So I didn't know at that time that I was taking on a distributorship that eventually would go broke and that would put me out of business in a short time. But seeing the handwriting on the wall -- I was traveling in those days all across the state of Arizona checking on the power plants. That's how I got the name Arizona Power and Light Company. I sold electrical generating systems made by Delco of the General Motors division. KOFMAN: This was when you did take this distributorship? SCHURGIN: Yes. KOFMAN: What year about was that? SCHURGIN: 1940. The end of 1940 I started my own business. Charlie Korrick and I were so close, he treated me like a son, that he even went to the bank -- I didn't have enough money to buy the distributorship -- and signed a note for me to leave him to go into my own business. Show's you the kind of man Charlie Korrick was and what he thought of me. He had a special feeling for me, I don't know why. KOFMAN: He was very well liked, I know. SCHURGIN: Well, I always took off the Jewish holidays. He never complained about that. In fact, he admired me for it. The second day of Rosh Hashonah and Passover and Sukkoth. I always took off the Jewish holidays. I was quite religious in those days. Being single and traveling all over the state, I had some beautiful experiences. KOFMAN: So you were still single when you bought this distributorship? SCHURGIN: Oh yes. And I traveled the whole state of Arizona repairing power plants and trying to sell new ones. But I was in a losing business. I was in a dying business. There was a company called Kohler who was smarter than General Motors. They started to make AC, alternating current, generators and they took away many of my customers because they had 110 volt current AC and I was trying to sell 32 Volt DC. But seeing the handwriting on the wall I switched my business to a new industry called fluorescent lighting. I became the first distributor of fluorescent lighting in the state of Arizona. In fact, it was so new that I had to distribute and assemble my own units, my own fluorescent fixtures. I had to buy the transformers from someplace else and the sockets and the bulbs and assemble them and put them together in Phoenix, Arizona. KOFMAN: That's interesting to me. How did you get the know-how to do this? Here you were selling dry goods and now you're assembling fluorescent lights. SCHURGIN: An interesting question. When I bought this distributorship I didn't know the difference between an electrical switch or a receptacle or a light bulb. I didn't know the difference. It's just that I was intrigued by the fact that I was going to be a distributor for the General Motors Corporation. So that was the reason why. I thought I was going to enter into something tremendous and become something big. Instead I entered into a dying business. So that's how I started in fluorescent lighting. Of course, World War II came along and conditions got pretty tough. There were so few Jews in the city of Phoenix and so few single Jews. Many of us felt guilty. So three Jewish boys enlisted in World War II on the same day, in 1942. KOFMAN: Now, who was this? SCHURGIN: Max Fisher, who took my place at Korricks and at that time a boy by the name of Bernie Eglyn E-g-1-y-n. Bernie started out as a clerk in Korricks and became the personnel manager and even became vice president of Korricks. He went back to Korricks after the war. He and I and Max Fisher were the first Jewish enlistees in the state of Arizona in World War II in 1942. However, we had a stock clerk in Korricks who worked for me and for the wholesale department whose name was Lenno Off, 0-f-f, Lenno Off, 0-f-f. KOFMAN: And it's Lenno? SCHURGIN: Lenno was his first name. KOFMAN: L-e-n-o? SCHURGIN: L-e-n-n-o. Lenno. He was the first draftee in the state of Arizona in 1941. He had the distinction of being the first draftee in the state of Arizona. Unfortunately, he was also the first one to die six months later. Lenno Off. And he was a stock clerk in the wholesale department of Korricks whose family and he came from El Paso, Texas, an old time family in Texas. KOFMAN: Were you overseas then? SCHURGIN: No, never got overseas. I enlisted in the Army and I was in for four years, never went overseas. KOFMAN: You stayed in Arizona or -- SCHURGIN: No, never was stationed in Arizona. Believe it or not, when we enlisted El Paso, Texas at that time was the headquarters of the (unintelligible] of Arizona. They later switched it to California. So we had to go from Phoenix, we were sworn in in Phoenix, then had to go to El Paso, Texas to get our uniforms. Unfortunately, we had to be sworn in again and take an IQ again. We had to take it twice because they were in a transition stage. From El Paso, Texas we were shipped up to Cheyenne, Wyoming. KOFMAN: But the three of you kind of stayed together in one unit? SCHURGIN: No, we were all separated. KOFMAN: What happened to your fluorescent light business? SCHURGIN: Oh, I closed it. KOFMAN: You just closed it down. SCHURGIN: And Charlie Korrick thought so much of me, at that time he owned a hotel on 3rd Avenue and Washington Street called the Mills Hotel, M-i-l-l-s. It was the northeast corner of Washington and 3rd Avenue. He owned that building. He said to me, "Sam, take all your stuff, take all your pictures and all your lamps and all your office equipment and store it in my basement", which I did. For four years I had all my electrical equipment stored in Charlie Korrick's basement. KOFMAN: He was a wonderful man. SCHURGIN: A great man. I have nothing but the highest regard for Charlie. He was the outstanding leader in the city of Phoenix, the outstanding charity giver. People didn't think he was charitable but I knew better. Of course, he was the main Jew in the state of Arizona as far as I could tell. KOFMAN: Did you see very much of his brother, Abe? SCHURGIN: No. Abe and I never got along together for a number of reasons. First of all, Abe had no jurisdiction over me. I reported directly to Charlie as the outside wholesale salesman. In those days, if you remember, nylon stockings were very scarce for women. You could buy any woman with a pair of nylon stockings in those days. I used to call on these small stores in small towns, in Safford and Avondale, and they begged me to get them some nylons. What I used to do is behind Abe's back I used to go to the retail department and steal -- I shouldn't say steal -- but take nylons away from their department and ship it to my customers throughout the state of Arizona. He caught me many, many times doing things like this. He always told Charlie, "Fire that man. I got to get rid of him. He's ruining my business." He said, "You must get rid of him." He tried to get me fired many, many times. Charlie would never let him fire me. KOFMAN: Think of all those grateful ladies in those small Arizona towns who got nylons because of you. SCHURGIN: In fact, Rita Segal's mother when they had their ladies store I used to sell them nylon stockings taken from Abe Korricks retail department. She'll tell you that story also. Very interesting story. KOFMAN: So after the war you came back to Phoenix. Did you reopen the fluorescent light business? SCHURGIN: Yes. I started again in 1946. I came back in July of 1946 and had to start all over again. Fortunately, I had all my office equipment stored. You couldn't buy a typewriter, you couldn't buy a desk, you couldn't get anything in those days. Cars were impossible to buy. I had a brand-new car when I went in the Army. I had a '41 Chevy which, when I thought I was going overseas I authorized my lawyer, John Levy --there's a name you ought to look up. His children are all Catholics. John Levy married a Catholic woman and he has a son who is in the Maricopa County Attorney Department. And he had two daughters. one of them I think lives in Mesa. John Levy was one of the first attorneys in the state of Arizona. He was my lawyer at that time. He stored my car for me, but then persuaded me to sell it so when I came out of the service I didn't even have a car to start with. I had to buy a truck. KOFMAN: Where did you find the truck? SCHURGIN: That was the problem. What happened was I found an automobile which was converted to a pickup truck. Half of the car was cut off and sides were put on the other half. Of course I couldn't get a store to rent. There were no stores. I rented a secondhand store for a month or so, but then I was standing in line in an auction and another Jewish boy was standing in back of me at the same auction. I was telling him about how much trouble I was having trying to find a location, a store to open up my business in 1946. He says, "Sam", he says, "I'm building a new building on South Central Avenue. I'd love to have you as a tenant." And the general contractor was Mr. Buros, whose two sons are alive today. No, only one son, one Buros died. But Mr. Buros, the old man Buros. KOFMAN: What was his first name? SCHURGIN: You'll have to ask his son. A lot of people will tell you. This was his first job in the city of Phoenix building a store building, mind you 50 by 100, that's 5,000 square feet, divided in half for a man by the name of David Kipnis, K-i-p-n-i-s, whom you know, I'm sure. Dave Kipnis started out on South Central Avenue in the plating business in a store 25 by 50 and rented me the other half of the store 25 by 50. KOFMAN: How far south on Central was it? SCHURGIN: 608 South Central. He said he didn't need a store any bigger than 25 by 50 to start a business. He had so little vision that today he owns two square blocks in his business on South Central Avenue - two square blocks, that's how big his business got. He resented the fact that I moved out at that time, because my lease had run out, I'd been there three years. I had expanded quite a bit and I needed a larger place so I rented a store at 4th Avenue and Madison, formerly O'Malley's who had built a new store building across the street at 4th Avenue and Madison. This store was occupied originally by Malley's and then J. Redmond Supply occupied it. So I started out at 4th Avenue and Madison and this was in 1950 when I moved into this larger building. Then in 1955 I moved into a tremendous new building on 16th Street and Washington which I built on my own. KOFMAN: And this was all the fluorescent lighting? SCHURGIN: Started out as fluorescent lighting. In fact, I had so little money and so little material that when I came out of the Army in 1946 I used to knock on doors on Washington Street. I remember the Hub, Mr. Sol Mintz -- there's a name you ought to look up. His daughter lives in Denver, Colorado, Sol Mintz's daughter. They owned a mens' clothing store called the Hub next to where the five and dime store is on lst Street and Washington Street. Thrifty Drug was next door to the Hub. That was sort of a Jewish area in that time. We all met at Sam Kotzen's cigar Store, Sam's Cigar Store; everybody had lunch there. I can remember when Dave Bush started his business with the Fuchs boy. They went into partnership together. In fact, I dated Belle Bush before she married Dave Bush. Her name was Belle -- it started with a T. Oh, you'll get it from her. In fact, I dated her before Dave Bush married her. She had a sister who married a boy who was in the plumbing business; what's her sister's name? They lived in Wickenburg for many, many years. Belle had a sister; their name was T-oh gosh, well you'll get it from her. KOFMAN: Sure we will. SCHURGIN: Let me see. oh, I skipped a couple of things during World War II. Bernie Eglyn went to the Air Corps and Max Fisher went into the infantry and I was shipped to Cheyenne, Wyoming. KOFMAN: What division were you in? SCHURGIN: I started in Quartermaster because that was a Quartermaster Corps in Cheyenne, but I switched to the Corps of Engineers. I went to OCS in Cheyenne. I stayed in Cheyenne for two years and I became one of the leaders of the Jewish community there. They lost their rabbi, a man by the name of Krash, K-r-a-s-h. When I was stationed in Wyoming, in Cheyenne, they had lost their rabbi and Dasha Todd at that time was one of the leaders of the Jewish community, her father's name was Mr. Shapiro, whose son is still in Cheyenne, who comes to see Dasha quite often. I used to conduct services in Cheyenne, Wyoming when the rabbi left for the soldiers and for the community. Of course, I was stationed there for almost two years. Then I was stationed two years at a place called Granite City, Illinois, which was across the river from St. Louis. They lost their rabbi during the way and they had what they called the tri-cities, which were Granite City, Madison, Illinois and one other little town. They had a nice synagogue but no rabbi, so I conducted services for two years in the tri-cities area in Granite City, Illinois. As a matter of fact Rabbi Schectman was stationed at East St. Louis, which is only a few miles from -- although I didn't know him at that particular time. KOFMAN: This is the Rabbi Schectman that eventually came to Phoenix? SCHURGIN: Yes. He's retired now in Phoenix. He retired in Florida but just came back to Phoenix a few months ago to retire. So he's living here in Phoenix, he and his wife. He was the rabbi in East St. Louis. An interesting story I want to tell you about anti-Semitism in the Army. I never experienced it. In fact, I'll tell you a story that sounds unbelievable. When I arrived in Cheyenne I had to do my basic training there. So I spent three months as a buck private, finished my basic training and then I took the IQ test again. They asked me if I'd like to go to Officer's Candidate School. I said yes, I'd like to go to Officer's Candidate School. This was the Quartermaster Corps. They asked me to come to an interview. You had to have a certain IQ to go to Officer's Candidate School. In this interview there were six soldiers, all privates. I was the only one that had never finished college out of the six. I never finished high school actually. But my high school later became the Yeshiva University. KOFMAN: I noticed that on your background information. SCHURGIN: I went to high school at the original Yeshiva University which was called the Talmudical Academy. KOFMAN: Where was this? SCHURGIN: New York, the lower East Side of New York, before they moved uptown in New York on Absam Avenue. It was only a high school in those days and you could get your degree as a rabbi and once you finished that school at age 18 you could become a rabbi. My father died and I had to quit school at age 15 and I went to work on the East Side of New York. But let's get back to this anti-Semitism business in the Army. Here were six privates being interviewed by six Army officers, a lieutenant colonel, two majors, captains and so forth. All of them were either engineers or teachers, all having college degrees. The interviewing officer, who was a lieutenant colonel, looks at my background and he's trying to put us at our ease. He wants to see how we act and react to all these questions that they fire at you to get into Officer's Candidate School. He looks at my application and he says, 'Yeshiva University,' he says, "I never heard of that university. What kind of a university is that?" I said, "Colonel, that's a university which trains Orthodox rabbis.' You could hear a pin drop. Here were six officers listening to what I just said. If any one of them had any anti-Semitism in his body I would never have gone to OCS. I was the only one out of the six that was picked to go to OCS. KOFMAN: That's good to know. SCHURGIN: Isn't that interesting? You hear all kinds of stories about anti-Semitism in the Army. I'd like to tell you one that , s just the antithesis of anti-Semitism. KOFMAN: You had no problems either at Officer's Training School? SCHURGIN: No problems at all. I had trouble getting through because it was so cold. I don't have to tell you about Cheyenne,, it's a cold, cold place. We had to go on maneuvers up in the mountains that were 10,000, 9,000 feet high with three or four feet of snow on the ground and dig a tent through there. It was not an easy job for especially a man who had lung trouble. KOFMAN: Let me ask you a couple of other questions. Now I'm looking at this background of yours and I would be interested to know about the B'nai Brith Lodge #960. SCHURGIN: Well, that's the Herman Lewkowitz Lodge today. It's the largest B'nai Brith Lodge in the Valley. At that time there was only one lodge and I think I had the distinction of being the first member of Congregation Beth El ever to become president of B'nai Brith Lodge #960. Of course, most of them were previous members of Temple Beth Israel. KOFMAN: Do you know approximately when the lodge was founded? SCHURGIN: That you'll have to get from Burton or from -- call Gerst. Have you ever heard that name, G-e-r-s-t. KOFMAN: Yes. SCHURGIN: Now, he was president before I was. KOFMAN: Was that Morris? SCHURGIN: Morrie Gerst, yes, M-o-r-r-i-s. His son is alive and I think Morris is still alive. Morrie Gerst was a protegee of Herman Lewkowitz. In fact, I think he worked for Herman as a clerk or something. But his family owned a furniture store by the name of Angelus Furniture on West Van Buren. So that they have interesting stories to tell. I'm sure Morrie can give you some very interesting stories about the early days of B'nai Brith. KOFMAN: Was his son's name Steve? SCHURGIN: Yes, he's got a son by the name of Steve Gerst. KOFMAN: I went to religious school with his son. SCHURGIN: Morrie Gerst can probably tell you more about B'nai Brith Lodge than any other individual alive today. KOFMAN: How about some stories from the Palo Verde Toastmasters Club? SCHURGIN: Well, Toastmasters International was just organized around that time, '38 or '39. I don't know if you're familiar with Toastmasters International. KOFMAN: Yes. SCHURGIN: So I organized and started this Palo Verde Toastmasters in order to benefit myself as a public speaker and as a salesman. We had some famous people. Donofrio was in my chapter. KOFMAN: What was his first name? SCHURGIN: I can't remember. Very famous people who belonged to our chapter, judges and lawyers, because it was something that every one of us needed in those days. KOFMAN: Did the Rosenzweigs join? SCHURGIN: I don't think so. They may have joined some other Toastmasters. There were three or four other Toastmasters clubs after that, but I was the charter president of that particular club in those days. That gave me more ability to act as a salesman when I was working for Korricks. And later on, of course, it stood me in good stead in my own business as a speaker, as a public speaker. KOFMAN: At what time did you start the Arizona Power and Light Company? SCHURGIN: 1940. KOFMAN: That was the name of it even before you went into the service? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. I was in my own business for about a year and a half before I went into the service. KOFMAN: At first the Arizona Power and Light Company was the distributorship for the fluorescent lights? SCHURGIN: Yes, but originally started as a power plant distributor for Delco of General Motors Corporation. KOFMAN: I see a lot of other things. Here it says Boy Scout Troop#31. Was that a Jewish Boy Scout troop or not? SCHURGIN: That is the original Jewish Boy Scout troop in the city of Phoenix. It was probably started in 1928 but when I came here in '35 it had been dead for about five or six years. I started Troop 31 as part of my activities when I was vice president of B'nai B'rith Lodge #960, which is today the Lewkowitz Lodge. I also started the first AZA Chapter in the state of Arizona. An interesting story - Albert Gross was our first president and Burton Lewkowitz was our first vice president of the first AZA Chapter in the state of Arizona. of course, Herman wanted to have his son become president. I shouldn't have said that, I'm sorry. Anyway, Albert Gross was the first president of the first AZA Chapter in the state of Arizona. It was called Arizona AZA. As far as the Boy Scout troop that troop is still in existence today at the Jewish community Center. KOFMAN: Do you happen to remember some of those first little Boy Scouts? I think that would be very interesting. SCHURGIN: I wish I could remember -- even the AZA boys I've forgotten. You can get that from Al Gross or from Burton Lewkowitz, one or the other. They can tell you the story about the first AZA Chapter. I'm trying to remember the names of the boys who were in the Boy Scout troop. I was its first scout master. I had to be the scout master because there was nobody else eligible at that time. KOFMAN: Did you do mostly typical Boy Scout things or did you have anything with a Jewish flavor? SCHURGIN: At that time, in fact there still is today the Ner Tamid Award, which is a Jewish award, specifically for Jewish children. But it was a regular Boy Scout troop in those days. KOFMAN: You never have told me how you found your wife. I take it she was not a local girl. SCHURGIN: No, she's a Detroit girl. I was on temporary duty once in Lompoke Santa Maria, California. I was in Engineer Corps, I was a second lieutenant. She came to visit a cousin of hers at camp Cook, California which is today Vandenburg Air Force Base. I went to the New Year's Eve dance in 1944 and I met her. Her cousins took her to this dance. And I was single and she was single. January 1st, 1944. Then we were married in April of 1944. KOFMAN: That was a quick courtship. SCHURGIN: Yes, a quick courtship. We were married in Detroit. So that's how I met my wife. KOFMAN: I think it's very romantic that you still have the date, January the 1st, 1944. So you've got almost an anniversary coming up pretty soon. SCHURGIN: That's when we first met. KOFMAN: Tell me some more about the early days of Beth El, maybe some of the politics that went on or some interesting board meetings. SCHURGIN: I'll tell you some interesting politics about the Newmark family and about the Reiter family. KOFMAN: Reiter? SCHURGIN: R-e-i-t-e.-r. That was Pearl Newmark's maiden name, Reiter, R-e-i-t-e-r. I became very active in Beth El from the first time that I came to Beth El. In fact, I'll never forget this. The first Yom Kippur that I came to Phoenix, Arizona in 1935, Rabbi Dow asked me if I wouldn't perform the N'ila Service on Yom Kippur, which is the holiest service of the day. He trusted me to conduct that service to be the cantor for that particular service. And that is one of the things that I remember to this day that I conducted the N'ila Service in 1935 at Beth El. Of course, I started their first Hebrew school. I became its first Hebrew school teacher at Beth El. At that time a young boy by the name of Samuels, who is brother to Esther Fireman and to Alan Oseran's wife Bess. Lou Samuels was secretary -- you can get in touch with him over in San Francisco. I understand he's quite ill. But Esther Fireman can give you some interesting information. KOFMAN: That was her brother? SCHURGIN: Yes. And the Oseran girl is her sister. When I came to Phoenix in 1935 Lou Samuels was secretary of Beth El and he was the one that got me interested to join even though I was making very little, making $18 a week in those days as a stock clerk. He introduced me to his family, the Samuels family, and that's how I met Esther Fireman and her sister and Lou Samuels and their mother. They lived on Culver Street. I'll never forget they invited me to the first Passover Sader in their home. I lived at the YMCA in the early days because that was the cheapest place to live. And there was absolutely no discrimination. When people tell me about that I didn't know anything about it. I lived at the Y, I exercised at the Y, I ate at the Y and there was absolutely no discrimination whatsoever. They had a cafeteria, by the way, even in those days. It was a block and a half from Sam's Cigar store. Lou Samuels worked for Diamonds, which was then called the Boston Store. He was in the mens' department, one of their clothing salesman. He was very active at Beth El; as I told you he was secretary. The whole Samuels family was active at Beth El. Interesting enough I met their family in Douglas, Arizona, the Samuels family but their name was not Samuels. Their uncle and Lou Samuels' father were partners in a furniture store. Their original name was Ilitsky, I-l-i-t-s-k-y. They had two sons and I think that the two sons are still alive. In fact, part of their family is in Mexico City. There are Ilitskys in Mexico City and Ilitskys in Guadalajara, whom I visited in Guadalajara. Esther Fireman and Bess Oseran can tell you about the Ilitsky family in Douglas, Arizona, one of the oldest families in Douglas. Both Esther and Bess were born in Douglas. They moved to Phoenix probably in 1934, a year before I came to Phoenix under the name of Samuels. KOFMAN: Do you know why they took that name, or shall I wait to hear it from them? SCHURGIN: You'll hear it from them. I don't know why they changed their name. But in those days the Levy's Department Store was the biggest department store in Douglas, which was owned by the Jewish family of Levys of Tucson, Arizona. That was one of their branches. I used to call on them for Korricks in their clothing department and sell them. I used to have an account in Bisbee, Arizona. I used to go to Naco Arizona. KOFMAN: Is that N-a-c-o? SCHURGIN: N-a-c-o. KOFMAN: I have never been there but I have seen it. SCHURGIN: I have probably been to almost every corner of the state of Arizona, probably know more about Arizona than most people do. Of course, I traveled every single part. Being ambitious and single in those days that's what I did. I opened up new accounts everywhere. KOFMAN: You were going to tell me an interesting story about the Reiter family. My ears perked up on that. SCHURGIN: Oh, the Reiter family. Well, of course everybody belonged to Beth Israel in 1930. When the split came and they founded Beth El, not many people left, only about 12 families left Beth Israel to found Beth El. But in 1938 something happened at Beth Israel. I'd rather you hear the story from Pearl and from Cecil rather than from me. KOFMAN: They were still at Beth Israel? SCHURGIN: They were still at Beth Israel. As a matter of fact, the Newmarks were in the choir at Beth Israel from the beginning, they are the original choir members. KOFMAN: That's Cecil? SCHURGIN: Cecil and Phil. Phil is now in California. You should get that story from them. But they became the choir at Beth El when they left Beth Israel. KOFMAN: I'd be interested to hear the story from you too, because everyone will tell it a little different. SCHURGIN: Different, sure. In 1938 something happened at Beth Israel and the following families left, as I remember it. Now, they , 11 tell you more about it than I do. The Mintzes, Sol Mintz, who owned the Hub, left Beth Israel in 1938; Morris Meckler left Beth Israel in 1938; the Reiters; the Newmarks. They'll tell you who else. There was something that happened at Beth Israel that they left Beth Israel in 1938. KOFMAN: Do you know what it was that happened? SCHURGIN: No, no, I'd rather you hear it from them. But that must be an interesting story in itself, the fact that they left and joined, but I don't know what happened. But by then I'm sure Beth Israel had already been Reform for many years. Well, let them tell you the story why they came. They strengthened Beth El at that time when they joined. Of course, these were people of substance. Mr. Reiter was manager for Harry Rosenzweig in Tucson and then came to Phoenix and became a manager up here. Sol Mintz owned the Hub, one of the biggest clothing stores. Mr. Meckler owned one of the biggest diamond jewelry stores. And by the way, Mr. Meckler went on and became president of Beth El and you might get that story from his daughters. Do you know his daughters? KOFMAN: Yes. Slightly anyway. SCHURGIN: I'm sure you do. Firestein is one of them and the other one is -- what's the other one's name? KOFMAN: Brenda? SCHURGIN: No, not Brenda. Brenda was a relative of Mecklers, by the way. They're related in some way. Brenda will give you some interesting stories. But then you must remember that she left Phoenix probably around 1938 or 1940 and didn't come back until later to marry Mr. Meckler, whose wife had died, leaving him with the two girls. Mr. Meckler later became president of Beth El -- for 12 years he was president. And I was his secretary for 12 years. And I became president in 1952, I was president of Beth El and I'm still on the board of Beth El. I had become very active in the University of Judaism in Los Angeles. KOFMAN: What is that exactly? SCHURGIN: The University of Judaism is a branch of the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York, which is the headquarters of the Conservative movement. They are the ones that are ordained, they're Conservative rabbis. They are the ones that are the head of the Conservative movement in the entire United States, which is the largest religious movement in the country by the way. They have more members and synagogues than the Reform movement. KOFMAN: That's interesting; I didn't know that. SCHURGIN: Yes. And I'm very active in the Conservative movement. I was regional vice president of the Conservative movement. I'm on the National Advisory Board of the Conservative movement. I go to conventions in Israel and in New York for the Conservative movement - still very active. The University of Judaism became the west coast branch for the Jewish Theological Seminary. They don't give you a rabbinical degree, you have to go to New York to finish. But you get your education there before you go to New York. It's both for boys and girls. I've been active in the university for many, many years. I'm their vice president for Arizona, their representative for Arizona of the University of Judaism. Every year we are invited to go to Camp Ramah. Have you ever heard of Camp Ramah? KOFMAN: Yes. SCHURGIN: We have a weekend solely for Arizona, San Diego and San Francisco and Vancouver where anybody, other than Los Angeles, nobody from Los Angeles is invited for that particular weekend, where we arrive on a Friday, we fly in and they bus us to Camp Ramah in California. They close the gates in the afternoon so that you can't even get out of the camp. You study and you pray all week long and then Sunday they bus you back to the University of Judaism which is on Mulholland Drive in Los Angeles and they serve you lunch. KOFMAN: Now, is this for husbands and wives? SCHURGIN: Husband and wife, or singles. We have a lot of singles going. Mrs. Schubert, Mrs. Goor -- by the way, do you know Mrs. Goor? KOFMAN: I haven't seen her in many years. SCHURGIN: They came here I remember in 1940. Her husband's name was Ben and her son is a Reform rabbi in New York. He got his training at Beth El. A very big synagogue in New York also, her son is rabbi there. KOFMAN: Now, is this Stephanie that you're talking about or is that the daughter? SCHURGIN: Stephanie is the ex-daughter. Her name was Multer. KOFMAN: Right. That's the one I'm thinking of. Okay, what was Mrs. Goor's first name? Do you remember? Her husband was Ben Goor? SCHURGIN: Ben Goor. KOFMAN: We'll get it. We'll find it. SCHURGIN: Get a hold of her. She came here by herself because her child was sick, I think it was Joel Goor, her son, by the way who is an excellent tennis player. As you gather I still play. KOFMAN: Yes, I can tell that. Sounds like you have quite a group. SCHURGIN: Well, I play Saturday, I play Sunday and I play twice during the week. I play about four times a week. Where shall we continue? KOFMAN: Well, you were talking about the University of -- SCHURGIN: Oh, the University of Judaism. Well, many, many years they operated out of the old Hollywood Athletic Club in Hollywood. But then about eight years ago somebody donated some land to them and they moved to Mulholland Drive in Los Angeles. They are right across the street from the Stephen S. Wise Temple, which is the largest Reform temple in Los Angeles. So one is on one corner and one is on the other. They're in a tremendous building program. In fact, in January of 1985, or February at the latest, they're going to dedicate two new dormitories so that they can house their students at the university. KOFMAN: Is this strictly to train rabbis? SCHURGIN: No, no. It has a tremendous outreach program also. Let me show you some of the things that they do. KOFMAN: What are these students studying? SCHURGIN: These students are studying everything pertaining to Judaism. In fact, I'm going to give you a catalog, if you like, to give you an idea of what they do and what their program is. Here is a catalog of the bulletin and their subjects and what they teach and what they do. It's the only Jewish university on the west coast. I don't know whether you would consider Brandeis a Jewish university or whether you would consider Gratz or a number of others. I would say they're not. But apparently some people think they are. The University of Judaism is the only Jewish university on the west coast. Now, the Yeshiva University has opened up a branch in Los Angeles so now we have two Jewish universities in Los Angeles; one for the Orthodox and one for the Conservative. It seems to me that the Reform movement has a branch in Los Angeles. All three branches are represented now on the west coast, in Los Angeles. KOFMAN: Have they done any particular work here in the Phoenix area? SCHURGIN: Yes. Every year we have a fund-raising luncheon for the University of Judaism and we honor some outstanding person that has done work for the university. Mrs. Schubert has been honored. KOFMAN: What is Mrs. Schubert's first name? SCHURGIN: Ann, Annie Schubert. By the way, you might get in touch with her even though she came after the war. Her son's name is Gordon, who is a vice president of E.F. Hutton Company. I'm sure you've heard of that company. Her son, Gordon, is vice president. They at one time owned the largest liquor wholesale business in the state of Arizona. But Gordon became a vice president at E.F. Hutton when they sold the business. Her husband was president of Beth El. KOFMAN: Can you tell me some other things about the early beginnings of the Jewish Welfare Drive and the Federation; the early beginnings of the Federation should be very interesting. SCHURGIN: It' s very interesting, that's true. I was gone for four years during World War II so I can't tell you about those years but the Jewish Community Center, as you know, was founded. The Federation met at the Jewish Community Center. KOFMAN: Do you know what year that was approximately? SCHURGIN: I think you'll have to get in touch with them. I really don't know. A man by the name of Sam Hoffman built the first Jewish Community Center building. Originally they were housed in a private home on 4th Street. Sam Hoffman built the first Jewish Community Center on Camelback Road and 16th Street, I think you remember. KOFMAN: Yes, I do. SCHURGIN: The electrical contractor at that time was Arthur Electric who worked at cost. I gave them all their electrical supplies. Then of course they built the new Jewish Community Center on Maryland. What else can I tell you? KOFMAN: Were you on those boards? No, you were not? SCHURGIN: No. Personally, I'm not even active in the Federation. I used to be on the Federation board until about five years ago, four years ago. My own personal feeling is that they're not Jewish enough. I'm intensely Jewish, always have been. The fact that the three largest beneficiaries of the Federation are non-sectarian irks the hell out of me. KOFMAN: What are they? What are the three? SCHURGIN: You know what they are. Who gets the most money? Jewish Community Center, number one. They're non-sectarian. Of course, we all know the reason why they're non-sectarian; to get money from United Way. Sure, that's wonderful. They wouldn't get that money if they were only Jewish, but I resent that. The second largest recipient is the Jewish Family service, which is supposed to take care of the poor of the Jews. No, but they take care of Mexicans, they take care of Blacks, they take care of everybody in the community. They're non-sectarian. Okay. And the third largest recipient is Kivel, which is non-sectarian. I can understand Kivel being non-sectarian because they get (unintelligible] funds to build the building, to organize it and everything else. But I resent it very, very much. And I have not been active in the Federation for many years for that reason. KOFMAN: Interesting opinion. I hear what you're saying and I understand. SCHURGIN: I know I'm a minority of one and I know it, but I've always been that way. KOFMAN: Of course, the Federation also raises the money for Israel. SCHURGIN: All right, let me tell you about that. I used to fight for that all the time. When we first started the Federation in Phoenix it was divided between the poor and Israel. As a matter of fact, Israel got 80 to 90 percent of the money that was collected. Each year since then the percentage that goes to Israel has dropped. It got down to as low as 42 cents or 40 cents out of the dollar that went to Israel. And I've been fighting that for years and I've always been in the minority. More and more money is being spent locally every year - to non-sectarian organizations. That's what bothers me. KOFMAN: I hear what you're saying. SCHURGIN: And I'm very strong in my opinions and people resent me for that. KOFMAN: No, you have a right to your opinions and there's something to what you're saying. Certainly, I have not heard these statistics. SCHURGIN: I've been on the board for many years at the Federation and I've always fought it because every year Israel suffers and gets less and less. Not only that, I don't even know whether they're current in the money that they owe to Israel today. When I first got on the board they were three years behind. They had taken that money and given it to the Center or to other local Jewish causes and Israel was behind sucking a hind tit if you know what I'm talking about. I fought that. They may be current today and I think I'm responsible for that. If they aren't current then they're certainly not doing the right thing, because Israel is always last in line. KOFMAN: Do you know what their reasoning is that they want to spend more of the money locally for the Jewish community here? SCHURGIN: Yes, but how are they collecting that money? Why do they collect all the money that they collect? It's because they have the reputation, or they present the fact that they give this money to Israel. So you I re collecting your money on the backs of Israel and making Israel suffer. And I know I'm a minority of one there also. Doesn't bother me a bit. KOFMAN: I appreciate your candor and I'm interested in what you have to say. SCHURGIN: I've always been that way. I've served on the Federation board for many years. KOFMAN: Do you remember some of the types of maybe fund raising affairs, things that they used to have that might have been outstanding? SCHURGIN: No, but I've been very active in the founding and organization of the Hebrew Academy. I was very helpful to the Valley Jewish Center when it first started. KOFMAN: The Valley Jewish Day School? SCHURGIN: Day School, yes. My present activity mainly, and I'll show you something very, very interesting. I don't know whether you've every heard of the Elderhostel Program. KOFMAN: No. SCHURGIN: You don't know what that is? KOFMAN: No, I don't. SCHURGIN: The Elderhostel Program is a program founded in the East, I think in Boston. KOFMAN: How do you spell that? SCHURGIN: E-1-d-e-r-h-o-s-t-e-1, Elderhostel. KOFMAN: All right. Now I know better what it might mean. SCHURGIN: I'm sure you've heard of it. This is interesting. I've been lecturing about it to B'nai Brith and to a number of other organizations. I have been to three of their programs. It is for senior citizens who want to continue their education along the lines that they want to. I went to one program at Ann Arbor, which is the University of Michigan. I went to Israel on the first Israel program that they had. They have programs in England, they have programs in other countries, Canada. For the first time in 1983 they had a program in Israel. So this is the program that I attended in Israel. Have you ever heard of Goldsmith? KOFMAN: Of course. SCHURGIN: Of course. This is the Goldsmith building at the Hebrew University on Mount Scopus. I took this picture especially to show to Mrs. Goldsmith. KOFMAN: Yes, because she has a building out at Kivel as well. My grandmother lives in that. SCHURGIN: Well, her husband -- she's only been married ten years to him -- her husband was one of the greatest supporters that Israel ever had. I saw personally donations totaling up to $13 million to Israel through various different organizations. And the Hebrew University is just one of them. He gave a million dollars to Boy's Town, a million dollars to Girl's Town, a million dollars to the Weizmann Institute, a million dollars to the Technion. I personally saw that. He was a very good friend of mine. KOFMAN: This Elderhostel, this is for continuing education for senior citizens? SCHURGIN: Continuing education for senior citizens - anybody over 55. KOFMAN: Is that only held in Israel or is that all over? SCHURGIN: No, no. There are 700 universities, including the University of Arizona and including Arizona State, cooperating, including Grand Canyon College. What they do normally is invite the Elderhostel Program during the Christmas season or the Easter season when they are closed. So they have a continual program 52 weeks a year. I'll show you one of their catalogs. I went to San Diego, by the way, to study the Dead Sea Scrolls on the Elderhostel Program. Dead Sea Scrolls was one of the subjects in San Diego last year. KOFMAN: They must be very interesting to study. SCHURGIN: Very interesting. Now, the University of Judaism has been building almost a year these two new dormitories. They were worried about filling them up because they're going to be completed in the middle of a semester year. Being very active, I suggested that they fill up the dormitories at least for the first few months with the Elderhostel Program. So when the dormitories opened they took my suggestion and I met with the chancellor and the president and all the others and we are going to have a Elderhostel Program at the University of Judaism. Now, the biggest problem of course is financial because you can only charge $190 as the maximum for a whole week of study, mind you, including three Kosher meals a day. You can't eat in Los Angeles for a whole week for $190. So I am underwriting the entire program for the Elderhostel Program at the University of Judaism, which will start in '85, March of 1985. KOFMAN: And this is a one week course of study and people come and they stay on the campus? SCHURGIN: On the campus, will be living in the dormitory. By the way, it's the only new dormitory that I know of that has its own private bath. In Israel I had to walk down the hall to go to the bathroom. In the University of Michigan I had to walk down the hall. In San Diego State University I had to walk down the hall. But this will have individual bathrooms for each couple that participates in this program. Look at the subjects that they're teaching. Did you notice that? KOFMAN: They're wonderful. SCHURGIN: Aren't they marvelous. This is going to be the first time a Jewish university has participated in the Elderhostel Program. KOFMAN: Have you had some of these programs out at ASU? SCHURGIN: No, I've never attended ASU or Arizona State. KOFMAN: But they have had them? SCHURGIN: They're listed there under Arizona. Here, I'll show you. It'd be listed under Arizona. I'll show you all the universities in Arizona that participate. Elderhostel is an international organization - even Mexico. KOFMAN: Elderhostel is not necessarily Jewish? SCHURGIN: No, no. It is non-sectarian. In fact, on my trip to Israel where I studied at the Hebrew University and I studied at the Haifa University, 70 percent of our students were Christians interested in Israel and interested in Jewish education. Look at all the universities in Arizona that participate. Every one of them, U of A, Tempe, Northern Arizona University, I think Grand Canyon College is listed, isn't it, or is it? KOFMAN: I think I saw it. SCHURGIN: I think it's listed. KOFMAN: So you yourself will support non-sectarian causes. Your argument about, for example, the Federation is that you feel that they're raising -- SCHURGIN: I'll support anything that's Jewish. Does that answer your question? As long as it's primarily Jewish I'll support it. KOFMAN: But the Elderhostel is non-sectarian. SCHURGIN: That's correct, but there are a lot of Christians who are interested in Judaism and if we can get them to think that Jews don't have horns certainly I want to do that. KOFMAN: Well, of course I would assume that that's why the Federation is directing so much of their money to nonsectarian. SCHURGIN: No, they're only directing it because they're getting money from United Way and they feel that if they were Jewish they wouldn't get that money and they're right. They wouldn't get that money if they were Jewish only. They think that's more important to get that money than it is to help the Jewish cause principally. I'm not arguing with them, that's their philosophy. Money is more important than principle. KOFMAN: This is December the 5th, 1984 and this is Evanne Kofman again. I'm once again talking to Sam Schurgin for the Jewish Historical Society. Sam, when we were talking last week you told me that you had gone to Denver before you came to Phoenix. We were interrupted and I never got the rest of the story as to how you got from Denver to Phoenix. What drew you here? SCHURGIN: Well, at the age of 5 I contracted pneumonia. From then on I had terrible winters in New York City because I used to cough and bring up a lot of sputum and always caught colds and always was ill almost every winter. This existed in spite of the fact that my mother dragged me to every hospital in New York and every doctor in New York to find out what was wrong. Nobody could diagnose what was wrong with me. At the age of 19, in 1939, I went to Denver, Colorado on my own by bus hoping that the climate would benefit me. Instead, it made my condition worse because the winters were very severe then even though the air was pure and dry. I wound up in the National Jewish Hospital in Denver, Colorado. I had a terrible time at that time, I was unemployed, I was literally starving. I stayed in bed for one week at one time because I had no money to buy any food. This was in 1939. Then the Crash came. I lost the job that I had. So I wound up in the National Jewish Hospital where a marvelous doctor, who was the head of the hospital, took an ordinary x-ray of my chest and diagnosed my case as chronic bronchiectasis. He suggested that I go back to New York and then go to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania where a man by the name of Dr. Chavalier Jackson had invented an instrument called the bronchoscope. This was an instrument that he used to extract all the sputum and all the poisons out of a person's lung. It was a brand-new instrument. It took me two years to save up enough money to go from New York to Philadelphia. I went to Philadelphia in 1934 and received the bronchoscope five times in one week. At that time it was extremely painful. It's still painful to this day but in those days, before it was really perfected, it was extremely painful. Dr. Jackson suggested that I go to a warmer climate, it might possibly help. And that's the reason why I came out to Phoenix, Arizona in 1935 to see if I couldn't relieve or cure my bronchiectasis. KOFMAN: Was it the doctors that recommended Phoenix? SCHURGIN: Yes. KOFMAN: And you knew no one out here? SCHURGIN: No one. I came out here on a bus from New York. KOFMAN: Did you immediately feel better or pretty quickly? SCHURGIN: No, it was a gradual thing that I started to feel better. In fact, I felt so well that in 1942 I enlisted in the United States Army. KOFMAN: That's right. We talked about that last time I talked to you. SCHURGIN: I told you that there were three of us that enlisted, the first three Jewish boys that enlisted. You have their names? KOFMAN: Yes. SCHURGIN: I came back to Phoenix in 1946. KOFMAN: After the war? SCHURGIN: After the war. As you know at that time it was extremely difficult to find a location for a business or to find a typewriter or to find a desk or to find a car or to get anything. There was such a pent up demand because all these things had stopped. Fortunately, Charlie Korrick had stored all of my inventory and all of my electrical supplies for four years for me. Mr. Meckler stored my office equipment, my typewriter, my other things in his basement. So between the two of them I collected all the things that I had and started in business again at 608 South Central, as I told you I think. KOFMAN: You told me about the building. It was 50 by 25 you said. SCHURGIN: I couldn't even get a car so what I did I bought a used car, a four-door sedan with the back two doors cut out and made into a pickup. That's the car that I drove for a number of years, because I couldn't get a new one, I couldn't afford a new car. KOFMAN: Tell me, didn't you get into real estate development? SCHURGIN: No. KOFMAN: No, you did not. SCHURGIN: Never did. I always was in the electrical business. KOFMAN: All right. I was going to ask you about the Hebrew Men's Club. We never talked about that and I think it's time that we did. SCHURGIN: Well, you should talk to Cecil. KOFMAN: Cecil Newmark? SCHURGIN: Yes. He is one of the original founders I think. I'd like you to talk to Saul Lebeau also. Saul had been active in the Hebrew Men's Club. By the way, his wife, Reva, was the daughter of a man by the name of Gordon. His two sons are still in Phoenix. I'm sure you know who they are. The two Gordon boys and even Reva could probably give you more information than Saul Lebeau can because they were here before Saul came here. Mr. Gordon was one of the founders of Congregation Beth El. So you might check with them. KOFMAN: What can you tell me about the Hebrew Men's club? You got very active in it. SCHURGIN: Yes, I was very active. Why? Because it was the only social club in Phoenix at that time where young Jewish boys and young Jewish girls could get together. We had such wonderful parties all over the city, in Tempe and in South Phoenix at the park. I can remember vividly to this day a picnic that was held at South mountain Park. I remember to this day Esther Fireman and I renting some horses and climbing into the mountains on the horses. Then after the horseback ride going to Riverside Park, which at that time was the only swimming pool in the city of Phoenix until the Tempe pool was built. KOFMAN: Where was this? SCHURGIN: South Central Avenue near the bridge, near the river. Then Riverside Park had a beautiful dance floor. I can remember getting off our horses to go dancing and then taking the horses back to the picnic. KOFMAN: Harry Rosenzweig also mentioned Riverside. That was the big social center? SCHURGIN: That was the big social center for most of the Jewish people here in Phoenix. KOFMAN: Who else was at that picnic? Do you remember? SCHURGIN: Oh, sure. The Newmarks, there were two Newmarks, Phil and Cecil; and the old- timers like Saul Lebeau was there I'm sure. KOFMAN: But you weren't old-timers then. SCHURGIN: No. Well, Saul Lebeau wasn't an old-timer either. Most of the old-timers have died really. Very few of them are alive. KOFMAN: This was a picnic sponsored by the Hebrew Men's Club? SCHURGIN: They sponsored all kinds of dances and meetings and picnics and swimming parties and everything else. KOFMAN: Okay, but was this a generally inviting all of the Jewish young people or did you come only with a date? How did these things -- SCHURGIN: No, you could come without a date. All Jewish young singles were invited and a lot of them got married through the Hebrew Men's Club. KOFMAN: But not you. You went back to Detroit. SCHURGIN: No. I was a bachelor until World War II. On New Year's Day of 1944 I met my wife in the service, in the Army when I stationed in California and then we were married on April 17, 1944. KOFMAN: Besides being a social club, did the Hebrew Men's Club do anything? Did they have any projects, philanthropy, anything like that? SCHURGIN: Yes, they had some projects. I think you should get more of that information from Cecil. He could give you a better history than I can, although Cecil left Phoenix you know. He was promoted and they moved to Denver, he and Pearl. So he was gone a number of years, but Cecil knows the entire history of the early days of the Hebrew Men's Club. KOFMAN: Let's see. There were some other really interesting things that you certainly could have enlightened us on. SCHURGIN: When I first came to Phoenix I was quite Orthodox. I observed the Sabbath and naturally I joined Beth El. Rabbi Dow thought so much of me that the first Yom Kippur that I came to Phoenix he invited me to sing in the N'ila Service which was the most important service of the day. This was in 1935 and that was quite a feather in my cap I would say. Since then I've done everything for Beth El from sweeping the floor to being the cantor, to being the acting rabbi when we had no rabbi. KOFMAN: This was during the -- SCHURGIN: Early 30's, late 30's. we hired our first rabbi, Rabbi Barack, who came to Phoenix in 1939 as a bachelor, Nathan A. Barack, B-a-r-a-c-k. As a matter of fact, Rabbi Barack and I lived together as bachelors in an apartment house that Mr. Meckler owned on West Roosevelt, 301 West Roosevelt I believe was the correct address. I lived with Rabbi Barack until he got married. I think he got married in 1940. Then I moved out and lived by myself. KOFMAN: Did he marry a local Phoenix girl? SCHURGIN: No. He married a girl, I don't know where she came from. Rabbi Barack today is in Sheboygan, S-h-e-b-o-y-g-a-n, Sheboygan, Wisconsin. I'm sure his wife is still alive. I know he is, I've seen him in Israel twice at conventions and at [unintelligible] meetings. So he should be contacted to give you some information about the early days that he was a rabbi at that time. KOFMAN: I can remember many social evenings spent in the basement of Beth El, even though my family was not members of the congregation. Can you tell me about some of the events, things that happened. SCHURGIN: Sure. Rabbi Barack came to us when we were still on 4th Street and Fillmore. He helped us build the basement at 301 West McDowell, 302 West McDowell. I remember coming out of the service in 1946 and there were a tremendous number of Jewish soldiers here because they had all been stationed around Yuma and around Williams Field and Luke Field. We had our services in 1946 at the Shrine Auditorium and we had 1,500 people for Yom Kippur and Roshashona services. I remember Cecil and Phil being our choir. I remember myself being the cantor, Rabbi Barack being the rabbi and I even read the Torah that year because we had no Torah reader. I blew the shofar that year. That continued until we had a professional cantor. I was the cantor in 1947 and in '48 we had our services at North High School and we had our services at the Ramada I remember one time. I remember being the cantor all this time until we hired our first professional cantor. The years in between where we didn't have a rabbi I remember that I was the acting rabbi for a number of years. KOFMAN: Do you remember much about the building fund drive and the impetus to relocate up on Glendale Avenue? SCHURGIN: You have available there that dedication book. Jerry Smith at that time I think was chairman of the committee to raise the funds to build. That family came here in 1946 I remember. Jerry may have come a little earlier in '45 but I remember when they went into business, in the dry cleaning business. I think you should contact the Smith boys. There are two of them in Phoenix; Ted and Irving Smith are still left. Harry Smith has passed away. He's a former president of Beth El. Jerry Smith is now living in El Paso. You can also get some valuable information from Arnold Smith, who came out here with his father I think in 1933 or 1934. So you should contact Arnold also. KOFMAN: Well, you know Arnold Smith hosted the first annual gala event of the historical society. SCHURGIN: Which I couldn't attend because I don't go out at night. KOFMAN: Well, we missed you. SCHURGIN: Thank you. KOFMAN: You were talking last time about Charlie Korrick. Recently I had a conversation with a woman who said very fondly that almost any Jewish person who came to Phoenix in the 30's, 40's, at least as far back as she remembered, could count on help from Charlie Korrick through at least a temporary job at Korricks until he or she could get going in something else. Do you remember him as doing that kind of thing? SCHURGIN: Yes. Charlie Korrick at one time was probably the principal benefactor for the Jewish people in the city of Phoenix. Every Jew that ever came to Phoenix always approached him for a donation, whether it was a rabbi or a broken down or homeless or poor Jewish person. I would also like to add the name of the Diamonds. I can remember Ike Diamond very well who was very charitable towards the Jewish people and also preferred to hire Jewish people in the city of Phoenix. These two people were the owners of the two largest department stores in the state of Arizona at that particular time. The things that I loved and admired about Charlie Korrick, whom I regarded as one of the greatest and finest businessmen in the entire world, in my opinion. Number one, he never had a private secretary. You could walk into his door which was always open without having to go through a secretary. You could always call Charlie Korrick on the telephone and nobody would ask you who's calling. He had over 400 employees and each one of them could walk right into his office unannounced without going through a secretary. I' ve tried to emulate him ever since. To me that was one of the greatest traits. I resent people today who have a secretary who asks who's calling and what business do you have with him, especially if two or three minutes later, well, he just left or he's in conference or he's too busy or whatever it is, it's a terrible trait I resent to this day. I always answer my phone by announcing myself and you don't have to ask anybody and never did. I had 53 employees and not one of my employees was allowed to ask who's calling. KOFMAN: Do you feel that in a sense you received business training from Charlie? SCHURGIN: I received a lot of business training from Charlie, although I had business training in New York as well. But Charlie to me was one of the greatest businessmen I have ever known. KOFMAN: Also, apparently one of the greatest people. He was a people person. SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. He treated me like a son. I cannot say anything bad about Charlie. A lot of people will say some things about Charlie, they may have a personal feeling or a personal animosity. I have never found that to be true. I have never found the Diamonds as other than perfect gentlemen and philanthropists and good Jewish people. KOFMAN: From what you described previously with the stores and everything I would guess that you miss the flavor of the downtown area that you remember. You know, walking down the street there's the Hub Clothing Store, Diamonds - the Boston Store as it was then. SCHURGIN: The White House Mercantile Company which was owned by Hyman Gold. Skomer was the name I tried to tell you in my last tape, about David Skomer. That's an interesting story. I think he still has one son alive. The red haired Skomer I'm trying to remember who expanded the business when they moved from Washington Street. They were located at 315 East Washington. I can remember to this day Dave Skomer immigrating from Mexico, not knowing a word of English, with two or three little children, opening up his little store on East Washington Street. I used to sell him Levis and pants for Korricks. There was a typical Jewish success story, starting with nothing and building up a beautiful chain which his sons expanded. I can remember Horowitz in the Globe Furniture Store. There was a man who became very successful in the furniture business. But I remember having very many talks with Charlie Korrick about how the Jewish people should get off the main street, try to get out of the dry goods business and try to get out of those businesses that had to be on the main street and try to go into other types of businesses where they would not be so much in the eyes of the public. There were so many avenues that they could pursue other than the dry goods business or the clothing business or whatever it was, shoe business or furniture business, that had to be on the main street. Principally, that was one of the reasons that I got out of the dry goods business. KOFMAN: Were you concerned that it gave a particular kind of image to the Jewish people? SCHURGIN: Absolutely, absolutely. A person walking down the street on Washington Street almost every establishment including the pawn shops -- by the way there were three or four pawn shops, Meckler was one of them and Harry Liebhaber's father had a pawn shop. The Spitalnys had a clothing store with western clothes. By the way, that's another family to contact, the Spitalnys. They are relatives of the Korricks, they're cousins, I believe. They came here at a very early age. The Spitalnys were a wonderful family. I remember their girls being active in the Hebrew Men's Club also, because he had quite a few of them. KOFMAN: So you and Charlie felt, sort of, at that time that there might be an image that you preferred not to create. SCHURGIN: That is correct. KOFMAN: Was there ever any friction? SCHURGIN: Never, no. In the early days there was no anti-Semitism in this city, in the city of Phoenix. It was such a conglomerate. Indians comprised most of the population, the Mexicans comprised a very large percentage of the population and there were quite a few Blacks also. So you see it was sort of homogeneous and really very little anti-Semitism because the Jewish people were the pioneers of the state of Arizona and the city of Phoenix and the city of Tucson. KOFMAN: And yet they could not at that time join the Phoenix Country Club. SCHURGIN: That is correct. However, Herman Lewkowitz and Charlie Korrick both had shares in the Phoenix Country Club which they never sold I believe. You should check with the Lewkowitz family and Ed Korrick as to why they would never give up their shares, because no other Jews could get in and they were allowed to buy shares. They probably needed the money to buy the club or found the club at that time. So you might check with them about the early history of the Phoenix Country Club. KOFMAN: That's very interesting. SCHURGIN: Isn't that interesting. Herman told me that himself. KOFMAN: Were they among the first members? SCHURGIN: I don't know whether they were members but I know they own stock in the country club. You might check with their families. Charlie Korrick, as a matter of fact, his home was right across the street from the Phoenix Country Club on 7th Street. I'm sure Eddie can fill you in on that. KOFMAN: Eddie? SCHURGIN: Eddie Korrick. KOFMAN: Another thing you mentioned and this is not necessarily a Jewish thing, but there's not many people that went to the Indian reservation. I found myself wondering if you had some interesting stories to tell about the Indian reservation, the people you met there. You talked about having gone to Hubbell's Trading Post, which is an important piece of Arizona historical interest. SCHURGIN: Well, I've been to every Indian reservation in the state of Arizona. For example, Parker is in the Mohave Indian Reservation. Yuma had its own reservation, I'm trying to remember the names of the tribes. Camp Verde had a reservation, still has to this day. The Papago Reservation at Sells, I remember going there very distinctly because I'd stay overnight in Tucson on my way back from Nogales and then get up real early in the morning because my next stop was Sells, Arizona on the Indian reservation. In those days the road wasn't paved and it was a horrible road. I used to blow at least one tire going from Tucson to Ajo, Arizona with stops at Sells, stops at Quijotoa and a number of other stops before I got to Ajo, Arizona where I had a Jewish customer by the name of Harry Kliban, K-1-i-b-a-n. I wonder if he has any relatives left. But at that time he was the only merchant allowed in the town of Ajo to operate. They had the Phelps Dodge mercantile Company of course, which carried clothing and everything else. But Harry was such an old-timer that he had the only other clothing store in the city of Ajo. Of course, there was a town called Rowood, Arizona which had a clothing store. That is a ghost town, it no longer exists. There was a town called Gibson, Arizona and that no longer exists, which were both near Ajo. Then before you got to Ajo I had a number of stops at the Indian trading posts on the Papago Reservation. Then of course on the Pima Reservation the headquarters was Sacaton. And they still have a dry goods store in Sacaton, Arizona to this day. I used to call on them. I used to call on Basha's when their headquarters was, and it still is to this day, near the Pima Reservation. I'm trying to remember the name of the town. I remember Ike Basha being one of the founders of Basha's. There were so many other reservations, I'm trying to remember all of them. The Navajo, especially, that was the largest reservation of all. I used to start out from Flagstaff and my first stop would be Tuba City, then I would go to Kayenta; I would go to Indian Wells; I would go to Oraibi; I would go to Moenkopi; the first mesa, the second mesa, the third mesa; I would go to Kings Canyon. All of these places had trading posts. They were very glad to see a salesman. Sometimes they wouldn't see a white person for weeks on end. KOFMAN: Now, the people that were running the trading posts were all white, I assume. SCHURGIN: Yes. Oh, yes. I never met an Indian trader. KOFMAN: You never dealt at all with any of the Indians? SCHURGIN: I've never met an Indian trader. most of them are all white. Most of them are beholden and obligated to Babbitts. Some of them were branches of the Babbitt Mercantile Company. KOFMAN: That's interesting. SCHURGIN: Babbitt Mercantile Company of course was in Flagstaff and they were the largest business enterprise in the entire northern part of Arizona. In Flagstaff they had everything they had auto agencies, they had clothing stores, they had grocery stores. You just name it. Then of course they had branches. They had a branch in Kingman; they had a branch in Seligman. I used to call on all of their branches to sell them dry goods for Korricks. They owned or operated most of the trading posts on the Navajo and Hopi Reservation. KOFMAN: When you say you used to sell them dry goods, these were work clothes, Levis, work shirts? SCHURGIN: Work clothes, Levis, shoes, shirts, work shirts, work pants, chambray shirts, blankets especially. I used to sell a cheap Indian blanket up north that was one of my biggest sellers because some of the Indians couldn't afford to buy the all wool blankets that they could buy. This was partly wool and part cotton. I remember selling a lot of Indian blankets. KOFMAN: Now, these Indian blankets, were they made by Indians or were they copies? SCHURGIN: No, they were copies. KOFMAN: So here you have Arizona Indians not using their own blankets but buying inexpensive, part cotton, part wool blankets from you. SCHURGIN: Yes. And some of them were all wool also, but they were much more inexpensive than the blankets that the Indians wove. KOFMAN: That's very interesting. SCHURGIN: Isn't that interesting. KOFMAN: It's almost hard to believe. SCHURGIN: Yes, it's very difficult to believe. But I used to sell tons of blankets. Tons, literally, in advance orders for the fall; take my orders in the spring for fall delivery. KOFMAN: So you, in addition to being the salesman, did you do a lot of delivery yourself? SCHURGIN: I used to deliver some things. Remember this, in those days there were no trucking lines or delivery lines. Most of these traders on the Navajo Reservation depended on Babbitt Brothers to deliver their merchandise for them. When I came to Phoenix in 1935 we did not have a Hebrew school, we had a Hebrew teacher and he was the only teacher we had at that time. I'm trying to remember his name. He used to teach the Bar Mitzvah boys at Beth El. KOFMAN: For Beth El? SCHURGIN: For Beth El. I don't know what the situation was at Beth Israel. I don't remember. But when I came here I started the Hebrew school by teaching it myself. I used to teach after work at 4:00 when I worked for Korricks and I never took any compensation for it. I never would want it. In fact, whatever I did I never took any compensation, or tried not to take any compensation, with certain exceptions. I felt it was my duty. I started the first Hebrew school at Beth El. KOFMAN: This was before you became a traveling salesman? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. I worked in the stock room in the basement. I've always been active in most of the educational programs. I've been active in the founding of the Hebrew Academy. I've been active in the founding of the Arizona Torah High School. KOFMAN: Tell me about the -- let's start with the Hebrew Academy. Now, when was it founded and what do you remember about its early beginnings? SCHURGIN: Well, the man that really you should talk to there and the early history of the Academy is Dr. zinn. The first meeting ever held to start a day school in the city of Phoenix was held in Dr. Zinn's home. He was instrumental in starting the Hebrew Academy. So I think you should contact him and his wife regarding the founding of the Hebrew Academy. The Arizona Torah High School was founded originally by Rabbi David Rebibo. It became inactive for a number of years. Then it restarted again as a high school, a day school. KOFMAN: When did it start first? SCHURGIN: I think you should check with David Rebibo on that. KOFMAN: All right. SCHURGIN: I was on the original board that hired Rabbi Kane to be the first director of the -- unfortunately, that didn't work out. KOFMAN: That was of which institution? SCHURGIN: In referring to Rabbi Kane I was talking about the Hebrew high school that meets at Temple Beth Israel. In referring to the Arizona Torah High school, that is a high school that is a day school and which was originally founded by David Rebibo and then closed for two years. He founded it under the auspices of the Torah U'mesorah Organization which his Hebrew Academy is a member of. KOFMAN: Can you tell me something about that, I'm not familiar with that organization. SCHURGIN: Torah U'mesorah is a national organization that founds and sponsors Orthodox day schools. But then when the high school closed two years later another organization called [unintelligible] came to Phoenix and brought Rabbi Camen and Rabbi Simel and originally Rabbi Winter before Rabbi Camen to restart and refound the Arizona Torah High School. Then Rabbi Jacobs was one of the teachers at the Arizona Torah High School. Unfortunately, the Arizona Torah High School closed up this summer, this last summer. So today we do not have a Torah High School, day school. However, Rabbi Rebibo is starting a ninth grade for a high school group and I believe he will also have a tenth grade. So he's slowly rebuilding the high school day school. KOFMAN: Now, this is for the Orthodox? SCHURGIN: Absolutely. We have no Conservative high school day school. We have no Conservative day school for grammar school children. The valley Jewish Day School does not belong to the Conservative movement nor to the Reform movement. They belong to no movement. So we have no Reform day school today nor a Conservative day school today. There is a movement on foot now to make or to try to change the Valley Jewish Day School into a Solomon Schecter school, which is the Conservative school. You might want to check with their offices regarding that. I'm not active in that. I was active four years ago in trying to get them to change from a non-denominational school to a Solomon Schecter school which I did not consummate. Four years ago I tried to get the University of Judaism to open up a branch campus here in Phoenix, at least for the evening for adults and high-schoolers. Unfortunately, I received very little support and that was not consummated either at that particular time. However, one of these days I hope we will have a branch of the University of -Judaism here in Phoenix. KOFMAN: You were talking about that last week when I spoke to you. SCHURGIN: The University of Judaism was founded in Los Angeles in 1947 as a branch of the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York which is the Conservative headquarters for the entire country and which graduates rabbis, teachers, administrators, executive directors, all for the Conservative movement which I've been very active in. I've been the Regional vice President. I've been on the National Advisory Board of the United Synagogue of America. I'm on the board of the University of Judaism. I was just honored in March by being made a fellow of the University of Judaism. So you can see that to me education is extremely important. KOFMAN: Why do you feel that they had difficulty getting a branch started here in Phoenix? SCHURGIN: I don't know. KOFMAN: Their lack of interest or maybe a lack of awareness? SCHURGIN: No, I don't think there's a lack of awareness because we have a fund raising affair for the University of Judaism every year, so it couldn't be a lack of awareness. KOFMAN: You mean here in Phoenix? SCHURGIN: Here in Phoenix. And we have one in Tucson which I attend to and chair also. So we're trying to get the Conservative movement more active through the University of Judaism and through United Synagogue here in the state of Arizona. KOFMAN: Now, does the University of Judaism come from the Conservative movement? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. It's part of the Conservative movement on the west coast. Now, their campus extends all the way from Vancouver on the north to San Diego on the south to Arizona on the east and at one time I had Albuquerque, New Mexico under my wing also. So you see they are very active in 11 western states as the headquarters for the 11 western states in the Conservative movement; the University of Judaism and the United Synagogue, western region. KOFMAN: Okay, let me do almost an about face for a minute and ask you, as long as you've lived in Phoenix some of your activities in the Gentile community, the greater community as a whole, because you watched Phoenix grow and I know you I ve been a part of it, it's not just the clubs and things but certainly you must have felt that in some way you I ve taken part of the development, the growth, the expansion, the cultural changes that we've seen in the last 20, 30 years. SCHURGIN: That's exactly true, Evanne. Many people think that I'm only interested in Jewish activities and Jewish affairs. I've been highly criticized for that reason. But I must tell you this. I'm a life member of the Phoenix Chamber of Commerce, intercity committee, and very active in the Phoenix Chamber of Commerce. I have chaired business trips to Coolidge, to Casa Grande. One trip I was chairman of was to Parker, Arizona. Another trip I was chairman of which was the most interesting one that I , ve ever had was a trip to Hermosillo and to Guaymas and to San Carlos, Mexico. KOFMAN: When did this take place? SCHURGIN: This was 12 years ago. There were 35 of us that got on an airplane and flew to Hermosillo. We had lunch and dinner with the Hermosillo Chamber of Commerce. Then the next night we had lunch and dinner with the Guaymas Chamber of Commerce and flew back from Guaymas to Phoenix. So that's one activity I was very active in and I loved it because I felt that we Jews should be not narrowly inclined in the business world but should be aware of what's going on outside of our own circles. KOFMAN: When did you first join the Chamber of Commerce? SCHURGIN: Oh, it was in 1949, I would say, when I came out of the Army. It is not an inexpensive thing to belong to. All these trips cost a lot of money, very expensive to travel, especially by air, although most of our trips are done by bus. A trip could cost anywhere from a minimum of $50 which is a one-day trip to three or four hundred and in some cases $800 when you go out of the state. So it's a very expensive thing to belong to - this particular committee of the Phoenix Chamber of Commerce. KOFMAN: Were you on any other committees? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. I founded the first electrical organization called the Valley of the Sun Electric League, the Arizona Wholesale Electrical Association. I'm a life member of the National Association of the National Electrical Distributors Association. I'm a life member and have been on the Board of Governors for many, many years. I've been active in the entire electrical industry. I was instrumental -- I don't know whether you saw it -- of having the electrical industry recognized by Governor Fannin and a number of other governors as setting aside a whole day as a proclamation for the electrical industry. KOFMAN: Were these associations politically active, did they do anything other than just a social type of association of men and women in similar businesses? SCHURGIN: Well, the Chamber of Commerce is not social. KOFMAN: Not the Chamber of Commerce, but the ones that you were recently just talking about - the electrical associations. SCHURGIN: The Electrical League - also business oriented. I founded one of the first Toastmasters clubs in the state of Arizona. KOFMAN: That was the Palo Verde? SCHURGIN: Palo Verde Toastmasters Club. That was not a social, that was to improve your speaking ability and your salesmanship and your association in the city of Phoenix. The Arizona Electric Club was open to anybody in the electrical industry; appliances or supplies or whatever it was. KOFMAN: I understand. But, for example, did they have regular meetings? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. KOFMAN: Were they mostly discussions or projects that the Electrical League -- if there was any legislation, for example, were you ever concerned with anything like that? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. We were sponsors. As a matter of fact, I don't know whether you know of a movement called Operation Identification. KOFMAN: Yes, but why don't you tell me about that. SCHURGIN: Well, as you know there were lots of burglaries and there still are lots of burglaries in the city of Phoenix and in the entire United States, the entire world. I was representing, when I was in the electrical industry, a manufacturer called Ideal Electric that made a tool that would write on any metal. It was an electrical tool. I went to the Phoenix Fire Department and I went to the Phoenix Police Department and got this whole thing started, this operation identification. It helped me because I sold this electrical tool. But at the same time I tried to find a means and a method of stopping or at least identifying more appliances or televisions or whatever it was that was being sold because you had the opportunity to buy this tool and etch your name or Social Security number or whatever you wanted to on the back of your television. KOFMAN: What year was this when you went to the Fire Department? SCHURGIN: I believe it was 15 years ago that I started this Operation Identification. I received recognition from the newspapers and from the Fire Department and the Police Department as well for being the organizer and the head of operation Identification. KOFMAN: Did you work with anyone in particular, because I know that eventually you could go to the fire station and use their equipment certainly instead of buying it yourself. SCHURGIN: Absolutely. I sold them their equipment, their tools. KOFMAN: You sold to the Fire Department? SCHURGIN: Absolutely. And I sold some to the Phoenix Police Department so that anybody could go down and borrow it. I was one of the prime movers of the Arizona Independent Businessman's Association. This was something that was extremely interesting to me because business problems are the same whether you're selling shoes or you're selling real estate or whatever it is. In fact, Jim Soudriette was the founder. Jim Soudriette founded an organization for independent businessmen and I believe that I was its first president and first chairman. I held that for two years and it got on its feet. What we did, we'd meet once a month. Anybody that owned a business or 51 percent of a business was eligible to join. No minority officers, nobody else except the direct owners of the business. We met once a month and discussed our problems, whatever it was. Collections, credits, salesmanship, merchandising, marketing, whatever it was, we had a guest speaker and it was open to all sorts of questions and everybody gave his interpretations on how to run his business or any business. KOFMAN: Where were the meetings held? SCHURGIN: Usually at the Ramada Inn. It was an excellent organization for a man running his own business. KOFMAN: Now, you say Mr. Suniette? SCHURGIN: Soudriette, S-o-u-d-r-i-e-t-t-e. He's still very active in the community. KOFMAN: He founded it and yet he did not become its first president? SCHURGIN: No, because he was an advisor. He was a man who was an entrepreneur, active in the real estate development here in Phoenix, who was a financial advisor. KOFMAN: What year was this that he founded that? SCHURGIN: You'll have to check with him, Jim Soudriette. Really, it was one of the finest business organizations for the city of Phoenix. KOFMAN: Is it still in existence? SCHURGIN: That I couldn't say. I've been out of it for many years. I was appointed to the Arizona Department of Economic Security as an advisory board member which I held for four years. I was appointed by Governor Bolin. So I was active on that committee, Arizona Department of Economic Security, for four years. By the way, Alan Rosenberg was chairman for a number of years also. KOFMAN: How did you happen to get that appointment? That's interesting. I mean, not that you didn't deserve it, but you must have been active in a number of things to have brought you to the Governor's attention. SCHURGIN: Yes, I think Governor Bolin recognized my activity in the Phoenix Chamber of Commerce and on the Electric League and in the electrical industry and chose me to become an advisor, representing the wholesale end of it. See, the Department of Economic Security had lawyers, had doctors, one from each industry, retail, so on and so forth, as advisors to the Department of Economic Security. KOFMAN: Tell me about the lighting laboratory that you had. SCHURGIN: Well, I founded the Lighthouse, which was a lighting fixture company in 1946 in Phoenix. It was small, there were a number of other lighting fixture places. Eckley was one of them. Although we specialized more in commercial lighting. So when we moved the Lighthouse to Camelback and 12th Street we designed it so that it would have a lighting laboratory where a businessman could come in and see the different shades of fluorescent lighting, slim-line lighting, incandescent lighting and mercury vapor lighting, and what the advantages were and the disadvantages were in lighting his business, in lighting his parking lot or in lighting anything that he was interested in. So that's what we called a lighthouse laboratory. KOFMAN: I assume that was very successful. SCHURGIN: Yes, it was. Architects and engineers used it to see what the latest developments were in the lighting industry. That was just the retail end of my business besides the four branches of the wholesale end of the electrical industry that I had. I had a branch in Mesa, I had one in Tucson and two in Phoenix. KOFMAN: This was the wholesale distributorship? SCHURGIN: That was the wholesale and the Lighthouse was the retail end of the lighting fixture business. KOFMAN: And yet that also has the laboratory where he could come in there, see the lighting that was available and then buy it from the wholesale distributorship, is that correct? SCHURGIN: Or buy it retail at the Lighthouse. KOFMAN: Right. SCHURGIN: To me that was quite an accomplishment. I believe it was the first one that was ever attempted in the state of Arizona, maybe even in the whole country because I'd never heard of one before. But I had attended lighting seminars as far back as 1949 at Nila Park, the General Electric headquarters. I had been to Danvers, Massachusetts, which is the headquarters of Sylvania Lighting. So I had quite a background as far as lighting was concerned, which was a strong point in my business, the electrical wholesale business. We carried the largest stock of lighting fixtures in the state of Arizona, besides the electrical supplies. KOFMAN: Now, have you sold out all the lighting -- SCHURGIN: Yes, a company called Amfac bought my business in 1974 because it was the largest independent electrical business in the state. They wanted four outlets, so they bought lock, stock and barrel. But they didn't want the Lighthouse, so I sold the Lighthouse for them to an independent distributor. A Jewish boy who used to be my manager was one of the part owners of the Lighthouse when I sold it. KOFMAN: What was his name? SCHURGIN: His name was Art Goldhagen. I brought Art Goldhagen to Phoenix, Arizona from New Rochelle, New York to manage my Lighthouse when it was downtown on East Washington Street. Then when I moved it up to Camelback and 12th Street he was my manager there. His assistant was another Jewish boy by the name of Abe Miller. Abe Miller today started his own business and is very successful at it called Miller Lighting or Miller Fixture Company. When I sold my business he went and started his own business. That's his business today. My wife was associated with me from the very first day that I came out of the Army. She was my secretary and my vice president as well. I've never had a partner, but in Arizona of course, as you know, I've always had a partner, since it's a community property state. KOFMAN: She worked in the office with you? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. I used to travel quite a bit and she ran the office for me when I was gone. As I told you, we started very, very small on 608 South Central. Then we moved to 402 West Madison. Then we built our own building at 1530 East Washington Street. This was in 1955. From there we branched out into Mesa and into two other warehouses and into the Lighthouse. KOFMAN: Sam, I really want to thank you for all the lovely conversations, memories, recollections, and I appreciate the opportunity to spend the time with you today. I've enjoyed it and I know that anyone listening to this or reading it later is going to enjoy it as much as I have. Thanks again. SCHURGIN: I really didn't elaborate on some of the things that I wanted to, especially some of the early pioneers, let's say in the city of Safford or in small towns in Arizona that I used to call upon. KOFMAN: Okay, what do you want to tell me about these families? We don't have to stop now. SCHURGIN: Well, as I told you, I used to travel the entire state and I've told you all about that previously. But I remember distinctly traveling and trying to collect money for the United Jewish Welfare Fund. I'd call on every little town. For example, in Globe, Arizona I used to call on the Lantins to collect money. There was a Jewish manager of Given Brothers up there. In Miami we had one Jewish merchant. In Safford there were at least eight Jewish merchants that I used to call on. I'll give you some of their names. I can't remember them all. There was the Bellmans, B-e-1-1-m-a-n; there was Horwitz, who had a furniture store. KOFMAN: Horwitz? SCHURGIN: H-o-r-w-i-t-z in Safford. I'm going back pre-World War II, as you know, 1939 and 1940 and 1941. I remember Krupps in Safford. The Krupps were very famous because the Krupps were from El Paso and they opened up in Safford. As a matter of fact one of the Krupps lived in Phoenix, I'm trying to remember who it was, a salesman, I think he represented Levi Straus for many years here in Phoenix. These were some of the families I used to contact. I remember there was one Jewish family in Duncan. I can't remember the name. But the Lehmans were in Lordsburg, the Lehmans were in Safford, the Lehmans were in Winslow and the Lehmans were in Duncan. I called on all of them for money. Clifton and Morenci had one or two Jewish merchants at that time. KOFMAN: Okay. Now, here you were traveling. Here there were three Jewish families there, two Jewish families there. From your point of view or from what you remember, how Jewish could these families be? Did they manage to get together at some time and maybe have a service or two? Did they come to Phoenix or did they just not do anything? SCHURGIN: No, I can remember most of them either going to Tucson or to Phoenix for the high holidays. I remember distinctly Holbrook, Arizona, A & B Schuster Company. One of the oldest families in the state of Arizona, I think their name was Lishinsky. They went to Tucson for the high holidays. The Schusters I think went to El Paso or Tucson for the high holidays. The people from Safford went to El Paso for the high holidays. The people from Yuma used to go to San Diego. They were oriented there. The man from Flagstaff, I remember Ben Fine used to come to Phoenix for the holidays. Certainly, at least once a year they would come to Phoenix or Tucson for the high holidays. They were Jewish in every single way but as individuals in a Gentile community or a Christian community they couldn't practice their Judaism. However, any Jew going through Flagstaff or through any one of these small communities, finding out that there was a Jewish person there, always contacted that one person for a handout or something to help them through, to get through to California or wherever he was going. KOFMAN: That's interesting. It might make it dangerous to be the only Jew in town, if somebody always going to come. SCHURGIN: That's right. It was extremely dangerous because every hobo and every poor family that came through town saw you and wanted something or asked you for some money. The same thing applied to Charlie Korrick or to any one of the old-timers who lived in Tucson or in Phoenix, Arizona. KOFMAN: Did you ever go to Tombstone or was that town already a ghost town? SCHURGIN: No. As a matter of fact, Tombstone had the Rosens. Are you familiar with the Rosens, the head of the [Israel] bonds drive here in Phoenix? His father settled in Tombstone, Arizona before they moved to Tucson. Sid Rosen was the head of the bonds for the state of Arizona. They lived in a town called Tombstone. KOFMAN: What did his father do there? Dry goods store again? SCHURGIN: I can't remember. I believe you better ask Sid about that. But his father moved from Tombstone to Phoenix. His father came out here, I think, for the children's health or somebody' s health in the family. In those days, everybody came out for their health or they were crazy, one or the other. KOFMAN: Then they would have come out later, probably in the 40's, you think? SCHURGIN: I think you better ask Sid about that. I don't remember the year that they came to Tombstone. KOFMAN: Tombstone, by that time, could not have been much of a going town. SCHURGIN: No. And Bisbee had a Jewish family in the dry goods business. Douglas had the Levys Department Store and the Ilitsky Furniture Store. Nogales of course is famous; the Capin family the Bracker family, the Levy family, the Rochlin family. By the way, Rochlin is a very famous name in Nogales. He was mayor of the city of Nogales and he was a personal friend of mine. They moved to California. I don't know whether there are any Rochlins left. Let me skip again to Yuma. Yuma had two or three Jewish families who were oriented to San Diego. I think there was one Jewish merchant in Kingman who I used to call on. KOFMAN: But these people all tried to go somewhere for the high holidays? SCHURGIN: Oh, yes. KOFMAN: Other than that -- SCHURGIN: They had no opportunity to practice their Judaism. KOFMAN: And yet they all felt, I assume, very much at home in these western cities that they had located in. SCHURGIN: Oh, they were part and parcel of the community, very active in their community, both in a political and a social sense as well. Most Jewish people are not loners. Most of them are extroverts and are active in their community, either in a business or in a social sense. That's part and parcel of our heritage. There's a Hebrew saying called "Kol Yisrael Aray Vim Zeh Bozeh": Every Jew is responsible for every other Jew. KOFMAN: That's a good saying. Maybe with that I'll thank you again very much for all these wonderful memories. SCHURGIN: You're welcome. [end of transcript]