..inte: Rabbi Harry Z. Schechtman ..intr: Bobbi Kurn ..da: 1990 ..cp: 1988.060.083 Rabbi Harry Schechtman heads the Torah processional as they line up for the dedication of Beth El Synagogue, Third Avenue and McDowell, 1951. ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Rabbi Harry Z. Schechtman February 15, 1990 Transcriber: Karen Hirsch Interviewer: Bobbi Kurn Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log for Rabbi Harry Schechtman Interview Pages I - 2 Family and educational history. 2 - 11 Rabbinic job history; army chaplain during World War II. Stationed in Joplin, Missouri; overseas in Okinawa. Returned to U.S. in 1946. Served as rabbi in South Bend, Indiana 1946-1949. 12 - 13 Offered job at Beth El in Phoenix in 1949. Moved to Phoenix with his family. First impressions; 3,000 Jews in Phoenix. Leaders included Sam Schurgin, Sam Smith, Morris Meckler. Replaced Rabbi Barack. i4 - 15 Bought first home at 90 W. Culver. Neighbor was Pearl Newmark's family. 16 - 17 Beth El changed from Orthodox to Conservative, however retained daily Orthodox services. Acceptance of congregation to change. 18 - 19 Organization of Beth El; focus on religious school, number of students; membership. 20 Rabbi Paru as schochet; secretary Eleanor Clausman. 21 - 24 Synagogue leadership: Sam Smith, Sam Schurgin, Morris Meckler, Harry Zeitlin, Morris Kort. Men's Club and Sisterhood strong; young peoples league; choir with Smith boys (Jerry, Harry, Ted and Irving), Joe Feld. Rabbi's salary; community leaders included Sam Feinberg and Jack Hoffman ("Hoffmanville"). 24 - 26 Chaplaincy in Litchfield, Arizona. 26 - 27 Synagogue moved. Dedication of Beth Israel in 1949. Rabbi Krohn and joint activities between two synagogues. 28 - 30 Volunteer community activities: KPHO-TV, "Every Man's Bible" show. Synagogue activities, holidays including annual Purim Ball. 31 - 32 Marriages and conversions. 32 - 33 Fund raising; more synagogue activities. Men's Club speakers; Rabbi Plotkin joined Beth Israel in 1955. 34 Beth El enlarged; raised $250,000.00 in two years. 35 - 36 Teachers included Mrs. Mathes; Cantor Rothstein. Burning of mortgage in 1954; Sam Smith, Hy Dreiseszun and Howard Tocker mentioned. 37 Jewish Community Center dedicated. 38 - 40 Positions after leaving Beth El in 1956. 41 - 44 Returned to Phoenix in 1984. Two daughters (Fay Paller and Judy Siegel) live here. Minimal involvement at Beth El today; other rabbis who served at Beth El after Schechtman; congregants who used to be his students still active at Beth El include Herbie Smith, Teddy Kort, Jonah Zeitland's son and Herbie Dreiseszun. 44 - 45 Bar mitzvah celebrations. Beginning Beth Hebrew Congregation. 45 - 47 Air conditioning in Phoenix; traveling to California in the summertime in the 1950s. 48 - 52 Keeping kosher in Phoenix in the 1950s; Jerry Klein chairman of Va'd Hakashrut. Gross Delicatessen; Katz and Forman butchers. Rabbi Harry Schechtman Interview Kurn: My name is Bobbie Kurn and I am a volunteer with the Arizona Jewish Historical Society. Today is February the fifteenth, 1990, and I am at the home of Rabbi Harry Zu, Z. Schechtman. We are at 6501 North 17th Avenue, apartment 15. in Phoenix. His telephone number is 433-0151. He is a retired rabbi. He was born July 3, 1906. He was born in New York City, arrived in Arizona in August of 1949 from South Bend, Indiana. His parents' names are Jacob and Fannie, his wife's name is Ruth, their children are Fay Paller, her son is Rabbi Robert Schechtman and daughter Judy Siegel. His education was a BA from City College in New York and an MA in Education. He went to ASU, the Jewish Theological Seminary, DDJTS and Yeshiva University. Okay. Well Rabbi, we want, I believe I knew your daughter. Schechtman: Fay, Fay Paller? Kurn: Sure, of course, yes. We are in the same vintage. (several voices speaking at once) Kurn: I want to thank you very much for allowing me to come into your home ... Schechtman: Don't mention it. Kurn: ... and to interview you and, in the, if I slow down to write down names it's because it's important that we do have everybody's name. And if I have a question about spelling, I will stop and ask you about spelling. Schechtman: All right. Kurn: Um, I'd like to go back, ah, where were your parents born? Schechtman: My mother was born in Russia and my father was born in Romania. Kurn: And when did they come to the United States? Schechtman: Well, ah, they came first to England, and they lived there seven years and then they came here in 1904. And ah, at that time I had two brothers and two sister. Kurn: Let me make sure, let me just make sure ... 1,2,3 .... you were saying? Schechtman: Ah, at that time, I had two brothers and two sisters and I was born here. They were born, my sisters, my older brother and sister were born in Europe, and my other sister was born in England, and I was born here ... on the East Side of New York. And I was raised on the East Side and ah, my father died when I was nine years old, and I was raised by my mother. She never remarried. And I went to the public schools in New York and ah, then to Junior High School and at the age of fifteen I entered the ah, what was at that time called the "Rabbi Isaac Elkanan Theological Seminary Kurn: Say it again. Schechtman: Rabbi Isaac Elkanan Theological Seminary, which is now part of the Rabbinical School of Yeshiva University. They call it for short RIETS (R-I-E-T-S), which is Rabbi Isaac Elkanan Theological Seminary. (Laughter) And I studied there and I also went to the City College in New York while I was going to the Yeshiva. And then I graduated from City College in 1931 and I obtained my rabbinic degree from the Yeshiva in 1935. Ah, my first position was as a rabbi in Brooklyn, New York. In fact it was in the Jewish Children's Orphan Home and they had a synagogue attached to the Orphan Home. It was a, very interesting, interesting work with the children and with the congregation there. And then I was offered a position in Memphis, Tennessee. Do you want my whole history? Kurn: You bet. Schechtman: Okay, it's a long history. I was offered a position in Memphis, Tennessee to be the assistant rabbi and the director of the community Hebrew school that they had there in Memphis. And I stayed there about, I think about, a year and a half and I was offered a position in, from there in Beaumont, Texas. That's where my son was born, my daughter Fay was born, by the way, in Brooklyn, New York, at the Brooklyn Jewish Hospital. And my son Robby was born in Beaumont, Texas. And I stayed in Texas, not too long, and I was offered a position in, ah, East St. Louis, Illinois. While in East St. Louis, Illinois the World War started. So in 1942 I volunteered as chaplain, because rabbis were not drafted. So I volunteered as chaplain when I saw that some of my Sunday School graduates were entering the army, I came home; I told my wife, "Honey, it's time for me to go." So, I ah, my East St. Louis congregation said they'd hold the congregation open for me when the war was over. They thought maybe the war would be over in maybe a year or two, but it wasn't. (Laughter) In the meantime I was in the army for four years and ah, from East St. Louis I had to go to chaplain school which was at that time was in, at Harvard, chaplain school, I was there for four weeks, and from there I got my first assignment to Camp Crowder, Missouri, it was a Signal Corps camp. And after being there for two years, piddling around while the war was going on and I had no share in it, I came home and I told my wife that I want to go overseas, she, she thought I was crazy. But, not only did she, but even the senior chaplain in that Camp Crowder and the commander at Camp Crowder said to me, "What do you want to go overseas for, we need you here." So I said, Well, it seems peculiar that I should be in a war and yet there's no war here". So, I had, Camp Crowder was a tough job because they had forty-five hundred Jewish men in Camp Crowder, Missouri, in the Signal Corps Camp. In fact I had the largest Jewish service I think in history. We had engaged the field house in Neosho, Missouri for the service and we had nearly five thousand people at that Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur service. We had a Passover Seder with close to three thousand people. So I figured that it was about time I got overseas, and then besides the consultation with these men. I used to come home sometimes at two o'clock in the morning. We lived in Joplin, Missouri, because Neosho didn't have any decent place to live, we lived in Joplin which was about 25 miles from camp. So I traveled back and forth every day, and so I got home at two o'clock in the morning. We had lines of men waiting to consult the chaplain because they were, the Signal Corp especially, the army was very, I should say, very unintelligent at that time. You had men that they, that they ah, taught them radio, ah, activity. And then they made them climb, climb poles. When they could climb poles they put them in radio. It was a whole mix up there. So, they always came with complaints and I had to go to the, to their commanders and see, see what I could do for them. it was a big job. Kurn: Now why were there so many Jewish soldiers there? Schechtman: Well, it happened that, this, these Signal Corps men are placed in first in what they call the E.R.C., the Enlisted Reserve Corps, in the eastside, eastside state, especially in New York. And these E.R.C. men were promised that if they get through with a certain number of years of training it put them in officers training. Yet when the war went on, they needed these E.R.C. men to supersede the Signal Corps men. So they sent them from the East, down to Camp. . . , either Fort Monmouth, Fort Monmouth, New Jersey and Camp Crowder, Missouri were the two big Signal Corps camps. So a lot of men were sent from Ft. Monmouth to Camp Crowder, Missouri and they came there with complaints. So they had a lot of, what they called ah, T.R.S. slips, they used to call them in the army. Kurn: Just a minute, let me ... okay, you were saying? Schechtman: The time I was in Camp Crowder, Missouri, we lived in Joplin for about two years. And then when I asked for overseas, I ah, in fact they didn't want to send me at first because I had a little bit, an enlarged heart. So the doctor said, "But if you want to go, go ahead." So, so when I came home and told my wife I'm going overseas. I got my orders. She just broke out in hives. She got so sick. So I had to take her back home to New York to her parents. Her father was a rabbi on the East Side of New York. I brought her home and then I had to go to chaplain school for four weeks at Harvard, they had a chaplain school, and then I, ah, oh no excuse me, no that was the time when I had to bring her home when I had to go overseas. And ah, I had to catch the plane to go ah, Camp Beal, California. While I was in Camp Crowder a peculiar thing happened. I needed a car, to get from, from Joplin to the camp. So I went to Jewish Welfare Board and they lent me six hundred dollars to buy an automobile, an old car. When I had to go overseas, I sold the car back to the same place that I bought it and they returned the same money. It cost the same thing. So then before I went overseas, I went back to the Jewish Welfare Board and I brought them back the check for six hundred dollars. They said, "What are you doing? I said, "I'm giving you back the check for the...." They said, "Chaplains never bring back money here." (Laughter) Kurn: I love it. Schechtman: So they said, they were going to frame the check. (Laughter) So anyway, I ah, I had to catch a plane to Camp Beal, California and ah, my wife stayed with her sister at that time in Borough Park in Brooklyn, New York. And my ah, my brother-in-law was driving me to La Guardia Airport to get the, get the plane, it was in February of, of ah, '45, and the snow on the ground, it was icy, and ah, he couldn't get off the right exit to get to La Guardia, so he came late and the plane took off before I got there. And my wife is yelling, "Honey, they're going to court martial you. You're not going to get there on time." Kurn: She said what? Schechtman: They're going to court martial me because I wasn't going to get there on time. and she started running and she slipped on the ice and she fell like hell, and I picked her up, and we had a time. So of course, and before I left my two kids and by that time Fay and Bobby, my Judy wasn't born yet, they wouldn't let me go they were crying, you know, "Daddy, when will we see you again." All that business you know. So, ah, so then we came back to her sister's house and I said, "Look, tomorrow morning, I go to the airport by myself. You stay here with the kids, and, ah, I'll get there on time." So I got on the plane, and the plane had a change in Salt Lake City and I called the adjutant at Camp Beal, California and I told him, "Look, I'll never get there on time." I had to report at five-thirty I think it was, or nine o'clock in the morning. I'll never make it there on time. I was stopped there in Salt Lake City. So he says to me, "Ah, don't worry, there's plenty of time, you don't have to be here on time." I got so mad, I thought I'd take a plane and go back home, I got so mad. You know, the army, hurry up and wait. Well, finally I got to Camp Beal and I stayed there what, about two weeks, before they transferred me to ah, to Fort Lawton, in Seattle, Washington, from there we took off to ah, to Hawaii. I was in Hawaii for twelve days. Ah, I missed my outfit because they had to go there a long time before but I had about twelve days to get some practice in, in ah, in guerilla warfare, because the Japanese didn't, don't recognize the Geneva Convention. So they taught the chaplains how to shoot. So I had to get target practice and all that stuff and I had to get a carbine to shoot with and all that. And also a gun, and from Hawaii we took off; in April the invasion of Okinawa. Another funny thing happened. I told my assistant, every chaplain has an assistant, I told my assistant, "Get all the matzahs, and the gefilte fish and everything, put them on board the ship because, we'll be on the ship during Passover." I think Passover came out on March 28th that year. So he put all the matzahs and the gefilte fish cans and all that stuff on the ship and ah, and then we took off for the invasion. It was not a very, a very enjoyable trip, but, the Japs, with their submarines trying to get our ship, you know, we had to twist around all the time, we had a, some, ah, some bombs trying to get us, you know, the way the invasion troops go. So anyway we finally got on, on Passover, on March 28th, get my assistant, get the matzahs and stuff to make the Passover Seder, and we had about 35 Jewish men on the ship at that time. We were to have Passover Seder on the ship. We go up on the ship, on the deck, nothing's there. So I said to the captain, I said, "What happened to all our stuff?" He said, "I don't know. Maybe they threw it down in the hold in the ship somewhere." Well, we went down into the hold, in the hold of the ship and all the jeeps and the trucks and we couldn't find anything there. This was about a day, I think, about a day before Passover. So I said to the captain, I said, "Well, look, give me a boat, and let me go out to the island whenever we dock and I'm sure there's a Jewish chaplain there, I know there is one." Because Chaplain Charles Schulman form Chicago was supposed to be the chaplain on the island there. "I'll go to the chaplain and maybe I'll- find some Passover stuff." And sure enough, we got a boat, some of the officers said, "Where are you going? We'll go off on the boat with you, we'll get a drink when we dock. " You know, they couldn't drink on the ship. So we got off when we hit dock and I went to the chaplain and sure enough, there was a pile of matzahs and gefilte fish and all that stuff and wine and the kosher wine and all that. So the, the, officers helped me with the, with the cartons and stuff and put them on the boat and took them to the, back to the ship. We had a Passover Seder on the ship. The funny thing was that I complained to the Navy, the Navy people on the ship, the cups they gave us for, for the, for the wine, I poured the wine in it and it spilled right out, the cups were so, the paper cups were so thin. Well we got through with the Seder, in fact some of the Christian officers wanted to be at the Seder, to see what a Passover Seder was. We had a very nice Seder there. Well anyway we went out and we docked in, I mean ah, in Okinawa. Luckily the, the Japanese were waiting for us, and as you get to the island of Okinawa but with our strategy, instead of going right to the island they went around to the China Sea and we entered Okinawa through the back way so the Japanese couldn't get us. And ah, at that time, the Marines had already arrived and they cleared out part of the island, and ah, in fact we were on the ship when President Roosevelt died. We got the news that morning you know, it was like, like a, like our father died. All of us. The men were actually crying. It was a terrible, terrible feeling that the President died. It was April the 12th, 1945. So ah, well, then we had to get off the ship, we had to hit the island, and ah, we did, ah, on the landing boat. The Japs were of course trying to get us at that time too, and ah, the Kamikaze planes started on our ship. Luckily, it just passed our ship and hit the ship right next to ours. We were lucky. So then we got on the island and ah, we had our little place there. And what I always talk about when I speak about our arrival on Okinawa was there we saw the true interfaith gathering. We had four chaplains: we had two Protestant chaplains, one Catholic chaplain and myself, the Jewish chaplain. When we hit the island, the four of us we got on the island, and we started with "the Lord is my shepherd" all four of us. And with the bombs coming on, you know, like the "bombs bursting in air" song. And we finally got our place to, to pitch our tents and, we, and we stayed there. Another funny thing with the island, with the army. The MP's were supposed to get there before the chaplains; chaplains got there first. The MP's were supposed to protect us, we got there first. So that night we had to stand guard. So I was elected to stand guard from ten that night 'till twelve, then to midnight, And here you have the Japs with their planes coming down all round us you know. And as I was standing guard, I hear somebody walking in the bushes over there. And we had certain words that we had to say, like, with an "1" in each word, because the Japs can't say an "1" so we used to have, for instance, one guy would be there "sit" and the man who was coming, if he was not a Jap, would have to say something like ah, ah, "salami" or something with an "1", see. So I'm standing guard there and I hear somebody walking in the bushes and I yell out, "Halt". And I said "silt?" and I hear no answer. And I heard again, whoever it was coming closer and closer. And I put a bullet in my carbine ready to shoot. And thank God I didn't. I yelled "Halt, or I'm going to shoot." And I was scared myself. And I yelled, "H-h-h-alt", you know. (Laughter) Well the fellow didn't halt, he finally came out with the other word he was supposed to say and he came over and he says, I said, "I would have shot you if you hadn't said the word." He said, "I'll tell you frankly chaplain, I was so scared myself, I forgot the word." (Laughter) So anyway, I was in Okinawa for ah, until the end of the war. Ah, the, I think the Okinawan peace was signed in August of 1945. But there was a three month, three month battle, my job was to go around to all the camps and see that the chaplains were doing their jobs, and so on, because I was with the, with the 10th Army Headquarters. And, in fact, our General was killed in that battle, General Buckner was killed in May of 1945. And then General Stillwell took over. Joe Stillwell? He took over. And so we won the battle of Okinawa, and Japan, ah with the atomic bomb, and ah, Japan surrendered. And I still had to stay on the island until March of '46, because there weren't, enough boats to get the men home. So I finally got home in March of '46 because I had three months of leave. May of '46 I wrote to the Yeshiva, I wanted a position. So they sent me to South Bend, Indiana. I was there for three years, from South Bend ah, somebody from Phoenix came up to South Bend and told me that they need a rabbi in Phoenix,-Arizona. I'll try out Phoenix and see what, see what it's like. So I told my people in South Bend that I'm going down to leave. I'm going to Phoenix. So I was the rabbi in Phoenix from 1949 to 1956. Kurn: Alright, now you've got, to tell me what Phoenix was like when you first got here. Schechtman: Well, when I first got here I think they had about ah, population was about one hundred sixty thousand people in Phoenix at that time. Kurn: People. Schechtman: Yeah, people. Kurn: Okay. Schechtman: Jewish community had about maybe three thousand, three thousand Jews in the whole area. Kurn: How did you get here? How did you travel? Schechtman: I came here by train. Kurn: Golden State? Schechtman: Ah, no it was the South Pacific, South Pacific Railroad. Kurn: And what was your impression when you first got off the train? Schechtman: Well when I first got off the train I was hit by, I just stood there, it was as if I was hit by a wall, by a wall of heat. Kurn: It was August, or July? Schechtman: It was August. It was so hot it was awful. So, I was met by Sam Schurgin, Sam Smith, and Morris Meckler. He said to me, "Rabbi, we know what you're going through." (Laughter) "We'll take you to the Westward Ho for lunch and you'll cool off over there." So then we went to the Westward Ho and ah, we discussed the situation and ah, we signed a contract and I, and I got the position. Kurn: Right there at the hotel? Schechtman: No, no, they took me to the synagogue and I spoke there that Friday night at services. And they were satisfied with what they saw and what they heard and ah, we signed a contract. And I went home and I got my wife and my two children and we drove, ah, we drove from South Bend to Phoenix. Kurn: Why did they need a new rabbi? Schechtman: Rabbi Barack was the rabbi there at that time. Kurn: How do you spell that? Schechtman: B-A-R-A-C-K, Barack, and I think he wanted to leave for some reason or another. And he got another position in, I think Sheboygen, Wisconsin. And so they, ah, and that was, the little synagogue they had at, (wrong information). And when they built this new synagogue, I, I, I, maybe they felt they wanted to get a different rabbi, I don't know what the situation was really, why they wanted a change. And ah, so we signed a contract and I went home, back to South Bend and I took my wife and two children and we drove from there, from South Bend to Phoenix. I asked the Triple A to give me a, you know, the trip tickets you know that they give you' Well, I could have shot them for the trip ticket that they gave me. We had to climb up on the Salt River Canyon, to eight thousand feet, in that car, on that narrow, dirty road, and my wife is yelling, "Honey, don't look. Beautiful scenery, but don't look. Look straight ahead." (Laughter) My little, my little Fay, she got so red from the heat. So, no my little Judy, Judy was born in South Bend, that's right Judy was born in South Bend, Indiana. And ah, so the kids were in the car, and we drove through the Salt River Canyon, and we got to Phoenix and we settled in Phoenix. Kurn:: Wait a minute, wait a minute. How did you find a house? Schechtman: Morris Meckler had an apartment house on Roosevelt, Roosevelt Avenue. At that time, Camelback Road was the end of Phoenix. Kurn: What do you mean, the end of Phoenix? Schechtman: Because after that it was Sunnyslope already. Kurn: And what was in Sunnyslope? Schechtman: I don't know, because, that was, we, we very seldom went there. Camelback was the end, that's as far as it goes, Camelback. And ah, this house was on Roosevelt, the Roosevelt area. So we stayed there for a short time. Kurn: Just rented. Schechtman: Just rented, yeah. It was not a very nice apartment. So we rented an apartment from a Mrs. Barer. Do you know ah, what was her daughter's name ... Kurn: How do you spell "Barer". Schechtman: B-A-R-E-R. Let's see her daughter's name is in here someplace ... Kurn: That's okay. Schechtman: Her daughter became, was the Sisterhood president at that time. And we stayed there oh, for a few months, and then we bought a house on 90 West Culver. And that was three blocks away from the synagogue. Kurn: What kind of house was it? Schechtman: It was a nice house, it was a ah, two bedroom, nice big living room, nice porch, in fact I remember it had a lot of bushes growing out by the porch and my little Judy used to love to jump over the bushes. (Laughter) Kurn: Do you remember what you bought it for? Schechtman: Ah, how many? (Aside) Maybe she would know, I don't remember. We bought it from a member of the congregation, a widow, Morris wanted to sell the house. Kurn: (to Mrs. Schechtman) We were wondering what you paid for your first house, when you bought your first house? Schechtman: ... on 90 West Culver. Do you Remember what we paid for it? Mrs. Schechtman: Eleven-Five, but we had to invest another five thousand because we remodeled it. We added another bathroom and we ah, broke the wall down between the living room and dining room so that we could have more space when I had the women over for meetings and for the family and guests. Kurn: That's great. Schechtman: Yes, she was always active with the Sisterhood. Kurn: Were there other Jewish people in the neighborhood? Mrs. Schechtman: Yes, Pearl Newmark, her parents lived just a few houses down on Culver. And ah.... Schechtman: Do you remember the names? (Laughter) Mrs. Schechtman: That's what happens when you get old, you forget names. Kurn: That's okay. So tell me about the synagogue in those days. Mrs. Schechtman: There were a lot of Jewish people living in the area, because they walked to shul. Schechtman: You see Beth El really started off as an Orthodox congregation. Kurn: As a what? Schechtman: An Orthodox congregation. Kurn: Was it Orthodox when you came to town? Schechtman: Yea, yea, it was Orthodox. And ah, after a year or so we changed to a Conservative. Kurn: Why? Schechtman: Well, because I had a little, ah, being I was an Orthodox Rabbi, I was on the outs a little bit with some of the Orthodox activities. So I switched over from the Rabbinical Council which was Orthodox to the Rabbinical Assembly which was Conservative. And then the synagogue went along with me and they changed to becoming a Conservative synagogue although we did have Orthodox services every day. And on the holidays we'd have a Conservative service upstairs and an Orthodox service downstairs, in the auditorium. Kurn: At the same time? Schechtman: At the same time. Mrs. Schechtman: We had both groups belonging to the synagogue. Schechtman: Except that on the holidays I would go downstairs and deliver a sermon in Yiddish to the Orthodox services, after the English sermon upstairs. Kurn: So there, there was just one rabbi and you would either be upstairs with... Schechtman: Up and down, up and down. Kurn: With Conservative or downstairs with the Orthodox. Schechtman: With the Orthodox, that's right. Kurn: What kind of run-ins did you have with the Orthodox? Schechtman: Well, I, I was not too keen about the way they ah, gave their "chescher" on certain products. Kurn: Like? Schechtman: At that time, Crisco was always a kosher product. And ah, the Crisco that was manufactured in St. Louis at that time, they had some outs with the company there and the Crisco company there refused to, to pay them what they wanted. And so they told us at the Rabbinical Council meeting that we should tell our congregants not to use Crisco. So, me with my big mouth, I got up at the meeting and I immediately said that because they didn't want to pay what you want therefore You're going to consider an article, which was always kosher, you're going to consider it not kosher, and you want me to tell that to my congregation? I can't do that. if that's the way you're going to run your business, I'm through. And I walked out. Kurn: That was here in Phoenix? Schechtman: No, that was at a convention we had in Detroit at that time. Kurn: What year was this? Schechtman: 1951, abut that time, '52. So we became Conservative at that time. Kurn: Did you change the by-laws? Schechtman: No, we didn't have any by-laws really. We just decided we were going to become Conservative, and so we did. Kurn: Was there a lot of disagreement? Schechtman: No, no because they didn't decide at that time to ah, to join the United Synagogue, which was the, the laymans Conservative group. So just I myself joined the Rabbinical Conservative group, the Rabbinical Assembly. But the synagogue said they would go along with me and we conducted Conservative services upstairs. Kurn: Did most of the people go upstairs? Schechtman: Oh yeah. Kurn: Or was it 50-50 ... Schechtman: No, even the Orthodox would come upstairs to the Friday evening services. Kurn: Oh you had Friday evening. Schechtman: Friday evening, we had our Friday evening services, yeah, even Saturday morning they would still come up, because most of our services was really more of a right Conservative service. We had the regular Orthodox prayers and so on, just that the sermon was in English, and I would read an English prayer once in a while. So the service was really not a right Conservative, so most of the people would come upstairs. It was just on the Holidays, and during the week, that they had the special Orthodox services downstairs in the auditorium. Kurn: And that was mostly Hebrew prayers? Schechtman: Yeah, um hum. Kurn: Women allowed downstairs? Schechtman: Oh, yeah. They sat separate, on the side, separate. Kurn: And upstairs, did the women sit with their ... Schechtman: They sat together, yeah, upstairs it was a combined service. Men and women sat together upstairs. And they didn't complain. And the Orthodox didn't complain either, when they came to services upstairs. Kurn: Did you have two torahs, and two arks? Schechtman: No, one ark. Kurn: Upstairs and downstairs? Schechtman: No we had a separate one downstairs. Yeah. And a ... Kurn: And two torahs? Schechtman: Oh yeah, several Torahs. Kurn: Did you? Schechtman: Oh yeah. We had quite a few, Sefer torahs they called them. Kurn: Right. And the children? Did you have a religious school when you first came here? Schechtman: I organized a religious school, we had about three hundred fifty children in our religious school. We finally worked up to about six hundred fifty members in our congregation. Six hundred fifty families in the congregation. And ah, we had three hundred fifty children in our religious school, we had religious school during the week on Mondays and Wednesdays, and Sunday we had a Sunday school on Sunday morning. We also had confirmation, the children who had finished religious school at the age of thirteen and became bar mitzvah, we kept them even after bar mitzvah for two more years to become confirmed. So we had confirmation classes. We also had Adult Education. And we had a very fine turn-outs for various courses in Jewish history, and Hebrew reading and Hebrew language, and even in some Talmud. In the evenings we had these Adult Education classes.Kurn: What kind of staff did you have when you first came here? Schechtman: Well, when I first came ... Kurn: Was that 1949? Schechtman: In 1949, we had a secretary, and we had a Shamus in the synagogue, a sexton, and the sexton also acted as cantor, because we had no cantor at the time, so he was also the cantor. We also had this Mr. Paru, now, now they call him Rabbi Paru, who would read from the Torah, and he was also a schochet, a slaughterer. And there was also a Rabbi Dow here, who was also a slaughterer, and he would slaughter the COWS. Ah, there was also at that time a slaughter house in town here at that time, the Abos Packing Company. And Rabbi Dow would go there to slaughter the, the animals and I would have to go with him to see that he does it in a kosher way. Kurn: So you had kosher meat. Schechtman: Oh yeah, we had kosher meat and we had kosher poultry coming in from California. Kurn: Do you remember the secretary's name, when you first cant Schechtman: Ah, I think I have it in the Beth El Echo here somewhere. Kurn: Okay. Schechtman: And then later on, ah, Eleanor Clausman became my secretary, do you know her, Eleanor Clausman? She became my secretary, and she was also a very good worker in the Sisterhood. We became very good friends with her, in fact when she moved to San Jose, California, when we used to go to California we would go and visit her. Kurn: Who was some of your leadership, in 1949? Schechtman: Well, Morris Meckler was the President. Sam Smith was the Vice President. Sam Schurgin was the Secretary. Morris Meckler was President, Harry Zeitlin, first Vice President, Sam Smith, second Vice President, Sam Schurgin, Secretary, and Morris Kort, TreasurerKurn: Kort? Schechtman: Kort, K-0-R-T. That was Teddy Kort's father. Kurn: How did you get along with them? Schechtman: Oh very well, really, we were friendly with all of them. They never had an affair- without. calling us and attending any kind of affair that they had. . . Kurn: What kind of shul politics was going on when you first came? Schechtman: It wasn't bad at all. In fact everybody was very friendly with each other and ah, they were very anxious to get the congregation growing, and so they were anxious to work together. And we organized a very strong Men's Club, Sisterhood was very strong, ah, we organized a young people's league, ah we organized a choir, in fact all the Smith boys, not Donald, but Jerry Smith, Harry Smith, Ted Smith and Irving Smith were in the choir, together with Joe Feld, do you know Joe Feld? And ah, in fact Yom Kippur I used to do the last service for the, Nillah Service, the last service so all these fellas would get around me and we would all sing together, it was a beautiful affair, a beautiful time, a beautiful service. Kurn: Do you remember what they paid you? Schechtman: Ah, I think we started with seven thousand dollars a year at, that time. In time it worked up to nine thousand, that's as high as it went. Kurn: What year was that, at nine thousand? Schechtman: About 1954, 55, around that time because I left in '56. Ah, but ah, at that time Rabbi's salaries were not what they are today. Kurn: That's true. Schechtman: In fact, the men who first come out of the seminary start off with about forty thousand dollars a year. Kurn: How do you feel about that? Schechtman: I, ah, at my age I can't feel anything about it because it was so long ago that I was the Rabbi, the Rabbi here at that time. Kurn: What were some of the stories you can remember, the incidents that took place, some funny little events or stories in 1949 and '50? Schechtman: Well, one funny story happened. Ah, we had a Hebrew School that went for four hours a week, Mondays and Wednesdays. And Sunday morning for two hours. Ah, I decided that four hours a week was not enough. So at one meeting I got up, at one of the congregation meetings, and I said that I'm going to change the schedule from four hours to six hours. So one of the men, I don't want to mention names, one of the men got up and he said, "Six hours a week? You want to make rabbi's out of our children?" (Laughter) So I said to him, "If six hours a week can make a rabbi out of your children, I'll, let them become rabbis. But God help the people of Israel if there are going to be rabbis for six hours a week. " Ah, and then we had ah, we had a very good time with the, the Smith boys. I don't know whether you knew their brother, the half-brother, the ah, Sam, ah, oh what was his name, Feinberg. Sam Feinberg, did you ever know Sam Feinberg? We were very friendly with all of these people. Oh yeah, another, maybe a peculiar story. When they had the United Jewish Appeals, we used to get together. And of course only rich people were asked to give money. And ah, Jack Hoffman, a very generous person, so we're sitting at a meeting and one of the very wealthy people in town here said, "Well, I'm going to give seven thousand dollars." Jack Hoffman gave twenty thousand at that time. So Jack Hoffman said to this, I don't want to mention names, said to this wealthy man, "If all you want to give is seven thousand dollars," he said, "you can take the seven thousand dollars and do something with it." he said "I'll give you, I'll give them seven thousand dollars more, and you can keep your seven thousand dollars." That's the kind of generous people we had here, they were very generous people. Now, you know Hoffman, built what was known later on as "Hoffmanville". Did you ever hear about it? He built a lot of very, very beautiful homes, but very cheap. You could buy a Hoffman home for about nine thousand dollars at that time, and they were beautiful homes. He built about, I think seven hundred homes, here in Phoenix. He built about, I think nine hundred in Tucson. Ah, and then there was another man, Rubenstein, who lived in town here. This, ah, condominium that's on Mary, Maryland Avenue between 17th and 19th Avenue, a whole condominium complex there, was built by this man Rubenstein, another Jewish, very fine philanthropist in town here. So ah, I'm trying to think of what other incidents may have ... Oh yes, when I had all these chaplaincies to go to, to Luke Air Force Base, and to Litchfield, and to Williams Air Force Base in Chandler, ah, and then there was a Naval Depot in the area too that I used to visit with the Jewish men for services ... Kurn: Where was that? Schechtman: I think it was also somewhere close to the Litchfield, Litchfield base. Ah, and that was all volunteer, I volunteered for that.Kurn: What kind of work would you do with them?Schechtman: Well we had services, religious services. And I would listen to their complaints, anything that I could do for it, I would go to, to, to their commander and talk to the commander about them. Some of them wanted to get off for Passover and they, wouldn't let them you know, so I would go to the commander and try to get passes for them. They wanted to go home for the holidays, things that came up. Ah, and by the way, when I was at Camp Crowder, before I went overseas, I had one hundred sixty weddings on the men that were married. And the beautiful thing about it was, that they didn't marry somebody they picked up in camp. All the Jewish men they brought their girlfriends back from, from home. Some of them their mothers came down with their girlfriends, they were married, they were married at the chapel, the Jewish chapel. I had a Jewish chapel for myself. We had so many Jewish men that they gave me a chapel for myself at the, at the camp. So, I was just thinking that ... (End of Side One, Tape One) (Side Two, Tape One) (Interference noises before interview resumes) Schechtman: So ah, I used to have, I used to have, when it came to the time after, after I was here a few years, of course, I got a little increase in salary. So, so they would say, "Why are you a rabbi? You had the chaplaincy in all these camps. You're making a lot of money there." Kurn: Oh, they thought you were getting paid. Let me make sure.. and they didn't pay you ah, extra... Schechtman: No. Kurn: Who would ask you to go to the bases? Schechtman: The, the Jewish Welfare Board, who was in charge at that time of all the chaplaincies in the army, the army and nave. Kurn: Locally? Schechtman: No. Jewish Welfare Board was a New York outfit and ah, the Jewish Welfare Board is a parent organization of all the Jewish Community Centers and the YMHA'S. And during the war, they were given the ah, the ah, duties and the ah, ah, the job, to interview rabbis who wanted to be, who wanted be chaplains. They were, so they were in charge of the chaplaincy, what they called the, ah, Chaplaincy Commission. So ah, when I came down here, they called me and they said, "Look, since you're in Phoenix already, there are all these ah, military installations in, in Phoenix and close to Phoenix, why don't you volunteer to ah, since you're there anyway, volunteer to visit the Jewish men and see what you can do for them, you know, as a chaplain?" So how can you say no, after all, so I went to visit all these ah, different places once a week, to each one of them, conduct a service with them and listen to all their complaints and try to help them out as much as I could, and sometimes bring them some kosher food to eat, some kosher sandwiches you know, and they ah, so that was my job. Kurn: Now ah, the synagogue was still on... Schechtman: On Third Avenue and West McDowell. Kurn: Okay. Schechtman: In fact when I left it was still there. I don't thing they moved from there until about ah, ... Kurn: Is that where they were when you first came to town in '49? Schechtman: Yeah, but at that time they only had the auditorium downstairs. The upstairs was not built yet and the school building wasn't built yet. Kurn: Oh, when did you do that? Schechtman: We did that in 1950, we finished the ah, the new building, the upstairs building, and the school building. They were two different buildings. Kurn: Why did you feel the need to add on? Schechtman: Well because the congregation was growing, and I felt that ah, if we don' t, have a decent synagogue ah, where people can come and ei-ijoy the services, a comfortable synagogue, then people won't come. And at that time, in fact in 1949 we also dedicated the Beth Israel congregation. Beth Israel, Rabbi Krohn was the rabbi there. And they had built a new building on 10th Street and Flower, 10th Avenue rather, on Flower, 10th Avenue and Flower, and ah, in fact I was there with Rabbi Krohn when they dedicated the, Temple Beth Israel. Kurn: What kind of things would you do with Rabbi Krohn, or Beth Israel do with Beth El? Schechtman: Well we used to get together very often for some ah, some holiday programs. Ah, the Sisterhood would get together with their Sisterhood for some programs, some charity affairs, to raise some money. Ah ah, when we had some interfaith meetings, with some of the ministers, Rabbi Krohn and I would get together with some of the ministers in town and ah, we'd meet. I also was a member of the National Conference of Christians and Jews, in town here. And we also organized at that time, ah, Eleanor Roosevelt at that time was very active in this American Association for the United Nations. So we organized a chapter here and I was an officer in that chapter. And ah, and I was called to speak at the Lions Club, at the American Legion, and I was a member of the Jewish War Veterans, ah, and ah, so we, we got together, especially for some Christmas programs that we wanted to join with the non-Jewish community to show our interest in the community in general. Because we wanted to show that the Jewish people are, have their own community and yet they're interested in the overall community. So ah, Rabbi Krohn and I would get together on some of these affairs. Kurn: Just the two of you or you would bring some of your congregants to be involved? Schechtman: It was the two of us mainly. KUR: What percentage of the congregants would come to services? Schechtman: Well we had a large turnout. Friday evening we would have close to five hundred people at services. Kurn: At the beginning of the 50s? Schechtman: At the, around '50, '51, yeah. Kurn: How do you explain that? Schechtman: Well, the synagogue was built in '50, and the Jewish people in the area realized that they had a nice synagogue to go to, and I ah, my name became quite familiar among the Jewish people, and they, I guess they liked what they was and what they heard, and so, so they came. And we did have nice services. They used to like the sermons and so on and ah, and we got a good attendance. Kurn: What kind of reputation did you have? Schechtman: Well, it was the reputation was of somebody who goes out and does a lot of work, and is trying to get the congregation to grow, and we did grown, as I said, to about six hundred fifty family members. Ah, and ah, I used to go to speak to various places, and ah, I was the chaplain, Jewish chaplain at the Arizona State Hospital and ah, at the Florence Penitentiary, I used to go there, for the few Jewish prisoners that they had there. So ah, and I ah, was quite active in any Israeli problem that came up, the land of Israel, and I ah, wasn't too ah, too backward in expressing my opinion about what was going on in Israel, and the opinion of the non-Jewish community towards Israel, and ah, and the Arab community towards Israel and I just ah, delivered quite a few talks, and ah, the newspapers picked them up. I also by the way had a television program, which was called "Every Man's Bible" which went on for two years at KPHO-TV. And I spoke every Tuesday, a fifteen-minute program, which I called "Every Man's Bible". I'm sure KPHO may still have the, may still have it there, I don't know. Ah, and I spoke, I started with the beginning of Genesis, and ah, and every week, the portion of the week, and showed them how interesting to the non-Jewish community was the Jewish community, cause I gave the non-Jewish point of view too about some of these things in the Old Testament. In fact I received letters from Catholic people how much interest there was in those programs. So my name became quite popular in town and ah, people came to synagogue. Kurn: Were you paid for those radio shows? Schechtman: No. It was all volunteer. I made a lot of money voluntarily. (Laughter) Kurn: Did you have holiday celebrations at the synagogue, and if so, which ones? Schechtman: Well, of course Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur there were, we had, as I said, we had services upstairs for the Conservative, services downstairs for the Orthodox and ah, especially for the children on Passover, before Passover we always had a Passover Seder conducted by the children and for the children. And it was a beautiful Seder that they had. On Purim we would have a Purim affair, a masquerade party for the children. We also started at that time, a Purim Ball. And at the Purim Ball we would have a Queen Esther contest. And every organization in town, every Jewish organization would send a contestant, like the B'nai B'rith would send a contestant, Hadassah would send a contestant, the Sisterhoods would send one, Beth Israel would send one and we had judges and they would decide who was the most beautiful Queen Esther. And she would be presented with a diamond ring, and the runner-up would be presented with some other, some other gift that we would give them. Kurn: Donated? Schechtman: Donated, yeah. And that was done in our, in our synagogue, in the auditorium. Kurn: Oh my. Schechtman: And it was a very... that went on year after year all the time that I was here. It was started by our Hebrew School in order to raise funds for the Hebrew School and then the Men's Club took it over. Kurn: How would they raise money? Schechtman: Well people would come, we'd charge admission for the ah, for the Ball, a Purim Ball. We had a band and dancing and refreshments and then we had this contest. Kurn: Do you remember any of the Queen Esters? Schechtman: A Dorthy Keene was one of them, I think I have it in here someplace. Kurn: Oh that's okay. Schechtman: Dorothy Keene was one of them, 'cause my, my privilege was that I kissed every Queen Esther. (Laughter) Kurn: Rabbi ... (Laughter) Schechtman: And ah, it was very interesting. Kurn: And during the week, was the synagogue busy with anything special? Schechtman: Well during the week of course we had our Hebrew School, the Men's Club had their meetings on Sundays, Sisterhood had their meetings, one day, I don't know what day of the week the Sisterhood had their meetings, the ah, we had our adult classes in the evenings, ah, then we had ah, various affairs that went on that were conducted by the Men's Club or the Sisterhood. Kurn: Did you have any teenage dances or any single ... Schechtman: We had Young People's League for teenagers, and they had their affairs there, they had dances, they had parties, they would meet in the synagogue auditorium and they would attract the teenagers from other groups, not just from the synagogue. Kurn: Oh. Schechtman: So it became really a communal organization. Kurn: And you would ah, in marriages, did you conduct any interfaith marriages? Schechtman: No, no, I never believed in any interfaith marriages. We had a lot of weddings here, ah, but no interfaith marriages. I had, I had con-conversions, in fact I had some very good conversions, now what I mean by good conversions it was that these women that I converted remained good Jewish women. And I had one conversion of a ah, woman who was a pharmacist, a Christian girl who was a pharmacist, and she was going to marry a Jewish doctor in town here. And ah, she came in and wanted, she herself, the Jewish doctor didn't ask her, to convert her, she wanted to be converted. Well my conversions were usually drug out quite long, it would take at least eight months for the education. Ah, I would have them learn Jewish history and Jewish prayers and ah, but I would also teach them how to read Hebrew, so they could read the Hebrew prayers. And besides the various lessons in the Jewish precepts, tenets, ah, Jewish laws and so on. And ah, this girl became so strictly Jewish that after she was married and she was pregnant, she would walk two miles from her home to the synagogue, she wouldn't even ride on the sabbath. That's how strong she was. And, this one is funnier. I had another convert here, a Jewish girl, a girl. She was converted, she married a fellah here in town. And then she was divorced. And she fell in love with a professor at Phoenix College who was not Jewish. She made him convert to Judaism. (Laughter) So I was quite proud of all the converts that I had, but I never had any interfaith marriages. What kind of problems did you have at Beth El in the early '50s? Schechtman: Well we, didn't have too many problems, except trying to get the congregation to be able to raise enough money to be able to build a synagogue. They had to have many meetings and appeals until they were able to raise all the money they needed for the new building. And then they, they started building. But other problems as such we didn't have. it was quite a, quite a nice synagogue, and ah, people were very nice, it was a very warm Jewish community. Today they're more scattered, and we don't find so many, so much interest in the Jewish community as we did at that time. It was like one, big happy family. And that's what ... Kurn: How do you explain that? Schechtman: Well they were closer together, there weren't that many, and they all lived more or less in this area around, around, not in this area, on the other side of Camelback rather, and ah, ah, they always got together at these Purim dances and Hanukkah parties, and ah, the Sisterhood ran affairs very often, they made all kinds of parties, all kinds of different ah, affairs. They also started a Friday evening supper before services, they would have a, Sisterhood would make a supper for the people and they would get together for the, for the sabbath dinner and then they would go to services. So that, that kept them together and ah, very, very friendly spirit. Kurn: And what would the Men's Club do, what were some of their activities? Schechtman: Well, the Men's Club would run affairs, ah, also, like dances and holiday affairs, and ah, send out invitations to all kinds of people who would come to these affairs. They would invite speakers, ah, this Judge Jennings was a very good friend of the Jewish people and he would come to all their affairs, he would speak at their affairs, ah, he would invite some friends to come to talk to the Men's Club, the Men's Club meetings. And we'd invite other, Rabbi Krohn to come to speak to us sometimes. And then, in 1955, Rabbi Krohn passed away, Rabbi Plotkin took over the position. He came here a year before I left. And Rabbi Plotkin and I were very good friends because in South Bend, Indiana where I was a rabbi, Rabbi Plotkin's parents were members of my congregation. So I knew him from South Bend, Indiana. In fact when he had to graduate from the Hebrew Union College, he came to see me. He said, "Rabbi, I'd like you to help me write a..." he had to write a thesis on charity which was on one of the pages of the Talmud, and he wanted me to study that with him. So I did. In fact when he came down here he said, "Rabbi Schechtman is my Rabbi." Kurn: Ah ... Schechtman: And we're still very good friends, Rabbi Plotkin. Kurn: So there was a good feeling between the Reform and the Conservative congregations? Schechtman: Always ... Kurn: No competition? Schechtman: No, not at all.. Kurn: How much were dues, do you remember when you first came here? Schechtman: Oh, I don't know. Kurn: You talked about, ah, enlarging on Beth El. Do you remember what it cost, how much money you had to raise, and how you raised it? Schechtman: Well we started, about, if I remember from the Beth El Echo, I think it was something, it started off with fifty thousand, they needed fifty thousand dollars, I think. And then we had a, we finally burnt, burnt the mortgage for two hundred and fifty thousand. And we raised that two hundred and fifty thousand to build that new building. Kurn: How did you do it and how long did it take? Schechtman: Well it took about two years to raise the entire money. But because we had meetings, and ah, we appealed to people, they saw the importance of a new synagogue. And, especially with children, they saw the importance of having a good Hebrew school for the children. And we had teachers from the area, we had quite a few people in the area who knew enough Hebrew to be able to be Hebrew teachers. We had eight classes from the first grade to the eighth grade. Kurn: Do you remember any of your early teachers? Schechtman: We had a Mrs. Mathis, M-A-T-H-I-S, Mrs. Mathis, I think one of her children still lives here. And then ah, we had a cantor, a Sol Rothstein who would help us with teaching music to the children and ah, he would play the piano and we had a choir of the children also, and that would attract people. We had a choir singing and we would have affairs with the children singing. And so we got people together that way. Kurn: Do you remember when you finally burned the mortgage, what it was like? Schechtman: That was in ah, I've got a picture, here it is, in 1954. There's a picture of Sam Smith, Howard Hy Dreiseszun, Howard Tocker and myself, and we're burning the mortgage there. I think Sam Smith at that time was the President of the congregation, and Hy Dreiseszun, that's Herbie's father, he was the Vice president, and Howard Tocker was the Treasurer. So ah, that was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in the Gardner school building was finished in 1950. Kurn: Did you have a party? Schechtman: Oh yeah, we had a big celebration. Kurn: Do you remember what you did? Schechtman: Well we had a dinner, and invited a lot of people, and ah, then I think we made a dance that night after the, after the dinner. Kurn: You would have it at Beth El? Schechtman: At Beth El yeah, we had a big auditorium, it was a very large auditorium. The auditorium seated close to eight hundred people. And the synagogue seated about five hundred people, the upstairs synagogue. So we had plenty of seats, plenty of seating, plenty of room. Kurn: And what did the school building look like? Schechtman: The school building had eight classrooms, and a chapel downstairs. So we used to use the chapel during the week for services. And for any activities that the children needed we used to use the auditorium, that was underneath the main building, the main synagogue, the large auditorium. And that's where we used to have the children's Passover Seder. They used to conduct their own Passover Seder, well I had to teach them what to do, but they did it, and it was very nice. Kurn: Who was the principal of the school? Schechtman: I was principal of the school. Kurn: So you were principal and the Rabbi? Schechtman: I was the principal and the Rabbi, yes. Kurn: Did they ever split that job while you were the Rabbi? Schechtman: No. No, I had some good teachers who helped me out. And ah, my secretary, this Eleanor Clausman was very, very helpful in lots of things that she did for me. Kurn: And she was full-time? Schechtman: Yeah. Kurn: Were there any, ah, any groups of people that wanted to do something different? Schechtman: No, they all seemed to ah, be happy with what we had, with our Purim Ball, and our dinners, and our dances and, in fact. the Men's Club used to have Jewish movies, show Jewish movies very often, the old Jewish movies from the Second Avenue theaters in New York. And ah, so they'd invite-. people for that, they would charge admission of course and, but they made money that way. And so every month they would have another Jewish movie. Kurn: Was there a Jewish Family and Children's Service, or Jewish Community Center, or a Federation in those days? Schechtman: Well we, we dedicated the Jewish Community Center on 16thL Street and Camelback and ah, that was the first Jewish Community Center before they moved up here to Maryland. In fact I, I was one of the dedicators of the Jewish Community Center. And also something interesting happened at that time. You know there was always this feeling that when you make a center it has to be non-sectarian. Kurn: Why? Schechtman: I don't know. They think if it's a community center, you have to have both non-Jews and Jews there. And I was opposed to that, so at that dedication we invited a judge, I can't remember his name, it wasn't Jennings, it was some other judge. We invited him as the main speaker. And at the dedication, I made, I made a statement. I said "This is a Jewish community center, and I want it to be Jewish." Non-Jewish people the YMCA, they have the Knights of Columbus, they have their organizations, we want this to be a Jewish center." So when the judge got up to speak he said, "The Rabbi is right." He said, "We have our . . ." He was not, he was a non-Jewish judge, a Christian judge. He said, "We have our centers. You need a Jewish community center, the Rabbi is right, and you keep this a Jewish community center." Kurn: Good for you. Schechtman: So we, I don't know, I was always a fighter I guess. My wife used to tell me sometimes, "Can't you stop already?" (Laughter) Well, now that I'm in my old age, I stopped. Kurn: I doubt it. Schechtman: After all, I was fifty years in the rabbinate, and I, my last position was in ah, in, Palm, West Palm Beach, Florida. Kurn: Well let's see. You stayed at Beth El until ... Schechtman: 1956. Then I went to New York. Schechtman: Back to New York, I got a position in a Long Island, Roosevelt, Long Island. Kurn: How come you left? Schechtman: Well, things went on that I didn't like, I ah, Kurn: Such as ... Schechtman: Well, I asked for a, I said to them, "Look. Give me another thousand dollars. And I'll let you keep all the income that I have from weddings and funerals and so on." Well, they said, "It's a little bit hard for us at this time", you know. So I said, "Well, if it's so hard for another thousand dollars, well then maybe I don't deserve it. So let's call it quits." So this Joe Feld, came to me and said, "Rabbi, I want to have, to call a congregational meeting. And we're going to force you to stay here." said, "Joe, please don't." Kurn: Hum... Schechtman: I was here until 1956, I worked enough, I want a change. So, I went back to New York and got a position in Roosevelt, Long Island, and I was there for eight years. We built a new synagogue. I was, I can say, a synagogue builder. I built four new synagogues during my rabbinate. We built a new synagogue. I don't know whether you heard but in Roosevelt, Long Island became the, what they called at that time, they brought in black people from all over to settle in that town. The Jewish people had just built beautiful homes in a section of that, of Roosevelt, Long Island. When this thing, I forget what they called it at that time, ah, my memory is, at my age, it's not so good. So with all the black people coming in, all the Jewish people started moving out. Kurn: Oh. Schechtman: We had just built a new synagogue a year before. We had to close down the synagogue. Kurn: Oh my. Schechtman: So I left and I got a position in Kingston, New York, upstate New York. I was in Kingston for ten years, and I turned the age of seventy, I said, "Honey, I'm retiring." But I was also a chaplain at that time at the Hudson River State Hospital, which is a New York state hospital, which was in Poughkeepsie, New York. It was about twenty minutes away f rom Kingston. So I was, I stayed there two more years as chaplain at that hospital, so I stayed in Kingston, we lived in Kingston twelve years, ten years in the, in the congregation, and two years more, at the Hudson River State Hospital. It's now called the Hudson River Psychiatric Institute, they changed the name. So I was chaplain there because they had four hundred Jewish patients, they had four thousand patients when I was, when I came there, one of the largest state hospitals in New York State. But they had four hundred Jewish patients. So they needed a Jewish chaplain. So after that I finally, I'm retiring. So, ah, my wife had a sister living in Florida. We went to visit her there. So I get a call from the ah, Rabbinical Assembly, "Harry, are you going down to Florida? I think there's a position open in West Palm Beach, in Century Village in West Palm Beach, that's a senior citizens village." So I said, "I'm retiring, what do you want?" "Go down, see what it is." So we went down to Florida to visit her sister in the meantime. And so I called up this congregation, I wasn't going to, so I said, "Let's go see what this Century Village is like in West Palm Beach." So ah, I called up the people in the congregation and the president came down to talk and he said, "Come, we'll take a walk and you can see what Century Village is like, we'll show you the synagogue", they had a beautiful synagogue. So, we were talking, and I told them, "Well, I'll let you know after I come home, what I decided." In the meantime I had an offer for some position in New Jersey, which I wasn't too anxious to go, but they wanted me to come there, so I said, "Honey, I want to retire, leave me alone." She said, "Honey, look, if you still have the ability, what are you going to do, sit and look at the walls?' Anyway, about two weeks later I get a call from Florida, West Palm Beach, the congregation in West Palm Beach. Oh yes, I'd written them a letter that I'm not coming down to West Palm Beach, I don't want to go to Florida. So I get a call one Saturday night from the President of the congregation, he said, "Rabbi, we didn't get your letter." (Laughter) Kurn: I love it. Schechtman: "You've got to come down here, we want you here, we want you here, you've got to come down here." So I had a discussion with my wife. I said, "Look, let's go down, we'll see what living in Florida is like." So I went down and I got the position in West Palm Beach, and I was there for seven years. I said, "Honey, at the age of seventy-seven, it's time to retire." I had fifty years in the rabbinate, it's enough. So, then I had my two daughters live here, Fay, Fay Paller, live here, and my Judy moved out here, well my Judy was living in Boston and she was married to a man who was an electrical engineer at the MIT Lincoln Laboratory in Lexington, Massachusetts. So he came here one time for my, one of my grandchildren's wedding, and he fell in love with Phoenix, my younger daughter's husband. So he joined Fay Paller's husband in the construction business, and they moved down here. So since we had our two daughters living here, so look we'll retire to Phoenix. So we moved back to Phoenix about five years ago. Kurn: Oh. Schechtman: Yeah, so we had it here with our Fay, Fay has three, three children, I have three grandchildren there, and then my Judy has little Danny, he's twelve years old and he has his Bar Mitzvah at the end of next year, he goes to the Hebrew Academy, and ah, my son has two children, so I have six grandchildren, and my Fay, Fay's older daughter has two children, so I have two great-grandchildren. There we are. Kurn: Are you involved at all at Beth El? Schechtman: Well, they used to call me every time Rabbi Silberman went away on vacation, I should come and conduct services. So a few summers I did it, for about three years I did it. Then I said, "Look, after all conducting these services is not an easy job. Friday night, Saturday morning, sermons, and all that, you ought to at least remunerate me for something." "Well, we'll let you know." They never let me know, so I don't go anymore. Kurn: They never change, do we? Schechtman: So ah, but, I go back to Beth El when I have yahrzeit, when I have to say Kaddish, I go to their services. Rabbi Silberman and I are very friendly. Kurn: Oh good. Schechtman: Oh yeah, and when we had our, Jewish War Veterans have services in a different congregation every year. Well last year we had it at Beth El. I think this year we're having it at Beth Israel, but I don't ride on the sabbath, so the only service I can go with them is the one to Beth El. So last year, we had it, last November we had it at Beth El so they, they took, they asked me, pulled me over and said, "Rabbi, since you're our chaplain," I'm the chaplain of the Jewish War Veterans, "why don't you conduct the services for us?" So I said, "It's up to Rabbi Silberman, it's his synagogue." So they called Rabbi Silberman, so Silberman said, "Sure, Harry can conduct services anytime." So we conducted services that November, on Veterans Day it was, a Friday night of Veterans Day week. So I got up at services there at Beth El on Friday night, for the Jewish War Veterans. It was very nice, so I'm still connected with Beth El. Kurn: Sure. Schechtman: So when I come there I can still see the furniture where I sat on. (Laughter) Kurn: Oh they brought the furniture to the new building? Schechtman: In the, in the chapel, they have the seats, the pulpit chairs that we had upstairs, in the old building on McDowell, they, they're using them in the chapel downstairs. So when I come there I see the chairs that I sat on. (Laughter) Kurn: What Rabbi followed you, when you left? Schechtman: They had Rabbi Klein, he was here for three years. Then they had Rabbi Tutnauer, who was here I think was here for nine years, I think. And then they had Rabbi Gold, was it? Now they have Silberman. So they had four or five Rabbis since I left. Kurn: Well you did good, you really ... Schechtman: I tried, I tried ... Kurn: You laid the foundation ... Schechtman: Yeah, we had a good congregation, and it became a good Jewish community and ah, the Jews did a lot of good work with the community, I think. People like Sam Smith, who did a lot of good work, and the Smiths, Arnold Smith and ah, and I think Arnold is still very active, and so is Sam Schurgin. Now they built this new addition to the Beth El Congregation, it's called the Schurgin Learning Center, or something. Oh yes, and then, when I go to Beth El, Sam Schurgin, he hugs me and kisses me, we still have the old, the old friendships. Schurgin and Bill Shoen passed away, Irving Smith, and Zeitlin, what's his first name again, Jonah Zeitlin's son, and Teddy Kort, Herbie Dreiseszun, and ah, ... Kurn: Those were your boys? Schechtman: They were my boys. And they are still interested in the community. And then Herbie Smith and Evelyn Smith, very friendly. There wasn't anything that Sam Smith did that I wasn't involved. And all their affairs and all the things that we ah ... Kurn: Would there be big bar and bat mitzvahs, did you have bat mitzvahs in the early '50s? Schechtman: No we didn't have bat mitzvahs at that time. That doesn't start until much later. It became a good American custom. Kurn: And did you have big parties for the bar mitzvahs? Schechtman: Yeah. Kurn: Would they have dinner dances? Schechtman: Yeah, they had dances. They would have the auditorium, some of them would go to hotels and so on. Kurn: But most of your congregants lived around ... Schechtman: Around, around and close to the synagogue, that was the actually the Jewish community. Kurn: And the Reform congregants, did they live around Beth Israel? Schechtman: I think, I think they did. Kurn: Would your people walk to services? Schechtman: Some, some of them did. Most of them, I think most of them did not. Although it was close by, sure, the Orthodox people, we had quite a few, a lot of religious, Orthodox people. And they did, and then later on, another congregation, the Beth Hebrew Congregation ... Kurn: That started while you were here? Schechtman: Yeah, it started about two years I think before I left. or three years before I left. Kurn: So you lost some of your members? Schechtman: Not too many. It was not a very well organized congregation. In fact they broke up later on, if you know, in case you didn't know. Yeah, they broke up, in fact they, they gave all their money they had to Beth El and the Torahs and everything they gave to Beth El. So I guess that's the story, huh? Kurn: Good days, good days, but you came when it was really hot, and you stayed. Schechtman: Yeah, in the summertime it was hot. (Laughter) Mrs. Schechtman: They didn't have the kind of air conditioning they have here? Schechtman: No. Kurn: I was going to say when you went to the hotel that first day to cool off, what did they have, evaporated cooling? Schechtman: Evaporative cooling, sure, and in the house we had evaporated cooling. Mrs. Schechtman: Oh no, the hotel had the real air conditioning. Schechtman: Oh they did, the homes ... Mrs. Schechtman: Some of the wealthier homes started putting it in while we were here. Schechtman: We had evaporative cooling, in fact I think the first Passover we bought a ah, a cooler to put in the window, didn't we? The first Passover we were here? Mrs. Schechtman: No it wasn't the first Passover, it was a few years. Schechtman: Later on, I remember later on... Mrs. Schechtman: We had no air conditioning in the car. Schechtman: No, we drove from here to Los Angeles without air conditioning in the car. Kurn: In the summer? Schechtman: Through that desert in the summer. Kurn: Mechogee... Schechtman: Oh mechuona, is right. Cities like Blythe, and Indio, whooh. That Desert Center. The hundred miles from Blythe to Indio in that hot desert. I'll tell you one time I blew a tire, right in the desert, two miles away from a, from a gasoline station. I had to go buy a new tire. (Laughter) But that time that's what you did. In fact one time, we were driving to, to California, I had the children in the car, and my car got hot, overheated. It was nighttime, children were sleeping in the back, and I saw a little house on the side so I went over to knock on the door to get some water from them. So I hear a voice, yelling out, "Get from here or I'll shoot yea." Kurn: Oh ... Schechtman: So that's all I needed. So I said, "My car overheated. I get some waters" Again, "Get away from this house or I'll shoot yea." So I went, back to the car, we drove with the heated car another mile or two to a gasoline station, and I finally some gas. The good old days . . . Kurn: Right. Schechtman: Southern hospitality. (Laughter) Ah but, that's the way we lived at that time. It took us about eight hours to get to the outskirts of Los Angeles. About to hours more to get into town and where we had to go. Kurn: Did. . . go ahead? Schechtman: We had our, in that time, we had our daughter living in Los Angels, so we drove out there. Kurn: It hard to believe when you came here that Camelback was the end of . . . Schechtman: Sure, there was nothing past Camelback. Kurn: Was Sunnyslope a city? Schechtman: It was a town, yeah. Kurn: It was a separate town. So, people just kind of stayed south of Camelback ... Kurn: ... and that's where all the work was and the activities, downtown. Schechtman: All the activities, everything south, sure. In fact, when we lived on Culver, Culver started to become, about 1956 Culver started to become closer to the downtown area. So that's when we moved and we had to sell our house at the time. Took a bit loss on the house at that time, too. In fact I left to go to New York to look for a position, I left my wife here with my son, my children, and she had to sell the house here. She came to New York two weeks later. So we lived a hectic life. Kurn: It sounds it. And you did your good deeds from New York to Phoenix, to Florida ... Schechtman: Everywhere. Kurn: ... to prisons, to ... Schechtman: Yeah, in fact when I was in East St. Louis I was the chaplain at the Menard Illinois State Penitentiary. That was a security penitentiary, for all the big murderers. Kurn: And there were Jews in the prison here in Phoenix? Schechtman: There were Jews there, yea. Kurn: Is there a prison in Phoenix, or is it in ... Schechtman: No, Florence. Kurn: Florence. Schechtman: Florence State Penitentiary. In fact I was a chaplain in a penitentiary in New York also before I took the job at the, at the, Hudson River State Hospital. And we had Jews there and had no services. And so one fellow, killed his wife, so he said to me, he says, "I don't know why I'm in jail. She was my wife. Didn't I have a right to kill her? Rabbi, you tell me", I should tell him. I said, "Sure you had a right. You have a right to kill yourself too." Kurn: Was it difficult keeping kosher in the early '50s, in Phoenix? Schechtman: No, we had two kosher butchers, they were named Forman and, Forman had a kosher butcher store, and Katz had a kosher butcher store Kurn: Oh. Schechtman: And we had a V'ad Hakashrut, a committee that took care of the kosher. Kurn: Oh you did? Schechtman: A big, a big committee, of about nine people. Of course as the Rabbi I was the head of the kashruts . . . Kurn: Who was head of it? Schechtman: I was head of it. Kurn: Oh, you were it. Schechtman: We had a chairman of course, ah, Jerry, was it Jerry Klein? Mrs. Schechtman: Klein. Schechtman: Jerry Klein, now he passed away a long time ago, he was the chairman of the V'ad Hakashrut. And ah, we really kept an eye on the kosher butcher store, the kosher, the kosher, ah, bakeries, do you know, ah ... Kurn: Ronay's? Schechtman: Ronay, well I married Ronay and his wife. Kurn: Oh. Schechtman: Performed the marriage ceremony. And she was the daughter of a Mr. Wilkins who had a kosher bakery, down here. Kurn: Oh really, so there were two kosher bakeries? Schechtman: Well, Ronay didn't have a kosher bakery at that time. He did later on. Mrs. Schechtman: Ronay worked for the father-in-law, Sun Valley Bakery. Schechtman: It was called the Sun Valley Bakery, and he worked for this Mr. Wilkins who later married the daughter. Kurn: What else did the V'ad Hakashrut do? Schechtman: Well we took care of the kosher butchers and ah, I had to go see how they slaughtered the ah, cows ... Kurn: ... here in Phoenix? Schechtman: Yeah, Abos Packing Company. We had to go to watch them to see that they did it right, and so on. And we checked every kosher butcher to see that they did the right thing and when the poultry came in from California, we checked the poultry, and so on. Kurn: We don't still have that kosher packing house, do we? Schechtman: No, no they closed down. Kurn: Hum, I wonder how many people kept kosher in those days. Schechtman: Quite a few, they had two kosher butchers, they only have two kosher of Jews that they have here. Are there sixty-five thousand Jews in the area? You only have two kosher butchers. And at that time we had two kosher butchers also. Kurn: Where were they located? Mrs. Schechtman: Gross also was ... Schechtman: Yes, Gross, Gross's delicatessen. Mrs. Schechtman: But he didn't get the Hechscher. Schechtman: No, he kept open on the sabbath so we didn't give him the Hechscher. Ah, I don't remember where, where, do you remember where the butchers stores were, Ruth? What streets they were on? I don't remember. Mrs. Schechtman: Katz and Forman? Schechtman: Yeah. Kurn: Well Katz ended up on Central but he didn't start on Central? Oh that was just Katz's delicatessen. Schechtman: No, that's Katz delicatessen. Mrs. Schechtman: That's a different Katz altogether. Schechtman: That's a different Katz. Kurn: So you were the Rabbi that would make sure everything was strictly kosher? Schechtman: Everything was kosher, yeah. A little side job. Kurn: No fee. Schechtman: Didn't have enough to do. Kurn: No salary. Schechtman: No. I didn't get a fee for anything. Mrs. Schechtman: That was all part of the job at the synagogue. Schechtman: I was the only Conservative/Orthodox Rabbi in the area. We only had two rabbis, one Reform and one myself. So I had to do everything. In fact one time, should I tell her this story, about California... Mrs. Schechtman: No. Schechtman: One time some poultry came in and people were saying the poultry wasn't kosher. Because they're not washing it correctly in California, Southern California. So, how would I know? So I took a trip to California, to Los Angeles, and I went there, I got there at six o'clock in the morning to make sure that I was at the poultry place when they opened up to see what they were doing. And I watched them, and they were doing it correctly. I had to come back to report that the poultry is kosher. Also, a volunteer job. Kurn: So they would just, you would get kosher chickens and kosher beef. That was it. Schechtman: Yeah, because fish is always kosher, you know, the regular kosher fish. Not the shellfish. Mrs. Schechtman: Don't forget, they didn't have Empire in those days. Kurn: No Empire, no. No frozen kosher foods. Schechtman: No, you had to get it ... [End of tape.] [end of transcript]