..inte: Pearl Ronay ..intr: Estelle Gracer ..da: 1997 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Pearl Ronay October 27, 1997 Transcriptionist: Dottie Seidman, DBS Professional Consultants Interviewer: Estelle Gracer Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Pearl Ronay Interview Pages 1 Arrival in Phoenix, 1947 1 Home on Osborn Road I Mode of Travel 2 Sister Lillian 2 Start of Bakery, Roosevelt & 3rd Avenue 3 Joining a Temple 3 Working in the Bakery 4 Social Life 5 Relationship with Customers 7 Roles of Parents in Bakery 8 Father's Retirement and Family Take-Over 9 Meeting Bob Ronay and Their Getting Married 9 The Opening of Gold Star Bakery 10 Birth of the Ronay Children 12 Thanksgiving Parties 14 Meeting of People Through the Bakery 14 Fire and Closure of Gold Star Bakery 17 Organizations 17 Retirement 17 Bar Mitzvahs and Weddings 18 Renovation of Home 18 Death of Father and Mother's Activities 21 Family - Nieces and Nephews 22 Contribution to the Community 23 Yiddish Club 24 Speaking Yiddish 25 Remembering the Medical Community 25 More Family History Pearl Ronay Interview GRACER: Good afternoon, Pearl Ronay, I'm so glad that you're here. I'd like to know if you can tell me about when you were born and where you were born and the members of your family and we will start with that. RONAY: I was born on October 24, 1916 in Schenectady, New York. I lived there for 30 years before we moved to Phoenix with my father and my mother and one sister. I had another sister, and she moved here later. But in 1947, my parents moved here with one sister and we bought a home on Osborn Road which I'm still living in. This was in 1947. GRACER: When you moved to Osborn Road, what was it like? RONAY: It was only paved on one side. There were houses on my side of the street from 7th Street back to 5th Street. From there on there was just empty lots. Seventh Street had very few homes there, a few businesses. The street was paved but only part. Looked like almost farm country in the area because there were so many empty lots. GRACER: How did you feel when you arrived? How did you come? How did you travel here? RONAY: We traveled by train and it was a long trip. It was like a foreign country to me because I hadn't been out of the state much. We hadn't traveled very much, you know when we were back east. So this was a big move for us. But my brother was living in California, and my sister had moved; my older sister came out later. GRACER: What made you come here? RONAY: The weather. The weather in upstate New York was just terrible, and my parents were getting a little older, and the snow and the rain bothered them. So we were looking for nicer climate, and we found it here. GRACER: But what made you choose Phoenix? RONAY: My father had some Landsleit here. They were from Boston, Massachusetts, originally, and they moved out here. My parents came for a visit, and, when my father came back home, he said, "We're moving to Arizona." GRACER: How did the furniture come or did you come without furniture? RONAY: We came without furniture, and the furniture came a day or two later. So as I remember, we stayed in a hotel until our furniture came. GRACER: And you're still in the same.... RONAY: I'm still in the same house. GRACER: Wait a minute - they bought a house? RONAY: We bought the house on Osborn Road. GRACER: Right away? RONAY: I think my father had come; wait a minute, my father had come about a month earlier, that's right, and he bought the house. GRACER: So you moved here with Lil? RONAY: We moved here with Lillian. That's right, my older sister didn't come till 2 or 3 years later. GRACER: How did you find your father? What did he do to make his living? RONAY: We started a bakery on Roosevelt and 3rd Avenue. GRACER: Had he been a baker before? RONAY: My father was a baker, my father was a baker from Europe. His father and grandfathers were bakers and there was only one other bakery here on Central Avenue. We found a spot on Roosevelt, and the lady built the building. She had just built the building and there was a Jewish-type delicatessen in that building called Malcoff s. And they were old timers here also. It was not a kosher deli, but it was a New York-type deli and there was an opening in the building on the other end. And that's what we rented. GRACER: And you did Jewish style? RONAY: Completely Jewish style. GRACER: How did you find the Jewish community at that time? RONAY: It was a much smaller Jewish community, but they were very happy that we had opened because evidently the other bakery wasn't satisfying their needs. GRACER: How did you make friends? What was it like? How did you take to the heat? RONAY: It was strange. The heat bothered us. As a matter of fact, I still don't like the heat. GRACER: What time of the year did you move here? RONAY: We came in September, but my parents had been here visiting before so they were aware of the heat, and they had told us that it was going to be hot. And I hated it then. I still do. GRACER: When you moved there in 1947, did you have air conditioning? RONAY: No, we had coolers originally in our house. I don't think at that time air conditioning was very prevalent. GRACER: You're living in that house 50 years? RONAY: I've been in that house September it was 50 years. But we've seen a lot of changes even on Osborn Road. Like I said, it was only -- there were only habitations on one side of the street; the other side of the street was vacant. GRACER: And what Temple did you join, a Shul or a Temple? RONAY: We joined a Shul. There was a small Shul on Third Avenue. That was before Beth El had their big building, and there was a small Shul someplace and this is where we joined. I wasn't active in the Shul then; I wasn't active back east in a Shul. It wasn't till I came out here and met most of my friends through the Shul that we became active in the Shul here. GRACER: You didn't go to school here? RONAY: No. GRACER: What did you do? Did you go to work in the bakery? RONAY: I helped in the bakery. Lillian did too; we both did. As a matter of fact, we couldn't afford a sales girl at that time so Lillian and I split the work. In fact, my mother did a little work. It wasn't a very good idea because if anybody looked needy, she gave them the baked goods. So finally I said, "Mom, you have to watch it. Some of these people aren't quite honest, and they're playing on your sympathy." So she says, "The Jewish way is, when somebody asks what to eat, you give them what to eat." And that's been both my parents' philosophy always. My father was the same way. Being in the bakery business you're asked constantly for contributions, and it was his pleasure. He was a member of the Shul and whatever the Shul needed.... GRACER: What was the name of the Shul? Remember? RONAY: I really can't remember if it was already Beth El at that time. GRACER: Did it become Beth El? RONAY: I really don't remember. I should have.... GRACER: Do you remember anything about Beth Israel or anything? RONAY: There was a temple here at that time so it must have been Beth Israel. But as I say, we weren't reform, we were always conservative so I really can't remember when Beth El moved into their original building. GRACER: What was the social life like? RONAY: Social life was slow at that time. There weren't that many Jews. There weren't that many young men to begin with but.... GRACER: '47 was right after the war. RONAY: Right, but Lillian and I were lucky because a lot of mothers came in and they had single sons. And we were eligible at the time. So they used to come in with the sons, and this was where we started a social life, both Lillian and I. We met the boys through the bakery. GRACER: And what about girlfriends? RONAY: Girlfriends, probably also through the Shul because that was our only social life at that time. It was at the Shul. At that time there was such a small population that, when you got together for a holiday, you met almost everybody. The holidays were a very important time. The holidays were important times both socially and in the business, because ours would be only kosher baked goods. The other bakery wasn't a kosher bakery so we were fortunate enough to meet most of the Jews in town through business. GRACER: So you had the first kosher bakery. What was the name of it? RONAY: Pleasant Valley Bakery. Wait a minute, that was what our bakery was back east. GRACER: Would it be something with "sun?" RONAY: I don't remember if the first one was the Gold Star Bakery or not because that was the bakery that you know my husband and I opened. Sun Valley Bakery, that was the name of the bakery -- the Sun Valley Bakery, because in Schenectady it was the Pleasant Valley Bakery, and here we had moved to the valley of the sun so we named it the Sun Valley Bakery. And it was through the bakery that we made our social life. GRACER: Did you have any relationships with non-Jews? Did they come into the bakery? RONAY: Oh yes, we had a lot of non-Jewish customers, because the Jewish population at that time was a small one. So we had as many non-Jews as we did Jews. In fact, as time went on and the non-Jewish customers knew that we were closing for the holidays, they would stop in. They would come and say, "How many days are you going to be closed?" Two days for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur so they would buy enough to carry them. And that was the way we built our non-Jewish clientele also. GRACER: Did you encounter any anti-semitism or anything like that? RONAY: You know what, I think, Estelle, that I've been very lucky most of my life. The only time I guess I did, there used to be an O'Malley's. Are O'Malley's still in town here? GRACER: Yes. RONAY: The original owner of O'Malley came into the bakery one time. He was a customer of mine, and he came in. He used to come in every morning, as a matter of fact. He came in one morning and bought his danish, and he waved a five dollar bill. And when I went to reach for it, he said, "You know what this is?" I said, "What?" He said, "That's a Jewish flag." So I said, "Really." I said, "That's strange. You know I'm Jewish, and that's not my flag. And -- Mr. O'Malley, would you do me a favor?" He said, "Certainly." I said, "Just leave and don't come back." He didn't know I was Jewish. GRACER: So did he ever come back? RONAY: No, I made it quite clear. I said, "Just leave and don't come back," and that man, I thought he would die, he was so embarrassed. GRACER: You know, I have to tell you something. He has a grandchild who is married to a Jew. RONAY: Really? GRACER: Yes. RONAY: Are they the original owners? Still O'Malley? GRACER: Yes. RONAY: Well, I'll be damned. This must have been their grandfather then. GRACER: Yes, it's his grandchild who is married to a Jewish person. RONAY: Isn't that interesting. GRACER: These things are very interesting. RONAY: I hope the man is still alive. He has a Jewish grandchild. Yes, but as I say, I had very little antisemitism my whole life. I must have been lucky. You know, when people told me about bad experiences that they had, I couldn't picture it. GRACER: Do you remember your first memories when you realized that you were Jewish? I know this was in Schenectady. Did you always know? RONAY: I always knew I was Jewish. I went to Chader, and I learned how to read Hebrew. I was never very successful in writing, but I could always follow in the Prayer Book even though I didn't understand. I had to look to the English side, but I could always follow in the Prayer Book. GRACER: Describe the roles of your father and mother at home. With the business and everything, how did that work with your father and your mother? RONAY: My father worked mostly at night, my mother helped in the store, and so did I. It was a family business. Lillian helped too. GRACER: Since your father really worked most of the time, he didn't have time for a social life, did he? RONAY: That's true. That's true, except that he was a Shul goer and ... GRACER: Let's say the bakery was closed on Shabbot? RONAY: That helped. In the beginning it wasn't, which was a bone of contention with the Rabbis there, but my father said, "I have to make a living." And several times people would come in and ask how come we were open on Shabbot. But as time went on and our business improved, we were able to close on Saturday and early Friday afternoon we closed. But at that time we were already making a living so every dollar didn't count. GRACER: So in the beginning you were open every day. RONAY: In the beginning we were open six days. GRACER: Well you certainly filled a need, didn't you? RONAY: We did fill a need. Evidently that other bakery on Central Avenue didn't have the variety that we had and the type of merchandise. GRACER: How you make challahs? RONAY: Oh yes. GRACER: The rye bread? RONAY: Yes. GRACER: How did your father find getting the supplies here? Did the heat affect things differently or the water? RONAY: The water did. I understand that that was a problem. From the beginning he had to make adjustments in his formulas because of the water. The water, I think, was what made it different. But actually, Estelle, Lillian and I never really knew what was going on in the back. We never had anything to do with -- we were in with the hired bakers. GRACER: Did he or not? RONAY: Yes, people said it was the hired bakery because they had, what do they call those, a bakery organization, a union. They had a union here at the time. So my father called the union, and they sent over a baker. So from the beginning we only had one, and as time went on we had two. Then about quite a while afterwards, my brother moved from California and joined us and he enlarged it. We had the large building on Central Avenue, and we had several places and markets at that time. But as time went on that didn't work out. We couldn't control it anymore. GRACER: Did your father ever retire or did he work all his life? RONAY: My father retired, and my brother took over. My brother moved here from California, and he was the one who took over. Then he left, and my brother-in-law took over. GRACER: Which brother-in-law? RONAY: Barney. GRACER: He was the baker? RONAY: Barney ran the bakery for a while, and by that time my husband had come and ... GRACER: How many years ago did you get married? RONAY: Forty-two years. I'm married 42 years. GRACER: Did you meet your husband through the bakery? RONAY: I met my husband in the bakery. GRACER: Was he a baker? RONAY: My husband had just graduated from the American Institute of Baking in Kansas City, and he was looking for a job. You know something I really don't remember how my husband was hired. I think my brother hired him, and Bob was looking in Chicago at the time. Must have been through an ad. GRACER: Did he come here just to work for your bakery? RONAY: He came here just to work here, and I met him. GRACER: How long did you know him before you married him? RONAY: Three weeks. GRACER: No kidding? RONAY: I think we fell in love almost immediately. He had a twinkle in his eye that got me. I spent more time in the bakery. One of the women there was elderly. Well she was a nice Jewish woman, and she said, "You know something, I see something is cooking there." And I said, "You're right, I never let him go." GRACER: Did you get married right away? RONAY: We got married, I think, a couple of months later. GRACER: So then he was working in the bakery? RONAY: He was working in the bakery. And then it got very large, and got out of hand. Nobody could handle it anymore, and the whole thing fell apart. So my husband decided to go into business for himself. He did, and it was successful. GRACER: That was the Gold Star? RONAY: That was the Gold Star Bakery. GRACER: And were you always on the premises on Camelback and 32nd Street? RONAY: Yes, 32nd. GRACER: That's where you started? RONAY: That's where we started. GRACER: How many years ago was that? RONAY: Estelle, I don't remember the year that we started. GRACER: But you were there for so long. RONAY: Well we came in '47. GRACER: So was this like 10 years later? RONAY: At least 10 years later if not more. GRACER: Well how old was JoBeth? RONAY: JoBeth is 42. GRACER: Was she born when you had your own business? RONAY: Yes. GRACER: So this was about... RONAY: Yes, at least 42. GRACER: Yes, that's 42 years ago. RONAY: Beth is 42 and Daniel is 41. They're only 10 months apart. Because Daniel was a preemie baby. Six years later our last child was born, Shane. So JoBeth was named after my father who was Josef Bair. GRACER: Your father had died? RONAY: My father had died. And as a matter of fact, Judy also, Judy and JoBeth are, I think they're two months apart. Lillian and I were both pregnant when our father passed. And then our second son was born, Shane and then JoBeth. I'm mixed up. JoBeth, Daniel and Shane. Shane was our last baby. He was a big surprise. GRACER: And JoBeth lives in Israel? RONAY; JoBeth lives in Israel. JoBeth went to Israel. There was a girl's organization at that time, and she went with a group on a year's study group in Israel. When she came home she said, "I'm going back to Israel to live." She says, "I think I'm going to be very happy there." And she was only 18. So instead of going to college she went to Israel. And she's been living there ever since. It's really -- I was very unhappy. I thought she was too young to leave home. At that time girls didn't leave home at 18. They stayed home until they got married. But she went there. She went to college there. She got her degree there, she married there and had three lovely children. GRACER: She made a life. RONAY: She made a life for herself there. GRACER: And your sons? RONAY: Daniel didn't want to go to college. He never found out until the last few years what he had. It was never diagnosed. He must have had ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder) which wasn't prevalent at that time. And he had a problem learning. I knew there was nothing wrong with his mind so I thought he just wasn't applying himself, but he finally got through college, -- excuse me, through high school -- and he didn't want to go to school any longer. I didn't realize that he found it difficult. But he remained in the bakery business up until this year when he decided to go back to school. I think he just finished a course in data processing. GRACER: How interesting. RONAY: He's still working in the bakery, but he sent out several resumes, and he's ready to make a change. GRACER: And Shane? RONAY: Shane is a born salesman. He always was. He was the personality kid. He was an aspiring actor, but it just didn't work out. So now he's living in Muncie. He's very happy, he married a very lovely girl. GRACER: And he's very religious? RONAY: Yes. Both my boys became very religious living in Muncie. That's a religious community there. And they both seem very happy with their religion. Shane married an extremely religious girl originally from Iran. Her family is from Iran. And no children as yet. And Shane is still looking for a Kallah (bride). He's a very nice boy. GRACER: Do you remember anything exciting or unusual or funny or sad stories about Phoenix's past, living in Phoenix? RONAY: I never had any sad experiences. GRACER: Something funny? Why don't you tell me about how your family grew and your big Thanksgiving parties? RONAY: My older sister came with her husband and her family, and my younger sister started having babies and had one after the other so I have five lovely nieces. When we had a Thanksgiving, we really had a Thanksgiving. GRACER: And how many people did that grow to be? RONAY: Between 30 and 40 with the in-laws and the children and a couple of neighbors. It was always pot luck which was lovely because everybody.... GRACER: Where did you have them years ago? RONAY: We started to have it in parks because none of our homes were large enough. For many years it was in parks until the homes got a little larger and we had larger dining rooms. GRACER: Didn't you have it in Tempe by the river? RONAY: Yes, there's a park there by the river, and we had quite a few of our Thanksgivings there. It was a beautiful park. We would come early and mark out a spot, put a few tables together, and we had a holiday meal there. GRACER: Pearl, you worked many years in the bakery didn't you? RONAY: Yes, I did. I only had a high school education so I wasn't really fit for anything that ... I had taken commercial courses, but it wasn't for me. Being in the bakery business, I was constantly surrounded by people, which was lucky. GRACER: Weren't there some funny stories of people that came to the bakery? RONAY: Funny stories? GRACER: Jewish stories? RONAY: It depended on how religious some people were. We had some people that would come in and say, "Could we go in the back and check your supplies?" to see that everything was kosher. We had Rabbis that did that. Rabbis were constantly checking us. In fact, they made it a coffee stop, which was nice. I mean I didn't mind. It meant that everything was right. GRACER: So everything was parev, is that how it was? RONAY: Everything was parev from the beginning. GRACER: There was no milk at all? RONAY: There was no milk in anything which made my husband and my son adjust a lot of their... GRACER: You never had cheese? RONAY: Never, I never had any dairy items. GRACER: I'm saying cheese danish. RONAY: Not until, well just a minute, I'm going to have to change that. From the beginning the bakery was - we did have cheese danish and cheese cake. From the beginning we did have cheese cake and cheese danish; but then, when we wanted a heschsher from the Rabbi, we didn't have a separate room for dairy and non-dairy. So we had to make a choice. The bakers had to adjust all their recipes, their formulas I should say, for non-dairy items. So for the rest of the time we were in business everything was non-dairy so we could get a heschsher from the Rabbi. GRACER: How many chollas would you do for a weekend? RONAY: On a Friday, 200, which was quite a feat in that small bakery. We had a very small bakery. GRACER: You must have been up all night. RONAY: Bakers always worked at night at that time, always. In fact, I think my son still works at night if I'm not mistaken. Not for long, I hope. No a dynasty is ending -- so many generations of bakers. GRACER: None of your other nieces or nephews, nobody? RONAY: Nobody. GRACER: I think I've got it right now. Tell me some more stories about your life at the bakery. RONAY: Working in the bakery you meet a large variety of people. You meet giggly brides; you meet mothers of Bar Mitzvah boys who tell you there is going to be 200 people and the day before the Bar Mitzvah they tell you there's going to be another 100 so you have to adjust everything. After a while you get it down to a science. When somebody comes in and says I'm having a Bar Mitzvah at Beth El, I ask how many people you are expecting. I have to know. Don't surprise me at the end. So I had everything almost down to a science. If they were expecting 200 people at a Bar Mitzvah I knew where to look for my notes as to what we put for pies and at what amount. Same thing with a wedding -- where it's going to be, what time they need the delivery, how many people they're expecting, anybody with allergies. Don't tell me at the last minute that they're allergic to eggs or whatever the story is and as I say, after a while, I had everything down to a science. GRACER: Did you make big wedding cakes? RONAY: Oh yes, my husband is a beautiful decorator. And our wedding cakes were really worth the part. Unfortunately, there was fire in the bakery and my whole album of wedding cakes ... whenever there was wedding or a Bar Mitzvah I would ask for a picture. Sometimes I would charge for the picture. I wanted it for my album so I had a beautiful collection of my husband's decorating work which got lost in the fire. GRACER: I know what happened. You had the fire and then you closed the bakery. RONAY: We closed because by the time we were ready to go back into business they had tripled our rent. Not doubled, tripled the rent which was very unkind of them. They were Jewish owners. GRACER: After all those years. RONAY: After all those years. It was a very un-Jewish thing for this man to do. GRACER: Would he have tripled the rent if you didn't have the fire? RONAY: I don't think so because we had a lease. I don't remember so far back. GRACER: Was this the end of the lease or did you have to write a new one? RONAY: We had already signed a new lease. I don't remember what the story was after the fire. After the fire everything was changed. He changed. And we decided not to go back into business. GRACER: And you've enjoyed your retirement. RONAY: I really have enjoyed my retirement. We have traveled, and I go to visit the children when I feel like it. It's been a very nice retirement so far. GRACER: Are you happy that you moved to Phoenix? RONAY: I'm very happy that I moved to Phoenix. I got married here; my children were all born here. The community has been very kind to us. We've made a lot of very good friends here, and the weather, of course, is lovely. We got to a point where we didn't have to spend the hot summers here. We bought a motor home and Bob, who was not born in this country, really enjoyed traveling. We went through 28 states. We camped out, and it was a pleasure traveling with a man who wasn't born here and was amazed at the beauty of this country. Wherever we went he would say, "What a country this is." You know he was born in the small country of Hungary. And he was amazed at the size. I was too. I had never done all that traveling. But we had bought a very comfortable motor home, and it was like a home on wheels. It was very nice. It was a pleasure riding with my husband. We had never spent that much time together because we had worked so hard the years he was working, and, when I was working he was sleeping. GRACER: He baked all night, and you ran the store? RONAY: Right. GRACER: And then you had people in the store to help you? RONAY: Yes. GRACER: You really had a 7-day business. RONAY: Until different Rabbis came in and they wanted us closed on Saturday. We were always closed on Sunday. We were a good 6-day business, but we realized to satisfy the orthodox community in this town we had to close on Saturday and by that time, we were fortunate enough that we were able to close on Saturdays because we had enough of an income, our children were grown and out of the house and was just me and Bob, so we were able to close on Saturdays. GRACER: So you saw the change. In the beginning even though you were a kosher bakery, you could be open seven days. You had the freedom to do whatever you pleased. As it expanded and more kinds of Jews came in, they were more selective and you couldn't... RONAY: No from the beginning, the bakery wasn't strictly kosher. We bought only kosher items, but we weren't kosher. We didn't have to be that careful from the beginning. The reason we didn't make dairy was from choice. Later, of course, we had to keep it non-dairy otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the heschsher from the Rabbis. They watched us pretty closely. They didn't have to do it because we knew... GRACER: Is there a kosher bakery here now? RONAY: I don't think so. GRACER: So you were really the only kosher bakery? RONAY: Right. I don't think there are any more small bakeries. With the exception of Karsh's. That's right I forgot Karsh's. GRACER: But are they kosher? RONAY: I don't think so. I don't know. GRACER: They have cheese, they have cheese there. RONAY: They can have cheese if they have a separate room. If they have a separate room and separate tools they can keep a kosher bakery. GRACER: They may have a U. RONAY: They do? GRACER: I think so. RONAY: As I say, I really don't know. GRACER: How long are you out of business here? How long is it? RONAY: '85. GRACER: That's 12 years. I guess you didn't have time to belong to any organizations? RONAY: Oh, we belonged to all the organizations. GRACER: Were you able to go to meetings? RONAY: Yes I went to meetings. By then I had help in the bakery. I started with one girl; by the time we finished we had seven girls. GRACER: So you didn't have to be there all the time? RONAY: No I didn't have to be there all the time. I had a car and went from place to place. I checked on the girls, and I did the hiring and the firing and .... GRACER: Did you have more than one premises? RONAY: From the beginning we had seven. We were in several markets. GRACER: That was later, I'm just talking about you and Bob. RONAY: Bob and I have just had the one. And that was enough. By that time, the bakery was extremely successful, and we had made a name for ourselves here. Everybody knew the Gold Star Bakery. GRACER: Tell me what were Bar Mitzvahs like then? I know now they're so elaborate. What were weddings like then? RONAY: Things were always about the same. As long as they told me how many people were expected, and what they wanted to spend, I knew exactly what to charge. You know when you're in business for a long time it gets to be a science. You know exactly how many you're going to serve for 500 people; you know exactly how you're going to serve, how many servings you need for 1,000 people. GRACER: What did you make? Did you make a lot of rugalach or things like that? RONAY: We made everything. We were a full-scale bakery. We made .... GRACER: You must have been very busy for the big Bar Mitzvahs, big weddings on weekends. RONAY: Yes, we were. We were a very successful business but toward the end my husband didn't have to work so hard. We had plenty of help and I had girls working in the store so it worked out beautifully. Phoenix has been very kind to us, and I'm very grateful that we moved here business-wise, weather-wise, family-wise. GRACER: Except your children aren't here. RONAY: My children have found their path in life elsewhere. Our daughter in Israel and our two sons in New York. They have become extremely observant. Sometimes, according to them, Bob and I are goyim. I don't do things to satisfy them, but I keep a strictly kosher home so my sons can come home to eat. GRACER: Did you have to renovate your home through the years? RONAY: Yes. GRACER: Because you're in it 50 years. Did you put in air conditioning? RONAY: We put in air conditioning; we added a room; we added a back porch which we didn't have; we added a patio. The house was very sparse when we bought it. GRACER: How many bedrooms do you have? RONAY: We have three bedrooms. One Bob made into an office, and I have one a guest room. The house is small, but it's comfortable. GRACER: It certainly has served its purpose. RONAY: I raised three lovely children. GRACER: What about now that the strip is just one-family houses? RONAY: The street itself is very busy. 7th Street and Osborn weren't as busy when we first moved there. GRACER: Was it the outskirts of town? RONAY: Just about. In fact, some of the streets around there weren't even paved. GRACER: Do you remember what your father paid for that house? RONAY: Probably around $12,000, $16,000. GRACER: Probably less? RONAY: I would imagine in the neighborhood of between $12,000 and $16,000. I am guessing, and that was pretty high at the time. GRACER: I bet. RONAY: The house was only three years old when we bought it. I remember meeting the builder. He had just built 3 or 4 houses along there, and it was fairly new when we moved in. GRACER: It wasn't a main street? But it had the name Osborn, didn't it? RONAY: The whole town grew up around us. GRACER: You didn't have Park Central then? Where did you do your shopping for food? RONAY: I don't remember. GRACER: What about kosher? RONAY: There was always a kosher butcher here. So we had no problem, and we were able to get delicatessen at the kosher butcher. There were markets there but nothing like markets we have here now. We had a Basha's. I think Basha's was the first supermarket on 7th Avenue. That was the one store Eddie Basha had. I'm trying to remember where the kosher butcher was at the time. It was downtown someplace. There was one kosher butcher when we first moved here. GRACER: There was in 1947? RONAY: My mother didn't keep a kosher house at that time, but she always bought kosher meat. When I got married, it was the same. I didn't keep a kosher house until my sons became so observant. But I only bought kosher meat because my mother always did. GRACER: Your mother eventually lived in Kivel didn't she? RONAY: Yes, she did. My father was gone by that time. GRACER: And she lived with Lil, didn't she? RONAY: She lived with Lil for quite a while. Lil and Barney were very good to my mother. GRACER: I know. I hear stories how they would take her to the park, and she would play cards all day in the park, and then they would pick her up. RONAY: Lilly or Barney would bring her, and we took turns taking my mother home for supper. GRACER: From the park you mean? RONAY: At the park. GRACER: Was that Encanto Park? RONAY: Encanto. She had her group of ladies and gentlemen there who came to the park every day to play cards. GRACER: Were they all Jewish? RONAY: All Jewish. GRACER: Isn't that interesting. RONAY: There would be a table of poker players; my mother was a poker player. And there were elderly gentlemen playing pinochle. There was quite a little group of Jews there. GRACER: They didn't have senior citizens clubs then, did they? RONAY: And Lily and I would divide at night. If it was Lily's turn, she would pick my mother up for supper, but my mother lived there. If it was my turn 2 or 3 nights a week, I would go pick her up. So we shared my mother. She was such a nice lady. GRACER: I didn't know her. RONAY: She was a lovely lady. GRACER: She knew my father. RONAY: My mother had a great sense of humor. She always made us laugh. She always had a twinkle in her eye. She was such a nice lady. GRACER: Myra's named for her, she's Myra Sarah. RONAY: One of my granddaughters is Noah Sarah. I say to Shane, if and when he ever has a baby, please name the baby Sarah. I want a Sarah not a second name. Or Daniel if he ever finds a Kallah. You know my sons are such nice boys, and I'm so sorry one of them is still single and the other has difficulty conceiving which is a shame because they're both nice boys. They would make good fathers. Of course, they have a good father they have to pattern themselves after. And the two boys are so far away from me and our daughter in Israel. From the beginning it almost killed me that JoBeth was so far away. My first baby and all of a sudden she was 18 and I 1,000 miles away from me. GRACER: Do you go there about once a year? RONAY: No about every two years depending on the money situation. And the two boys are in New York. It makes it hard, no children or grandchildren here. Fortunately, I was able to share with Lilly. GRACER: You're not alone. RONAY: Oh no, I have five wonderful nieces. GRACER: And you have Marilyn, too. RONAY: No, I'm very fortunate. GRACER: And Marilyn's children. RONAY: Marilyn's children are delightful. Zachary came over yesterday with Ari who is 4 years old. She has four boys, but this little 4-year-old is a prize. He's not only beautiful, he's so bright and so loving, Zachary said to him yesterday, "Come on Ari, we have to go home." He said, "I have to give Aunt Pearl a kiss." Now this is so adorable. I'm very lucky that my nieces and nephews are here. They almost take the place of my own children and grandchildren. GRACER: What about shopping for clothes in the department stores? RONAY: We didn't have much choice at that time. Korrick's was here, they were old timers. There was also another department store, I think it what is now Dillard's, it used to be the Boston store. GRACER: But with you, with the bakery, it was all the simchas and everything. RONAY: That's the best part of being in the bakery business. GRACER: Because you knew all the parties and the good times. RONAY: The bakery business is a very happy one. We share sorrows too, but mostly they're happy occasions. And everybody knows you. Wherever you go they say, "Oh, it's the baker's wife. Oh, it's the baker's mother." I don't know how well known we were, but we were liked. GRACER: That's why I'm interviewing you because you were known and you did make a contribution in this city. RONAY: We definitely made a contribution here. It was wonderful to watch this city grow the way it did and our little Shul grow into what it is and the number of Shuls they have now, both Conservative and Reform and Reconstructionists. I don't even know what a Reconstructionist Jew is. And, of course, the very Orthodox. We were careful with what we bought and what we used in the bakery so the Orthodox would have a place to shop. GRACER: What do they do now? The Chabad? RONAY: I don't know where Chabad shops now. They used to be our customer so I have no idea where they stop now. I'm not sure of any other bakery. All I know was that we were very careful. If the Rabbis used to come into the bakery and have coffee and a danish in the morning, you knew the place was kosher. GRACER: Did they ever bring you any stories or tell you anything? RONAY: As a matter of fact there was one Rabbi that doesn't live here anymore. He was a good storyteller. GRACER: Can you remember any stories? RONAY: No, I think he just lived here. He was quite an elderly man, and he used to come into the bakery. A very orthodox man, I can't remember his name. GRACER: Tomorrow a group that's called "Nostalgia" is coming to the Jewish Historical Society at 11:30. Maybe you would like to come. RONAY: Where is the meeting? GRACER: It's going to be right near your bakery. It's going to be at the Meridian Clubhouse at 32nd Street and Camelback. RONAY: Tomorrow? GRACER: It's a brown-bag lunch. RONAY: My Yiddish club meets on Tuesday. GRACER: Tell me about your Yiddish club. RONAY: We started with 10 women who were forgetting how to speak Yiddish. GRACER: Was this through your temple? RONAY: Yes, originally they were all Beth El members. I think maybe they still are. Anyway, one of our original ladies died, and the other dropped out. She said we weren't studying enough for her. She wanted us to study from books, and we decided that it was too formal for the rest of us. We just wanted to get together and talk about our children, where we had been, where we're going. So from 10 we came down to 8, and we have been meeting together in other's homes. I think it must be 8 or 10 years that we're getting together to speak Yiddish. GRACER: Did you speak Yiddish in your home? RONAY: No, Bob doesn't speak Yiddish. GRACER: I'm talking about your mother. RONAY: My mother spoke Yiddish when she wanted to make herself clear. GRACER: Where did you learn Yiddish? RONAY: I learned Yiddish from the ground up. GRACER: In other words, it wasn't that you learned it at home? RONAY: Oh, no. GRACER: See my parents spoke Yiddish at home. RONAY: When I was a young child we lived near my grandmother. My mother had several operations at the time, so I spent most of my time with my grandmother who spoke no English. This is where I learned Yiddish. I spent most of my young, growing-up years at my grandmother's house, and my grandfather had a Jewish deli in Schenectady and my whole growing up years were among Jews. I didn't know goyim. GRACER: When you moved here it was strange for you, wasn't it? RONAY: It was a new place, but it was still the bakery business. GRACER: You probably met a lot of Jews here because of the bakery business. RONAY: Not only through the bakery, but through the synagogue. GRACER: So you didn't feel you were in a non-Jewish community? RONAY: I don't know what it was but I had very few non-Jewish friends. The ones that I had I only met through school; and, when I graduated from high school, I was finished. My parents were not well off at that time. They couldn't afford to send us to college. So that was the end of my education. Almost my first language at that time was Yiddish. I spoke Yiddish as well as I did English. But as the times wore on and my grandmother passed away, I didn't use much Yiddish. I think this is what happened to most of my friends. This is why we enjoy our Yiddish club, we can reminisce in Yiddish. We don't have to read. If I've got a week, I can read very slowly. GRACER: I can redden a bisel Yiddish, just understand Yiddish. RONAY: The Yiddish is coming back slowly. After so many years of not speaking, most of us were not really fluent, but it starts to come back. GRACER: What kind of an accent do you use? Everyone is from a different place. RONAY: I think most of my friends are Oshkinasi, so we all speak the same. GRACER: Who's in your group? RONAY: Well they're all easterners. They're all transplants out here. GRACER: I don't think they're all transplants. RONAY: That's true. Except our children. Most of us have our children born here. GRACER: I don't. I do have one grandchild that was bom here, Meryl. RONAY: Don't forget all three of my children were born here. But I'm very glad that we have this Yiddish club. As I say, to all of us it brings back a lot of memories. You know someday I will be talking about something, and I'll say, "I remember." GRACER: Are they your age? RONAY: They're all about my age. They are all in their late 70s. As a matter of fact, I think there are only two ladies that are older than me. I'm 81, I think there is one 83-year-old one and one 85-year-old one. We're all in fairly good health. In fact, when my son Shane was here and he met my Yiddish club friends he said, "You know, Mom, that's amazing that all you ladies are still up and around and driving cars." He said, "In Muncie there's a lot of old ladies there." So I got such a nice compliment from my son. He says, "Mom, you don't project old age." Well this is my proof. They are a nice group of elderly ladies, and I don't know if we all project old age, but we enjoy each other and our families. Two of them, unfortunately, are widows by now, but the rest of us enjoy our good fortune. I am very fortunate, as I say, I was smart enough to marry somebody six years younger than me, see. GRACER: How did you find the medical community when you moved here? RONAY: I'm trying to remember if there was still a Dr. Eckstein here. You know, I really don't remember much about the doctors. You know my sister Lillian has a better memory than me. If I've left anything out, I think Lillian might be able to help. She's got a phenomenal memory. GRACER: But you're the one that continued on with the bakery; she didn't. RONAY: Well that's because I married a baker. GRACER: What was your wedding like, tell me. RONAY: I had a very nice wedding in the shul. GRACER: You probably had all the baked goods you needed? RONAY: Right. GRACER: Did Bob make the cake? RONAY: Bob made and decorated the cake with one of our bakers, I think his name was George. And George and Bob decorated the cake. It was beautiful. Someplace I may still have a picture of that wedding cake. GRACER: I bet you do because George.... RONAY: And don't forget I wasn't a young bride. I didn't get married until I was 38. GRACER: Oh my God! RONAY: I had my last baby when I was 44, which was phenomenal. Nobody would believe that a 44-year-old mother could have such a bright, lovely... oh my son Shane was... you know all the other kids were great but this last one that came along was a special gift. He was so bright and so happy. Such an easy baby to raise. You know how some babies are. They eat when they're supposed to; they sleep when they're supposed to -- that was Shane. He's still a joy. All my children are nice, but Shane was a born actor. GRACER: How did you name him Shane? RONAY: Because he was so Shane. Actually that's a family name of Bob's. One of his uncles. [Tape runs out. End of interview]