..inte:

Elizabeth Ramenofsky

..intr:

Dorothy Pickelner

..da:

1990

..cp:

1992.003.065
Max Lantin’s store during the building of the Roosevelt Dam, ca. 1907 

..ca:

..ftxt:





An Interview

with

Elizabeth Ramenofsky

March 7, 1990

Transcriber: Karen Hirsch 

Interviewer: Dorothy Pickelner

Arizona Jewish Historical Society

Log for

Elizabeth Ramenofsky Interview

Pages

1-5 Family background. Father's (Max Lantin) migration to Southwest, 1890.
Diamond family in El Paso. Settled in Globe. Solomon family; father's
marriage to Lillie Solomon. Father's mercantile business; Roosevelt Dam.

5-7 Early education in Globe; population profile of Globe. Absence of
Jewish influences until age 10 when Orthodox cousin arrived from Ireland.

8-17 Mother's contentment and social life in Globe. History of Solomon
family dating from 1841 in Poland through migration to Southwest in 1876.
Association of grandfather (Isadore Solomon) with Henry Lesinsky;
establishment of Solomon home in Southeastern Arizona (now Solomonville).
Desire by grandmother to have her children marry in religion caused search
of territory for suitable spouses.

17-19 Early banking by Isadore Solomon and associates; Gila Valley Bank
established.

19-21 Early childhood, best friends Alice Ryan and Kenneth Todd in Globe.
Establishment of another of father's businesses in Los Angeles, California
in 1921. Father returned to Arizona to run businesses there but family
remained in California.

22-23 Education in Los Angeles through high school. College at Berkeley.
First incidence of anti-Semitism experienced. Transferred to USC in 1928;
graduated from University of Illinois in 1930.

23-25 Returned to California; employment and volunteerism.

25-28 Met Abraham Ramenofsky, married in 1936. Early married years, birth
of children, returned to Arizona while husband in army during World War II.
Husband joined family in Globe in 1945. Moved to Phoenix to establish
medical practice.

29-30 First home; first office with Doctors Singer, Joseph, Ehrlich,
Kruglick and McKenna. Office moved to Park Central in 1953 and remained
there until retirement in 1972.

30-33 Family life; children's interests and activities; children's
education; Phoenix in early 1950s.

33-35 Retirement years. Children's spouses and professions; grandchildren.


	Elizabeth Ramenofsky Interview

Pickelner: Good afternoon. This is Dorothy Pickelner and I'm
interviewing Elizabeth Ramenofsky at her home on Berridge Lane in Phoenix,
Arizona on March 7, 1990. Good afternoon, Betty. I'm grateful to you for
allowing us to come in and take this tape because we know what an
interesting story you and your family have to give us and so, we're going
to start right in at the beginning. When did you first come to Arizona and
ah, what were the circumstances?

Ramenofsky: When did I come to Arizona. Well, that will give you
my age, which is alright with me. I was born in Arizona, I was born in
Globe, a mining town in Gila County, in 1908. Um, how did I, louder?
Alright. Um, I happened to be, my family happened to settle in Globe,
Arizona because my father was a merchant there. Ah he, Max Lantin, and he
came to the Southwest, in about 1890. And he came to the Southwest from New
Haven, Connecticut where he had worked ah, as an immigrant without language
or without money. He had to take whatever jobs he could find but there was
a great migration west at that time and he had heard about Arizona, New
Mexico and Texas. He had ____, he had known a family in New Haven by the
name of Diamond who had opened a store in El Paso and as all ethnic groups
congregate and know each other, he was told that there is, might be an
opportunity there for him immediately in touch with Nathan Diamond who was 
running a store. He was employed there at whatever menial job he was, was 
available and he worked there with Nathan's brother, Ike Diamond. And ah, 
but not for long. Once he had a command of English, he moved on to Jerome 
because Jerome was a mining town, the Verde ah, Verde ah, I can't remember 
the name of the mine, but anyway it was a very big operation and he applied 
for a job there and was given work for the company store in the shoe department. 
He worked there a few years and then realized that he wanted his own business so 
he looked at another mining community which was opening up and was quite prosperous 
which was Globe, Arizona. so he went to Globe, and there is a story told now that 
he and Ike discussed where they were going. Ike said, "I'm going to Phoenix." And 
my dad said, "Why do you want to go to Phoenix? There's nothing there. Globe is a 
prosperous mining town." Was that the right
choice? However, he opened a store in Globe and was working there for a
number of years when he ah, was at the age when many young men decide it
was time to settle down and find a wife. There were very few Jewish girls
in, in the territory of Arizona at that time. But the Solomons were very
well know. He was invited to come to visit the Solomons in their town in Graham County.

Pickelner: Which county was that?

Ramenofsky: Graham, Graham County. So he went to Graham County and they
were, he was treated quite royally 'cause the Solomons, my mother's family,
had four daughters. And to find spouses for four daughters in our own
religion was not easy. So when the Solomons found a young man of Jewish
faith, they of course were very eager to make a match, which they did. And
my father was married to Lillie.

Pickelner: And what was your father's name, his full name?

Ramenofsky: Max Lantin, L-A-N-T-I-N. Ah, that involves quite another story 
about the Solomons and that is a long, long story which if I have the time 
and you have the patience I will tell you.

Pickelner: Thank you Betty. Ah, and, and, he met the friends and met their
daughters, their four daughters ...

Ramenofsky: Two of them were married at that time, there were still two
daughters at home.

Pickelner: Ah, hah. And married Lillie.

Ramenofsky: Lillie, L-I-L-L-I-E.

Pickelner: ... L-L-I-E. Lillie Solomon. Okay. And his business. did he
remain in Globe?

Ramenofsky: He remained in Globe and had a men's furnishings store.

Pickelner: And how long did you say he stayed here? Eleven years in Globe?

Ramenofsky: No, he stayed in Globe the rest of his life.

Pickelner: Oh, remained in Globe and, the rest of his life.

Ramenofsky: He passed away there in 1945.

Pickelner: Alive until 1945. Okay.

Ramenofsky: He was very successful as a merchant. When they were building
the Roosevelt Dam, he opened a branch store at Roosevelt, which would now
be the bottom of Roosevelt Lake, and he um, he served as the ah, the ah,
well the banker really because he would cash the checks for the employees
at the dam and there were many. He ran that store until the dam was
completed and the water started to come in, which was 1912, no, no, pardon
me, it was 19 .... about 1908, I think.

Pickelner: What was the name of it again?

Ramenofsky: Roosevelt Dam

Pickelner: The Roosevelt Dam.

Ramenofsky: Yes.

Pickelner: He cashed...

Ramenofsky: ..... the checks for the workmen at the dam.

Pickelner :..... of the workmen of the dam...

Ramenofsky: And sold them their Levis, and their, their boots, and all
their clothing.

Pickelner: What did they call them?

Ramenofsky: Levis.

Pickelner: He sold them Levis ...

Ramenofsky: ... and boots ...

Pickelner: Levis and boots...

Ramenofsky: ... and jackets...

Pickelner: and the jackets, okay.

Ramenofsky: And every Saturday night, when he would close his store in
Globe, he would um, had a two wheel cart and a horse, and he would drive
from Globe to Roosevelt. And he had enough, he always carried enough cash,
to be able to cash the checks for the workmen when they came in on Saturday
night. It was a hazardous trip from Globe to Roosevelt, because people knew
he was carrying money. And he was often stopped and people would inquire
and they would hope to encourage him to give them a ride, or have a drink,
or whatever means they found, to rob him. But fortunately, he was a littler 
wiser than they were and managed to get through.

Pickelner: Thank you Betty, I'll ask a question now. That is most
interesting Betty. did you, were you born in Globe, and did you go to
school there and would you tell us something about your family, your mother
and your family life there.

Ramenofsky: I went to ah, school in Globe. We didn't have a kindergarten in
those days, I went to first grade and ah, and went through the grades up
to, up and through grade six, because that was the time that we made a
major move for our family.

Pickelner: Till, till grade six.

Ramenofsky: Through grade six, right.

Pickelner: Well, what was the major move from then on, and that changed you
life?

Ramenofsky: Our move was to Los Angeles. But I'd like to give you more
background on Globe before we go into the Los Angeles segment. Ah, Globe
was a pretty rough mining town. Um, it was, there were something like
fifteen saloons, there were a lot of cow men, a lot of cow punchers, a lot
of crime that was going on with rustlers, and ah, all of the ah, unsavory
characters that I can bet, inhabited mining camps. However, there was a
group of professionals, brought in by the Old Dominion Mining company.
There were lawyers and doctors and ah, a few other professionals, and there
was a different class, two different classes of people. Like all mining
towns it was a melting pot. We had ah, Czechoslovakians, we had Irish, we
had German, we had ah Slavs of all kinds, Italians, and lots of Mexicans.
The town was about, I would say, forty percent Mexican. And the others were
ethnic groups from Europe. And the reason they were there, because they,
the Irish and the Scottish particularly were very good miners, and they had
a good background in copper. So they were very, they were very useful.

Pickelner: Irish and Scotch?

Ramenofsky: Ah, hah. Um, we had lots of Cornish people and a lot of the
ethnic foods were very common among these Cornish people, and many of them
worked for my father so we had a variety of menus in our home. We always
hired Mexican help, my mother spoke fluent Spanish and ah, managed very
well. My father was a successful businessman, worked very hard, we spent
our summers in California, because very few families who ah, lived in
Arizona without air conditioning in those days spent their summers in
Arizona. My father would work, stay in Globe and work, and then take two
weeks and come to visit us in California.

Pickelner: That's very interesting. Ah, how did you, was there anything
else, were there certain influences on you growing up in this kind of a
community?

Ramenofsky: Indeed there were. Um, there, as a, there was no organized Jewish 
life of any kind. There were a couple, about two other Jewish families, ah, 
and ah, but no, nothing that would give you any Jewish background really. Ah, 
when my father left Europe he left all of that behind him and he was looking 
for economic opportunity. So, we had to put aside the religion, because there 
was no opportunity to follow it. Ah, the only religious background that I had 
was when I was ten years old, my father needed more help in his store. And he 
had two brothers in Ireland, and he, and Ireland was quite depressed during 
those early years, and they sent one of, their oldest son to my father, to work 
in his tore. And his name was ... he had two brothers in Ireland.

Pickelner: In Ireland?

Ramenofsky: Ireland, right. One in Limerick and one in Belfast. The one in
Belfast. My father's brothers. Ah, the one in Belfast was a manufacturer of
linens and he did quite well. But the other family in Limerick were quite
poor, so they were glad to send their son to Arizona to work for my father.
And as you, probably all of you already know, the Irish Jews are Orthodox
Jews. So he came, here comes this young Irishman with a brogue a mile long,
very Jewish in appearance, as to, all the usual features, and he was, he
was a great musician and he was a great influence on me because he was so
religious. He had, he taught me about Passover, he taught me about
Hanukkah, I knew nothing of this up until age ten. Ah, my social life until 
that time was entirely with the gentile community and as I told you there 
were two levels of ah, in the population. There were the mine workers and 
then there were the merchants and the professionals. So my mother had an 
active social life, there was a country club that was built by the
mining company and she, she was very active socially with her, with her
bridge parties, and teas, but my father only worked, worked, worked,
worked.

Pickelner: So it sounds like a very rich, very interesting life that you
had up there. Ah, did you want for anything that you were aware of, did you
feel there was something lacking or did your mother, was she satisfied ah,
with that life, it's hard for a woman to grow up in that, or to make a life
in that kind of community?

Ramenofsky: No my mother was, I never heard her complain about her life,
she seemed very satisfied. She was a very docile person, very docile, very
gentle. Whereas my father was a very strong character. And marriage
relationships in those days, women simply accepted their life as it was and
she, she was very contented. When I tell you about her background you will
understand why she was uncomplaining and very satisfied. I mean she had a
social life, she had a family, we were well off, we had a nice home, and my
father was a good provider. There wasn't much more expected of women in
those days. Pickelner: Tell us about, something about where your mother
came from, and their, her family.

Ramenofsky: Mother was the third of four girls in the Solomon family, there
were six children in all. Ah, their background I think is the story, very long 
and very interesting. And if you really want to pursue this, I, may I suggest 
the book I published on my family which is entitled "From Charcoal to Banking". 
Ah, "The I.E. Solomons of Arizona". It was published by Western Lore Press, in 
Tucson. The Solomons, Anna Solomon and her husband Isadore, came from what is 
known as the Province of Posen. Now if you're anything like me, ah, you wonder 
where, exactly, where Posen is, so I'm going to read to you the exact description. 
"Grand .... Isadore Solomon was born in Kruswich, the Grand Duchy of Posen, on 
May 23, 1841. Posen was part of Poland until the
partition of 1772 and 1793 when it was divided between its neighbors,
Russia, Austria and Prussia. At the time Posen became Prussia's portion in
the settlement, and complete Germanization took place in the government and
in the schools. There was a large Jewish population living in the annexed
area of Poland, because Poland had been very lenient to the treatment of
Jews. But Prussian restrictions were soon imposed. The Solomon family was
part of that German speaking, Jewish population and in 1840, census counted
almost eighty thousand Jews living in that province." Which I ...

Pickelner: That certainly was an interesting background. We know about your
book and are very proud of you, Betty, for the wonderful job you did in recalling 
this most unusual part of Americana, and ah, what can happen to people, what could 
happen to people in this new land, new and rough land. So, now, would you tell us 
about what in your immediate family, ah, when your... (Conversation between 
Pickelner and Ramenofsky briefly, of no consequence, mainly about their drinks.)

Ramenofsky: Anna Solomon was born in Enabratslaw, which was very close to
the town where Isadore was born. Isadore had left his homeland because of
the restrictions that the Prussians had imposed on Jews. He was seventeen
years old and went to New York and then to, ah, Towanda, Pennsylvania,
where he had an uncle. And he worked for his uncle until he learned enough
language to move on. And in 1872, he wanted to marry, so he returned to his
home life, homeland, to find a bride. There he met Anna and they were married 
in 1872. They immediately came to the United States and he set up his own 
business in Towanda, Pennsylvania. He opened a livery stable. He had great 
ability to handle horses and loved horses. No, they, he worked, he conducted 
this livery business until the post-Civil War, the post-Civil War period was 
a time of great depression, great want, and great economic collapse and they 
had three children by that time. So they wanted to have a secure future and 
grandmother at that time, Anna, had family in New Mexico, and this was the 
period of the great migration west. Her family encouraged them to come to 
New Mexico. They were located in Las Cruces, New Mexico. So the year was 1876, 
and they could take a railroad from Towanda to Philadelphia. Philadelphia at 
that time was enjoying the Centennial Exposition. They took the railroad to La 
Junta, Colorado, the end of the railroad. Then they took a stagecoach to Santa 
Fe, New Mexico where they waited for another stage to take them to Las Cruces 
where her family was. Ah, they, to get to Las Cruces from Santa Fe, you had to 
cross the Mescalero reservations. The Mescalero Apaches were a wild bunch and 
they were terrified the whole way but they reached Las Cruces where they remained 
for a very short time because grandfather could not find work there. They heard, 
also, of the opening of copper mines in Arizona. So he, he, and he took his family, 
his wife and three children, theses children
were five, three and nine months, traveling with that kind, that age group,
was ...

Pickelner: Going to ... ?

Ramenofsky: To Clifton, Arizona. So they first stopped in Silver City. And
then on to Clifton, and when they came into Clifton, grandmother had a
cousin there who had opened the first copper mine in that area, the Longfellow 
Mine, which was later sold to a Scottish company and later to Phelps Dodge, 
which is still a producer in that area. (Asks for a drink of water, leaves for 
a brief period).

Okay, are you ready?

Pickelner: Yes.

Ramenofsky: The Longfellow Mine was owned and was opened initially by Henry
Lesinsky, who was grandmother's first cousin. And Henry had a, a very small
operation to begin with...

Pickelner: Just a moment, Betty, what was that, give me that name again?

Ramenofsky: Lesinsky, L-E-S-I-N-S-K-Y, Henry.

Pickelner: Longfellow Mine opened by...

Ramenofsky: Henry Lesinsky.

Pickelner: Okay. L-E-S-I-N-S-K-Y.

Ramenofsky: Ah, hah. He started with very limited capital, and worked very
hard. He was, there's a very good bit of research in a publication that I
did on Henry Lesinsky, which you can probably find at the National
Historical, I mean the Arizona Historical Foundation. Ah, Henry Lesinsky
was a man who'd had a very hard life and he never smiled, he was never
happy, he only wanted to make it, strike it big in mining. So he certainly did. 
He sold the Longfellow Mine to a Scottish company for two million dollars. And 
he was the op--he was running the mine and then my grandfather came with his 
wife and three children, he was hopeful that he would be offered a job in the 
company store or in the mine, in the mine office. However Lesinsky said, "I 
don't need any help in the office or in the store, but you can work in the 
open pit if you like for four dollars a day and ten hours of work" which 
grandfather did. He was working there with a Mexican miner, digging out, 
and blasting, and made an observation that determined his future in Arizona. 
The Longfellow Mine was fueled by char--by timber that was cut from the 
surrounding mountains. And Lesinsky was running out of timber, there was 
no coal or coke in the area at the time because the railroads were not 
there. The railroads didn't come in until 1879 and this was 1876. But 
Solomon knew how to make charcoal so he told Lesinsky he would deliver 
charcoal to the mine pit for thirty dollars a ton, and was given the 
contract. He loaded his family into their wagon and went down to the valley, 
to the Gila Valley, and settled in a place, a little Mexican village, called 
Pueblo Viego, because that was a choice spot for the virgin growth of mesquite 
wood along the Gila River, mesquite trees, pardon me.

Pickelner: Mesquite?

Ramenofsky: Mesquite, m-e-s-q-u-i-t-e. And, so he started cutting trees, he
hired wood cutters, and he banked hod fires and burned charcoal and
delivered it to the mine in wagons. This was their foothold in southeastern
Arizona and from that point on, they, they developed every resource that
they needed to survive. They, they had developed agriculture, raised very,
um, um, verdant crops, sold their, their grain and wheat and corn to the
government quartermaster who needed great amount, large amounts of produce
to supply his troops that were stationed in three forts surrounding that
area. The forts were there to control the apaches because this was Apache
land.

Pickelner: It was Apache country?

Ramenofsky: Yes, yes. The government had um, confined, attempted to confine
them on the San Carlos Reservation which was only sixty miles from the
Solomon home. But, ah, but the Indians considered all the land theirs, and
they would break out and they would raid through the valley, burning and
plundering ranches and, and destroying settlements all the way into Sonora,
Mexico. So they had many hazards and many handicaps to fight: weather,
which was beastly hot in the summer, they had wild ani--wild Indians close
by, and they had very meager facilities. They had, from that, from that
humble beginning, they built every resource from scratch. Their mercantile 
company to supply their town with ah, merchandise that was needed, agriculture, 
um, irrigation systems, freighting, stage lines, wheat mills, a hotel, and 
promoted the creation of Graham County, and Solomonville became the county 
seat. With that you had a great influx of ah, lawyers and legal talent 
because they had, they held the District Court there. The Solomons had three 
more children, in addition to the three that came with them, and grandmother 
was very determined that her children were educated in a different environment 
that what they had in the local schools. The local schools were eighty percent 
Mexican speaking people. So grandmother arranged to send her four girls to New 
York to boarding schools, and her oldest son to Germany for education, because 
her father there was a very educated man.

Pickelner: Sent her four daughters to ...

Ramenofsky: ... a boarding school. Do you want the name?

Pickelner: Where?

Ramenofsky: New York City. Mrs. Wyler's Boarding School.

Pickelner: Yeah. Betty, can you tell us what happened to these children
later on, did they remain in America, in the southwest, and did your
father's family remain where they were?

Ramenofsky: All of the family, my grandmother was very determined,
that her children marry in their religion. So she found four eligible
bachelors in Arizona, incredible as that seems, but the way she found them
was to send her oldest son scouting around the territory in order to find
where people, where young Jewish men were located. And if they met the
Solomon standards of character, they were invited to come and meet the
girls. So the first marriage, a man, the first, the first daughter to be
married was Eva, who was the oldest. And ah, her, the oldest son had
located a young man in Phoenix by the name of David Goldberg. David
Goldberg was the Second son of ah, the Goldberg family and they had, they
had a store on Washington Street called "Goldberg Brothers" which later
became known as "Hanny's" which we know today. Ah, this David Goldberg was
a very fine looking young man and he met the requirements and he was
invited to Solomonville to meet Eva but when he came to Solomonville he
didn't, he wasn't interested in Eva. He had seen Rose, the second daughter,
so he was much more interested in Rose, but, and wanted to marry her. My
grandmother would never permit the second daughter to marry before the
first, So She sent her son scouting the territory again to find a husband
for Eva. He was found in Holbrook, Arizona, and he was a cattleman, and he
was invited to Solomonville and that was, that marriage was arranged. In order 
to make sure that they were married in chronological order, they had a double 
wedding in El Paso and it was a very elegant wedding. It was written up ah, in 
such detail, it was really a magnificent thing in those days -

Pickelner: Okay, double wedding in El Paso. Ah, um, you can just go on
talking about your...

Ramenofsky: You ready? Julius Wessler was a, as I said he was a cattleman,
and the Wessler name became very prominent in all of cattle, wait a minute,
how will I say that, in, in the cattle industry and they ran a very big
operation and one of Julius's sons, the second son, Julius, I'm messing
this up, can you block that out?

Pickelner: Go back to the beginning, from, where you tell about your
mother.

Ramenofsky: Okay. My mother, Lillie, was the next girl in line to be
married and ah, ah, the oldest son, Charles, was sent to find a candidate
for her and he found Max Lantin in Globe. And I think I told you that
story, that Max was invited to Solomonville, and ultimately the marriage
took place. But before this, Lillie had a love affair with a, a young law
clerk who had come to Solomonville as a result of the county seat, and the
district court and he fell in love with Lillie who was the prettiest, most
charming of the Solomon girls. And they had planned to be married. And the 
reason Anna found this out, she knew of course that Lillie was seeing this 
young man but she didn't know that they had marriage plans. But a letter, 
Anna's sister, Freida, was the postmistress and she intercepted a letter 
from Mr. Sains to Lillie talking of marriage and she told her sister Anna 
and Anna immediately broke that up and took Lillie and went to Europe for 
a visit. And they were gone for three months, and by the time they returned, 
Mr. Sains had moved to Douglas.

Pickelner: Was this man not Jewish, Lillie's lover, that was why the mother
scotched that?

Ramenofsky: Of course, that was the only complaint because he was an
educated, charming, ah, well respected young man, but he wasn't Jewish. So
Lillie was engaged to Max Lantin, without any approval or disapproval.

Pickelner: And she came back and married Max.

Ramenofsky: Dorothy, may I ask, why do you write all this if I'm telling
it?

Pickelner: These are notes, so that when the tape, when the log ...

Ramenofsky: Is there anything else?

Pickelner: Is there anything else here, Betty, about your, the ancestors
that you want to tell, I know that Solomonville was named after them, what
else was continued.

Ramenofsky: Well the ah, grandfather was the postmaster there for fifteen
years, so the town was named after him and although now you see Solomon is
not Solomonville on the map it's simply Solomon. And the reason is that
some careless postal clerk who didn't have much respect for history, just
lopped off Solomonville and left, so just left Solomon and there's an
effort right now to restore the original name which was Solomonville. Ah, as 
I mentioned earlier, every resource that was necessary for the development of 
that Gila Valley was started by Solomon and his associates. Um, one of the, 
the thing that, one of the things that is remembered most prominently in history 
is the establishment of the Valley National Bank. At that time, at the end of the 
nineteenth century, there was, there were no banking facilities in that area 
closer than a hundred and twenty-five miles and as I mentioned before, travel 
was very hazardous, so there was a lot of pressure locally to open a bank. 
Until that time, the local merchant served as the banker, he made loans, he, 
he gave credit, he ah, people deposited their money in his safe without ever 
asking for a receipt, he was respected as a man of high integrity and honesty. 
But when the end of this century was approaching, he, and a few of his associates, 
decided to charter a bank, which they did, there were seven of them, and they 
opened the first bank in the area under the name of the Gila Valley Bank which 
prospered from the beginning because of the necessity for this kind of service. 
It quickly branched and opened additional branches in Clifton, Morenci, and 
Globe. The danger of transferring money in those days when highwaymen and 
bandits were rampant in the area was always a great risk. So when they opened 
the first branch in Clifton, they transported the money by a young woman who was the
bookkeeper in the store, and she, they had, they tied bags of coins around
her waist, and it gave her a very distorted figure, but she climbed into
the buggy with Solomon and ah, started on her way to Clifton. Nobody knew
that this girl, this young woman, was carrying enough money to open the
first branch bank in Clifton. Because it was thought in those days that a
bandit or highwayman would never rob a woman so they though that was the
wisest way to go, and it apparently was, because she made it there
uneventfully.

Pickelner: That was a very interesting story. They never robbed women, huh?
Good idea, now will you continue your own story, Betty?

Ramenofsky: Now that you have a background on my mother's family,
I have told you very little about my father's family because I really
didn't know any of them, except one brother who came to Globe and, in early
in the history of this family, and worked for my father and then ultimately
opened his own store, and this nephew that I told you about who came to
help, work for my father. Beside the branch that was also opened at
Roosevelt Dam, my father also had a branch in Miami, which was another
copper, and copper mining town just seven miles from Globe. My own story, um, 
my childhood was very average, very normal. My friends were all among the 
non-Jewish population, and neighbors and classmates. My best friend was an 
Irish girl called Alice Ryan and she was the daughter of William Ryan who 
opened drug stores in Globe and ultimately in Phoenix. It became known as 
Ryan-Evans. Isn't that interesting? My other childhood friend whom I still 
see is Kenneth Todd who went through grade school with me up until I, we left 
when I was, finished grade six. Kenneth Todd is a local attorney with O'Connor, 
Cavanaugh and he has been our attorney since we came back to Arizona.

Pickelner: How did you get to Phoenix and when did you establish your home
there, Betty?

Ramenofsky: In 1921, after the first world War, as I told you this young
man from Ireland had come to work for father, and he kept telling Dad, "You've 
got to, you don't want to rear this family in a mining town without any cultural 
or real educational opportunities. Why don't you move to the city." Well of 
course everybody in Arizona has always looked to California as the garden spot 
of the world. So Dad began to think of moving to California. They, we had, my 
parents had decided to send my brother away previously to a military school in 
Los Angeles, it was called Harvard Military School, and a, Philip had, my brother's 
name was Philip, I only had one brother and no sisters, he was there for a couple 
of years, and my father began to think of moving our residence to California. And 
he was still a young man and he wanted something to do in California. So he decided 
to open an importing linen business, and he and his brother, who I told you had 
opened a store down the street from my father, decided that this was a good 
opportunity. They had a brother in Ireland who was a linen manufacturer. In the 
1920s, linen was very, dress linens, were very much in demand. So they decided to 
open the Lantin Importing Company in Los Angeles where they um, do you want me to 
stop a minute?

Pickelner: Um, Betty, was that the Lantins, the name was the Lantin Linen
Company?

Ramenofsky: Uh, huh, the Lantin Importing Company.

Pickelner: Lantin...

Ramenofsky: Lantin Importing ...

Pickelner: Lantin Importing Company. Okay, go on.

Ramenofsky: They, this would, this would provide a break from the mining
town environment for the family. My dad's brother had two children, and it
was an opportunity they wanted to pursue. So we moved our residence from
Globe to Los Angeles and we bought a home there ...

Pickelner: ... in Los Angeles.

Ramenofsky: Right, to Los Angeles and bought a home there, and I went, I
went first to a junior high school and then to L.A. High School. And my father 
and his brother continued in the importing business which was successful until 
my uncle, my father's brother, passed away at a very early age, he was 
forty-eight years old and my father was so discouraged by that, that he decided 
he no longer wanted to be in the importing business, he had his business in Globe 
which still needed his attention, so they liquidated the importing company and he 
returned to Globe, leaving my mother and me in Los Angeles. He took my brother 
with him to run the store.

Pickelner: Your father decided to go back to ...

Ramenofsky: He liquidated the importing company and moved@back to Globe.

Pickelner: Yeah. What date was that?


	End of Side One, Tape One


Side Two, Tape One

Ramenofsky: ... sent back to Globe to straighten out his business there
because things had run into the ground pretty much when he had other people
running his store. So he returned to Globe and then he sent for my brother
who had just finished high school and had him come and ah, run the store.
So we kept our home in Los Angeles where mother and I were living and my
father would travel back and forth between Los Angeles and Globe
periodically.

Pickelner: Globe and L.A. and he commuted back and forth.

Ramenofsky: Yeah. After I, my friends in Los Angeles were Jewish girls
which I had never had the opportunity with whom to associate before. And I
had very good friends, Eleanor Newmark, do you want these names, they're
Los Angeles history.

Pickelner: No, not especially, Newmark, etc. Okay.

Ramenofsky: And when I graduated from high school in 1925, I had elected to
go to Berkeley to start my college education.

Pickelner: Yes. To go to Berkeley, okay.

Ramenofsky: And, I went with a friend of mine from Los Angeles and we had
made reservations at a boarding house which was considered one of the
better boarding houses on the Berkeley campus. But when we arrived we were told 
that they could not accept us. We had sent our, in those days you carried, you 
took your trunk and you sent everything ahead of you, they would not commit us 
to stay there. Of course we realized that it was because we were Jewish, which 
was my first encounter with anti-Semitism. Because in Globe we never knew 
anti-Semitism. We took temporary residence in another boarding house which 
wasn't so restrictive and pledged, went through pledge, and jointed A.E. Phi.

Pickelner: ... and joined A.E. Phi, yeah.

Ramenofsky: I only stayed on the Berkeley campus for two years because my
mother was left alone too much in Los Angeles. I wasn't talking into this?

Pickelner: She was still living in Los Angeles?

Ramenofsky: Yeah, I had to return to Los Angeles after two years at
Berkeley because my mother was alone too much, because my father had to be
in Arizona so much. Ah, so I, I took my last, my junior year at USC, and
then transferred to the University of Illinois, because a friend of mine
had influenced me to go to Illinois. I had spent my entire life to that
point in the West.

Pickelner: ... Illinois.

Ramenofsky: Champagne.

Pickelner: Champagne, yeah.

Ramenofsky: After I graduated I came home, and that was 1930, was the depth of 
the Depression.

Pickelner: You graduated in 1930?

Ramenofsky: Right.

Pickelner: ... in 1930, depth of Depression.

Ramenofsky: I had majored in economics, and I though I could f ind a job in
a mortgage company, or some financial institution, a bank, or, but there
were no jobs in 1930, that was the depth of the Depression. So I finally
found a job in a mortgage company down on Spring Street and worked there
for probably six months or so, and then my best friend was the daughter of
a woman who was very prominent in charitable organizations in Los Angeles,
and she had organized a group of volunteers to help the doctors to man the
clinic at Cedars of Lebanon Hospital because they could not afford to hire
doctors and pay help. So they gave us, my friend, and her mother, convinced
me that I should join that group as a volunteer. So I did, they gave us a
three month training course so we could help the doctors that worked in the
clinic.

Pickelner: At the clinic in... ?

Ramenofsky: Cedars of Lebanon.

Pickelner: Cedars of Lebanon, yeah.

Ramenofsky: So I worked there until one of the doctors I was working for
asked me if I would come to work in his office, because I had some
shorthand and typing experience and he offered me twenty-five dollars a week 
so I thought well that's better than volunteering so I went to work. His 
office was in the Roosevelt Building on Seventh Street and Flower, downtown 
Los Angeles. I worked for him for a year, and then, an Ear, Nose and Throat 
man in that office offered my thirty dollars a week, so I changed jobs. The 
Ear, Nose and Throat office was much more interesting, it was a big practice, 
they did all the railroad work, all the Southern Pacific work, it was a busy
office with ten treatment rooms, so I had plenty of experience. The ...

Pickelner: Ear, Nose and Throat man.

Ramenofsky: Ear, Nose and Throat, ah hum. When I went to lunch every day,
there was a girl that was a secretary for a social friend of mine who was
Dr. Tyroler, T-Y-R-0-L-E-R. Tyrolers had come from Arizona, the northern,
this young doctor was the son of Dr. Adolph Tyroler who had worked in...

Pickelner: ... from Globe?

Ramenofsky: No, no, from, um, Holbrook, Holbrook and Williams. So I knew
him well and his secretary was my lunch companion. So one day, I went in
to, to, her name was Molly, and I went in to get Molly to go to lunch with
me, and there was a young man sitting in her office waiting for his friend,
a classmate of his, he was waiting for him to go to lunch. And she introduced 
me and his name was Dr. Ramenofsky. Ah...

Pickelner: Introduced him to another young doctor, another young doctor,
young man waiting, young ...

Ramenofsky: ... waiting for his classmate.

Pickelner: Waiting for his classmate, yeah.

Ramenofsky: Ah, and he was very friendly and very handsome.

Pickelner: ... his name was Dr. Ramenofsky, ah, hah. Dr. Ramenofsky,
handsome and pleasant. Okay

Ramenofsky: He was visiting from Illinois, had his mother and sister with
him. And they were going to Mexico.

Pickelner: They were making a trip?

Ramenofsky: To Mexico.

Pickelner: A sister...

Ramenofsky: You see they had come from, he had brought his mother and
sister, his mother was a widow, brought them from...

Pickelner: From L.A. to Mexico for a trip...

Ramenofsky: And when he, a few days later he returned and asked me out.

Pickelner: Asked for a date, yeah.

Ramenofsky: And, I had, the second date with him...

Pickelner; It's playing back but where's the sound.

Ramenofsky: ... come and visit in his mother's home when I had my vacation.
Am I giving you too much detail, Dorothy?

Pickelner: No, but then we'll speed it up, this is interesting.

Ramenofsky: Which I did. We became engaged ...

Pickelner: ... became engaged, yeah...

Ramenofsky: And married in Los Angeles ...

Pickelner: Married in L.A....

Ramenofsky: In 1936.

Pickelner: In 1936, okay.

Ramenofsky: We returned after a honeymoon through the Canal, Panama Canal
...

Pickelner: You went to the honeymoon to Panama?

Ramenofsky: My parents gave me that trip through the Panama Canal ...

Pickelner: Honeymoon at ...

Ramenofsky: Through, because we went to New York, we went all the way
through.

Pickelner: Oh, we went on a tour.

Ramenofsky: We made a trip from Los Angeles, through the Panama Canal, to
New York.

Pickelner: Through the Panama Canal. I want to make sure this is recording.

Ramenofsky: Can you listen back, so you know where I stopped?

Pickelner: I want to make sure ...

(Tape advanced a couple of minutes)

(Conversation continues)

Ramenofsky: ... we were in Wichita for a year and a half and our life there
was very pleasant. The medical corps had about seven or eight Jewish
officers and it was a very nice group and the local people in Wichita Falls 
were very friendly, they opened the country club to us and ah, many local 
facilities. During that time, our second child was born, who was Ann and 
when she was nine months old, Abe was sent, he was given his overseas order.

Pickelner: I didn't hear that.

Ramenofsky: When Ann was nine months old, Abe received his overseas orders. 
He was to report to Jefferson Barracks in St. Louis and I was left in Wichita 
Falls with Max and Ann.

Pickelner: He was sent to...

Ramenofsky: Jefferson Barracks, in St. Louis. I was, I remained in the
house we were renting with Max and Ann, and ah, prepared to move to my
parent's home in Globe, Arizona. I forgot to mention previously, that after
I left home and was married in '36, my parents moved back to Globe, left
Los Angeles, because mother was alone and my father had to be in Globe. So
they built a home, a new home in Globe, and when Abe was sent overseas,
they wanted me to come home. I would have preferred to go to Los Angeles
where I had friends. I had not been in Globe for many, many years. The
travel was difficult during the war years, I had a car to drive, you
couldn't get gas, you couldn't get tires, and when yours were gone, you
were without any transportation. So I listened to my father and went to Globe 
and stayed there with my two children.

Pickelner: Till Max came back.

Ramenofsky: Until Abe came back. Ah hah. During the time I was there, my
father died.

Pickelner: Yes. Father died, in '45. Okay.

Ramenofsky: When Abe returned at the end of the war, when he returned to
join us in Globe, he realized that Arizona had been a good place for us.
Our son, who had been sick a lot in Illinois with bronchitis and the
children had done well in Globe. So he decided it might be the best thing
for us to stay in Arizona. He had to take the basic science exam because
there was no reciprocity for medical license if you've been out of school 
more than ten years. He had been out seventeen years. So he studied for 
the basic science exam, and passed the exam, and was licensed in Arizona. 
He thought Phoenix was very much in need of doctors, because the local 
doctors had all gone into, not all, but many of them, had gone into 
service and Phoenix was beginning to grow, at that time it had a population 
of about thirty-five thousand and many people who had been stationed here 
or were passing through, realized it was a good place to live. So with the 
growth of population and the shortage of doctors, he decided to open a 
practice here.

... unless you don't want any more.

Pickelner: Oh no. Betty, this is very interesting, at this point, ah, tell
us about life in Arizona in those early days, 1945, '46, when you first
started. Thank you

Ramenofsky: Well the first thing that Abe had to, we bought a home, 916
East Cambridge, ah, there was nothing to rent because nothing had been
built during the war. So we bought a small home, it's down there near North
High, and began, looked for an office. There were no office spaces, nothing
had been built, and the men who had left the professional building, which
had been the only ah, professional building in town, the men who had left
for the service, retained their office space. So the new doctors that came
in, opened up in the, a, converted loft at ...

Pickelner: He and two others?

Ramenofsky: Well I'll tell you who they are ... opened up a, a man from
Chicago had opened up the second story at 39 West Adams. That's the corner
of First Avenue and Adams. And the new doctors that took space there were
the following: Dr. Singer, who shared space in Abe's office; what's that other 
man's name, Dr. Sam Joseph, and then there were, the other offices were
occupied by Dr. Erlich, Dr. Kruglick, and ah, the only non-Jew there was
Dr. McKenna.

Pickelner: Dr. McKenna?

Ramenofsky: Uh, huh.

Pickelner: Where was the space?

Ramenofsky: 39 West Adams. As soon as better facilities were available, Abe
rented space in a building that Dr. Joseph Bank had opened on the corner of
McKinley and First Avenue, just behind the Westward Ho.

Pickelner: First Avenue and Dr. Bank. That's a familiar name.

Ramenofsky: What a tragedy ... what tragedy that was there. From the first
week of his practice, he was always busy.

Pickelner: From the first week...

Ramenofsky: From the first week of his practice, he was always busy. His
competence, his personality, his caring for people opened the door to
success. Your didn't record that so that's fine. You didn't record that?

Pickelner: No not yet. When Park Central was opened...

Ramenofsky: When Park Central was opened in 1953 he took space there which
he retained until he retired in 1972, '72, right.

Pickelner: He stayed there ...

Ramenofsky: Until 1972, when he retired. Um, our family life was a happy
storybook tale. We had two more children, Marilyn was born in 19 ... let's
see, 1946 ...

Pickelner: Marilyn?

Ramenofsky: Ah huh, no she was born in 1947 ...

Pickelner: 1947.

Ramenofsky: '47, and Jane in 1953 ...

Pickelner: And Jane?

Ramenofsky: Uh huh. Jane Beth, in 1953. We were a very active family, we
did everything together. Vacations, sports activities, ah, we were involved
in everything that the children were interested in. Scouting, ah, what else
can I think of, music, ah, community, temple, community activities, ah and
a great deal in sports. Horseback riding, we had horses in our back yard,
horses in our back yard after 1953 when we moved to our present residence.

Pickelner: '53, horses in the back yard.

Ramenofsky: All the water sports, skiing, and lots of swimming. But I
don't, in 1964 ...

Pickelner: Okay now, wait. Schools, okay.

Ramenofsky: Go ahead, you wanted to ask...

Pickelner: Where did the children go to school and what kind of students
were they?

Ramenofsky: Max, our eldest, was in, was admitted to Dartmouth College in
Hanover, New Hampshire and he graduated from there in 1961.

Pickelner: 19...

Ramenofsky: ..... 61. And then on to medical school.

Pickelner: To medical school.

Ramenofsky: Ann went to University of California at Berkeley, my alma
mater.

Pickelner: USC.

Ramenofsky: No UC, University of California at Berkeley.

Pickelner: ... at Berkeley, yeah.

Ramenofsky: Marilyn went to Pomona, I'll tell you, she was admitted there
in 1964, but because she had qualified for the United States Olympic team
they deferred her acceptance until 1965.

Pickelner: To Olympic team in 1964?

Ramenofsky: Right.

Pickelner: Swim team.

Ramenofsky: Um, hum. She competed in Tokyo and we all went ...

Pickelner: Tokyo ...

Ramenofsky: She competed in Tokyo and won a silver medal ...

Pickelner: Got silver medal, yeah, I remember that.

Ramenofsky: In the 400 meter freestyle.

Pickelner: In 400 meter freestyle, okay.

Ramenofsky: We were fortunate enough to be able to witness that, when we
went to Tokyo.

Pickelner: You were fortunate enough to be there, yeah. Betty, where did
they go to high school?

Ramenofsky: Ah, Max went to West High and girls all went to Central.

Pickelner: I thought they went to Camelback.

Ramenofsky: No, this is Central District here.

Pickelner: Oh, went to ... Max went to ...

Ramenofsky: ... West, ah huh, Central wasn't open when he went to West.

Pickelner: And the girls all went to Central, okay. Okay now...

Ramenofsky: You didn't get it?

Pickelner: Let's see, let me go back... (Blank space 25 seconds)

Pickelner: There, okay.

Ramenofsky: After Abe retired and we had time, did you ask, wait a minute.

Pickelner: Betty, was Phoenix as good after it began to grow so fast as it
was during the late '40s and '50s when you first came?

Ramenofsky: We were very content with Phoenix after the war when it was
around forty, forty-five thousand people. We knew there was many areas that
needed to develop educationally, culturally, ah, a lot of things we had not
grown into yet, but we were very satisfied, Abe was making a success at his
profession, and our children were healthy and growing up in a very normal
fashion. However with the great influx of population, it has changed
enormously and I can't say we are always pleased with what we see. Ah, the 
wester element that we all found so charming is disappearing gradually, 
particularly in recent years. The influence of different sections of the 
country is not always desirable. We have many situations which have
grown as a result of population growth, and the proximity to Mexico and
California has made a great difference.

Pickelner: What did you do after Abe retired?

Ramenofsky: We decided it was time for us to do some traveling. We were
free, Jane had, the last of our children, had enrolled in the University of
Arizona and she was managing very well there, so we decided to take some
trips. We preferred not to go on tours, we don't like to be herded around
with a lot of people and shown what they want to show us. So we chose to
travel by freighter. Our first trip was on a Yugoslavian freighter to Europe,
southern Europe, Spain, Italy, Trieste, Yugoslavia was a wonderful trip.
The second trip was our best to southeast Africa where we had three months
and we could tour Africa on our own. We left the ship in Capetown and met
it again before it departed in Mombasa. We visited Victoria Falls,
Johannesburg, Milawi, Kenya, made wonderful friends in Rhodesia whom we
visited on their ra--on their farm, their ten thousand acre farm. We were
there with them for a week and then made the tour, hired a bus and made the
tour of the game parks in Kenya and returned from Mombasa on our ship. Our
third trip was to south Af--to south America and our last one was to India,
and the far Pacific, we went to India, to Sri Lanka to Japan, to Mombasa, no, 
no, ah, Delhi, we went to the Taj Mahal, ah, and ah, enjoyed a lot of time 
in India. Since, then after, during inter-inter, in between these long freighter 
trips, Abe decided to go back to school and take art courses at Phoenix College 
because he has a great talent for art, and ah, basically knows anatomy, so he 
was a great asset in the life drawing classes. The teacher wanted him to teach 
life drawing because he knew anatomy and knew where the muscles were and all 
the parts of the body. However he chose to do watercolor and he did many nice 
things for us and even displayed some. I decided it was time for me to go back 
to school, so I took some Spanish courses at Phoenix College, which has stood 
me in very good stead at this point in my life. We visited our children 
frequently, Max at the University of Pittsburgh, where he's a pediatric surgeon, 
Ann is an archaeologist, a professor of archeology at the University of New 
Mexico in Albuquerque, Marilyn is a zoologist at the University of Washington 
in Seattle and she's, and Jane is in Seattle and she's a graduate RN. You want 
me to be, we taught them to be independent and they have gone where they're 
assigned and fulfilled their needs. They're, three of them are in academics, 
and of course in that, in those fields you have to go where the jobs are. Max 
is a full professor at the University of Pittsburgh, Ann is associate professor 
at the University of New Mexico in Albuquerque, Marilyn is a researcher, has 
a Ph.D. in zoology and does her research and teaching at the University of 
Washington, and Jane is a graduate nurse. Max is married to Melissa Babbich 
from Pennsylvania, ah, Ann is married to Tom Wood of ah, Berkeley, Marilyn is 
married to John Wingfield who is a Ph.D. from England and works in the same field 
that she does, and Jane is married to Jim Stewart of Washington.

Pickelner: Thank you very much, Betty. It's a fascinating story and we hope
that your family will continue to bring joy to you and that the
grandchildren will be a source of great happiness to you. Oh, of course how
many grandchildren do you have?

Ramenofsky: We have seven grandchildren, and momentarily we are expecting
the eighth.

Pickelner: Thank you Betty, we hope that you will be as wonderful as all
the other children have been. We wish you good fortune, good luck, good
health. Thank you very much, Betty.

	[end of transcript]