..inte: Rabbi Albert Plotkin ..intr: Bobbi Kurn ..da: 1999 ..cp: 1993.036.196 Rabbi Albert Plotkin soon after his arrival in Phoenix, 1955. ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Rabbi Albert Plotkin March 15, 1999 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Bobbi Kurn Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log for Albert Plotkin Interview Page 2 Born South Bend, Indiana 1920 Sam/Sophie Plotkin 2 Parents Oleznetzuky/Novak 3 Grandparents Abraham/Riva Oleznetzuky Hershel/Brocho Plotkin 3 Wife and family Sylvia Pinkus Isador/Rose Pinkus Melvin Pinkus 3 Children Janis Lee/Debra 3- 5 Reason for coming to Arizona Rabbi Abraham Lincoln Krohn Harry Rosenzweig Harold Diamond Helen Diamond Myra Spring Charlie Korrick Nat Silverman 5- 6 Three congregations in 1955 Al Brooks 7- 8 Believed women should be in rabbinate Dr. Morgenstern Dr. Nelson Glueck Bonnie Kopell Judy Shanks Judy Rosenthal Lydia Wechsler Wendy Drucker 8-10 Temple Beth Israel Stephen S. Weiss Golda Meir Rabbi Mort Fierman Rabbi Floyd Fierman 11 Leaders of Temple Beth Israel Harry/Newton Rosenzweig David Bush Harold Diamond Archie Kroloff Helen Wolf Helen Kaplan Hirsh Kaplan Fran Frazin Burt Lewin Mal Straus Kenneth Diamond Page 11 Started camp Irv Pearlstein Morris Lerner Nat Silverman Aubrey Grouskay 12 Civil rights/anti-Semitism Barry Goldwater Puliam 13 Arizona Ministerial Association Culver Nelson Bill Smith Monsignor Robert Donehoe Fred Barnhill 13 North Phoenix Corporate Ministry Sister Christine Athans 14 Received Mantis award 14 Outspoken on civil rights; made changes Martin Luther King 14 Pushed for bat mitzvahs Lois Chesler Cantor Maurice Chesler 15 Director of education Phil Chapman 15 Worked with Jewish Family Service Florence Frank Hirsh Kaplan 16-17 Benefits given by temple 17 Anti-Semitism Jack Stewart 17 Became a goodwill ambassador Dorothy Pickelner 18 Organized JNF and AIPAC Bud Goldman Governor Williams Rose Mofford 18-19 Joined with another rabbi Rabbi Robert Scott B. Charles Herring Jeffrey Ableser 19-20 Reason for moving temple Steve Richards 20 Moved to Sedona Jerry Kane Mike Rosenthal Rabbi Albert Plotkin Interview KURN: My name is Bobbi Kurn. We are in Phoenix Arizona. Today's date is March 15, 1999. With us today is Rabbi Albert Plotkin. Rabbi, thank you for allowing us to interview you. PLOTKIN: Thank you for the invitation. KURN: This will be for the Jewish Historical Society. So, we do thank you. Let us spend just a few minutes telling us when and where you were born. PLOTKIN: I was born on the 9th of September, 1920 in South Bend, Indiana - my parents had come to South Bend. My father came in 1911. He was brought over to this country by his sister; he came to this country with his brother. They were supposed to go to Chicago, but my aunt got mixed up, and she went to South Bend - that's how we all got there - by mistake. But we stayed. My father and his brother then proceeded to bring over the rest of the family and that included two sisters and altogether six brothers, and then the last one to come was the grandfather who didn't want to come, but when his wife died he came he came after World War 1. He came to this country about three weeks before I was born, because he held me on his lap while I had my bris on the eighth day - as the first born son. So, my beginnings were as a Hoosier boy and there I remained until I was 21. KURN: Tell us the name of your parents. PLOTKIN: Sam and Sophie Plotkin. KURN: What was your mother's maiden name? PLOTKIN: My mother's name originally was Oleznetzuky, but the name that they took when they came here was Novak. But the original name in Odessa was Oleznetzuky. They shortened it to Novak when they came to this country, because her two brothers had come earlier to escape the draft in Russia, since they'd have to serve 25 years, so they jumped ship and bribed the officials and came here. Then, when her father died, who was a very prominent Russian merchant - sold uniforms to the Russian army - contracted Yellow Fever when he went to visit an army base to sell uniforms, and then came home, tragically, and died at 44. That's when her two brothers and family then brought them to Chicago in 1912. KURN: And your mother's parents' names were? PLOTKIN: My mother's parents' names were Abraham and Riva Oleznetzuky (Novak). KURN: And your father's parents? PLOTKIN: Was Hershel and Brocho Plotkin. KURN: How do you spell that? PLOTKIN: Brocho, B-r-o-c-h-o. KURN: Do you have any brothers or sisters? PLOTKIN: I have one younger brother who's deceased, who was five years younger. KURN: His name? PLOTKIN: Robert Plotkin. KURN: And your wife's name. PLOTKIN: Sylvia Pinkus. And her parents were Isador and Rose Pinkus. She is survived by her brother, Melvin Pinkus, who is a retired accountant who lives in Millbrae, California. KURN: Sylvia was born where? PLOTKIN: Sylvia was born in Seattle, Washington - July 6, 1924. KURN: And your children's names? PLOTKIN: Children's names are Janis Lee, who was born in Spokane, Washington, and Debra, who was born in Spokane. Both my girls were born in Spokane, Washington. KURN: And they are not married? PLOTKIN: No, they are not married. KURN: Okay. Well, tell us why you all came to Arizona. PLOTKIN: Because I fell in love with it. I came here for a rabbinic convention in 1950. I left Spokane and it was 20 above with a terrible snowstorm. I didn't even think we could get out. I went by railroad; there was no way to fly, so we took the train all the way to Portland and then at Portland we changed and took the train all the way to Arizona. That was a night and almost a whole day to get here in 1950. I came here and it was so gorgeous in January, I said to Sylvia, "God, this is where I've got to be. Why do I have to shovel all that snow up in Spokane?" It was gorgeous up there; we lived in a beautiful park overlooking the whole mountain. It's a lovely community, it was a very small congregation, but I was very, very active in the community, but I fell in love with Arizona. It was there that I got to meet Rabbi Abraham Lincoln Krohn - we became very close friends. But that even started before I came to Phoenix. KURN: Tell me his name again. PLOTKIN: Krohn, K-r-o-h-n, Abraham Lincoln Krohn. He was born on Abraham Lincoln's birthday and his father said to his wife, "Well, we were going to name him Abraham anyway, but since he's born on Lincoln's birthday, we might as well give him the middle name Lincoln." So, that's how he got the name Abraham Lincoln Krohn. I met Abraham Lincoln Krohn the first week I was in the rabbinate. I was assistant rabbi in Seattle, Washington and we held the first youth conference of the west coast at Lake Tahoe. We were at a Presbyterian clan called Zepper's Cove(?). I brought 35 screaming young kids from the youth group to this conference and meeting me at the bus station was Abraham Lincoln Krohn. I got off the bus and he said, "Are you the youth director?" I said, "No, I'm helping. I'm the new assistant rabbi." He said, "God, you look like a kid. You look so young." I said, "Well, I've been ordained." He said, "Well, you and I are going to work together because we're in charge." And we were. We became very fast friends. We took walks together around Lake Tahoe; we became buddies. Would you know that four years later I went to a rabbinic convention in Atlantic City. I sat down and somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Do you remember what I told you once when we took a walk at Zepper's Cove in Lake Tahoe? That you're the kind of guy I want to be my successor? Well, that time has come." I was shocked. I didn't expect anything. I went there to give a report on the Jewish Music Committee which I was on. He said, "Well, I have you in mind. I know it's a surprise, but I want you to wait here a minute." He left me and went to the phone and he called Harry Rosenzweig and he said, "Harry, I've got a candidate for this congregation. He's just the guy and I love him. I want you to talk to him." I was so shocked - I cannot tell you - as I relive the thing. I said, "Yes?" He said, "Rabbi, I've got a great report from Rabbi Krohn, and furthermore, we know about you through Harold Diamond because Helen Diamond's family in Seattle were good friends of yours - the Spring family - because Myra Spring was president (?) when you were an assistant rabbi in Seattle. So, everything was coming together. I said, "Yes, I'm very fond of the Spring family. They were very good friends of mine." He said, "Well, I want you to go ahead and change your ticket. I don't want you to go back to Spokane without stopping in Phoenix." So, that's exactly what I did. I called up Sylvia and I said, "Honey, this will be a real shock to you, but I'm not coming straight home, I'm going to Phoenix." She said, "What? Now, in June - it's so hot!" I said, "Well, that's where I'm going." She said, "I just put up the drapes." I said, "Well, take 'em down. We're packing up. I think we're going to go to Phoenix." Well, the funny part of it is I did change my ticket. I flew straight from Atlantic City to Phoenix. I had worn a black wool suit because I always wanted to be proper - that's the way I was taught at Notre Dame - we had to do everything according to the book. That means black suit and black tie and black wool. That's how I came here at 109. Of course, I left Spokane at 5 1. In June it's rather cool in Spokane. I came here at 109 - I nearly died. There was Charlie Korrick. He said, "Rabbi, I'm Temple Beth Israel President, and I welcome you to Phoenix." With him was Nat Silverman. That's how it all began. So, I came here at that time and I fell in love with Phoenix. I'd fallen in love with it five years earlier. But, I knew that this was where I had to be. So, it was like beshert - you know, it was destined to be. KURN: What is beshert? PLOTKIN: Beshert means it was meant - it was pre-destined to be. And that's exactly how it all happened. I came here August 1 for the interview. KURN: What year? PLOTKIN: 1955. At the time there were only three congregations here. There was Beth El, Beth Israel and Beth Hebrew, which was a small Orthodox congregation. Rabbi Krohn was the President of that congregation, because he helped organize it and gave it his Torah, and Beth Hebrew was a break-off from Beth El, if I'm not mistaken. Beth El was on Third Avenue and McDowell and we were on 10th Avenue and Flower. When I came here I don't think the Jewish community was bigger than 3 or 4,000 if it was that large - greater Phoenix. There were no congregations in Scottsdale or Mesa - oh yes, there was. There was a congregation in Mesa. I remember dedicating their hall shortly after I got here. They had taken over a church and I was there to dedicate that church and they just celebrated their 50th birthday, so I went back. I told them the funny story that when I got up to speak the lights went out. I jokingly said, "I can't believe I'm so powerful that I just turned off the lights." So, I said, "Lord, let there be light." The lights came on - that was so funny. KURN: Let me just stop a minute. The name of that little synagogue - PLOTKIN: Temple Beth Shalom. At that time it was down on Third Street downtown - Third Street and Broadway. KURN: And who was their rabbi? PLOTKIN: They didn't have a rabbi. They had, as I recall, they had started the congregation and there was no rabbi. Rabbi Krohn was kind of their spiritual advisor and he helped them a great deal. That's where I came in, because he asked me to help them out, and I did. I used to go there and conduct services there also. KURN: What denomination were they? PLOTKIN: They were orthoconsoform - they were everything. KURN: How do you spell that? PLOTKIN: 0-r-t-h-o-c-o-n-s-o-f-o-r-m. I made that word up. It's a Plotkonian derivation. Orthoconsoform. They were a new group - Al Brooks was the one who was really running that congregation and he and - I'm trying to think of the name - there was a young student who was a cantor - his name just doesn't ring, this goes back 45 years ago. So, I know that Al Brooks and Rabbi Krohn were the leaders of the congregation. It was very small, there were only about 40 families in Mesa at the time. They had just purchased a little Baptist church which they converted into a synagogue. They conducted their own services on Friday night and that was the congregation at that time. I'm happy to say that they had a lot of rabbis - I don't want to go through all of their names - but I said to Al Brooks, who was very concerned about his future - I said, "Why don't you get a woman rabbi?" KURN: What year did you say that? PLOTKIN: I said that at 15 years old, because I was the first rabbi in my seminary to espouse the admission of women into the rabbinate. I got really turned down by the president, who was very annoyed, because there was one student who was the daughter of our professor, who passed away, who was auditing our class and she was extremely bright. So, I said to her, "Why don't you apply to the rabbinate department?" She said to me, "Why don't you ask the president?" So I did. He had a very stern face. He said, "If she wants to be a rabbi let her marry one." It was awful. I was shocked. I didn't say anything further. And that was it. So, I was able to continue my espousal of women in the rabbinate and, finally, when Dr. Morgenstern - I knew during his administration it couldn't be. But when Dr. Nelson Glueck took over - Glueck is the one who really opened the doors. And in 1977 we ordained the first woman rabbi. I told Al Brooks, "There are wonderful women rabbi graduates from Hebrew Union College and the Reconstructionist - both - and the seminary, I think, eventually will ordain. They always are about ten years behind, but they will follow through. That's how Bonnie Kopell came here. I recommended her sight unseen and she has done a fabulous job. She has tripled the size of the congregation and now they've found new, larger quarters. She's terrific. She's wonderful and I'm so glad that I was her sponsor. Everybody laughs because I met her after she'd been there. She said, "I'd like to meet the man who recommended me." She didn't even know me. I just felt that it was wrong to exclude women from the rabbinate. And, not only the rabbinate, but every branch of Jewish service - cantonal. Now, our cantonal school is 60% women and our rabbinate school is 50% women. We have a large number of women rabbis. We have over 300 of them now. KURN: What year was that when you were told if a woman wants to be rabbi... PLOTKIN: 1942. It was considered so radical that I should recommend - who was I anyway? Of course, I was suspect to begin with because I didn't come from Yeshiva- I came from Notre Dame. I was considered a goy, a shagetz. Who was this goy from Notre Dame who is going to be a Vatican spy? The pope has sent him out here. That was the talk of the school. That was the beginning. I have had the great success of recommending women to the rabbinate. I have three of my best kids - women who became women rabbis. First is Judy Shanks who is the rabbi at Temple Israel in Lafayette, California. Then there is Judy Rosenthal who is a rabbi in Denver, Colorado. Then there is Lydia Wechsler who is a rabbi in Yonkers, New York. So, my fame are women rabbis. Two young men that I recommended for the rabbinate washed out. They started but they couldn't finish. Their names I don't want to reveal. But, I'm proud of these three wonderful women that I felt they could render a great service in the rabbinate. Judy Shanks has done exceptionally well. She's a leader of the women rabbis. She's vice president of the women's circle of rabbis. So are Judy Rosenthal and Wendy Drucker. They're all doing great. I'm very proud of them. KURN: Tell us about Temple Beth Israel when you first came here. PLOTKIN: Temple Beth Israel was still on a classic reform basis. Rabbi Krohn - blessed memory - was a disciple of Stephen S. Weiss. He was an early graduate of 1926 of the Jewish Institute of Religion in New York, which was a break-off of a seminary in New York City which was sponsored by Stephen Weiss because the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati was very anti-Zionist. I came there in 1942 and I heard the president compare the Zionists to the Bundists. I nearly fell out of the choir loft where I was singing in the choir. I couldn't believe it because I had come from a very ardent Zionist family. My parents were labor Zionists and Golda Meir lived amongst our family - came to South Bend and was a close friend of my aunt. They corresponded in Yiddish on penny post cards for years. They were her best friends when she moved to Milwaukee because they came from the same town in Pinsk. So, there was a tremendous, strong Zionist feeling and I come to Hebrew Union College and it's bastion of anti-Zionist - it was strictly Pittsburgh platform 1885. I mean, you know, Washington is our capitol and America is terribly fearful of a dual allegiance. I was ready to leave. I'll never forget - I called my mother. My mother was so smart. She said, "Look, you're going to the rabbinate. Do you think everybody's going to be as "fabrent" as Zionist like you are? You're going to have to deal with that as Zionist, because not everybody agrees about a Jewish state. Don't be a quitter. You start finish!" That was it. My mother was smart. I'll never forget, because they came down to see me while I was at school. They wanted to see where I'm living - you know, Jewish mother - how good I'm eating. They went to services and, I'll never forget my mother's comment - my father was always so very quiet and never said much. My mother always did all the talking. So, I said, "Ma, what do you think?" She said to me, "I have one word - 'coltaluction' - cold noodles the service is terribly cold." And it was. When I came here that's how I felt the service was. Very cold. Very little Hebrew. So, I felt it was time for a change. But I felt I should change slowly. There was no Saturday morning service. I felt that, as a reform congregation, we should have a Shabbat morning service. Even if I don't have a minyan I'm going to have a Shabbat morning. So, I moved the congregation in a more traditional vein. I put in not only more Hebrew, I put in a Torah service. I put in a half Torah service on Friday. People never saw the Torah. So, I instituted the Saturday morning service and started the change bar mitzvahs from Friday night to Saturday morning. When I came here all bar mitzvahs were Friday night. There was no Saturday morning service. KURN: How big was your congregation? PLOTKIN: About 400 families. It was small. I mean, for me, leaving Spokane at 140 families - 400 was great! And there were about 400 children in the religious school. We had two sessions - we had a Saturday session of school and we had a Sunday session. We had two sessions. KURN: How old were you then? PLOTKIN: I was 34. KURN: And the address of Temple Beth Israel. PLOTKIN: 10th Avenue and Flower. KURN: Now, were you the assistant rabbi? PLOTKIN: No. I was the senior rabbi. KURN: So, there was only just you as the rabbi? PLOTKIN: It was just me. KURN: He had retired? PLOTKIN: Rabbi Krohn had retired, right. Rabbi Krohn retired about 1953. His successor was Rabbi Mort Fierman and Fierman was Rabbi Krohn's assistant and then was his successor for a year. Then there was quite an upheaval in the congregation and Rabbi Fierman became professor of education at Orange State University in Orange, California. KURN: How does he spell his name? PLOTKIN: F-i-e-r-m-a-n. His brother, Floyd, was rabbi in El Paso, Texas - Temple Sinai. Recently they both passed away. Rabbi Fierman passed away two years ago and Rabbi Fierman passed away six years ago. KURN: So, you followed Rabbi Fierman. PLOTKIN: I followed Fierman, right. Rabbi Krohn always made it sound as if I followed him, because even though Rabbi Emeritus, he was still holding forth when I came. KURN: What did the temple look like? PLOTKIN: It was beautiful. It was a corner temple with beautiful palm trees. Coming here from Spokane where the winters were very severe - near the border of Idaho and Montana where the winters are extremely difficult. It was beautiful. I loved the dome, I loved the outlay. It was a courtyard kind of temple where everything was outside. The courtyard was beautiful. I remember when I came here I had sukkos under the stars. That had been started not by me, but Rabbi Krohn had done it. I saw people coming, bringing their supper and everybody joining with the sukkah outdoors. I thought it was paradise - never seen anything like it. It was gorgeous. When I came and saw the quadrangle I figured that someday I would put up a building on one side and then I'd put up a building on the other side, but I won't finish the quadrangle. And we did. I built the school building in 1958 and I built the cultural wing in 1966. KURN: Who were some of your leadership people when you first came? PLOTKIN: The leaders were, at the time, Harry and Newton Rosenzweig. Both of them had been serving. Newton had been president before Harry. There was David Bush. There was Harold Diamond. There was Kroloff - KURN: Archie. PLOTKIN: Archie Kroloff. There was Helen Wolf who was serving on the board as Sisterhood president. There was Helen Kaplan who was then very, very active the wife of Hirsh Kaplan. Helen was very, very active. It was also naming the other presidents that I worked under - the first woman president was Fran Frazin, who was my last president. It was the first woman president of Beth Israel. I worked also with Burt Lewin who was at the time on the board of the Temple and president of the Brotherhood. Mal Strauss was another past president with whom I worked very, very closely with. There was Kenneth Diamond who was vice president of the temple and never became president, but who carried on the Diamond regime. The most dynamic was Irv Pearlstein, with whom I created the Pearlstein camp. Because without Irv I never would have had a camp and I was determined to have a camp. That's how I got the camp. I had a good president who wanted to do something in memory of his father. So I said to him, "Irv, we've got to work fast because there is an opportunity to buy an AFL-CIO camp which is up for sale. It's a beautiful piece of property and it's owned by the U.S. Forest Service but we can lease it for $5 a year. We could build a camp for our Jewish kids because they have no place to go. They have to go all the way up to Northern California or out to Wilshire Boulevard temple camp, but we need one right here. So, let's do it." We were able to maneuver it. It took off very well. We had an annual meeting. Irv announced it and four or five people got up and immediately said, "I'm going to sponsor a cabin." There was Morris Lerner, who was also past president of the temple. There was Nat Silverman, who was sponsoring a cabin. I'm trying to think of the cattleman. KURN: Grouskay. PLOTKIN: Aubrey Grouskay, who was also past president. He sponsored a cabin. And Mal Straus. And we had a camp. It started very slow. I had a difficult time getting people to come. Parents didn't know where they were sending their kids. Who is this camp and what kind of facilities do you have? We had to practically bribe them. We had to give them scholarships in order to get them to come. KURN: What year was that? PLOTKIN: 25 years ago. No, excuse me, about 20 years ago. I think it would be 1972 or 1973. That's when the camp program got started. So, that's the story of the camp. I was very concerned that it would prosper and it has. It's done exceptionally well. It's been an important part. KURN: Tell me the hardest part of being the new rabbi at Temple Beth Israel for you. PLOTKIN: I think the hardest part was the fact that I was so young. Who is this boy? Who is this kid? I was too young, too effusive, too enthusiastic. I wanted to do too much. I wanted to move fast. I was a liberal Democrat and I was surrounded by very conservative Republicans of the Barry Goldwater ilk. I think I was the only congregation in the whole Union of America Hebrew Congregations that had a Republican board that was a pro-Goldwater constituent. So, it was tough. I found Arizona extremely conservative. The relationship to civil rights - I thought we were way, way back. Washington was far more liberal, far more progressive in civil rights. When I came here the schools hadn't been desegregated. They were just beginning to desegregate and close South Mountain High School. I found this very difficult. KURN: What was South Mountain High School? PLOTKIN: It was named after a famous Washington - I forgot his name - a famous biologist who was a leader of the black community. (Booker T?) KURN: Who were the students? PLOTKIN: The students were all black. It was a black high school. All of South Phoenix - this was part of South Phoenix - was a black ghetto when I came here. I remember that downtown blacks had to sit up in the balcony in 1955. It was only after the desegregation of the schools. I found that very difficult. I wanted to talk out against it and then I found that the paper - the Arizona Republic - was horribly reactionary and Puliam was an anti-Semite. I really felt he was. We had restricted country clubs here and restricted dude ranches. The Camelback Inn was notorious for its segregation. These are things I bumped up against in 1955 and it was not easy. I didn't live in a community of segregation in Washington - either in Seattle or Spokane. There were never any problems in that regard as I see it. The schools were desegregated in Washington. KURN: Washington? PLOTKIN: Seattle and Spokane, Washington - the schools were never segregated. I found the Christian ministers here very conservative - not very interested in any inter-faith work at all. I found that the Arizona Ministerial Association was strictly Christian - something I didn't have in Spokane. KURN: How did they treat you? PLOTKIN: Cold. Pleasant, proper, but cold. Not warm at all. It changed primarily, I think, because there were three other clergymen here with whom I became very close: Culver Nelson at the Church of the Beatitudes; Bill Smith at Shadow Rock Church; and Monsignor Robert Donehoe at St. Francis; and Fred Barnhill - we formed a kind of contingent of liberal clergymen that worked very closely together and formed a wonderful association, because we all came here about the same time. Culver Nelson said that he got a rough start because he started Bud Brown's Barn and he said, "You already had a building. I didn't even have that. All I had was a barn and that's where I held the first services - in Bud Brown's Barn." So, later, of course, this group formed the North Phoenix Corporate Ministry and we had a marvelous ecumenical program. Sister Christine Athans was our leader - fearless leader - and she was way ahead of her time. First, as a woman leader in Catholic thinking, and second, outspoken in her condemnation of anti-Semitism - wrote her doctoral dissertation of Father Coughlin's anti-Semitism, which the Catholic Church refused to publish. She really had a rough time - her priest gave her a rough time. She was a fearless lady. Way ahead of her time - way ahead. KURN: What year was this? PLOTKIN: We are talking around 1970 - well, I would say before '70 - 1965. That's when we organized the North Phoenix Corporate Ministry. It's now become part of the Phoenix Interfaith Cooperative Ministry. At that time we were only 7 congregations - we are now 20. Last year I received an award called the Mantis Award which is the Greek word for honorary light. So, I have worked very hard in that field and I have always enjoyed it. It's been an important part of my rabbinate. KURN: Tell me more about Temple when you first came here and how you felt and how they felt towards you. PLOTKIN: Well, I think they accepted me eventually - more warmly than I had thought I would be. It was not easy because I think that I was somewhat a little radical for them - for some, not for all - because I was outspoken on civil rights, human rights. I welcomed Martin Luther King here - I was on the platform when he spoke and that didn't go over too well. During the 60's I had a rough time. I wouldn't say that my job was in jeopardy, but I would say that I was highly criticized by a lot of people for my activity in the civil rights community. I think gradually the changes that I made began to take hold and people became, I think, more accepting of my more traditional leanings. I had the cantor doing more Hebrew and more chanting and I had more observances - traditional observances on the holiday - not on the closest Friday, but on the holiday. Then, the Holy Days I had much more tradition in the congregation. I introduced not only Sukkos Under The Stars, but Sumchas Torah Under The Stars. I probably got out and danced with the torah you know. I just felt that that was my way. People who were classical reform were very unhappy, I think. But they were a small group of the early founders and they thought I was leading them down the road to orthodoxy. They let me know that they were uncomfortable with so much Hebrew. They were here with Krohn and the classical reform days with much shorter service - mine was much longer. I introduced aliyahs and I called up women to do aliyas. That was a shock. And I pushed for bat mitzvahs. There were none of them when I came here. So, I started off with Lois Chesler, Cantor Chesler's daughter, and I said, "If she starts the pack, others will follow." And that's exactly what happened. KURN: She was the first? PLOTKIN: She was one of the first in the new temple. KURN: Who was your cantor in the old temple? PLOTKIN: Maurice Chesler. We were together 40 years. I loved him very much. He and I had a lot in common because we knew Yiddish. We knew Yiddish literature and Yiddish folk music. We had a wonderful relationship. 40 years - a long time. KURN: Did you have a director of the education department? PLOTKIN: Yes, I had Phil Chapman. KURN: And before him? PLOTKIN: Before him there was none - I was the director. When I came here I was everything. KURN: Really? PLOTKIN: Yes, there was no director of education. Phil Chapman was the first director of education. KURN: That was when, what year? PLOTKIN: 1958. 1 came here in '55, and shortly after, Krohn died. I went to the board and told them that it was just too much. I had to make a break, so to speak, and I had to do it quick. That's when I brought Phil Chapman here in 1958. KURN: What kind of work did most of your congregants do for a living? PLOTKIN: They were primarily in ready-to-wear, they were in the jewelry business, and a good number of them were in the western wear business. There were a number of people in the professions - lawyers, doctors, dentists. I had sort of across the board a rather broad perspective. KURN: How did you handle people who needed something - money, help, clothing? PLOTKIN: Well, we had the Jewish Family Service. I was on the board and I worked very closely with Florence Frank - who, by the way, was related to me because her cousin married my cousin, which made us kissing cousins. I worked very closely with her at the time, and Hirsh Kaplan. Whenever there was a need I always called Hirsh and we worked very closely in that regard. That's the way the set up was. KURN: Did most of your congregants live nearby? PLOTKIN: Yes. At the time Osborn was not quite the end of the road, but pretty close to it. Most of our people lived in and around the temple - I'd say 70%. KURN: So between what main - PLOTKIN: I would say between McDowell and Osborn, east and west, I'd say from Central to 19th Avenue; from Central to 24th Street. That was the geographic location of the congregation at that time. I'll never forget when I came here in 1950 just as a visitor I met a friend and I said, "It's beautiful that you built the temple on Osborn." He said, "Yes. Can you believe it? We're out in the boonies. We had wonderful property on 2d Street and Culver. We could have expanded. Why did we have to go way up here? It's wrong." That was 1950. KURN: What did the temple do for you as a young rabbi? PLOTKIN: Well, they got a home for me. KURN: They bought you a home? PLOTKIN: They bought me a home, which I later bought from the congregation. KURN: Why? PLOTKIN: Well, I think they wanted to give it to me, but I wanted to avoid paying gift tax. So, they gave me so much each year for ten years and then I gave back to them. So, it was kind of an accounting figure, so that by the end of ten years I would own the property. Give and take - the money I was extended and the money that I paid back - it was an accounting bill. That's exactly what it was. KURN: What else did they do for you? What else was in your package? PLOTKIN: My pension, my health benefits, my benefits for my children and burial plots for my family. KURN: What kind of benefits for the children? PLOTKIN: Well, I didn't pay any tuition fees for the children in preschool, grade school and high school. KURN: May I ask what they were paying rabbis in 1955? PLOTKIN: My salary was $8,500. That was a big step because I came from Spokane at $5,000 - no $6,000. KURN: So, did you feel that it was a good salary in 1955? PLOTKIN: Well, I was able to survive on it. Also, part of the package was my home and utilities. All I paid for was phone. So, I could survive. I didn't have a lot of money, but I had enough money to make it. I was not very demanding. The congregation was small. Although the mortgage had been paid when I got here. KURN: Of the temple? PLOTKIN: Of the temple, yes. The mortgage had been paid, so I felt that things had survived pretty well. KURN: How long had they been in the site, that location? PLOTKIN: 1949 they entered. They were at 2nd Street and Culver from 1922 to 1949. In '49 they moved to 10th Avenue and Osborn and then, two years ago, in 1997, they moved to 56h St. and Shea. KURN: What kind of anti-Semitism did you encounter in '55 other than what you've talked about? PLOTKIN: I don't think I had any great anti-Semitism, except for Jack Stewart, who ran the Camelback Inn, I felt was a real anti-Semite. But, he covered it up pretty cleverly by being a great supporter of the National Conference of Christians and Jews. He always bought a table at the Big Brotherhood gala fund-raising - their annual dinner. I felt that the editor and publisher of the Republic was terrible. He was so anti-Israel and he was pro-Arab and I felt that paper was very unfair. That was the main - I didn't find the clergy anti-Semitic. I found the clergy to be very friendly - much friendlier than I had in Spokane - although very conservative. I enjoyed my association with the clergy and I was very active. I always felt that a rabbi has to represent his community to the gentiles and I inherited it from Krohn. Krohn was a goodwill ambassador. I felt I had to fill his shoes when he left. I felt that that was very important. He told me it was and he was right. So, everything he was on, I was on: Girls Scouts and Boy Scouts and Red Cross and PTA and symphony and opera and Urban League and NAACP. I could go on and on. My background in those fields - and, of course, the formation of Any town, of which I was a founder - they are receiving an award this Friday night from temple - the Humanitarian Award. I worked closely at the time with Jewish Family Service - I was on the board for 25 years - and Federation, of course. I was UJA Chairman with Dorothy Pickelner in 1970 and '71. That's about it. So, it covers a whole sphere, I felt - and, then, of course, Israel bonds, and JNF. I helped organize JNF here. KURN: JNF stands for? PLOTKIN: Jewish National Fund. Also, AIPAC - I and Bud Goldman organized AIPAC here, as a chapter when it first got started. It was very important, I felt, to support Israel through Congress and through an agency that would do the lobbying work, which AIPAC does. So, every organization in this town I have been part of I have felt that whatever I could do to promote that kind of advancement of the community was my moral obligation. Not only to serve the congregation, but to serve the entire community, both Jewish and non-Jewish. KURN: And you were accepted and respected? PLOTKIN: Yes, I hope. I mean, I was very close to Governor Williams. He had me on marriage and divorce committee, I was on the youth committee with Rose Mofford, I worked very closely with the last governor. I felt badly about his being indicted, because I worked very closely with him in the National Conference of Christians and Jews and he was very helpful to me in promoting a lot of the programs that I felt the governor should. KURN: And his name? Is it Mecham? PLOTKIN: No. It was Rose Mofford's successor ... terrible... KURN: I'm drawing a blank also. It'll come to us. PLOTKIN: It'll come to us, yes. KURN: So, tell me how the temple evolved that you eventually - what led up to getting another rabbi in addition to yourself? PLOTKIN: Well, in 1966 the congregation had grown very large - KURN: Do you have a time limit? PLOTKIN: I have a time limit, yes, which is 2:20, but I can come back. KURN: Fair enough. PLOTKIN: I had a problem in terms of trying to make the congregation understand that I just couldn't handle it all myself. So, there was a feeling that I could do it, but I couldn't. It had grown to 800 or 900 families. It was too much, so I was able to have Rabbi Robert Scott, who came in 1966. He was with me for two years to 1968. Then I had B. Charles Herring for 20 years. Then I had Jeffrey Ableser for three years until I retired in 1991. That's when I took over the congregation in Sedona and I'm still there. That was 1992. KURN: What kinds of things did Rabbi Herring bring to the temple? PLOTKIN: He was very good in youth work. He had one of the best youth groups in the country. He was terrific in the camp and he was wonderful with the young people. He was regional director of SWFTY. He was national director of NFTY. He was very, very active in the Jewish camping program and in the work that he did with the young marrieds and the religious school. He was wonderful with the children. He was great. So, he did all of the work dealing with the school, with the youth group, with camp and with the young people. And I did the senior programs. He was unhappy because we did not move, so he moved and started his own congregation and I really have felt badly about it. I wanted him to stay, but it was a great turmoil at the time. So, he left - this is a free country and all everybody makes his own destiny. Eventually, I found that the work that I had done was going downhill. I saw in 1987 when Rabbi Herring left to form Kolami, I knew we had to move. I knew that and I said so at an annual meeting. KURN: Why did you think so? PLOTKIN: Because we were losing members. Our membership was dropping. I was up to 1,600, then it was down to 1,400, then it was down to 1,200. When it started to go down to 1,000- and we were losing children - every year our school was going down. I said to myself, "I love this temple with all my heart - I've put 40 years in, but I don't want to bury it." I felt like I was on a Titanic. Everybody had left. The cantor, Steve Richards, was gone. The director of education was gone - Jerry Kane left. So did Mike Rosenthal who ran the camp. I had no one. I was holding the ship and I knew that we had to move. We had to go in the northeast area. Then, I also realized that the time had come for my retirement. I had worked from '55 to almost '90, '91 and the time had come to turn it over to another rabbi so that we could make the move and we could get a rabbi who is a good fund-raiser and who could move us to a new location, even though my heart was breaking leaving the old. That was very tough on me - still is. I can't even go by it without feeling a thump in my heart. I don't even look at it, to be honest with you, it's too painful. I would have liked to have seen us there, but it couldn't be. No one was living in the area - we were all alone, so to speak. So, it was inevitable that we had to leave. That was the closing chapter - not the closing for me. It was the beginning of a new experience up in Northern Arizona. I had, in the meantime, helped Prescott and Flagstaff. 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