..inte: Rebecca Leibsohn ..intr: Bobbi Kurn ..da: 1986 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Rebecca Leibsohn January 30, 1986 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Bobbi Kurn Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Rebecca Leibsohn Interview Pages 1 Introduction 1 Been here about 63 years Parents: Noah and Fanny Effron Husband: Mayer Leibsohn Children: Mark Leibsohn Eugene Leibsohn 2 Parents from Russia to Iowa Brother: Frank Effron Sister: Stella Effron Frank's son: Ralph Effron 3 Father's role in Iowa Brother: Harry Effron 4 Came to Phoenix during depression 4 Came to Phoenix 70 years ago -1916, just to visit; what Phoenix looked like Korricks Goldwaters 5 State fair here Doris Heyman Co. Herman & Carrie Lewkowitz Landis Abe & Blanche Korrick 7 Brother & sister-in-law Harry & Jenny Effron 7 First little temple Rabbi Jaffa Rabbi Krohn Rabbi Plotkin 8 Gave money for temple Udall 9 1929 Depression 9 Came to Phoenix 11 1916 - no organized Jewish activities 11 Goldwater's father married a nurse - famous cook Harry Rosenzweig Mrs. Rose Rosenzweig 13 Moved to Phoenix with husband 53 years ago Mark - 11 years in 1933 Gene - 7 years 14 Brother owned land where airport is 15 Lived with brother when she moved out Fanny & Frank Sitkin - dentist 15 Services on Friday night 2nd Street Herman Chanen Hattie Lewkowitz (Herman's sister) 18 Husband worked at store Effron's older brother Frank; son Ralph Effron 19 Students in class Lois Chanen Nona Lewkowitz Ralph Segal 19 Old family Gold family Dr. Stern 20-21 High schools North High Kenilworth 22 Kindergarten teacher Miss Kniss Burt Lewkowitz Sitkin boy Leonard Karp 25 Life in temple 25 Council of Jewish Women Abe Korrick Charlie Korrick Son of Mark Leibsohn Eric Leibsohn Steven Leibsohn Linda Leibsohn Deaktor (Ann & Larry) Vice President Marshall 31 Neighborhood Judge Stevens Andrea Leibsohn Bobby Irving Rebecca Leibsohn Interview This Is Bobbi Kurn. I'm a volunteer for the Jewish Historical Society. This is January 30, 1986 and I'm going to interview Rebecca Leibsohn. KURN: How do you spell Leibsohn? LEIBSOHN: L-e-i-b-s-o-h-n. KURN: L-e-i-b-s-o-h-n. Okay. And your address is -- LEIBSOHN: 3020 N. 36th St. KURN: N. 36th St. Okay. And you're a housewife. LEIBSOHN: Yes. KURN: Okay. And what is your date of birth? LEIBSOHN: November the 1st, 1896. KURN: 1896. And you're a female. And where were you born? LEIBSOHN: Cedar Rapids, Iowa. KURN: Okay. And when did you arrive in Arizona? LEIBSOHN: Let's see. I've been here about 63 years. KURN: Okay. When you came to Arizona, did you come directly to Phoenix? LEIBSOHN: Uh-huh. KURN: And what Is the name of your parents? LEIBSOHN: Effron. Their name is Effron, E-f-f-r-o-n. Noah Effron was my father. My mother's name was Fanny. KURN: The name of your husband? LEIBSOHN: Mayer Leibsohn. M-a-y-e-r. KURN: And the names of your children? LEIBSOHN: Mark Leibsohn and Eugene Leibsohn. Dr. Eugene Leibsohn - you know him. KURN: I do. My husband's going to go see him today. Let's see. Your education; you went to school in -- LEIBSOHN: In Cedar Rapids. KURN: Elementary school? LEIBSOHN: And high school. I graduated in 1914. KURN: Did you have any college courses? LEIBSOHN: No, I didn't have any college, but I did attend all the departments of the Woman's Club there. And I took some special education from some professors, but I didn't go to college. KURN: Okay. And have you worked? LEIBSOHN: No. Never. KURN: Let's start at the beginning here. Where were your parents born? LEIBSOHN: I don't know what part of Russia, but they were from some part of Russia. I was born in Cedar Rapids. They came with my brother, Frank Effron. Do you know Ralph Effron? KURN: Maybe not. LEIBSOHN: Well, anyhow, my sister, Stelle, and I were born in Cedar Rapids, and my father came direct to Cedar Rapids from Europe. KURN: Did your parents meet in Europe? LEIBSOHN: Oh, no. They were married In Europe. I mean, they both came from Russia. I can't remember what part. KURN: My family's from Russia too. LEIBSOHN: All I know is that they were Litvaks. KURN: Litvaks, right. That's important. And then they came to Iowa. LEIBSOHN: Cedar Rapids, Iowa. My father came first with, I think, one son, and then my mother came later with my other brother and a sister. They came later, but they came direct from Europe to Cedar Rapids, Iowa. My father was a Hebrew teacher in Europe and at that time I think they were advertising in Cedar Rapids, Iowa -- you know, that was years and years ago -- they didn't have a rabbi nor a shochet or anything, so my father became like the rabbi and the shochet and circumcised children, whatever you call that. He did everything - he was the only one for a long time. KURN: Who is older, you or your brother? LEIBSOHN: Well, I was the youngest of the family. KURN: The youngest of three children? LEIBSOHN: No. There were two brothers and two sisters; I was the youngest of five. That's why we originally came out here during the Depression. We were in the furniture business back in Cedar Rapids, Iowa during the Depression. Then I had this arthritis real bad and my brother, Harry, had come out here as a young man years and years ago, my brother, Harry Effron, and that's how we originally came out here. And then my husband went into business with him; they were in the wool and hide business and that's what my husband did with my brother Harry. KURN: Did you come out here first just to look the place over? LEIBSOHN: No. We came right out. I came out once as a young girl, after I went through high school. But we didn't look it over; we just came during the Depression. You know, things were pretty bad. KURN: You came to visit your brother? LEIBSOHN: Yeah. He wanted us to come out here, because he wasn't too well, so my husband started to work In his business. KURN: You came out to Phoenix by yourself when you graduated high school for vacation? LEIBSOHN: Yeah. My mother and I came out to see my brother. KURN: For vacation? LEIBSOHN: Uh-huh. KURN: About what year would that have been? LEIBSOHN: Oh. I'm 90 years old, so maybe that was 70 years ago, so you figure that out. KURN: Okay. I'd have to subtract -- LEIBSOHN: 70 from 96 Is -- what is that? KURN: Probably around 1916. Does that sound right? LEIBSOHN: Maybe. Uh-huh. KURN: Do you remember what Phoenix looked like when you came out? LEIBSOHN: Well, it was mostly orchards; orange and grapefruit orchards out south. There were no homes at all. It was Sunnyslope - people came years ago for TB. They lived in tents; they thought that that would help them. I don't know if it did or not, but a lot of people that had TB came out here to live on the desert. of course, it's grown up now quite a bit. of course, there was nothing In Scottsdale; that was void of everything. There weren't too many people living out in Arizona. They had the Korrick's Department Store and Goldwater's Department Store on Washington. Let's see, was Goldwater's on Washington? I know Korrick's was. And the Goldwater's store was there. And the Dorris Heyman Furniture Store - that was one of the best furniture stores here. I guess they still used to have the fair out here. When I came out here years ago they used to have a fair out -- KURN: When you were a young girl and came out with your mother they had the State Fair here? LEIBSOHN: Yeah. They used to have a fair. Herman and Carrie Lewkowitz were our best friends then. They were here before we were. KURN: Herman and Carrie? LEIBSOHN: Uh-huh. I knew them well. I think the Landys -- I don't know if the son is still living here. They used to have a grocery store years ago. Did you ever hear of them Landys? KURN: No. LEIBSOHN: I think they were here. I don't know how many other people. KURN: They were Jewish, the Landys? LEIBSOHN: Oh, yes. Let's see, who else? The Korricks were here, you know, Abe Korrick and Blanche, and of course she's still living; Blanche. Abe Korrick; his wife is still living. I can't remember too many Jewish people. KURN: What did you and your mom do when you came out and visited? LEIBSOHN: Oh, we just came to visit my brother out here. There were some Gentile people who my brother knew who took us out to see the ostrich farm. First time I'd ever seen ostriches. I remember at that time ostrich feathers were still good, you know. People still wore them in their hats and so on. KURN: What kind of house did your brother have? Where was he living? LEIBSOHN: He was just -- I can't remember -- It was just a small little place; he lived there by himself. Later on he was married. His wife passed away. And he passed away maybe about 50 years ago. KURN: What was your sister-in-law's name? LEIBSOHN: Her name was Jenny Effron. My brother's name was Harry. Harry and Jenny. She was quite active in the temple and all. KURN: There was a temple -- LEIBSOHN: Well, the temple when I first came here, let's see, we've belonged to the temple ever since I've been here which is all these years. And that temple wasn't much of a temple. The place we worshiped there before this other one was built was on -- I can't remember -- I'm trying to think of the street -- Culver. That was the first temple I think we ever had here. KURN: On Culver? LEIBSOHN: On Culver. On the east side and it was on Culver, a little temple that we went to. KURN: What did It look like? LEIBSOHN: Oh, It was just a small little place to worship. The only rabbi I remember was Rabbi Jaffa. You know, he was there for awhile but he got ill, so he wasn't there too long. Then after that they built this other temple and -- who was the rabbi that was there that -- KURN: Was It Rabbi Krohn? LEIBSOHN: Yes. He was the first rabbi there. And he was ill and wasn't there too long. After that there was another rabbi who they had for a short time. I can't remember his name. And then of course Rabbi Plotkin came afterwards. He's been here a long time. KURN: The temple on Culver; was it a house or did it -- LEIBSOHN: No. It was like a little building, you know. It wasn't a house, they had a regular little temple. Both my sons were bar mitzvahed there. KURN: Did your brother attend services there when you came to visit him in 1916? LEIBSOHN: Well, my brother was a member of the temple and his name is in the big stone they have, because he gave quite a lot of money when they built the new temple. You know, his name is there; Harry and Jenny Effron. I had a very wonderful father and mother. Their whole life was for other people and they didn't have a lot of means, but wherever they could help someone they helped. At one time I remember we had ten people living -- I was just a young child, maybe five or six, and my mother had ten people In the house. You know, they used to travel, ten Jewish people at one time from one city to another. Then people would go out, make so much money. My Dad used to go out, you know, to a few people that had a little money and then they would go on to the next city. one night I remember we had a blind girl and the father -- I can't remember, but we didn't have a big house, and they must have slept on the floor. I don't know. But anyhow, I had a very, very wonderful father and mother, and their whole life was for other people. I was very proud of my name, Effron, because I thought they were very unusual, wonderful people. KURN: How did your mother and you come out to visit your brother? By train? LEIBSOHN: Oh, yes, train. Sure. We stopped off in Kansas City. KURN: Golden State? LEIBSOHN: Yeah. It was a long trip. Then later I came out with the two children when I first came out. My husband came out about a month later. That was during the '29 Depression. We lost practically everything we had. We had a big building in Cedar Rapids and -- so I went through a lot of heartache. You know, I had a beautiful home there and we lost about everything. You know, the banks went -- Then we built a home later at 505 West Coronado and we lived there until about 13 years ago. We sold It and then we moved up on 40th Street and Camelback, because that was near where Gene lived. We never had lived in an apartment before. Then we moved back to Phoenix Apartments. Do you know where that is on 3601 -- KURN: Uh-huh. LEIBSOHN: We lived there until my husband passed away about eight years ago. Then I moved in here as soon as It was built, because I wasn't able to feel like I could live alone, although both the boys were very wonderful to me In every way. I couldn't ask for two more wonderful sons. But I thought that I needed a place here where I could get a meal if I didn't have to worry about food, because I didn't want to have to cook. Food wasn't very important to me. It was when my husband was living - It was very Important to me. I always had everything just so, you know. All my life I wanted everything just to be perfect, which sometimes Isn't too good for a person. You know, we're better if we just take things more average and don't try to catch a star. You're much better off if you don't try. I'll have to show you a picture of when I was young. After high school for a year or two, it was during the world war, and I went in with one of my girlfriends -- we went to Michael Reese Hospital In Chicago. That was during that period, you know, that people were dying by the hundreds and they didn't know what to do for it. They called It the Black Plague. It was like a flu and everyone died. If a person was pregnant they died immediately and they didn't know what to do for anyone. I got pneumonia and I came home and never went back. I was very ill. But I always regretted not having gone on, you know, and had a career. I was real studious In school and it was sad that I didn't go on. I have to show you this picture. My folks really did want me to go on. There weren't very many Jewish girls that were nurses then. Now there's so many of them. KURN: That's true. Was Phoenix very Jewish when you came out to visit your brother? Was there much organized religion? LEIBSOHN: Well, they had the temple and all. They had a shochet here. KURN: This was in 1916? LEIBSOHN: No. That was after, when I came out here to live. KURN: How about in 1916? LEIBSOHN: No. At that time I don't think anything was very religious then. But later on they had kosher meat here. But I think before that time people didn't keep kosher. There was not too many Jewish people, like Goldwater's father. You know, he married a nurse. KURN: This was in 1916? LEIBSOHN: No, that was -- well, I don't remember what date that was. I'll tell you what family was out here was Harry Rosenzweig's family. KURN: In 1916? LEIBSOHN: Yeah. They were out here years ago. I knew the mother well. KURN: What was her name? LEIBSOHN: I can't remember. KURN: Was it Rose? LEIBSOHN: Yes. That's right. Rose. She was quite a famous cook. I knew her quite well. KURN: Did you date any Jewish boys when you came out with your mother in 1916? LEIBSOHN: No. I didn't stay very long. KURN: About how long? LEIBSOHN: Oh, maybe about a month. There weren't any Jewish young people there at that time. KURN: Oh, really. LEIBSOHN: No. There wasn't anyone. There were no Jewish young people at that time. KURN: So, how did one go about meeting Jewish people, I wonder, in 1916? LEIBSOHN: Well, I don't think there were very many -- there was mostly intermarriages. I don't think there were very many that were married to -- of the Jewish faith. KURN: It would be Interesting to know how many Jews were actually here in 1916. LEIBSOHN: Oh, I wouldn't know. Not too many. But I wouldn't know. KURN: Did your brother date Jewish girls when he was out here? LEIBSOHN: No. He had asthma and he didn't go out; he didn't do much. He had the hide and wool business, and he used to tend to that. Then he met this girl, Jenny. She was originally from Los Angeles. KURN: Now, was she Jewish? LEIBSOHN: Oh, yes. KURN: So there were some Jewish families here. LEIBSOHN: Yes. KURN: So then you and your mom went back to Iowa. LEIBSOHN: Oh, yes. We Just stayed for about a month. KURN: You met your husband and -- LEIBSOHN: Yeah. I knew my husband, Stanley, for years. You know, they lived in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, so I knew them for a long, long time. He was in the first world war, my husband was. After he came home then we were married. I believe it was '20, 1920. I remember he Joined the Masons right away, went all the way through and became a Shriner. He was a Shriner. KURN: Then you had your boys. LEIBSOHN: Yes. Two sons; Mark and Eugene. KURN: Then what gave you the idea to come to Phoenix? LEIBSOHN: Well, because my brother Harry had a business and it was during the Depression and we had lost most everything, you know. That was about 19 -- KURN: That's what I was wondering. LEIBSOHN: Yeah. And he wanted us to come out here. He wanted my husband to come out. And I had this arthritis so he thought It would be a good place for us to be. KURN: That was how many years ago? LEIBSOHN: Well, let's see. 53 years, I believe I said. KURN: Was it 53 or 63? LEIBSOHN: No. it wasn't 63. It was 53. KURN: 53 years ago. So about 1933. Does that sound right? LEIBSOHN: I imagine. I can't remember the exact -- KURN: Do you remember how old the boys were? LEIBSOHN: Yes. Mark was 11 and Gene was 7. There's four years difference. KURN: And your husband had never been to Phoenix, Arizona and you convinced him to move here? LEIBSOHN: Yes. Because we got rid of the furniture business and we thought it would be a good place to be here. KURN: That was very gutsy on your part, everybody's part. With two little boys and -- LEIBSOHN: Yeah. It wasn't easy. KURN: It had to have been very hard. LEIBSOHN: Yeah. It was hard. KURN: And you had to leave your parents and your brothers and sisters. LEIBSOHN: It was hard to get established again. It wasn't easy. We went through a lot of adversities, like a lot of people do. KURN: Can you describe Phoenix when you first moved here with your two boys and husband? LEIBSOHN: Well, I Just told you that there was a lot of orchards around and there wasn't much building and Scottsdale was practically a desert. You know, there was practically nothing much here. my brother had land where the airport is and after he passed away there were four of us, and some of her family. Anyhow, they wanted to sell the land, you know, years ago. I think we got about $18,000 for It and a little later on It brought about $3,000,000, so that's how lucky we were. I remember Mark was just a young boy. He said well, we ought not to sell It, but then he was Just the one among all. You know, when you have a lot of people that things are left to, why it's sort of hard. KURN: Did you buy a house right away when you moved here? LEIBSOHN: No. I lived with my brother for awhile and then we rented a house, and then we built the home on Coronado. I'm trying to think how many years old that is. That's about - let's see, Mark was 16 at the time. He was in Chicago, because he went to Northwestern to take up some journalism. He was sent from the high school because he was a real good student. He was 16, and that's the time we started building the house, so you figure out how many years ago that was. KURN: You made friends right away, or was it hard to meet Jewish people in those days? LEIBSOHN: Well, there weren't too many Jewish people. I know who else lived here - Sitkins. He was a dentist. Fanny Sitkin. He was a Jewish dentist here. KURN: What was his first name? LEIBSOHN: Frank, and Fanny Sitkin. KURN: They were about your age? LEIBSOHN: I think so. A little bit older than I. KURN: Was there any organized Jewish activities, or did people get together because they were Jewish? LEIBSOHN: Not too much, I don't think. Not too much at that time. We used to go to services on Friday night. We used to go on holidays; you know, we used to have Yom Kippur and all of that. I'm trying to think of some other Jewish people, but I just can't remember too many. KURN: Did they have a religious school for the boys when you first moved here and the boys were little? LEIBSOHN: Yes. I sent my boys to take up Hebrew before they were bar mitzvahed. I think the rabbi taught them then. I can't remember; I think it was the rabbi who taught them then, but I just can't remember. KURN: And this was at the little temple or -- LEIBSOHN: Uh-huh. KURN: Still at the little temple on -- LEIBSOHN: Culver. It was about maybe 2nd or 3rd Street. I can't remember. It was 2nd street; East Culver. I can't remember. It was so many years ago. KURN: How many families did you have at the temple then? LEIBSOHN: Well, I can't remember. I can't remember just how many Jewish families there were. I think they lived here too -- her daughter is married to Herman -- that big builder, what's his name Chanen. Do you remember her name? KURN: No. LEIBSOHN: I can't either. I think they lived here - - the parents. I can't remember their name. Her parents lived here too. Oh, Herman Lewkowitz's sister too, but I can't remember her last name. Hattie was her first name. She lived here, she and her husband were living here when we came. But I can't remember her last name. KURN: Now, this was Temple Beth Israel? LEIBSOHN: Oh, yes. KURN: Did they have a Sisterhood or a Men's Club? LEIBSOHN: I think they had a Sisterhood. They had a Sisterhood and I think they had a -- what's the other one they had? KURN: Men's Club -- LEIBSOHN: No. There was another organization I belonged to -- a life member. I forget now what it's called. KURN: Like a Hadassah or B'nai B'rith? LEIBSOHN: Oh, no. I think Hadassah I belonged to for many, many years. I think they had the Hadassah then too. But I can't remember the -- I don't know for how many years that was. KURN: Did we have any other congregations when you first moved here, or was Temple Beth Israel the only -- LEIBSOHN: I don't know where the Orthodox met, If they had some meeting place for them or not. But I don't know where It was at, I just remember Beth Israel. KURN: Did your husband get active and involved in the temple? LEIBSOHN: Well, we went all the time. I don't know how active he was. He was quite religious, always used to fast on the holidays and go on Friday nights. KURN: When you first came, you didn't work? LEIBSOHN: No, I never worked in my life. KURN: Tell me what your husband did; what kind of work was he -- LEIBSOHN: He was with my brother in the business, the hide and wool business. KURN: What was the name of it? LEIBSOHN: It went by the name Effron and Company, I guess. KURN: And they worked well together? LEIBSOHN: I think so. Then my older brother, Frank Effron, came out from Chicago, and he went in the business. Then his son, Ralph came and he went in the business. Ralph still lives here. My brother, Frank and my sister-in-law; they're gone, you know, for quite awhile already. KURN: That was nice that your husband had something to go into. LEIBSOHN: Oh, yes. Things were pretty rough in those days. But then you know living was so cheap in those days. KURN: How did people celebrate the holidays when you first came here? LEIBSOHN: They had the temple; they observed Yom Kippur and the other holidays there. We fasted on holidays. I think my son still fasts and I do too. I think I've fasted ever since I've been 12. Of course, I came from a very Orthodox home. It makes a difference, you know. Today the world Is different. I guess there's a lot of Intermarriages, and I don't know whether it's good or not. Some of the nice families here have intermarried, and I guess the parents haven't felt too bad about it. At least if the families are nice. Is that the way you feel about it? KURN: I think so. I think so. But when your boys started going to school, did they go to religious school at the temple, both boys? LEIBSOHN: Well, they went to temple before bar mitzvah. KURN: Quite a few children in their class? LEIBSOHN: A few, yeah. KURN: Do you remember any of their friends? LEIBSOHN: I can't remember. That Lois Chanen; It was her brother. He passed away, but I can't remember her last name. And of course Nona Lewkowitz was in the class with Eugene Leibsohn, with my son. Her name's Mrs. Ralph Segal now. I know who else lived here -- the Gold family. KURN: I don't think I know them. LEIBSOHN: The grandson is a urologist Dr. Stern. His grandfather and grandmother were here; their name was Gold. They had a store on Washington also. Dr. Stern, I don't know if he was here at that time or not when we came. He may have been here. He was a chiropodist, I remember. You perhaps know the son, the urologist, don't you? Dr. Stern? KURN: I think so. LEIBSOHN: And they were here; the Golds. I remember now. That was one of the older families. They're of course gone long ago. KURN: Were your boys bar mitzvahed In the old temple? LEIBSOHN: Oh, sure. KURN: What school did they go to? LEIBSOHN: Mark graduated from the Northwestern law school, and then my nephew was a Harvard graduate In law. He thought he liked to go to Washington where he was, but he wasn't too happy there and he came back. He had to take the law here. Mark went in the army for four years; became a captain in the signal corps. He had to disrupt his education. Gene had to disrupt his too, his first year at Northwestern. Then he went into the army for two years. He always wanted to be a doctor ever since he was a little boy. He used to go around with a satchel and I've never known anyone like him in my life. I'm his mother, but I have never known anyone as wonderful and kind. And Mark is wonderful too. Mark is very spiritual; he's more quiet, he carries it within, but very honorable; a man of great honor. Like he says, "You don't live by bread alone, Mother." I'm really proud of both of them. I never talk about It to anyone, but I can to you because you're intelligent. KURN: What elementary school did you send them to when you first moved here? LEIBSOHN: Well, the Kenilworth School was right near where my brother lived. So Mark graduated there. And they only had one high school here one high school when Mark went. It was on -- I don't know, what is that high school that they're always trying to sell or something - that oldest one? KURN: North High? LEIBSOHN: No, no. Gene went to North High. That was the second one they built. That was the first one, they're always trying to sell it. KURN: What were the schools like in those days? LEIBSOHN: Well, Kenilworth was a nice school. When Mark was 16 he was real good -- they sent him in Northwestern; they got a special course in journalism. Mark always studied awfully hard; everything he did, he wanted It to be perfect, which is not good. what do you call people -- KURN: A perfectionist. LEIBSOHN: Uh-huh. Everything he wanted to be Just so. Not good to be that way. I used to be that way and It Isn't good. My husband was a little more the other way. You know, "You can't do that, you can't keep reaching for the stars because life is not like that." KURN: Were there any youth groups like Temple Beth Israel Youth Group? LEIBSOHN: No. Nothing like that in those days. Not like they have now. KURN: Nothing for the kids, no dancing? LEIBSOHN: Nothing in those days. You know, I want to tell you about Eugene. He went to kindergarten In Cedar Rapids, and in those days they could go to school before they were five. His birthday is in March, and he would have started In Sept ember I guess. I have to tell you about him because he's been this way all his life. He wasn't even five years old. I even remember the kindergarten teacher's name; her name was Miss Kniss, K-n-i-s-s. She's very sweet and she called me up one day to tell me about my son. And this has been the way he's been all his life. He would hate it if I'd tell it. People tell me how they love him and I don't ever dare to tell them because he doesn't want to hear that. He's very, very humble, both the boys are. I don't think that's very good to be too humble, do you? KURN: They are the way they are. LEIBSOHN: Yes. But maybe it was my fault, because maybe I never praised them. I made a lot of mistakes In my life. KURN: They're good people though. LEIBSOHN: Some people don't make mistakes, do they? KURN: Everybody does. We all do. LEIBSOHN: Do they? KURN: You do your best. LEIBSOHN: Anyway, she called me, and there was a little girl in there; I can't remember her name. I guess she had had polio, so she walked I think a little crippled, not very much. But in those days if children didn't obey they'd say, "Well you go in the clothes closet and stand, and then when you can behave yourself, when you can be good, then you come out." He raised his hand -- he wasn't five -- and he said, "May I please go in and stand in the closet for her?" And that's the way he's been all his life. KURN: That's your lawyer. LEIBSOHN: No, that's Eugene. KURN: That's the doctor. LEIBSOHN: That's my son. It was such a beautiful story, because he's been that way all his life. KURN: Tell me; when they went to Kenilworth I suppose there weren't too many Jewish children going to Kenilworth. LEIBSOHN: Well, just Burt Lewkowitz went - you know he passed away not long ago. I think he was 64 in October or September. He was there, and I think the older Sitkin - he became later a doctor. The Sitkin boy, the older one, I think he was there. And I don't know too many. I know another couple that lived here. Their name was Karp. That was Leonard Karp, the dentist. His mother and father; they had a store also on Washington. They owned the building right next to Korricks. They were here when I came. KURN: Do you remember the name of their store? LEIBSOHN: No. KURN: Do you remember their first names? LEIBSOHN: No. KURN: Was there much anti-Semitism towards the Jewish children? LEIBSOHN: Well, I don't -- of course, I suppose there's always been some in this world, you know -- but I don't think - not that they would have noticed. I suppose there's a lot of it today, too, that's hidden, isn't it? KURN: They didn't mind if the boys took off for the holidays? LEIBSOHN: No. The boys always stayed out of school, you know. No, I don't think there was any of that. Of course, I think there's a lot more now maybe than there was then. of course, maybe there's always been. I remember when I was in Michael Reese Hospital one of the Jewish girls complained to one of the head nurses there that she felt that because she was Jewish that -- and that was a Jewish hospital -- she felt that -- but I never felt that way. I remember when I was in high school they always had fraternities and societies that we belonged to. I belonged to two of them; one was a Kappa, and then I belonged to the one that was a French society, because I was quite studious in school. This other one we belonged to you had to have real high grades; it was a Kappa and I remember my professor came up to me one day -- and he was the one who said to me - because I was the second Jewish girl that was ever admitted to it -- and he said, "Do you ever feel that it's anti-Semitic?" and I said, "No, I don't feel that way." But maybe within I did, you know. I suppose there was always a thought of that, but I never felt it. KURN: The boys never complained about it? LEIBSOHN: Never. No. They never felt that way. KURN: They had Jewish and non-Jewish friends? LEIBSOHN: Yes. KURN: What other Jewish things would go on in Phoenix in the earlier days, other than life at the temple? LEIBSOHN: Well, as I say I think they had the Sisterhood and I think they used to have meetings and -- it was the Council, was the other one. That's what I belonged to, a life member. They don't have that anymore, do they? KURN: Council of Jewish Women? Yes. LEIBSOHN: I never go to the meetings, but I'm a life member. Because I paid that many years, so they made me a life member. KURN: What was it like and what kind of things did they do? LEIBSOHN: I think they tried to raise money and do things like they do now. I think I was made a life member about 18 years ago. KURN: What did the money go for, do you remember? LEIBSOHN: I think for the temple and things, you know. KURN: Were you active in the building of the new temple? LEIBSOHN: Not a great deal. KURN: Didn't get involved In the raising of the funds or -- LEIBSOHN: I wasn't too active. KURN: It went from this location to where it's at now, or was there a building in between? LEIBSOHN: No. You mean the temple? KURN: Yes. LEIBSOHN: It went from Culver right to where they built now. I don't think there was anything In between. They had that old temple when I first came here. They weren't married at that time, Abe Korrick and the other brother, Charlie Korrick. They were still single then at that time. KURN: They had weddings going on in Phoenix In the Jewish community? Did the boys meet their wives here in Phoenix or did they date Jewish girls, do you remember? LEIBSOHN: They dated nothing but Jewish girls. They never went out with Gentile girls, ever. Neither one of my boys. And the grandsons never did either. Eric is Betty's and mark's son; he's an architect, and he's gone by himself now. I Just hope and pray it'll go well. It's kind of a challenge to go by yourself. He met the girl whom he married in New Orleans. He went to New Orleans to -- you know what college that is, that big -- KURN: Tulane? LEIBSOHN: Yeah, Tulane. And she came from a lovely family. Her father was a doctor, her brother was a doctor. She went to law school at Tulane and she's the girl he married about a year ago. You saw their marriage picture. She now is working for a big firm -- maybe you know about them -- it's in the Valley National Bank. Is it Gust and something, do you know what company that is? It's a big concern, but I don't remember the name. She likes it real well. Because she had to take the law here -- she graduated from Tulane in law, then she worked in Houston, Texas so I don't know but what she had to take the Texas thing. Then she had to come here for It and study that. She's a real sweet, lovely girl; quite religious. Her family are very Orthodox. They keep it kosher in their home. KURN: Did anybody keep kosher when you first moved here? LEIBSOHN: Well, I don't think too many people of course, I never -- I came from a very kosher family, maybe some people, I don't know. But I never ate ham or pork or anything like that in my life, but I didn't keep kosher either the whole time. Mark's other son, that's Steven, he's a doctor. He's studying to be a doctor, a gynecologist. He's in his -- in June it will be his second year. And he married a nice Jewish girl who he met in Tucson. She's studying law at UCLA and she will graduate in June. A nice Jewish girl. Then Linda graduated from Tucson, then she didn't know what she wanted to do, then she became a nurse. Then she married into the Deaktor family. You perhaps know them Deaktors? KURN: No. LEIBSOHN: You don't know the Deaktors? KURN: No. LEIBSOHN: Ann Deaktor -- they do a lot of charity work here -- and Larry Deaktor. Then he's graduating from law school this year. KURN: Tell me about your house, your first house you built in Phoenix. LEIBSOHN: It was a darling house, 505 West Coronado. It was all oak floors and we had a basement. We had a nice living room and a separate dining room, and the kitchen and two lovely big bedrooms. It was a nice location. Right across from it -- the house is still there -- Vice President Marshall built that home, but I can't remember under whose administration he was. It's a big brick house. But it was a darling house. Then as I told you we sold it and moved up on 40th and Camelback. KURN: Did you have any kind of air conditioning or cooling? LEIBSOHN: We had cooling. I didn't have any -- I had just cooling, but I didn't have any refrigeration in that house. I was going to put it in and put it in, and we didn't put it in. KURN: And wasn't it unusual to have basements? LEIBSOHN: Well, kind of. But we did. We had this basement. I guess a few houses had basements. This furniture that I've had recovered several times was bought when we built that house. Mark was 16 when we built that house on Coronado; how many years ago would that be? 48, wouldn't it? 48 and 16 is 64. Is that right? KURN: Yes. LEIBSOHN: 48 years ago; bought this couch and that chair. I got rid of some of the other chairs and it was very good furniture. From Chicago, and I've had that recovered about two or three times. KURN: And you got that -- LEIBSOHN: Here. When I got married I had very, very beautiful furniture. My brother-in-law was in the furniture business. We went to Chicago where they showed furniture in that big merchandise building. I had such beautiful, beautiful things. I never wanted it again, because we moved here. Had to get rid of -- had a gorgeous mahogany set, it was exquisite. And beautiful mahogany things. I never wanted it again; material things never meant much to me. You know, I just wanted the children to get along all right and wanted them to be happy, but material things meant nothing much. I was always awfully Immaculate and clean about everything, you know, my food, when I made it and cooked I was always a wonderful cook and baker, and I always wanted everything to be just so. But material things didn't mean anything to me. KURN: Did you cook a lot of Jewish foods? LEIBSOHN: Well, I tried to make things simple. I mean, I didn't make anything like, you know -- KURN: It was probably hard to find Jewish -- LEIBSOHN: Yeah, and I never cooked a lot of Jewish things, but I baked a lot, sponge cakes and cookies for the children. That was my happiness when Gene had his first office there over on 5th Avenue -- my husband, he was such a sweet person -- and he used to help me toward the end I wasn't very -- used to make all kinds of cookies and that was my great happiness when I could take this big can of cookies and put it in Gene's car. We just lived about a block away. I lived on 6th Avenue, 3601 North 6th Avenue. My husband used to always help me, God bless him, with everything. After he was gone -- he was so sweet. I'll always remember the time we lived near that big Safeway, do you remember, on Osborn? It's still there. KURN: Right. LEIBSOHN: You know that building, that Piccadilly right on the corner there? KURN: That would be nice. LEIBSOHN: My friend, Mrs. Bandell, says "I'll never cook again." She's a lovely person. Anyhow, I'll never forget my husband -- he's awfully sweet, kind -- there was a girl that was working at Safeway and she was pregnant. Of course, you know you have to lift these -- and he used to say, "Rebecca, we're not ever going to her counter, because I don't want her to lift the bags." He was so thoughtful of everybody. When she had the baby, I remember he bought her a little gift for the baby. He was very, very kind and very sweet. Everyone cared for him very much. I remember when we first lived in the Arcadia Apartments when we first moved from our home -- that was on 40th. Maybe you know where they are, at Camelback. And I remember when we lived there two and a half years and we were going to move, and I heard that my neighbors were going to make a big party for us. My husband got a hold of it and was going to move away ahead of time, because he didn't want that. I didn't want that. I don't want anyone to do things like that for me. KURN: What was your neighborhood like on Coronado? LEIBSOHN: It was nice. Judge Stevens, you would know him, he lived two doors away. They lived near us, and we had nice neighbors. KURN: Was that a Jewish neighborhood? LEIBSOHN: No, no. That wasn't a Jewish neighborhood at all. KURN: Was there a Jewish neighborhood In Phoenix in those days? LEIBSOHN: I don't know -- I don't think there was any special Jewish neighborhood in Phoenix. I don't think ever. I can't remember any. You've been here how many years? KURN: About 25. LEIBSOHN: Well, It was pretty well built up when you came. KURN: Right. How long did you live in this house, at 505 West -- LEIBSOHN: We lived there about 40 years. KURN: You lived in that one house 40 years? LEIBSOHN: Oh, yes. We had a lot of nice Gentile people that lived around, you know. KURN: Were there any problems living amongst the Gentiles? LEIBSOHN: Oh, no. There were nice Gentile people that lived there. We never had any problems with anyone being anti-Semitic. I Imagine there's a lot more of that now than there used to be. Maybe hidden, but it's in here. We know that. Maybe someday we'll all have to run to Israel. Have you been there? KURN: Uh-huh. LEIBSOHN: Would you want to live there? KURN: I don't think so. But I loved visiting. LEIBSOHN: Gene's daughter who just graduated from Occidental; she's there now. None of his children are married. Andrea, she's going to be 23. She's a real lovely girl. She took up Hebrew there and now I guess she's going to teach a little bit. I don't know what she's doing. Betty has -- her nephew is there; he's a brilliant boy. He's an engineer. And the father Is a banker in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and he's very prominent there. And the boy, Bobby, is in Israel. He's working for some big concern. I guess he fell in love with a girl there that's a caterer but I don't think she ever wants to move here. He's a wonderful boy, but why do so many young people like it there? Do you have any idea? KURN: Oh, just pioneer living. LEIBSOHN: One woman that lives here; of course you know Irving Schaeffer. His mother-in-law lives here. And Irving has a daughter that moved there, married to a rabbi, and they have five or six children. The grandmother told me that Molly - I said, my God In heaven, she wasn't too Jewish; you know, didn't ever care too much about Judaism. She went there and now she even wears a shatel. It's unbelievable, isn't it? You don't understand it, and I don't. My granddaughter that's the lawyer now, married to my grandson, her sister is married to a lawyer. She's a brilliant girl and they had everything in the world. They lived in Georgia or Tennessee, and moved out to Israel. They had a beautiful home, and now they have just a small home, four children. And the mother and father, they're lovely people -- they were here for a visit, they come every year; he just retired, he was an ear, nose and throat doctor -- and she said, "What in the world do they have to go there for?" She doesn't understand; they're very religious people. I don't understand it either. Do you? KURN: No, not really. LEIBSOHN: There must be something to be fascinated about that you have to understand. I don't know what it is. KURN: Let me ask you. When your neighbors were celebrating Christmas, when you lived on Coronado, did you observe Hanukkah? LEIBSOHN: Oh, my God, yes. We never observed Christmas. Of course not. They knew we were Jewish people. Sometimes they'd tell us to come in and look at the Christmas tree, but my God in heaven, they didn't mean anything to us. KURN: How did you celebrate Hanukkah, do you remember? LEIBSOHN: Well, the children were little. They had seven candles and each got gifts, you know. Now they're older, but -- KURN: And then they went on to high school here. LEIBSOHN: Yes. KURN: Now, did they date the Jewish girls in high school? Were there any Jewish clubs? LEIBSOHN: Not too many. The boys didn't do much dating until after they got out of college. KURN: Did they have AZA then? LEIBSOHN: They had some Gentile friends, but they didn't take any Gentile girls out, which I thought was sort of unusual. They were nice looking boys, but they never did. KURN: So you think Phoenix was a pretty good place when you first moved here? LEIBSOHN: I guess. You know, we've lived here all these years. I loved Cedar Rapids; it was a beautiful city and I loved it. But after having lived here all these years, I'm sure I'll die here. My husband's buried here and I'll be buried next to him. KURN: Did you ever want to go back when you first came out as a young girl? LEIBSOHN: Yes. [Taping ends abruptly.] [end of transcript]