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Marshall Lehman

..intr:

Jane Wabnik

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1989

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2000.032.002  Marshall Lehman, 1998

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An Interview

with

Marshall Lehman

March 29, 1989

Transcriptionist: Karen Hirsch 

Interviewer: Jane Wabnik

Arizona Jewish Historical Society

Log for

Marshall Lehman Interview

Pages

1-6 Parents immigration from Lithuania to El Paso, Texas

and then to Douglas, Arizona.

7-9 Need for Jewish education; family moves to Phoenix

in 1948. Members of Beth El Congregation.

10 Business unsuccessful in Phoenix, return to Duncan. Join relatives in
Safford, Arizona, others from Lordsburg, New Mexico for Jewish holidays.

11 Mormon friends of parents; attempt to convert.

12 Segregation of schools in Duncan, Anglo and Hispanic. Problem of one
Black family, kept separate from both Anglo and Hispanic groups.

13 Klan-type activity against Black family.

14 Integration of schools in 1954; fostered Anglo-Hispanic friendships.

15-16 Traveling salesmen; high percentage of them were Jewish.

17-18 Boarded with the Burns' family (Abe Burns a butcher at Gross
Delicatessen) in Phoenix in 1957 to study during school term for bar
mitzvah; brother did same a year later with the Finkelstein family.

19-20 Phoenix in 1948-49; walking as child from Beth El at 3rd Avenue and
McDowell to home on 7th Ave and Missouri. Walked past Arizona Downs. Town
did not feel like metropolis.

20-21 High school in Duncan.

21-24 College at University of Arizona. Fraternity rush, first experience
with anti-Semitism.

25-27 Law clerk with Judge Muec-ke

28-31 Motivation for being founding chairman of Arizona Jewish Historical
Society; early years of organization.

32-34 Perspectives on organization; suggestions for oral history
interviewees.

34-35 First date with Jewish girl.

36 Parents store in Duncan; speaking Spanish and Yiddish.

37-38 Floods of Gila River in 1972 and 1978 and their effect in Duncan and
on mother's house; near tornado in Duncan, 1983.


	Marshall Lehman Interview

This is Jane Wabnik at the office of Marshall Lehman who has kindly
consented to give us an interview for the Arizona Jewish Historical
Society. There are a lot of things that we are going to be able to talk
about with Marshall since he's grown up in the state of Arizona and has
some interesting stories to tell us about being the member of the only
Jewish family in a small town. I think that what we are going to do now is
just ask Marshall to tell us what it was like and if he could begin by
telling us about his parents first and how they came to Arizona. Marshall?

Lehman: Sure. First of all my parents were named Joseph and Sarah Lehman.
My father died in 1968; my mother is still alive and still lives in Duncan,
Arizona. Duncan is in Greenlee County in the southeast part of the state.
We like to tell people when they ask us with that incredulous look on their
face "where is Duncan, Arizona?" that it's right down there between Sheldon
and York, two almost non-existent little crossroads. Duncan is about 40
miles southeast of Safford, about 30 miles south of Clifton in the upper
Gila River Valley. It's a small town now with, I think officially on the
1980 census about 604 people, it was larger than that when I was a kid
growing up. The town itself was probably maybe as many as 1200 or so. It
sits in a high valley at about 3500 feet elevation and is surrounded by
ranches and farms and is supported in major part by the large copper mine
at Clifton, well, actually at Morenci, the Phelps Dodge copper mine which is
the second largest in the world. My parents got to Duncan in the late '30s 
early '40s, they had immigrated from Europe in 1938, my mother from the 
little town of Saudini, Lithuania and my father from the little town across 
the border of Kockshen, or Kleinekockshen, Prussia which was a part of 
Germany. As I understand it, the largest town of any significance was 
Danzig, which is now Gdansk, Poland. They, my parents, were distant
cousins, I'm not exactly sure how distant. But they got married and there
has always been kind of a family joke that they married because my mother
had tickets or passage to the United States. They got to Duncan really
through El Paso, Texas where I had then, and still have a large family. I
have seen pictures of my great-uncle Simon, who was known as Sam Kahn who
went to Europe in 1935 or 1936 to get as much of his family out of Europe
as he could. And I've seen the classic pictures of the, what appears to be
the rich well dressed American industrialist, surrounded by ten or twelve
peasants, and one of those peasants was my mother. She laughs that she, my
sister was born, my older sister Arlene was born on September 11 of 1938.
Arlene lives here in Phoenix, she is now Arlene Lurie. Arlene was born in
September of '38 when my parents were here I think about four or five
weeks. They arrived in early August of 1938 and my mother always said, I
don't know if it was true or not, that she would not get on a German ship
to come to this country because she wanted her child, if born at sea, to be
born an American citizen. So they came on the U.S.S. Roosevelt. And she has 
often recounted to us her passage and it sounds like the classic story of 
European peasants coming to the United States. She was sick and pregnant 
and sick and tired of the entire trip but happy she was leaving Europe. Sad 
of course that she was leaving her family behind, all of whom died in the 
Holocaust, except one sister of hers who preceded her and went to Palestine 
in 1934 or 1935. That's my aunt Chana, who still lives in a kibbutz, Yagor, 
outside of Haifa.

In any event, when they got to El Paso my parents, strike that. When they
got to Ellis Island they passed quickly through immigration and had already
tickets, train tickets to go to El Paso. So unlike many Jewish European
immigrants who settled in New York, the lower East Side and that classic
story, they bypassed that and went directly to El Paso where their family
was or my mother's family really. My uncle Sam had a large commercial
bakery, called Kahn's Baking Company which baked commercial, basically
commercial bread for supermarkets. And, it's still in the family now and
its third or fourth generation and my father was given a job basically as a
janitor in the, in the bakery. And my mother and father started learning
how to speak English. They lived initially with another aunt and uncle,
Karl and Anna Wallace. My aunt Anna was the sister of my aunt Ida who was
married to Sam Kahn. Those two women, Anna Wallace and Ida Kahn, were
sisters to my mother's mother, sisters of my maternal grandmother. Both of
my aunts in El Paso, Anna and Ida, were wonderful women, they lived both
into their 90s, in fact they both died within the past year. My aunt Ida 
in...no my aunt Anna died first, Anna Wallace died in December of 1987, and 
Ida Kahn died in July of 1988.

In any event, my parents first lived with the Wallaces for some time, and
until they got their feet on the ground and got their own apartment. My
uncle Karl Wallace was, he was from Syracuse, New York, and he was a great
tease. He used to play tricks and my mother used to tell me stories about
how he would , for example, take my older sister Arlene who was an infant
and hide her from my mother and just drive her crazy. And, here she was she
couldn't speak English and she couldn't find the baby. He, my aunt Anna
kept a Kosher home and he used to love to play practical jokes on her. For
example, once he bought a big, large, live pig and put it in the bathtub
and it was in there when she came in there. And he used to do all kinds of
crazy things like that. He was a lot of fun. He died in about 1968 or so as
well as my great uncle Sam Kahn.

In any event they lived in El Paso and by this time it's 1940 or '41 or so
and my father who was 40 years old when he came to this country, could see
that he did not want to spend the rest of his life as a janitor, and so he
started looking about for other things to do. He had a younger brother,
Karl Lehman, who owned a little clothing store in Duncan, Arizona. My uncle
Karl had come from Europe in I think 1929 or 1930, somewhere along in
there, and had, I'm not exactly sure how he passed the intervening years
except in general terms, I know that at one time he had a store in Globe, 
Arizona and I think for a short time he worked in Safford, Arizona, where 
there were other, was another small enclave of Jewish merchants, including 
the Belmans, who were related to me on my father's side, Lamar and Celia 
Belman. My uncle Lamar Belman died in September of 1987, in his early 90's, 
my aunt Celia Belman is still alive and lives in Los Angeles. Her son Ben 
Belman, who is about 65, lives in San Diego, Rancho Bernardo, and I 
maintain contact with them. In any event, they had a store in Safford, a 
retail clothing store, and I think my uncle Karl Lehman worked for them for 
a while, and then, which is typical of the genre, moved to Duncan so he 
could open his own little store. By 1940 or so his business was thriving 
and he asked my father to come to Duncan and go into business with him 
which he did. And that lasted for a while until they, their families were 
growing, and they could see that the little town of Duncan would probably 
not support both families, so my uncle Carl moved, this would have been in 
about '40 or '41 I think, somewhere along in there, moved to Lordsburg, New 
Mexico, which was about 35 miles away and opened a little clothing store 
there where he prospered and lived until about ten years ago when he sold 
the store. A few years after he left Duncan my parents bought the Duncan 
store and it remained in their ownership and still does to this day when my 
mother, who still lives in Duncan, she's 75, she still opens and closes the 
store every day. She greets customers, she goes up and down the ladders to 
get merchandise off the high shelves, and my brother, my younger brother 
Steve, who was born in 1945, in fact he just had a birthday on March 26, 
1945, also works in the store. Steve also is the Justice of the Peace for 
the little town of Duncan and has an interesting avocation. He raises, owns,
trains and races thoroughbreds. He's probably one of the few Jewish trainers
in the state of Arizona, if not the only one. In fact he, I talked to him on
his birthday Sunday, he said that he had run his horse, one of his horses 
in the Greenlee County fair circuit that day and his horse, aptly named 
"Needs a Miracle", won. So I'm not sure if I've answered your question but 
that's how they got to Duncan.

Wabnik: Well I think you certainly answered that question. Tell me what it
was like being there and how many other Jewish families other than your
immediate relatives were there.

Lehman: We were the only Jewish family in Duncan. In fact we may be the
only Jewish family that's ever been in Duncan, that I know of. As I said
when I was a kid it was bigger than it is now, maybe as much as 1200, 1500
people, plus the surrounding environs. Now it's down to about 600 having
suffered the twin blows of several serious floods, which we can talk about
later because they illustrated how strong my family is, especially my
mother, and the decline of the copper industry and the changes going
through the copper industry and the impact of that big strike in, I think
it was '83, and how that has reduced the payroll of the Phelps Dodge mine
and the local population. But, as a kid, I was, my family was the only
Jewish family in town and still is today.

Wabnik: Did your family maintain the traditions and how did they go about
doing that in that kind of environment?

Lehman: Very much so. When my, my parents of course were from the old
country, wanted us to have a Jewish education and in 1948 or '49 my father
decided that he wanted to, my parents decided that they wanted to move to
Phoenix. The sole motivation for the move was so that we could get a Jewish
education. So he asked people where he could build a store in Phoenix, and
prosper. The people he asked, as I understand it, were traveling salesmen
who, one of whom told him that the best place in Phoenix where he could
have a store was on South Central. So he bought a lot at 4101 South Central
and he built a little building on it. And I remember as a kid he would come
to, he was his own general contractor, he would come to Phoenix about once
a week and supervise the construction of this building. It was built out of
concrete block. The building is still there, it's now a Mexican furniture
store called Mueble via Mexicana. And my mother sold it about ten or twelve
years ago. In any event I remember coming as a kid with him, he got his
first car in 1948, it was a 1948 Chevy, he was really proud of it, 'cause
he, right after the war, he, cars were hard to get and he had been on a
waiting list for quite some time. And I remember he got that two-door
coupe, green Chevy, and he used to drive it to Phoenix to supervise the
construction of this building and I remember coming with him more than once
when we came through the, the mountains between Miami
and Superior, on Highway 70. At that time the Queen Creek tunnel was not
yet built, in fact I think it was under construction at that time, and it
was an eight-hour trip, it's now about five hours. But it was a winding,
mountainous road, and he was very anxious to come to Phoenix. We would
leave Duncan about three o'clock in the morning typically on a Sunday
morning after he closed the business on Saturday, close the store, and we'd
leave real early on Sunday morning and get here at noon or so. He would
spend Sunday and maybe Monday supervising the store. He got the store
built, we moved to Phoenix, we bought a home on 7th Avenue and Luke, which
is a couple blocks north of Missouri. And my brother and I went to grade
school at Grandview, which is on 11th Avenue and Camelback and my sister
was I think a freshman or sophomore at West High School. And I remember
walking to school through a big field, a cotton field, at 7th Avenue and
Camelback where there is now a little, the Target shopping center. At that
time it was a cotton field. And my brother and I used to play in the summer
and swing in the trees and in the canals over at 15th Avenue and Missouri,
and that area, Bethany Home, 15th Avenue and Bethany Home, it was a place
called the Tamaracks, for all the tamarack trees that were there. It is now
the site of Christown Shopping Center. I remember we used to pull the lids
off the garbage cans in the alleys and use them for shields and throw rocks
up and down the alleys and go over and swing in the trees all day long in
the water in the canals over at the tamaracks.

In any event, business on south Central was not very good, in fact there 
were days when not only the cash register didn't ring, there were days when 
no customers passed through the door. So my parents could see that this was 
economically a disaster, so they decided to move back to Duncan. They had 
sold their little store in Duncan to a man named David Bender who was also 
Jewish, and he had been a traveling salesman and had decided that he wanted 
to get off the road and as it turned out, his family, his wife particularly 
as I understand it, did not like the little town. So after a year in living 
in Phoenix, my parents bought the store back and we moved back to Duncan. 
While we were in Phoenix though, we were members of Beth El Congregation, 
in fact we had been before we moved to Phoenix. The question you asked me 
before I started this rambling dialogue was, did we have any Jewish life in 
Duncan and what was it like, as I understand it, and we did. My parents were
members of Beth El Congregation before we moved to Phoenix, and they closed 
the store every Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashana and typically we came to 
services on one of the two, typically not both, but usually one, in Phoenix.
And they closed that store even though that was during the height of the 
business season because of the cotton picking season in Arizona, at that 
time there was a program known as the "Bracero" program which was a Mexican 
stoop labor program by which the cotton was picked. It was really at the 
very beginning of mechanized picking of cotton and when I was a kid I 
remember the cotton pickers, Mexican cotton pickers were a very significant 
element of Duncan's economy in the fall because the cotton was
picked in September, October and of course that's when Rosh Hashana and Yom
Kippur usually are, always are, and they would close the store
notwithstanding that was the high time of the season for them because all
these Mexican braceros came into the store and would spend their money
buying clothes for their families in Mexico. I remember they were,
typically they would come in, buy a big metal footlocker and fill it with
clothes, Levis, western boots, western shirts and those kinds of things and
ship them to their families in Mexico. So it was at some economic cost that
my parents would close the store but they always did.

Also, after we moved back to Duncan we would from time to time get together
with some of our relatives in Safford for Jewish observations. The ones
that I remember the most were Purim, for the kids, there were maybe six or
eight or ten Jewish kids in Safford all of whom were cousins in one way or
another and the families would plan a little event and so Jewish families
would drive from Duncan, Lordsburg, my cousins from Lordsburg, and there
would be a little party. And that happened more than once. So there was a
definite effort on the part of my parents to maintain the Jewishness of our
lives including the financial and economic fiasco of the effort to move to
Phoenix physically.

Wabnik: How did your neighbors react to the fact that your holidays came at
different times from their holidays and that some of your traditions were
different?

Lehman: Well, Duncan was a, we may have been lucky in this
regard, Duncan is about I would say a third Mormon, and Mormons view
themselves as one of the ten lost tribes of Israel, in fact as you may know
they refer to all other non-Mormons as gentiles. So I think there was some,
and this is speculation on my part, somewhat of a respect or cherishing, or
a little bit different treatment of us by the Mormons because we were the
only Jewish family and they are people of the book and they respected the
fact that my parents were Jewish. And my mother laughingly refers to
herself as the "Mormon Jew-lady". And a lot of her good friends are
Mormons, in fact, a little anecdote. My family had a real good friend in
Duncan named Waldo Packer. And Waldo was, he died a few years ago, he had
to have died about the same time as my father in '68 or some where along
there, in any event, Waldo came to my parents shortly before he died, he
was a very staunch Mormon and told them that he had cancer and that he
wouldn't be around much longer. And they expressed their regrets for that
and asked if there was anything they could do. And he kind of looked at
them sheepishly and said, "Well, yes" he said, "Joe, Sarah, when you moved
here, I was assigned to you by the church to attempt to convert you to
Mormonism. And you sure could make my life a lot easier if you would do
that." And my mom and dad looked at him and said "Waldo, that's one of the
few things we can't do for you." So, it was kind of funny because he had
become a good friend of the family and for close to forty years they never
knew of this assignment. So, the fact of growing up in that small town, I 
have kind of diddled with the idea of someday writing a biography. I haven't
gotten much further than the title, which is "Mormons, Mexicans, Methodists,
and Me."

Wabnik: I like the title.

(Laughter)

Lehman: That kind of sums up life in the small town at that time. Because
as I say, it was about a third Mormon, about a third Mexican-American, and
about a third southern, red-neck, Methodist, Baptist, I'm using the word
"southern redneck" loosely, but, people from that part of the world, Texas,
Oklahoma, Arkansas, and then, there was this one little Jewish family. I
remember when I was a kid, until 1954 when the Brown decision came down,
the, we went to a segregated school system in southeastern Arizona which, I
think people who live here now might find hard to believe that this wasn't
Alabama or Mississippi. There was a separate school for the
Mexican-American kids until I was in fourth grade. And, it was decidedly
inferior to the Anglo school, it was up on the side of a hill, it had a
rocky, dirty playground, the Anglo school was nice and grassy, and it had a
nice grassy playground, etc. I remember in about 1950 or '51 or so a black
family moved to town and the town fathers didn't know where to put them,
didn't know which school to put them in, they had six or seven kids, they
were the Randolphs. And, so, their solution was to, they cleared out an old
semi-submerged bomb shelter, it was actually a quonset hut which was
semi-submerged and covered with about two feet of dirt,
it was on the upper reaches of the Anglo school. Don't forget this was five
or six years after the end of World War II. That building was then being
used as a storage facility for food for the cafeteria. In any event, they
cleared it out from the storage of food, hired a teacher, and put all six
or seven kids in there with the one teacher. And that's how they resolved
the dilemma of the Randolph family.
I don't have personal recollection of this, but I am told that there was a
cross burning by the Klan or somebody who was attempting to look like the
Klan, when the Randolphs moved to Duncan. I've been told by Mr. Brubaker
and Mrs. Brubaker, Mr. Brubaker for a long time was the Superintendent of
Schools and a very fine man and widely recognized throughout the state as a
very fine educator and school administrator. But he and his wife told me
that there was a cross burning at that time. The Randolph dilemma came to
kind of a funny end when, as I said earlier, Clifton is about 30, 35 miles
north of Duncan, and at that time, the Stanton family, which was of some
renown in the state, had an ice house, and they used to haul blocks of ice
down to Duncan, and at that time some people, not everyone, I'm not that
old, but some people still used ice, had an ice box rather than an electric
refrigerator. And they would buy the blocks of ice from the Stantons. And
Mr. Stanton was down in Duncan driving his ice truck one day when he saw
this kid walking down the street, Earl Randolph, who was about a seventh
grader and probably 6'2" and 220 pounds, and he decided that Earl would
probably make a fairly good football player. So as I understand the story,
he drove back up the hill to Clifton, convened a meeting of the town
council, and they, the town council gave Mr. Randolph a job driving the
city sanitation truck. And, the family moved to Clifton and Earl enrolled
and a few years later he was in high school, and I want to tell you, the
Clifton Trojans had a tremendous football team during the early '50s, in
large part because of Earl Randolph being there and they used to come down
to Duncan and just wipe us out, 61-0, scores like that. Earl later went on
to play college football at NAU, he played a little bit in the NFL as I
recall, and I'm told he is now a policeman in Oakland, California. And if I
ever get the time, I've always wanted to go interview him and find out what
really happened and what life in that little community was like for that
black family.

In about '54 as I recall I was in the fourth grade, they integrated the
school system and the Mexican-American kids came to school for the first
time in the integrated school system. I was in Mr. Lunt's fourth grade
class and I remember the kids spoke Spanish and they spoke Spanish to each
other and in the class and I remember a few times when they got their
knuckles rapped with a ruler for speaking Spanish. And, in any event, we
all went to school together and some of my best friends today are some of
those Mexican-American kids. Arthur Montoya, for example, Art and Carlos
Rodriguez, Teo Rodriguez, Manuel Kenteria and I all grew up together and
played football and basketball together and had a great time. Art now, owns 
a little meat market in Duncan, Arthur Montoya, he's a very fine person. 
And, I stop by and see him every time I go to Duncan.

Wabnik: While you're breathing, another quick question 'cause this is
fascinating. I want to go back to something that might seem unimportant,
but that struck me, you mentioned your father got his first car in 1948.
How did you get around before that, to get back and forth to Phoenix or to
even go through that area? What was the means of transportation that you
used?

Lehman: Typically bus, public bus.

Wabnik: Buses came through often enough?

Lehman: At that time the Greyhound Bus System was pretty well developed and
they came through, yes.

Wabnik: And otherwise you were pretty much stationary in the town in which
you lived.

Lehman: Oh, yeah.

Wabnik: So you walked all over town or...?

Lehman: Walked, or it was so small...

Wabnik: ...and your brother got his horses and rode them?

Lehman: Not for actual transportation. That's more for pleasure than for
actually getting from point A to point B.

Wabnik: I was just wondering about that in terms of people looking at the
changes from that period of time between Phoenix and the small town, about
how people got around.

Lehman: Sure. When I was a kid, also, we used to, in that little store, the
coming of a traveling salesman was a really an event because they brought 
news from the outside world. And, a high percentage of them were Jewish. 
And, it was kind of nice because they were like family. They would stay 
overnight instead of staying in a hotel. They would bring my parents a 
dozen bagels and a loaf of rye bread from Phoenix, and, so they were really 
friends. And, I remember Phil Copeland would come. He had a jobber company 
based in Phoenix called Copeland Wholesale, it's still here in town and you 
know they would bring news of what was happening, how this one was doing in 
his store in such-and-such a town, and all those kinds of things. And it was
really nice, and sometimes I remember, I must have been seven or eight years
old, I don't know I wanted to go, it must have been in the summertime 
because I wasn't in school, and I wanted to go to Safford and one of the 
salesman happened to be there, and he took me. And my parents would think 
nothing of it. And it was a big deal for me, because I got to ride in a 
great big brand new Cadillac. So that was kind of fun. When the Levi Strauss
salesman came, that was like a, that was a big deal, because that was an 
important line and what Levi Strauss put out at that time was kind of a 
trend setter, particularly in cowboy shirts, they were real big in western 
shirts when I was a kid, and so when the Levi Strauss salesman came, that 
was like everything stopped.

Wabnik: Did your mother have the time with all the work that she was doing
to be able to keep a Kosher home and bring in all of the things she needed
or did she purchase right there in town from the other people who were
there?

Lehman: The latter, mostly. She didn't want to keep a kosher home. She did
observe Jewish holidays, but it was very difficult to keep a kosher home.
She's a very practical woman, and I don't think, she could see the
impracticality of it all. She does enjoy good cooking, and she makes the
best potato latkes in the world. My kids, and their cousins, love those
potato latkes my Mom makes. And even now when we go there, typically around
Christmas time, when she closes the store on a Saturday, she goes home, and
grates the potatoes by hand, after having worked in the store the whole
day, at 75 years old, and makes those potato latkes that are the best in
the world.

Wabnik: You're making my mouth water.

Lehman: She makes a mean chicken soup, too.

(Laughter)

Wabnik: I have a few more questions for you. I know that you said your
father had moved you to Phoenix to try to get a good Jewish education for
you and now you're back in Duncan and your getting older...

Lehman: Right.

Wabnik: ... and getting closer to Bar Mitzvah age. What's beginning to
happen now in terms of a formalized Jewish education?

Lehman: Okay. The solution that they came up with was, both for my brother
and me, that, I was Bar Mitzvahed in January of 1957, at Beth El, which at
that time was at 3rd Avenue and McDowell, it's now a pawn shop. Starting in
about, well starting with that school year, September of '56, they boarded 
me out with a family that I did not know, Mr. and Mrs. Abe Burns, on, at 74 
W. Encanto. Abe was the butcher for years and years at Gross Delicatessen on
North Central until it closed a few years ago. And they were members of Beth
El Congregation and I guess the way it happened was that my parents made 
these arrangements through the congregation and had asked the rabbi or the 
cantor or somebody if there was a good Jewish family that I could live with 
and they came up with the Burns family. In any event, they boarded me out 
with the Burns family and I went to Grandview, not Grandview, I went to 
Kenilworth for seventh grade, and every afternoon after school, public 
school, I would walk over to Beth El and spend a couple of hours learning 
Hebrew with Cantor Rothstein who was a really neat old guy. And, I really 
didn't learn Hebrew, I memorized enough Hebrew to go through the Bar 
Mitzvah ceremony in January of '57.

Wabnik: Was your brother up with you now at this time also since he was
close in age...?

Lehman: My brother who was fourteen months younger did essentially the same
thing a year later. He lived with the Finkelstein family, Jack Finkelstein
family a little further west on Encanto, about 7th Avenue and Encanto, and
basically did the same drill.

Wabnik: That was real commitment on everybody's part, and a nice community
effort too to make sure that everything would continue.

Lehman: It was really nice because we met a lot of people we still know
today, and a lot of people were very warm to us, for example I remember 
going to Hanukkah dinner at the Oserans, Howard Oseran who now lives in 
Tucson who was going through Bar Mitzvah training at the same time. Their 
were two, I can't remember which was which, but Howard (sic) and Izzie 
Oseran, one of which was his father and one of which was his uncle, they 
were very active in Beth El Congregation and they were very nice to me and, 
you know, I was kind of this semi-orphaned waif, and they had me over for 
Hanukkah dinner and it was very nice.

Wabnik: After you went back to Duncan, how did it feel having left what
must have seemed like a busy metropolis compared to Duncan?

Lehman: Actually, Phoenix didn't feel like a metropolis at that time. As I
said, we, five, six years earlier we had lived here and my brother and I
walked to school through that big field, it really didn't have the feeling
of a big metropolis at that time. I remember one time going back now, when
my brother and I decided we wanted to save a dime, at that time it cost a
dime to ride the bus, and for some reason my dad couldn't come and pick us
up after Sunday school one morning, he had a meeting or something to go to,
so we decided, he gave us a dime to ride the bus home. But we decided we
would save the dime, so we walked from Beth El at 3rd Avenue and McDowell
up to our house on 7th Avenue and Missouri. So that was a distance of what,
4 or 5 miles I guess, and we were only seven or eight years old. But I
remember walking up 7th Avenue, by now it's Sunday afternoon, must have
been a spring day, we walked past Arizona Downs, which was a big horse race
track which at that time was on 7th Avenue north of Osborn. So, what I'm
trying to say was the town didn't have the feeling of being a metropolis.

Wabnik: I was just wondering if comparatively speaking it seemed larger but
obviously the environment was still comfortable for you.

Lehman: Yeah, it really did I think.

Wabnik: That was an easy kind of change to make then. What then brought
your family back to Phoenix or what happened to you after you went back,
did you stay in Duncan, did you finish high school there and then go to
college and then what were some of the changes that you made?

Lehman: After the Bar Mitzvah I went back to Duncan and went through the
regular school system and graduated from Duncan High School in 1962 and
then went on to college at the U of A and law school at the U of A. And
going to high school was a fun kind of thing I think for me, because the
high school was less than 200 students, my high school graduating class was
44 and so we got to participate in everything. I was in the band, my sister
was in the band, I played football and basketball and it was the kind of
thing where if you didn't participate they didn't field a team and for
that, I've always thought that that was kind of a fortunate incident, going
to a real small high school so that you were really forced into
participation in all kinds of activities that you perhaps not, were you in
a larger environment, would not have the opportunity to participate in.

Wabnik: What instrument did you play in the band?

Lehman: Trombone, very poorly I might add.

Wabnik: Do you still play?

Lehman: No.

Wabnik: Well you've certainly covered all the bases, figuratively and
literally when you were in high school then. That's an interesting comment.
How did that affect you when you got to college? Did you find yourself
participating in more activities there as a result of that?

Lehman: That was an interesting kind of thing because when I went away to
college, oh I'm glad you asked that question. When I went away to college I
was, I didn't know what was in store for me because I graduated very high
academically, and I was a, I had a letter in football and basketball and I
was all conference in football, I had a long pedigree of activities and I
thought I was pretty hot stuff. And, I went away as a freshman to the
University of Arizona and went through rush, fraternity rush, and I was
shocked when I got three bids back, after the first round of rush. That was
the first time I found out that I was Jewish and that there was
discrimination in the world. And, so at that point, I found out why I was
not invited back to the Sigma Chi House and to the SAE house. A lot of them
later became very good friends of mine and still are today but it was
really one of my first encounters with the fact that I was Jewish and I was
being treated differently perhaps than other people.

Wabnik: Did it strike you as odd that here you were on a university campus
which should have been a more enlightened part of the world in the way most
people would look at the world and yet here was your first encounter?

Lehman: I don't think I had that thought at the time but now I do, yes.

Wabnik: Did you do anything about it at the time or did you choose to work
within the small group and just ignore the situation?

Lehman: I think I probably just chose to ignore it. Not really knowing how
to deal with it, just resigning myself to the reality and the reality was I
felt real comfortable with the group of young men with whom I became
affiliated which was the Tau Delta Phi Fraternity, which is now defunct but
at that time was very active on the University of Arizona campus and they
were a great bunch of guys there.

Wabnik: Did you find as you went through school that some of the
discrimination and the attitudes changed that you had ways of dealing with
it and that as people were around more Jewish people they changed in the
way they treated you?

Lehman: Oh, I don't know and I can't, and when you say treated me, I'm real
slow to call anything discriminatory, 'cause I think I performed very well,
I did well academically, I became a President of every group I was a member
of, including the inter-fraternity council, I was the Chairman of the rush
my Senior year, and I ran for Student Body President of the University of
Arizona at the end of my Junior Year and came within a whisker of winning
that election.

Wabnik: You're right, then there's no real discrimination in terms of what
opportunities or attitudes were there for you.

Lehman: There really weren't and I guess the other thing that was happening
at the time, of course we're now in the early sixties, is there was a great
wave of, of social activity on the part of young college students in the
Kennedy years and the same was true at the University of Arizona and my
fraternity was one of the first ones to really break down those barriers.
We had a couple of black members for example, and we had non-Jewish
members, and so ours was really the most, the best integrated fraternity on
the campus at the University of Arizona although the nucleus was Jewish.

Wabnik: Did you find yourself taking part in a lot of the activities that
were going on in terms of the '60s now, politically?

Lehman: I would say so yes, to the extent that those things were happening
at the University of Arizona, which is traditionally a fairly conservative
campus. I would say yes. For example, in 1968, when Eugene McCarthy ran for
the Presidency on the anti-Vietnam plank so to speak, several of us were
very involved in his campaign. After it became clear that Bobby Kennedy
wasn't going to run, then Eugene McCarthy came along and we became very
enthusiastic because we saw that as a way of expressing our antiwar
sentiment. And I stayed active in it even after Bobby Kennedy decided, 
after he saw Eugene McCarthy's success.

End of Side 1

(Long lead) Side 2

Wabnik: Okay, I think we can continue now.

Lehman: Okay, where were we?

Wabnik: We were talking about your experiences at the University of Arizona
and the attitudes and the success that you had there, with what you had
done. Did any of the political involvement that you had as well as the
Judaic tradition that you have affect your decision to become an attorney?

Lehman: Probably did, although not consciously. I just kind of motated (?)
to the law. I remember when I matriculated I thought I wanted to be a
doctor but after about a week of cutting up frogs I said hey, this isn't
for me, as a freshman. So, what do you when you have a liberal arts degree
in political science, you go to law school.

Wabnik: Did you find when you finished law school that you were, your
decision to stay in Arizona just came very easily to you and that was the
reason that you also went to school here?

Lehman: Yeah, it was almost by default. I'm not even sure we even
considered anything else. And I think if I were growing up today I might be
a little bit more aware and conscious of other alternatives that were
available, not that I regret it by any means, I don't, but there was really
never any thought. For example, graduating from little Duncan High School, 
with my academic record and extracurricular activities, if I'd had some 
counseling I might have been able to go to a Stanford, or a Duke, or a Yale,
or somewhere, not that I may or may not have wanted to, but the opportunity 
really never was squarely presented to me. I never knew such places existed
I don't mean that literally, but they seemed unattainable for me. If I were 
growing up today, maybe this is just with hindsight, knowing now what I now
know had I known it then, those things may have been something that would 
have been considered.

Wabnik: Did you find, when you finished law school and you began to get
involved in the practice of law, that you had particular people to whom you
turned within the Jewish community, or did you branch out from whatever you
heard from people in the law school.

Lehman: I would say branched out, if I understand your question correctly.
For example, when I first graduated, I was fortunate enough to be hired by
Judge Carl Muecke as his law clerk in the United States District Court.
Judge Muecke was a very fine judge, a liberal Democrat, who was appointed
by President Johnson to be a federal judge. Judge Muecke is still sitting
on the bench although he is now in judge emeritus status, Senior Judge
status, and he was a, he was something to watch, I'll tell you. I remember
one incident when, at that time, the sentence for criminal violation of the
smuggling statutes was five years mandatory minimum imprisonment. That was
for any substance whatsoever in any amount and there was no availability of
probation. The sentencing judge did not have the discretion to grant 
probation. And, it applied no matter what, for example, if a college kid 
was caught attempting to smuggle a, an ounce of marijuana or a joint of 
marijuana through the border, and was charged with smuggling and convicted 
of that offense, that was the punishment. Well, that was a little harsh for 
that kind of situation so typically what the U.S. attorneys were doing, in 
the instance of a young kid who was clean and no criminal record, they would
plea bargain it down to a lesser included offense, so the kid could get
probation and that would be the end of it. One day, we were in court, and
there was a prosecution of a young 19, 20 year old girl, college student,
who was from an exemplary family from California. She had been caught
coming through Nogales or somewhere with a small amount of marijuana and
she was represented by her father, who was an entertainment lawyer in
Beverly Hills. And, they were going to trial on this smuggling charge, and
the prosecutor was Mort Sitver who was a very fine Deputy United States
Attorney, who is now a United States Magistrate, and Mort had prosecuted
hundreds of these cases. And, I was in the courtroom acting as the bailiff,
and the young defendant and her lawyer, her father, were sitting there, the
jury had been selected and they were giggling with each other. And Judge
Muecke noticed it, and, he thought the whole thing was rather bizarre. So
he called a recess and we went into chambers and he saw what was going on
and he turned to the lawyer and said, "Listen, Mr. Sitver has told me that
he has offered your daughter the standard around here of dropping the 
smuggling charge if she'll agree to plea to a lesser included offense and 
that you've refused that. Do you understand that if your daughter is 
convicted here, and she will be it's a real open and shut kind of thing, I 
have no sentencing discretion. Your daughter is going to do five years in a 
federal penitentiary." He says "I can't let that happen. Your daughter is 
from a good family, she has no criminal record, she made a mistake, people 
like that get probation." He said, "you're either going to go out in open 
court and withdraw from the representation of your daughter and I'm going to
appoint a public defender to represent her, or I'll have you disbarred in 
California." And that's what happened is the guy had enough sense to 
withdraw. And so the deal went through, as it should. Anyway, ever since 
that time, I've had enormous respect for Judge Muecke because he 
demonstrated the kind of compassion and caring that I think a Federal Judge 
or any judge should while a lot of judges would have just let the thing 
happen in front of them and let it go. So, anyway, that was the kind of 
exposure I had I think to sensitive, intelligent, compassionate, caring 
human beings in the judiciary. I don't know if that answers any of your 
questions, but those are the kind of people that I had exposure to.

Wabnik: It's a big part of the portrait I think that begins to lead to some
of the things that you've been active in. I noticed that you're active in
the JCC.

Lehman: That's actually really more for the kids, who have swam for the
JCC, on the swim team since they were five years old.

Wabnik: Did you meet your wife at the University?

Lehman: Yes, we were both freshmen at the U of A. She was from Phoenix, her
family moved to Phoenix from Chicago in 1948, so she's been around for a
long time too.

Wabnik: You met down in Tucson, then?

Lehman: Right.

Wabnik: As freshmen?

Lehman: Right.

Wabnik: So that's been quite a while that you've both known each other
also...

Lehman: Oh yeah.

Wabnik: ... and have gone through a lot of aspects here and you're both
active in the Jewish community and to skip a lot of years at this point,
and bring us back to the group that's doing these oral interviews, you are
the founding chairman of this group. What was it that started you thinking
that this would be something you wanted to do?

Lehman: About ten or twelve years ago, I don't know why especially I got
charged up over Jewish history, and it may have been part of the fact that
I was getting a little older and by this time I was maybe in my mid-30s or
so, and I realized that I was unique, not that unique actually, but I'd had
a little bit of a different flavor, than the, I think the stereotyped Jew
who was, in any event, I think the catalytic event that started it was we
had some distant relatives, the Bendalins, who are here in town,
and Howard Bendalin, who's now in his mid-70s, is a wonderful man, and he
came over to this country also from the little town in Lithuania my
mother's from, Saudini, Lithuania. And Howard has become very successful,
and he is a real estate broker but he's also a farmer. He owns a farm out
in, north of Litchfield Park. And about ten or twelve years ago Howard came
to me and said, "Marshall, you know, Jews today are perceived as doctors
and lawyers and businessmen and..." he said "I'm a farmer." And I said
"well great. Now what do you want me to do about it?" And he said, "well, I
would like to do something to perpetuate Jews in agriculture and I want to
give scholarship money for Jewish kids who want to be farmers. And I want
you to set it up for me and organize it for me and find a way to do it and
do it in a tax deductible context." And I said "Okay, Howard, I'll do what
I can." But I said "I don't think you'll have any takers for this money."
He said "don't worry about that, I'll take care of that." And I said "Okay,
fine." So, off we went. And I got in touch with the University of Arizona,
a wonderful man named J.J. Humphrey. And, so, J.J. and I set this thing up
and one of our first problems was J.J.'s concern that the nature of the
entity would potentially create a discrimination problem for Title IX
funds, so called Title IX Federal funds for the University of Arizona. And
we went to Washington and got an opinion from the Attorney General's
office, or someone in the Department of Education that the awarding of
college scholarships to Jewish agricultural students would not
endanger their Title IX funds. Once that was done, we set the thing up, and
so now it's been in existence for about ten years or so, and J.J. and I are
on the Board of Directors along with Joe Escolata who is Howard's
son-in-law, who's a farmer, he's married to Howard's daughter and he runs
the farm out there. And we have the Dean of the College of Agriculture at
the U of A and his counterpart at ASU and several others. And, guess what,
we've been giving scholarship money to Jewish kids who want to be farmers.
And, we've done very well. Some of them have been Israelis, ah, some of
them have not. So if you know anybody who wants to be a Jewish farmer let
me know, we have scholarship money available. At any event, that focused me
on the fact that, here's a guy who's lived in Phoenix since the early '30s,
mid-30s who is a farmer, and most Jewish people are perceived as doctors
and lawyers and professionals, etcetera, and that we do everything, you
know, there are Jews active in all endeavors, in all walks of life. So that
was kind of the catalytic event that said, hey Marshall, somebody ought to
do something in an organized fashion to capture that history so that it is
not lost. And so I started about the business of forming the, what became
the Arizona Jewish Historical Society and that's how we sit here today. One
of the first things I did was I met with people, I just kind of got a feel
for what was going on and discovered that at that time, the American Jewish
Historical Society had been in existence for many years in Boston, Waltham,
and I contacted them, Bernard Wax who is the Executive Director and I think
he still is today, and he provided me with a great deal of information, was 
very helpful, and at that time I think there were something in excess of 30
local Jewish historical societies in all kinds of places, Ft. Wayne,
Indiana, Portland, Oregon, I expected okay yeah, you're going to find one
in New York and Philadelphia, but they were everywhere. And so we started
ours and one of the first things we did was we contacted people in Tucson
who were kind of locally involved and we got them more up and running, and
I got involved. At that time, the best focus in Phoenix was the Plotkin
Museum, Judaica Museum at Temple Beth Israel, and I became involved locally
and that was really one of the catalytic helpers of the formation of our
society of course. So that's how it happened.

Wabnik: Have you read any of the transcriptions of the interviews that have
been done already or have you not?

Lehman: I haven't seen any of them. I'd like to see them.

Wabnik: Yeah, the couple that I have looked at have been fascinating and
this is just something that really fills in a lot of gaps in terms of what
it's like, and as you said, with everybody doing so many different things
being able to get around the state and interview these people is a vital
part of the picture.

Lehman: There's, we had a meeting, that would have been in '81 or so, where
we had about 150 people come, who became signers of the Articles of
Incorporation of the Arizona Jewish Historical Society and that meeting was
in the Phoenix Art Museum auditorium. And it was a wonderful thing, we saw 
lots of people there, many old Phoenix families and Arizona families, the 
Lantins from Globe, and we had a lot of people sign the Articles of 
Incorporation from Tucson and so now we've been very successful I think in 
a fairly short time in doing what little we could do to help start 
preserving some of that history. I'm very pleased that the oral interview 
process is taking place to preserve some of it as well.

Wabnik: Do you see the Society expanding in the sense that one of the
things we were talking about briefly before was that some of the younger
people who are active in the community may for one reason or another choose
to leave or people who have come here within recent years and have become
active in various ways, do you see them becoming part of the oral history
soon or do you think that will take a longer period of time again.

Lehman: I think it will take a while, but I would love to see it happen and
I think it will happen, those things are happening.

Wabnik: Do you, I have one other question that I have been thinking about
which is, do you think at any time there might be a reason to interview
some of the teenagers while they are still at that age to hear their
attitudes and then if they reside in Phoenix, come back and interview them
again in twenty-five or thirty or forty years?

Lehman: I think that's fascinating, yeah, it's a great idea.

Wabnik: Okay. Well, do you have any extra comments that you would like to
add or any points that you think we've missed about what it was like
growing up here?

Lehman: I think we've sure covered the high points. There are a number of
other people that I think would be kind of fun to interview that are
contemporaries of mine, for example, Burk Rosenzweig, who's about my age, I
think interviewing Burk and finding out what life in Phoenix was like in
the '40s and '50s would be interesting. Um, has Jerry Lewkowitz been
interviewed?

Wabnik: I'm not sure, I would have to look at the list.

Lehman: I think Jerry's would be an interesting interview. He grew up as a
kid here, and Jerry's now what in his late 50s maybe I guess? And I think
his would be a most interesting interview. He's such a character anyway.
And I'm sure there are many, many others that could really be interesting.

Wabnik: And you mentioned Bill Mahoney as someone who has contributed a lot
of time and effort and also in terms of the Jewish community and been
affiliated and could still see things that have happened from someone who
is not Jewish. Do you have any other people that you would suggest that
you've known?

Lehman: Well Bill certainly would be an interesting interview. You, I think
Harry Rozenweig's already been interviewed, I'm sure he has. Um, I think a
person who would be real interesting to interview if she would let you do
it, probably not, is my aunt, Celia Belman, she's in California
unfortunately. She's in her early to mid '90s and she started that store in
Safford, Arizona probably in the teens I think, somewhere in the late teens
and could tell a lot of stories about life in a small town in Arizona.
Um, some other people from Safford, um, Rita Plotkin I think is her name,
Rita? Ralph and Rita Plotkin? Grew up in Safford, I think her maiden name
was Rita Segal, I could be mistaken. I got it all confused, her married
name is Rita Segal, okay, but she grew up in Safford and she's here in
town. She might be an interesting interview I think .

Wabnik: Okay.

Lehman: The Lantin girls who grew up in Globe, Lois Lantin Schiner lives
here in town...

Wabnik: ...and Linda.

Lehman: Linda, do you know Linda?

Wabnik: Yes, I also know Lois.

Lehman: Oh, okay, I don't know if they have been interviewed or not.

Wabnik: I'll find out.

Lehman: I think we've mentioned before we went on tape Terry.

Wabnik: Yes, Terry Swirnoff, who grew up in Ray.

Lehman: I remember when I was a kid and when I was playing basketball for
Duncan we played Benson, at that time Duncan played the likes of Clifton,
Thatcher, Tombstone, Wilcox, Benson, and sometimes Ray and Hayden, and I
remember going to play a basketball game in Benson, and I knew that there
was a Jewish girl in high school in Benson. And, boy I looked for her in
that audience, Joanie Samuels. Well, there's a kind of a cute little
anecdote. I didn't have a date with a Jewish girl until I was 18 years old
and my sister, Arlene, who taught school at that time in Phoenix,
fixed me up with a Jewish girl, whose name I don't remember at the moment,
but that was a real big event. And, I remember I was a , it was in January
of '62, and it just happened to coincide with my aunt who lived here in
Phoenix, gave me her car, she had gotten a new car and she owned this '51
Chevy two-door coupe, pink, and of course you know I'm 18 years old. And,
so, I was bound and determined that I was going to get that car. So, a
friend of mine, Mac McKeon was having a dental appointment in Phoenix and
his parents were bringing him to Phoenix, so, I asked if I could come and
they said sure so we started off to Phoenix, and it was January, and we got
to Globe and Miami and there was a snow storm. And they weren't letting
cars through the mountains between Miami and Superior. So we waited in
Miami for a while and the McKeon's finally decided, well, we'll just go
back home to Duncan. "What do you want to do, Marshall?", and I said "Well,
hey, when I get to the other side of the mountain there's a car waiting for
me and there's no way I'm going back without that car. So I'm going through
one way or another." So they left me in Miami and they were letting buses
through with chains so I went on the bus to Phoenix, and got my aunt's car
and went out that night for the first time with a Jewish girl.

Wabnik: Definitely persevered.

Lehman: The car was more important that the girl, I can assure you.

(Laughter)

Wabnik: Well, this has been wonderful. I hope if you have anything more
that you think of that you will call us and let us know and we can come 
back and interview you at another time.

Lehman: I will, it's been fun.

Wabnik: Good, thank you.

(Continues)

Lehman: When I was a kid my parents had this little store in Duncan which
was probably 30 or 40 feet wide by maybe 80 or 90 feet long, real tiny,
stacked to the ceiling with merchandise, and I remember most clearly on
Saturday afternoons when the, at this time, we talked I think earlier about
the "bracero" program, the Mormon farmers would bring their Mexican
braceros into town to shop. You know, they got paid at noon on Saturday and
they would come into Duncan and there were times when that store was full
of people, wall to wall. And, I was maybe 7, 8, 10 years old, whatever, and
I just remember my parents speaking English to the Mormon farmers and
broken Spanish, just enough Spanish to ask or to tell how much something
cost, "cuesta doce dolares", or "Que quiere?", what do you want, or "Que
numero?" what size, just the Spanish of the clothing store. But to each
other spoke Yiddish, and that was their way of communicating with each
other so nobody else would know what they were saying. And it was, I very
vividly remember that, in, I just get a kick out of thinking about it.

Wabnik: Do you speak both Yiddish and Spanish?

Lehman: Spanish, como nativo, Yiddish, I just don't speak it but I can
understand it, especially when it's the idiom of somebody that I am used
to, like my mother. Maybe when somebody else is speaking it I would have a 
hard time picking it up although if I spent enough time I think I could.

Wabnik: We almost forgot to talk about the floods, we have to fill this in.

Lehman: Okay, yeah. I'm glad you reminded me. Duncan is in the upper Gila
Valley and is on the banks of the Gila River which winds through town and
it was always kind of a peaceful little setting. But for some reason the
Gila River has, in later years, taken on some strange activity and has
flooded the town, I think three times in the past twenty years or so. And,
what years has it been? Well there was a big flood in 1972, which flooded
the town and there was about four feet of water in my mother's store, water
and mud, and the loss of the bulk of the inventory. And, then in 198...,78,
there was a second flood, which was also about the same size, both times
the inventory was pretty much destroyed. And as a result of those two
floods, the town has been probably cut about in half in population, and
some of the people have, the ones who remain, have moved up onto the hills
around where the valley where the town proper is. But the floods have also
brought the people together too, the ones who remain. For example, I
remember after both floods I've gone over there to help my family clean out
the store. The people just rally around each other and help clean up the
problem. I think it was after the '78 flood, probably in both actually,
Allan Day, whose family owns the famous Lazy Day Ranch and whose sister,
Sandra Day O'Connor is a United States Supreme Court Justice, she grew up 
there in Duncan. Allan came with his high velocity water pressure equipment 
that they use to clean animals, pigs and cattle with, and it shoots a real, 
it's like a fire hose, and it shoots a high velocity stream of water and he 
came with that to the store and he worked like a dog for days cleaning the 
store and driving the real fine silt out. So those kinds of experiences 
really drive people together. Then in 1983, right after the '82 flood I 
guess it was, my mother's house got hit by what can only be described as a
mini-tornado, it may not have technically been a tornado, but it was
certainly a high velocity wind and it took the roof off. That house had
been flooded in the '72 and '78 floods and notwithstanding the two floods
and the tornado, my mom's indomitable spirit has prevailed and she has
built herself a new home, up higher, probably fifteen feet higher, and she
lives there with my brother now, and that one is up on the side of the
hill, and if that house was ever flooded, you could probably kiss Phoenix
goodbye too because that would be an awful lot of water to come down the
river.

Wabnik: Your brother still lives in Duncan. Is he there with his family
also?

Lehman: Steve is single, he is, as I said earlier on the tape, is the
Justice of the Peace in the Duncan precinct and raises his thoroughbred
horses.

Wabnik: I think both your mother and your brother would be interesting
interviews.

Lehman: Yeah, I think they'd be fun and maybe we could arrange that
sometime when they came to Phoenix, because they come from time to time.

Wabnik: We would appreciate that.

Lehman: Yeah, that would be kind of fun.

Wabnik: Terrific.

Lehman: Okay, we can do that.

Wabnik: Thank you.

		[end of Interview]