..inte: Saul Lebeau ..intr: Bobbi Kurn ..da: 1988 ..cp: Saul Le Beau (far right) at Camp Le Beau, ca. 1985 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Saul Lebeau April 11, 1988 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Bobbi Kurn Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Saul Lebeau Interview Pages 1 Mom's parents Goldberg 1 Family 1 Dad's parents Abrahams 2 Dad Joseph Leibovitz 2 Mom Kattie 3 1927 L.A. and San Diego 4 Phoenix Henry Lesem 4 1934 4 B'nai Brith Lou Samuels Meyersons 6 Meyerson's son Jack Sam Straus Mal Straus Morris Meckler 10 1938 Allen Rosenberg 10 B'nai Brith Izzy & Al Oseran Arnold Smith Harry Liebhaber Riverside Ballroom Herman Lewkowitz Irv Diamond Al Gottlieb 13 Hebrew Men's Club Morris Gerst 17 Poker games 18 Movie site Cudia City Al Wild Joe Ramras Tovrea Hank Bland 20 Beginning of camp Lebeau Jack Kempner Al Gottlieb 21 Late 30's Ted Pozil 21 YMCA Camp Nat Silverman Joe Gross 21 Directors Jack Kempner Al Gottlieb Ben & Joe Gross 22 Federation Phil Polk Bookbinder Welcher Jerry Gross Ted Kort Jerry Smith Irv Satz 28 Camp Covenant 28 Camp Teva Art Kaufman 30 Mid 30's Daniel Gordon Rabbi Krohn 31 1939 Beth Israel Rabbi Jaffa 32 Jewish Comm. Michael Wichansky 34 Printing job Stan Clem Henry Steinberg Sam Straus 38 Phoenix Jewish News Buddy Goldman 40 Beth El Board Wolf Serlin Harry Hoffman 41 Minyan Al Whitefield Harry Whitefield 45 Cleaning Co. Ben Costantin Biltmore 47 Phoenix after war 48 Phoenix helps Saul 49 Bank loans Valley National 50 Air conditioning Arnold Smith Rosenbergs Saul Lebeau interview This is Bobbi Kurn. I'm a member of the Phoenix Jewish Historical Society and I am interviewing Saul Lebeau. LEBEAU: Who is a member of the Phoenix Jewish Historical Society. KURN: Right. And today is April 11, 1988. I'm interviewing him in my home, which is 7151 North 15th Street, Phoenix. We shall begin. Thank you for coming. LEBEAU: You're welcome. Thank you for asking me. KURN: Dipping into your past. LEBEAU: Oh, that's not good. KURN: Buyer beware. Let's get some names out on the table. Your mother's parents' names? LEBEAU: Goldberg. KURN: Okay. First names? LEBEAU: Don't know them. KURN: Okay. Your father's parents? LEBEAU: Don't know them. KURN: Remember the name Lebeau? LEBEAU: No. My father's parents' name was Abrahams. KURN: Last name was Abrahams? LEBEAU: A-b-r-a-h-a-m-s. KURN: Okay. The Goldbergs lived where? LEBEAU: They all lived in Romania. My father came over to this country first and then brought my mother over. They were not married then; they got married here. KURN: And your dad's name? LEBEAU: Joseph. KURN: Last name? LEBEAU: Well, it was changed to Lebeau. When he came to America he had a half-brother living here who sponsored him. His half-brother's name was Leibovitz. KURN: Spelled? LEBEAU: L-e-i-b-o-v-i-t-z. And when he came through customs not speaking English and afraid of a new country and afraid if he gave his correct name they wouldn't let him in, he took his half-brother's last name and went under the name of Leibovitz all the time he was here. Eventually, in about 1932 or '33 it was changed to Lebeau in San Diego, California. KURN: I wonder where he found Lebeau. LEBEAU: It's an abbreviation of Leibovitz. KURN: He felt that was a better name than -- LEBEAU: How do I know what he felt, Bobbi? KURN: That's interesting. Okay. Your mom's maiden name was Goldberg? LEBEAU: Yes. KURN: And your mom's first name is? LEBEAU: Katie. KURN: Okay. And how did Katie and Joseph meet? LEBEAU: They grew up together back in Romania. They were kids together. So when Dad came to this country and got established he sent for Mom and brought her over and married her. KURN: How did he live when he first came? LEBEAU: He was a barber. He learned his trade back in Europe. So he barbered all of his life. Barbered, pulled teeth, led people, all the things the barbers did in those good old days. KURN: What years would those have been? LEBEAU: I don't know. They would have to be from around the early 1900's. KURN: What city were they in? LEBEAU: When he came to the United States we lived in Pittsburgh, and that's where I was born. Then, eventually, we moved to California. KURN: Because? LEBEAU: Well, I don't think any specific reason. It was just that we came out to visit some relatives out there and liked it so much that we decided to move. We lived both in Los Angeles and then in San Diego - kind of switched between the two. In fact, I did all of my schooling in San Diego. KURN: What year did they come out to California? LEBEAU: I would say somewhere around -- wait a minute, I do know - it was 1927, because I remember I was bar mitzvahed -- or not bar mitzvahed, but I became 13 when we lived in Los Angeles. I never went through a bar mitzvah ceremony because my mom was back East trying to sell the house and my dad was out here trying to make a living and I was in between. So, it made it interesting. I still haven't been bar mitzvahed. KURN: Look out. You may be someday. LEBEAU: No. That doesn't mean anything. Everybody is a bar mitzvah, as I understand it, when they reach 13, whether they have a ceremony or not. A boy, when he reaches 13 and a girl, when she reaches 12. Did you know that? KURN: Yes. LEBEAU: I thought I was teaching her something. KURN: Tell me your first remembrance of Phoenix or Arizona. LEBEAU: I came to Phoenix for my health from San Diego by bus in 1934. I arrived here Labor Day, give or take a day. I got off the bus into a blast furnace, like most people that moved to Phoenix - hot boy, was it hot, I knew nobody here. The only tie I had with Phoenix was a letter from the secretary of the B'nai B'rith Lodge in San Diego to the secretary of the B'nai Brith Lodge here, who was at that time Henry Lesem, L-e-s-e-m. Henry, at that time, was administrator at the State Hospital in Papago Park for tubercular patients. Henry was the secretary of the Phoenix Lodge. I called Henry and introduced myself, told him who I was and that I'd come to Phoenix and would like to meet some people. He asked me my age and so forth. KURN: How old were you? LEBEAU: 20 years old. And he suggested that I call Lou Samuels, S-a-m-u-e-l-s. Lou Samuels, at that time, was the president of the Hebrew Men's Club. Lou worked for the Boston Store downtown, so I went down and met Lou the first time I had a chance and Lou sent me over to see -- he asked me where I was living and I told him I had a bed in a little hotel on Central and Roosevelt and he sent me over to the Meyersons, who lived on North 2nd Street, just north of Van Buren. I rented a room from them and lived with them for quite awhile. KURN: Can you picture what Phoenix looked like then? Can you describe it? LEBEAU: Oh, yes, sure. When I called Henry and he invited me out to his house for the weekend - they were having a barbeque - he lived on one of the streets between Roosevelt and McDowell. I had to ask six people before I found somebody that knew where it was. The city stopped, for all intents and purposes, at Roosevelt, although there were houses clear out to McDowell and a little past, even. It went from about 7th Street to 7th Avenue. That was the hub. There were only 40,000 people in the city then, if that many. It was a nice, small town. I enjoyed it very much - much more than I do now, to tell you the truth, because everybody knew everybody. You couldn't walk a half a block without meeting somebody you knew. It was a small town, but unfortunately it grew until it's become a big town like it is now. KURN: So your first job in Phoenix was doing what? LEBEAU: My first job in Phoenix was washing dishes at a restaurant in the hotel I was staying at 12 hours a day, 6 days a week for my meals. KURN: Really? LEBEAU: Yeah . Then on Sunday I mowed lawns and washed cars to make enough to pay for my room. I arrived in Phoenix, if I remember right, and the reason I came to Phoenix may be a little peculiar, too. KURN: I'd be curious to know. LEBEAU: My doctor recommended that I get out of San Diego because I was having trouble with my asthma and we asked him, "Where do you recommend that I go?" He says, "Well, I can't tell you because I don't know." He says, "Just go somewhere and stay there a few days and if you feel fine, okay. If you don't, just go somewhere else. Go to Denver, go to New Mexico, go to Arizona, go to Texas, anywhere you want to go." So, at that time I had the total sum of $20 and I went down to the bus station, because I was too stubborn to ask my parents for help. I went down to the bus station and the bus fare between San Diego and Phoenix was $5 even. So I figured that's a good place to go. So I came to Phoenix, had $15 left. The bus station, when I arrived, was on 1st Street south of Jefferson and I just walked north on Central, because that looked like a big street. I found this little hotel and restaurant, shops and stuff, so I got myself a room there. Then when I moved in with the Meyersons, of course, I became acquainted with a lot of the different people who were in Phoenix at that time, gradually. KURN: Now, why did they invite you to come stay there? LEBEAU: They were running a boarding house, so I rented a room. I had dinners there with them too, if I remember right. I had a room and dinners -- no, I just had a room, because I was eating my meals at the restaurant. So I rented a room and I forget how much it was but it was very, very reasonable. The Meyersons had three children; they had a son, Jack Meyerson and they had two daughters. I forget their names now. Through them I met a lot of the people my age. Phoenix was, like I say, a very small town. on Saturdays - every Saturday , rain or shine - the Indians would come in and they would spread their blankets on Washington Street right next to the buildings and they would display their jewelry that they had made, turquoise, silver, and they would sit there and sell it. KURN: I didn't know that. LEBEAU: They would nurse their babies right there - no problem. Didn't embarrass them, didn't embarrass anybody else. But, every Saturday, religiously you could go downtown and from Washington Street to 2nd Street, particularly from Washington Street to 1st Street on the north side of the street, there would be solid Indian women with their handmade jewelry that they were selling and their turquoise. It was very cheap then - I wish I'd have bought a bunch of it. KURN: You didn't have any money. LEBEAU: That's true. And speaking of not having any money - the first Mother's Day that I was here I did not have any money and I wanted to buy a gift for my mom and send it to her for Mother's Day. Somebody that I was talking to said, "Why don't you go into Daniel's Jewelry and talk to Sam Straus." Now, I had never met Sam. They said, "Sam's a nice guy. Talk to him. He'll help you." KURN: Straus is? LEBEAU: S-t-r-a-u-s. That's Mal Straus's older brother. I went in and I introduced myself to Sam and told him what I wanted and he says, "Well, pick out whatever you want." I says, "You mean, it's all right?" He says, "Sure. Pay me whatever you can. " "I says, "Well, I can pay you a dollar a week." At that time I had my first job and I was earning, if I remember right, $10 a week. So I paid him a dollar a week for five weeks. I bought a manicure set, I still remember, and sent it to my mom. But the people were very nice. Morris Meckler had his pawn shop down there. Mr. Reiter - that's Pearl Newmark's dad - had a little jewelry store on Washington. I guess it was more of a jewelry store than anything else. Allen Rosenberg owned Thrifty Drug between Central and 1st on Washington. You'd go downtown and meet people all the time because it was so concentrated. That's the way it worked. When Reva and I got married in 1939 we got married at Beth Israel at 122 East Culver Street. There were 300 Jewish families in Phoenix and we sent out 300 invitations. KURN: What year was that? LEBEAU: 1939. KURN: I love the story of how you met her. LEBEAU: Well, that I don't know whether I want to tell on this. You may want to, but -- KURN: It was a wonderful story. LEBEAU: Well, I guess I can. I'm not ashamed of it. I used to do, in those days, a substantial amount of drinking. One evening I was invited to a party and in those days not everybody had cars like now. You know, if you've got one car six, eight kids piled into it. I'd gotten off of work about 4:00 and I'd been drinking for a couple hours and I'd had quite a bit to drink, I guess. They picked me up and we went out to pick up Reva. I didn't know her then but that's where we were going. We were going to pick her up and then we were going out to a party in Sunnyslope. I was pretty well under the weather and she hated it. She wouldn't have anything to do with me. All night long I tried to get her to dance and every time I'd come over to her she'd move away. So the next day I went out to see her -- now I'm going to have to regress a little bit. When I first started working I had a job in a print shop that paid me $10 a week. Then I worked at a Safeway store down on, I think it was 3rd Street and Washington or 2nd Street and Washington - 3rd, I think. I got $3 for working a 12-hour day down there. My dad had had several markets on the coast and I'd helped him when I was much younger. So when they found out I was, quote, 'experienced', unquote, the manager put me in charge of the produce department at the store. Now, in those days you didn't help yourself like you do now. You got waited on. Well, her mother- her dad was sick and he would drive them down but he would stay in the car. I never met him. But her mother would come in and shop and when she found out I knew what a 10-cent soup mix was then she was in seventh heaven and no one could wait on her but me. So I waited on her for quite awhile. One day she found out I was Jewish. Then, of course, right away she told me she has a nice Jewish girl for me. I said, "How old is she?" She lied a little bit. I think Reva was 15 at the time, she said, 'She's 16." I said, "Well, when she grows up I'll come out to see you." Then I forgot about it. So, this day after the party I drove up, walked into the house -- in those days you did not lock your doors, nobody did -- so I opened up the door and walked in and here's Reva standing on a chair or a table and her mother is pinning a hem up on a skirt or something for her. Well, she let out a scream because she was in her slip - a kind of a slip or something - and took off like you know what. I turned to her mother and said, "Well, I told you I'd come back." So, that was how I met her. KURN: This was what year? LEBEAU: This had to be in '39, early part of '39, because we got married in -- no, it was in the latter part of '38, because we got married on March the 12th, 1939. We knew each other six months before we got married. KURN: If we can regress a little bit - I'm really interested also in those years between '34 and '38 - what kinds of things you did, who was around? LEBEAU: We had some activity. One of the first things I did when I moved to town, of course, was join the B'nai B'rith. I had been in AZA in San Diego and, of course, it was logical to join B'nai B'rith. I was also no, I was invited later. There was a group of young people Izzy and Al Oseran. KURN: Izzy? LEBEAU: Yeah, and Al Oseran. I'm trying to think of names - they evade me for the minute. There were about 8 of us that used to see each other pretty much. We all went in a group. There was no such thing as dating, per se, then. First of all, like I say, nobody had cars. on weekends we used to go out to Tempe Beach, which was the only swimming pool around here. KURN: Where was that? LEBEAU: Right across the bridge in-Tempe. Down to your right was the swimming pool and a little picnic grounds. We all went out there and spent the day out there. Arnold Smith was in that group; Harry Liebhaber. As these names come back to me I'll try and give them to you. KURN: Right. LEBEAU: But we'd all go out there and then we would get together at different people's houses or we'd go places together. It was just a general party. There was no pairing up necessarily. It was just a group. KURN: These would be high school age people, college age? LEBEAU: No. just right after high school - very few of us went to college. KURN: Young adults, young 20's? LEBEAU: Yeah. Basically, that was it - work, eat, sleep, took part in a few athletics. Most of us played ball. KURN: Just on the street? LEBEAU: Yeah, playgrounds. You know, we'd get together and have softball games and various other things. Like I say, we'd go out and we'd party and we'd dance. Occasionally, if we had something special to celebrate we would go to the Riverside Ballroom. KURN: Which was? LEBEAU: Well, the Riverside Ballroom was on South Central just across the bridge over the Salt River. It was a little rough, even at that time, but our parents -- their parents (I didn't have any parents here so I could do whatever I wanted) -- but most of the parents would allow the girls to go if there was a group, not just a date. So we'd go down there and dance if we wanted to dance. Occasionally, we would go out to the Amazona Hall, which was out in Mesa where they had a dance once a week and we would dance out there. But you usually worked most of the time, eat, sleep, socialize occasionally when you had a chance. KURN: Did you socialize with non-Jews? Was there much activity with non-Jewish people? LEBEAU: Bobbi, I can't remember too much socializing with non-Jews here. I did in San Diego. In fact, I used to have quite a few discussions with my parents about it, because they wanted me to, I guess, limit my socializing with (to) Jewish friends and I refused. I was a rebel even in those days. I said, "No, I've got a lot of non-Jewish friends and I like them and you like them." They did, because I'd bring them over to the house all the time, they were very nice kids. I says, "I'm not going to cut off my relationship with my friends just because they're not Jewish. It's not that important to me." Here, I didn't have an opportunity to meet too many non-Jewish people, at first. So I spent most of my time with the young Jewish crowd. Basically, I don't remember too much about those years. I spent a lot of my personal time with older people, maybe because I had an older outlook than a lot of these kids living at home. So, I became very friendly with people like Herman Lewkowitz. KURN: How does he spell that? LEBEAU: L-e-w-k-o-w-i-t-z. KURN: They were married. LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. They were the big shots in B'nai B'rith, so I would spend some time with them. Irv Diamond, Al Gottlieb. KURN: How do you spell that? LEBEAU: G-o-t-t-l-i-e-b, I think. Morris Gerst. These were all people who were a little older than I was, but they were all active in B'nai B'rith which is where I joined. I would attend as many of the B'nai B'rith affairs as I possibly could. KURN: Tell me more about B'nai B'rith in those early days, what it did, what it was like. LEBEAU: In those days there were two social organizations in town - B'nai B'rith and Hebrew Men's Club, HMC. B'nai B'rith met the second and fourth Tuesday of each month. HMC met the first and third. So every Tuesday night we had something to do. The rest of the week was open. Nowadays, every night is taken and sometimes there are three and four meetings a night. But in those days there was just the one and, basically, it was the typical B'nai B'rith business which was, you know, the various things that B'nai Brith did. Then we would have a card game afterwards. When I joined HMC, which was about 1940, I think it was, or '41, then I would play cards there. So once a week we had a social meeting and a card game. KURN: Where would you meet with these organizations? LEBEAU: Well, I forget where we met. We usually met at a hall, either at the Temple or somewhere. I don't remember. It wasn't at people's houses. Although, HMC occasionally did. But most of the time we met at the same place too, I just can't remember whether it was Temple Beth Israel or where. Incidentally, when I first came to town Reva's dad was a member of the board at Beth El, which was on 4th Street and Polk, I think, right across from St. Joseph's Hospital which was on 4th Street. So after we got married I began to go to Beth El rather than Beth Israel. KURN: What was the purpose of the Hebrew Men's Club? LEBEAU: Purely social. Absolutely. Until the end of its era the Hebrew Men's Club did nothing for nobody. All we did was have a good time. KURN: Dances? LEBEAU: Yom Kippur dance every year we sponsored. KURN: For the whole community? LEBEAU: Yeah. We would have picnics, primarily for the members and their families. It was a social group, primarily so that the families would have things to do and places to go. We had, I think, two or three picnics a year, usually at South Mountain, weenie roasts and things like that. We'd get down there early enough to pick up sides and play ball for awhile and then have hot dogs or hamburgers or something like that. And the little kids would play. Most of the people in the club had children at that time. KURN: Was it affiliated with any of the congregations? LEBEAU: No. Totally independent. KURN: Did they have fund raising? LEBEAU: No. Never had any money because we didn't need money. KURN: Did you have officers? LEBEAU: Yeah, picked officers every year. I was president one year. KURN: Did you do any charity work? LEBEAU: No, nothing. It was purely social and it was organized and existed for the sole purpose of giving the members some relaxation, and we needed it in those days. KURN: All ages? LEBEAU: Not really, although we had quite a range in age. I was one of the youngest members when I got in in my, I would say, middle 20's. I think the oldest members at that time were probably in their 40's. KURN: Then they tended to drop out? LEBEAU: Well, the club became unnecessary after awhile. There were so many different organizations that started up that you could belong to and do things with that it wasn't necessary anymore, so it just kind of dissolved of its own. It still owes Dean Davidson $1,800.00. KURN: You owe? LEBEAU: The club does. KURN: The club owes somebody money? LEBEAU: Yeah. KURN: How come? LEBEAU: Dean Davidson was the first member in the club to have a grandchild and somebody made a motion to appropriate $18 to buy a present for his grandchild. Someone else got up because we'd never done anything like this - and said, "I don't know why you want to buy something for $18; why don't we just buy something for $180?" We had no money in the treasury at that time, you have to know. So I got up and I says, "Well, why be a piker about it? We don't have $18, we don't have $180. I'd like to amend the motion that we give him $1,800." So that passed, and we still owe it to him. He never got a dime. KURN: And no women were ever members? LEBEAU: No. Those were the days when we didn't have to have joint membership. KURN: Careful, careful. You're on shaky ground. LEBEAU: No, no, I'm not. You want to know what happened and that's what I'm telling you. I'm not saying it was good or bad. I'm just saying that's the way it was. KURN: So they didn't come to the meetings. LEBEAU: Oh, no. But we had a lot of parties, HMC did, and dances. Cecil Newmark and Phil Newmark were members. They were charter members, I think. KURN: So, when did it start? LEBEAU: Oh, it started before I got here, because it was in existence. It started a few years before I got here because, I think, Lou Samuels was the second or third president, so it must have started about two or three years before I got here. KURN: Did religion play a part at all? LEBEAU: Not in HMC. It was all Jewish, but we never did anything religious. KURN: But you'd have Yom Kippur events? LEBEAU: We'd have a big Yom Kippur dance which we sponsored for the whole community. KURN: Great dance, great dance (?). LEBEAU: Yeah. It was a traditional thing, the whole community came. KURN: Like how many people would come? LEBEAU: Several hundred. We would furnish the place and the music. We never furnished any refreshments, because we couldn't afford it, I don't imagine. What we used to do in order to create a treasury to do some of these things with, is we used to cut the poker games, see? Just like they do in Vegas. We cut so much off of every hand and threw it in the treasury so we would have enough money to do these things with. KURN: Pennies? Nickels? LEBEAU: No. I think, if I remember rightly, when we first started playing it was a quarter limit. Nickel ante and quarter limit. After the war it became a quarter ante and a dollar limit game. KURN: Approximately how many men would you say were members at that time? LEBEAU: At any one time I would say in the neighborhood of 30 to 40. KURN: Okay. LEBEAU: We had some beautiful initiations that were fantastic. KURN: Come on. LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. KURN: Like? LEBEAU: We used to try and have initiation once a year. We had one at the Westward Ho one time where we got a waiter to heckle Dean Davidson. We put Dean on the end of a row and every time the waiter went by he had a towel in his hand and he would drag it over Dean's head. First couple times he'd, you know -- Then they served the meal and he served Dean his meal - I think it was roast beef or something - and on everybody else's plate there was roast beef and a baked potato and stuff. On Dean's plate there was nothing but roast beef. Dean says, "Where's my potato?" The fellow says, "Oh, I forgot' and reached in his pocket and took out a potato and put it on his plate - just crazy things like that. One of our more memorable initiations was one year when we initiated a group out at Cudia City. KURN: Where's that? LEBEAU: Cudia City was an old movie set out at 40th and Camelback where -- what's the name of that restaurant? It's right near there. The restaurant is now a Mexican restaurant, but it used to be a very nice restaurant steakhouse, nice salad bar. KURN: How do you spell -- LEBEAU: Cudia was C-u-d-i-a. He had a little place where they used to shoot movies once in a while, Western movies. So we had the deal out there. Now, one of the fellows in charge of the initiation was Al Wild, W-i-l-d. He now lives in Las Vegas. One of the gags was that Joe Ramras had gone by Tovrea's packing plant -- KURN: Toby's? LEBEAU: Tovrea, T-o-v-r-e-a -- out on East Washington and picked up some testicles from a bull that had been slaughtered and brought them down. Then the gag was that Hank Bland, who is no longer with us, B-l-a-n-d, they put him on a table and we put a sheet, a shadow type of thing. They were supposed to operate on him and then they were going to come out with a tray with this deal on it, see. Al Wild told him, he said, "Hank, you lay here and don't worry. Nothing's going to happen to you. Just lay here." Well, Hank couldn't stand it. Al had a big mallet and on the screen it was going to show him hitting him on the head as anesthetic. Well, Hank raised his head up just in time to get hit. So, we had a little excitement. Hank had to have a couple of stitches taken, threatened to sue the club - nothing ever happened, of course. KURN: Did you turn down anybody who wanted to join? LEBEAU: I think they did, originally. Once they took me in they had no reason to. That broke the whole thing open. KURN: They did blackball though, originally? LEBEAU: I don't know. I think so, because you could not join unless you were asked. I remember being asked and I felt, well, I don't know whether I want to join or not. Maybe this is not the type of organization I want to belong to. KURN: What kind of reputation did it have? LEBEAU: It had a good reputation, but I don't like to belong -- I feel a lot like Jack Benny, you know. I don't think I want to join any organization that will have me. KURN: Did he live in Phoenix? (?) LEBEAU: Yeah. Evidently they screened their members pretty close. They wanted to have a good close club. Once I got in there was no blackballing that I can ever remember. Sometimes we would talk about somebody and say, well, he's not the type of person we want in the club. We'd just never invite him. But it wasn't too bad. KURN: In those days was B'nai B'rith involved with Anti-Defamation League and the kids' group, AZA? LEBEAU Oh, yes. All of them. AZA, BBG, Anti-Defamation. In fact, Camp Lebeau was originally started by HMC Club. Now, the HMC club had no projects and did no work. one day, the group decided that they wanted to take a bunch of kids up to camp for the summer -- for a week. So they appointed a committee. The committee was composed of Jack Kempner, K-e-m-p-n-e-r, Al Gottlieb, Ted Pozil, Nat Silverman and Joe Gross and myself. So, we leased the YMCA camp for a week after their session was through, just like we do at camp Rainbow. KURN: What year would that have been, approximately? LEBEAU: Good question. How old's my daughter? I can tell you in a minute. She was born in 1940; she is now 48. About 40 years ago, 40, 41 years ago. KURN: So that would have been 19 -- LEBEAU: 40, 41. Before that even. That was before the war and the war broke out in '41. So it had to be late 30's. So, we leased it for a week and took a bunch of kids up. It was very successful. KURN: Boys and girls? LEBEAU: Yes. We took about 80 kids up. KURN: 80 Jewish kids? LEBEAU: Yeah. It worked out very well. I think our first camp director was Jack Kempner the first year. The second year I acted as camp director. The third year it was Al Gottlieb. We had it for three years. After the third year at one of our meetings - it was so successful that we decided, the club decided, that they would like to sponsor a camp, a Jewish camp. The problem, of course, was when we would go up to YMCA camp we didn't have a big organization so we would hire their staff to handle it. They would want to have Sunday services and all that which we wouldn't have. We felt that it would be nice to have a camp with some Yiddishkite. So, a committee composed of Ben and Joe Gross, Nat Silverman, Ted Pozil and myself were appointed to find a camp. We made quite a few trips around the state to find the right place until the place in Prescott where Camp Lebeau is now. KURN: Was it just land? LEBEAU: No, it was a camp site that was being used by the Yavapai County Boy Scouts, but there was nothing there. All they had up there was a little log cabin for storage and that was it. The Forest Service was very unhappy with them because they weren't getting the usage. In order for the Forest Service to look good back in Washington they have to show activity in their recreational deals. So, we contacted them and they were very thrilled. So, the HMC was not in a position to do anything because you need an organization. The Forest service will not sign a lease with an individual for something like this or with a hallucinate (?) group like HMC. so, we turned it over to B'nai Brith and for several years B'nai B'rith was the titular head of the camp. KURN: But there were no buildings. LEBEAU: We built it then. That's when we started building it, when we turned it over to B'nai Brith. We went out and we "schnorred" materials. We went up every weekend during the summer with the AZA kids and we practically built the camp by hand. KURN: So you didn't have campers for awhile? LEBEAU: Not for a few years, until we got the main lodge built at least and a toilet building built, and then we started putting up camp. Then, when that happened, the B'nai B'rith felt it wanted out. It didn't want the responsibility, so they turned it over to the Jewish community, to the Federation. The Federation then appointed a committee and the committee ran the camp. KURN: So this is late 40's? LEBEAU: Yeah. KURN: And it was an all summer camp? LEBEAU: Phil -- I can't think of his name now -- was president of the Federation at that time and asked me to serve as chairman, which I did for many years. It worked out very well. KURN: How did you know how to build a camp, build buildings? LEBEAU: Bobbi, when you're as ignorant as I am you never worry about now knowing anything, you just go ahead and do it. KURN: You didn't have any professional contractors? LEBEAU: And we did it. KURN: Material was donated? LEBEAU: Most of the material was donated and all the labor was donated when we started. Then, of course, we reached a point where we had to get professionals in. But we would wheelbarrow sand from the little creek bottom -- you've been up to Camp Lebeau -- we'd put down a bunch of planks and we would wheel sand up and mix cement in a mortar box, because we had no power. That , s how we poured the footings for the lodge. it was fun. KURN: Who was up there doing this? LEBEAU: There were four of us adults; there was Ben and Joe Gross, Sol Marlin and myself. Every weekend two of us would go up with a bunch of AZA kids and we would work, we'd work half a day and let them play half a day - that type of thing. It worked out beautifully. We were not concerned, really, with building a camp, per se, at that time. What we were concerned with -- we were all four advisors to AZA chapters and we were concerned with the fact that during the summer here there wasn't anything for these kids to do. There was no activity, really. They were at loose ends. So, we were looking for something for them to do. This was ideal. We'd haul them up there, work all weekend, come back and it was a mitzvah and they were out of everybody's hair for the weekend, including their parents. It worked out beautifully. KURN: Did you sleep out? LEBEAU: Sleep out. KURN: Did you take any girls up there to help you? LEBEAU: Unfortunately, not.. Never thought of it at the time, Bobbi. I wish you'd of reminded me of it then. KURN: Do you remember some of the AZA boys that you took up? LEBEAU: There's a plaque up there that lists all their names. There's a plaque up at Camp Lebeau in the front of the lodge that lists all of the B'nai Brith members who were donators and all the AZA kids that worked up there. Some of them are people that are very well-known in the community today, Ronnie Bookbinder, Jim Kaufman, Howard Polk -- what's the name of my dentist, I can't even think -- Howard Welcher. There was a whole slug of them. KURN: Jerry Gross, I think. LEBEAU: Jerry Gross was one of them. KURN: Ted Kort. LEBEAU: Ted Kort. Almost all the kids in AZA went up there part of the time. We didn't take every kid up every weekend, but we would get them to sign up, whoever wanted to go up there. We would get help from the other members of B'nai B'rith Lodge. At one point, when we were getting to the point where we needed some good help or more professional-type help, we would go up there and, in addition to the four of us, there would be Jerry Smith and Harry Smith and Irving Smith and we would work. Ben Gross had a cabin not far from Lebeau - he still does, if his wife hasn't sold it (I think she did sell it, though). We used to work at the camp and then go up to his cabin and spend the night. At least we were indoors. KURN: How much land did you get at the beginning? LEBEAU: Five acres. Five acres to build on in 30,000 acres of land. KURN: What do you mean? LEBEAU: There's 30,000 acres of forest land that nobody is allowed to build on where our camp is. There still is that much. KURN: Can you use it? LEBEAU: Yes. All of it. We can't use it to build on, but as we needed more room to build we would ask the Forest Service. We would submit a plan and they would approve it. We are now, if I remember rightly, using about 14 acres to build on. But, the 30,000 acres is Forest Service land where people are welcome to come in and use and stay overnight, but nobody can build anything there, except us. KURN: Do you remember what year you started - it opened -officially? LEBEAU: No, I really don't. It had to be, I would say, somewhere, give or take a year or two of 1950. We had a lot of help. KURN: What kind? LEBEAU: People would come up and work. We had craftsmen - Irv Satz was a plumber. That's Dorothy Goodman's dad. Satz, S-a-t-z. He came up and he would supervise some of the plumbing work. of course, Joe Gross was an electrician. He would supervise the kids when we did the electrical work. Ben Gross was a jack-of-all-trades. Ben was a fantastic craftsman. Ben, of course, was just the general supervisor of the whole thing, really. KURN: Were you doing fund raising along this time? LEBEAU: When we had to for material or for stuff like that. We never really went out on a fund raising project. We were very selective, only because we didn't have the time or the effort to do it. But, if we needed certain things we would go to people who had them. If we needed nails or hardware or iron we would go to Smith Pipe and Steel, or to Jerry Fried who was running one of their subsidiaries, and we would get it. And people would come up and work. Jerry Fried came up and worked, Sid Stein came up and worked, a lot of the fellows came up and would put in a day's work up there. The men, in addition to the boys, especially when we got into putting roofs on and stuff like that where you didn't want to allow a bunch of kids to get up there and take a chance on them getting hurt. KURN: How many summers did it take to get it built? LEBEAU: A million, it seemed like. Not I would say it took us six, eight years to get to the point where we could use the camp. But, like I say, it was being used. We were doing what we wanted to do, which was to have a project for the kids so that -- incidentally, I have to tell you how this thing started with the kids. We decided that we were going to try and do this the way I'm explaining it to you, having the kids come up and work on it, etc. one day, we invited the both -- there were only two AZA chapters then -- we invited both -- KURN: Which ones were they, do you remember? LEBEAU: No, I don't. We invited both AZA chapters to come up for a picnic and we all went up to Prescott, went to the campsite, sat them down, had a picnic and we had a little fun. Then we got them together and had a little meeting and we said to them, "We have an idea that we would like to propose to you, but you have to make the decision. We're just suggesting it." We told them about what we would like to do and we said, "We want you to decide if you want to do it. If you want to do it you're going to have to come up here in the summers, not every weekend, but whoever wants to. You can come every weekend, you can come every other weekend, or whatever -- " because they had plenty of kids -- who'd build it.. Now, I want to tell you ahead of time. You'll never use it. You will never use it, but your children and your grandchildren will use it. If you want to do that, then fine. If you think it's not a good idea, don't do it. Well, of course, they did decide to do it. And most of them are very happy that they did it. KURN: So, B'nai B'rith had it originally. LEBEAU: HMC started it, turned it over to B'nai B'rith, B'nai B'rith turned it over to the Federation. Ten years ago the Federation turned it over to the Center. I'm not going to say much more about that. KURN: Is that the point they renamed it? LEBEAU: Yes, when they turned it over to the Center. Before they turned it over they named it Camp Lebeau. KURN: What did you call it before? LEBEAU: It was Camp Covenant. Before Camp Covenant when the Center first started using it, before it had a name, even before it had the name Camp Covenant, it was called Camp Teva, T-e-v-a. As I understand in Hebrew Teva means outdoors or something. KURN: How do you spell -- it was Teva, then -- LEBEAU: T-e-v-a. Then it became Camp Covenant. KURN: C-o - - LEBEAU: v-e-n-a-n-t. And I think Art Kaufman came up with the name Camp Covenant, because the B'nai B'rith had been so active in it and we wanted something to tie B'nai B'rith into it. B'nai B'rith, of course, is a covenant between people of Israel and God. So he suggested the name Camp Covenant, which we approved. Then, when the Federation decided to turn it over, in recognition of the work that the Lebeau family had done on it they decided to name it Camp Lebeau - against my wishes - I tried to talk them out of it and couldn't. I didn't think it was a good idea. KURN: About what year would that have been? LEBEAU: Somewhere around '76, '77. I can tell you, because I think Nat Silverman still has a tape of that meeting. KURN: A cassette tape? LEBEAU: Yeah. When the Federation did this. In fact, I think that's when they gave me the man of the year award. I think it's '77, because, if I remember rightly, that's the date on my man of the year award. KURN: You've had a lot of children going to that camp over the years. LEBEAU: Yes, we have. I'll tell you. one of the very, very nice things is to have somebody come up to you that you don't even know. We had this deal that the labor unions put on once a year with Israel - AFL/CIO Israel labor meeting once a year, and they honor two people, one Jew and one Gentile. The year that they honored me, Jim Freedman was part of the committee. Jim brought his daughter in from California to entertain, as one of the people who entertained. She played her guitar and sang, it was very nice, and then when she was through she came over to me and she says, "Mr. Lebeau, I want you to know that the first time I ever performed was at Camp Lebeau." She says, "I started learning up there." But you run into people that say, "Yeah, I went to Camp Lebeau and I enjoyed it." And you run into people who say, "My kids went to Camp Lebeau." KURN: Right. LEBEAU: But it's been a very interesting experience living in Phoenix. Phoenix is a good town. Phoenix, I have to tell you, is one of the friendliest towns that I've ever heard of. Now I'm getting off of me, if I may. KURN: Certainly. LEBEAU: When Reva's father died, before we were married -- KURN: About what year would that be? LEBEAU: Well, I don't remember when he died, but it was in the, I would say, around the middle 30's, maybe '37, I don't know '36, '37. She could probably tell you. KURN: What was his name? LEBEAU: His name was Daniel, Daniel Gordon. KURN: D-a-n -- LEBEAU: D-a-n-i-e-l G-o-r-d-o-n. The community adopted Reva's family - I mean literally. KURN: What do you mean by that? LEBEAU: They all got together, the Korricks, the Diamonds, the Lewkowitzes, all of the big wheels in the community - they got together and they made the bar mitzvah for both her brothers, they made sure everything was all right with them, because she was living on a widow's pension. She had four kids on a widow's pension. So they made the bar mitzvah's, they made our engagement party and they put on our wedding. KURN: Everything? Invitations? LEBEAU: Well, invitations -- I was in the printing business, Bobbi, that's no problem. But, it was a beautiful town as far as closeness was concerned. KURN: And how did Reva and her mom feel about this? LEBEAU: They loved it. KURN: They were comfortable with it? LEBEAU: Oh, sure. It was a godsend to them, because otherwise - they struggled enough the way it was -- they would have been having a real rough time. KURN: Did you have the wedding at home? Were you married a the temple? LEBEAU: No, we were married at the temple and we were married by Rabbi Krohn. We were the first couple married by Rabbi Krohn in the temple when he came here. KURN: Beth Israel? LEBEAU: Yeah. He had married one couple in his study, I think, prior. He had just come here. Rabbi Jaffa was supposed to marry us but he wasn't feeling well. KURN: What year was that? LEBEAU: Thirty -- KURN: You better know this one Saul. You're in trouble. LEBEAU: 1939. KURN: I won't tell Reva you had to think twice. LEBEAU: March the 12th, 1939. That's nothing. I have to think twice to remember her name. That won't surprise her. KURN: Did they do this often? LEBEAU: I don't know. The only situation I knew was -- earlier when we were talking I mentioned to you this was a very close-knit community and it was. People took care of each other. We didn't have any social services. I think I mentioned this to you once before, Bobbi. At that time I was working at a print shop on Central and Van Buren, I think it was -- or McDowell, eventually moved to McDowell. But when a Jew came to town who needed help we had a gentleman here in town named Wichansky, W-i-c-h-a-n-s-k-y. Mr. Wichansky, an elderly gentleman, would make the rounds. He would come to all the Jewish people in the center of the city, you know, at work, and he would say there's a man or a couple or a family here and they need some eating money and they need some fare to get to Los Angeles where they're going. They got here and they ran out of money, and he would take up collections. Then he would take care of them. KURN: What was his first name? LEBEAU: I don't remember. KURN: Self-appointed? LEBEAU: I think so. The reason I don't remember is because in those days I had manners, which I don't have now, and he was older than I was so I always called him Mr. Wichansky. If I remember rightly, I will guess, I think his first name was Michael, but I'm not sure. KURN: Did he work? LEBEAU: I don't know. I don't think so. If he did, he had one of these little hole-in-the-wall stores downtown where they handled "schmatas' or something and I don't think he really had to be there the whole time. But the community took care of itself. KURN: Would he raise a lot of money? LEBEAU: He would say how much he needed. You know, like I need $50, can you give me $5, $3, whatever you can give me. He would make the rounds until he raised the $50 or $40 or whatever he needed. KURN: That's wonderful. LEBEAU: The community was, like I say, very close. KURN: How would he find out about the need? LEBEAU: Evidently when somebody came into town and talked to any of the business people downtown they would send them to Mr. Wichansky. What happens is they would walk into a Jewish store; they would walk into the Boston Store or they would walk into Meckler's or they would walk into any store that was owned by a Jew. Miller's Shoe Store was on Washington Street or Daniel's Jewelry or any of them. Evidently, the people that were running the stores, the managers or the owners, knew that Mr. Wichansky was the one to send them to. KURN: Did you go to him? LEBEAU: No. What would I need money for? KURN: When you first came to town? LEBEAU: No. I wouldn't even write my parents for money, Bobbi. I wouldn't take it from somebody else. KURN: So what were some of the needs of the people in town? LEBEAU: As far as I know, nothing. The only people that needed anything were transients that were coming in here and needed some, you know -- if they were going to the coast or the other coast they would need money to go to the next place. As far as I knew nobody was in a situation -- no Jew, anyway, that I knew of -- was in a situation where they needed that kind of help. KURN: People that lived here? LEBEAU: But you always helped them out if they needed you. KURN: Did he help with Reva's wedding, to get that started? LEBEAU: No. This was, I think, primarily done by the Korricks and the Diamonds. Reva had worked at the Boston Store when she got out of the high school so she knew the Diamonds very well. The Korricks didn't live too far from where they lived and her younger brother, Dee, was the same age as Ed Korrick. In fact they're still close friends. And so their car used to pick him up, take him to Sunday School - a chauffeured car, no less. KURN: The Korricks had a chauffeured car? LEBEAU: A car with a chauffeur and they used to pick him up, take the kids to Sunday School. But, it was a good place to live and it's still a good place to live. KURN: How did you get in the printing business from -- LEBEAU: That's my trade from way back in high school before I ever came to Phoenix. KURN: You did it in your home for awhile, yes? LEBEAU: No. Well, I worked for awhile and then the company I worked for sold out and I wanted to go out and get another job and several of my friends, non-Jewish incidentally, said to me, "Don't be stupid - start your own business." For example, when Reva and I were engaged -- I said we'd been going together for six months before we got married -- we had a house built for us while we were still engaged. We moved into our house the day after we were married. KURN: What do you mean, you had a house built? LEBEAU: We had a house built. You know what a house is, Bobbi? It's the, you know, the walls and the roof -- KURN: You hired somebody or it was donated? LEBEAU: A contractor, no. We hired a contractor to build a house for us. our first house cost us $2,148. That was the house and the lot, at 1207 East Minnedosa. KURN: Where's that? LEBEAU: It's between Indian School and Camelback, right off 12th Street. The fellow who furnished the materials was Stan Clem. He had a lumber yard at Six Points. He was a Mormon, and I was talking to him one day -- and a couple people had said to me, 'Why don't you start your own business?" -- I was talking to him one day and he said the same thing, he says, "Why don't you start your own business?" And I said, "Stan I can't start my own business, I have no money, no nothing." He says, "Don't worry about it. Start your own business; I'll see that you get all of our printing and you have a lot of friends." So I did, and he did too. Took me in to his manager and he says, "This is Mr. Lebeau and he' s got a little print shop and from now on give him all our printing." So between that and a few other people that I was able to talk into doing business with me I started. I had my print shop in my garage out at my house. I went over to the coast with this same Stan Clem - he drove me over. KURN: How do you spell his name? LEBEAU: C-l-e-m. -- in his car because he was going over anyway and said, 'Why don"t you ride along with me and buy what equipment you need.' In those days you couldn't buy it here. So I did and I bought a little hand press and some type and the minimum amount of material that I needed. Reva had received about a $300 or $500 deal when her dad died, which was still sitting there. And she says, 'Why don't you use it for the equipment so we can get started." And that's what we did. Then, of course, it grew and then I moved into a little place downtown. This was before the war. KURN: Were you doing anything for any of the Jewish families at that time, any printing? Jewish News had not started yet? LEBEAU: No, no. I was part of the group that started the Jewish News, believe it or not, with Bud Goldman. But no, that wasn't started yet. But I had a little business from various Jewish friends. In fact, I can tell you a funny story. When Deanna was born, my oldest daughter -- KURN: What year? LEBEAU: 1940. I didn't have enough money to pay my hospital bill. The hospital bill in those days was $80. KURN: For how many days? LEBEAU: I don't know. KURN: Probably a week. LEBEAU: Probably a week. But I had a bill there and I couldn't pay it. It was $80. So again, I went into Daniel's Jewelry and I talked to Sam Straus, because I had tried to get Sam to give me some printing and he wouldn't do it. KURN: You were still printing in your basement? LEBEAU: In my garage. He says, "Saul, I would love to but I've been doing business with the printer I have now, which was Henry Steinberg, and he says, "I've been doing business with Henry for years and he's been very nice and very fair and I can't just yank the business away from him." So, I could appreciate that. I went down to see Sam and I said, "Sam, I'm in a spot." KURN: Sam who? LEBEAU: Straus. KURN: I said, "I've got my wife at the hospital with my baby. Tomorrow I'm supposed to get them out and I don't have enough money, so I need some work." He says, "Well, how much work do you need?' I says, "$80 worth." So he said, "All right." So he gave me $80 worth of printing and I thanked him and I says, "Now, before I leave, Sam, can I ask another favor?" He says, "What?" I says, "Will you pay me in advance so I can go down and get the kid out?" And he did and that's how I got Reva and Deanna out of St. Joe's. It was a very friendly place. I got into trouble one time -- I didn't, but somebody very close to me did -- and I had to raise some money for a bond. I went to Morris Meckler. Morris didn't ask me how, when, why or what. He says, "How much do you need? When do you think you can pay it back?" And he loaned me the money. I said to him, "Morris, what interest do you want to charge me on this?" He says, 'This is not a commercial transaction. This is a loan to a friend. You don't pay any interest." But that's how a lot of the people in Phoenix were then -- very close, very friendly, very nice, willing to put themselves out and it was great. KURN: I want to talk about Phoenix Jewish News. I'm really interested in how that got started. LEBEAU: Well, I don't know where Bud got the idea but, you know, Buddy was not a well man, Bud Goldman. He had this idea of starting up a Jewish newspaper and being that I was in the printing business Bud called me. Bud and I used to play pinochle together with a group of fellows every so often. Bud said to me, "Why don't you come over to the house. I want to pick your brains." So I did, and we talked about it and he told me his ideas, and I said, "Bud, it's a very tough road to hoe, because you're starting a paper, you have no background, you have no capital to speak of." I didn't know that Bud was a pretty wealthy guy in his own right at that time. Bud was a down to earth guy and he never flaunted anywhere. I says, "It's going to take awhile before you build up your advertising and your subscriptions and so forth." KURN: What year would this have been? LEBEAU: Oh, I don't remember. I should have made notes, Bobbi. KURN: I need a reference point. Did you have any kids -- LEBEAU: I don't remember. KURN: Well, you weren't a printer in your garage at this point? LEBEAU: Oh, no, no. I had a place downtown. KURN: So it was late 40's, maybe? LEBEAU: I don't know. So, we talked about it and Bud says, "Would you be on my staff?" And I says, "Well, what can I do on your staff, you know, I'm busy. I haven't got any time to put in on something like this.' He says, "No, I want your technical expertise." And I said, "Bud, you have that whether you put me on the staff or not, I don't care." So, Bud got it started. KURN: What did you do for him? LEBEAU: Not much. KURN: You printed it. LEBEAU: Oh, no. KURN: Oh, you didn't? LEBEAU: No. I didn't print it. In fact, I don't think I ever printed it. I set the type for it when Cecil Newmark took it over. KURN: Okay. LEBEAU: Then Cecil did the paste-up and had it printed somewhere else. But, no, I don't think I ever printed it. I wasn't doing that kind of work. That was newspaper and I think at that time I was doing publications on coded paper. That was all I did, exclusively, at that particular time. But I did tell Cecil I would set his type for him. KURN: Really? LEBEAU: Yeah. KURN: By hand? LEBEAU: Oh, no. By linotype machine. We'd set it up in galleys and run proofs and then Cecil would take it home and paste it up and take it down to the printer and have it reproduced at the printer, offset. KURN: What was it called then? LEBEAU: Phoenix Jewish News. I think it was called that the whole time. I don't think the name was ever changed. KURN: As a young married, you and Reva, was your life much different once you became married, as far as living in Phoenix? LEBEAU: I don't think so, Bobbi. How would I know? KURN: Did you join a temple? Did you join Beth El because - - LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. Well, I belonged when I was single. KURN: I didn't know that. LEBEAU: Yeah. I belonged when I was single. About the time I got married, somewhere around 1939, I was on the Board of Directors of Beth El. I was the youngest member of the Board of Directors. KURN: It's never been the same, Saul. LEBEAU: I know. I've got news for you. The meetings were held in Yiddish. KURN: Come on. I've never heard that. LEBEAU: Yes, Ma'am. Down at the building on 4th Street and Polk- it was in Yiddish. I used to sit next to Wolf Sirlin, I think his name was. Wolf was his first name, Sirlin, S-i-r-l-i-n, I think, and he was Harry Hoffman's father-in-law. He would insist that I sit next to him, no matter when I came, I had to sit right next to him. Every time I would get up to speak he'd grab me and pull me down. 'Zits, du bist a kind". You don't know anything yet, you know. But it was all Yiddish. KURN: I'm amazed. LEBEAU: Well, Sam Schurgin was a member of the Board at that time. I think Morris Meckler was, if I remember rightly. I can't remember all of them, because I was only a member of the Board for about a year, two years at the most. I couldn't take it much longer than that. KURN: Was there anybody who didn't speak or understand Yiddish? LEBEAU: Yeah, me. No, I understood a little bit and I spoke a little bit. It was more comfortable for them. They were all old timers. They could express themselves better in Yiddish. So that's the way the meeting was conducted. KURN: Was there a rabbi there at the time? LEBEAU: Yes and no. We had a rabbi part of the time, I think. I don't even remember who the rabbis were at that time. I remember one story that might be of some interest. Before I ever came to Phoenix, one year I went into the synagogue in San Diego for some reason -- which was near my home -- I'm sure not a very important reason, but I stopped there and I sat down and there's a young fellow about my age next to me who I've never seen. So I introduced myself and asked him who he was and what he was doing there. And he says, "Well, my mother died and I came over here so I could get a minyan every day, because I couldn't get a minyan." So he was staying down at Coronado Hotel, coming into San Diego every day for the minyan. I saw him two or three times. The first time I walked into Beth El for the high holidays and sat down, I sat right next to him. KURN: Same guy. LEBEAU: Same guy, Aubrey Grouskay. KURN: You're kidding. LEBEAU: Aubrey Grouskay. KURN: So you go way back with him. LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. KURN:. Did most of the Jewish people belong to synagogues in those days? LEBEAU: I would probably say yes. The reason I say that, Bobbi, is we have two synagogues here. We have Beth El and Beth Israel. We have 300 Jewish families. You know, how do you operate two synagogues unless almost everybody belongs to one or the other? Some of them belonged to both. They still do to this day. There are a lot of people that belong to both. KURN: And they both had buildings? LEBEAU: Yeah. Well, the Beth El was, like I say, 4th and Fillmore and eventually they built the building -- the Whitefields who were instrumental and spearheaded building the building on McDowell and 3rd Street, Al and Harry Whitefield - they were in the real estate business here. Harry died. Al, I think, is still in L.A. Robert Whitefield, who operates Superior Drapes, is Al's son, I think. But the Whitefields were very active in Beth El and they and the Smiths - Harry, Jerry and that group from the Industrial Uniform - were instrumental in getting the schul started on McDowell. Then Rabbi Krohn was the firebrand that got the temple to build over on 10th and Flower. KURN: Was it a pretty close-knit Jewish community still? LEBEAU: We had one big problem in those days. The "shul" kids would not socialize with the "temple" kids and vice-versa. In fact, if the "shul" kids were having a dance, the "temple" kids weren't invited. If the "temple" kids were having a dance, the "shul" kids weren't invited. This bugged several of us, and we went to work on it. We got a hold of the rabbis and we raised so much hell -- I don't know what other word to use -- that they finally got their kids together and set them on the right track, and the kids began to socialize with each other. But, it was ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. But, you know, when some rabbis -- now, I'm going to get myself in trouble here -- KURN: I know, he's on the soapbox now. LEBEAU: Yeah. Some rabbis create so many problems. For example, when a rabbi comes out and publishes in the Jewish News or anywhere else that unless so-and-so-and-so took place at such a time at your birth, you're not Jewish. I'm not going back too many years. That was typical of the era then. There was no tolerance. There was no Yiddishkeit, in my opinion. The rabbis fostered this to some degree, some of them, not all of them, but some of them. So, it made it difficult, it made it very difficult. It would create divisions where there were none, until they learned, finally, that the community would not stand still for it. But, that's the way it went. I worked at a place called Stanley's Print Shop at 241 North Central Avenue. I got $10 a week. I worked five days. I still worked Saturdays at Safeway. I got another $3 that's $13. KURN: That's probably late 30's. LEBEAU: Yeah, in that area. I worked for them for a long time - quite a few years. It was a small plant - there were only two of us working there. I worked there til they sold out and that's when I decided to open up my own plant. KURN: How long did you have your own? LEBEAU: Well, let's see. I had it for about, I think, since the late 30's because I know I closed it down when the war broke out at the end of '41, so it had to be late 30"s or early 40's. I made a mistake. I had a friend of mine who was a doctor who was on the draft board and who had been taking care of me - my internist. I went down to him and I said, "Bill, tell me something. I'm married, I've got two kids, I'm in business. Tell me if I'm going to be drafted, because I don't want to get a draft notice all of a sudden and be stuck." He says, "Saul, when your name comes up you' re going." I says, "Okay." So I sold my business and went to work out at Luke Field figuring I would work until they called me. Well, they didn't call me. I worked at Luke Field for awhile and then I decided I didn't like it there so I quit and went to work for Garrett Corporation as an inspector. Then there was a major who used to came down from Las Vegas when I worked at Luke Field. The C.O. used to turn him over to me and I used to take him around and see that he got what he wanted and so forth. He came out to the house one night and he said, "Why did you quit out at the field?" And I says, "I don't like the routine. I don't like the people." He says, "Why don't you come to Las Vegas and go to work up there?" I didn't want to but he talked me into it. KURN: Good paying job? LEBEAU: Yeah. I got $1,880 a year. But, he flew me up there until they found a place for the family. It was in a barracks type of thing but it was several months. Then he would fly me home every second weekend to be with my family and fly back again. So then I worked at Las Vegas until V-E Day and then I came back to Phoenix. KURN: Then what did you do? LEBEAU: I went to work for Ben Costantin in the dry cleaning business. KURN: Ben? LEBEAU: Costantin, C-o-s-t-a-n-t-i-n. He had Biltmore Cleaners. Ben was a member of HMC and B'nai B'rith. When Ben heard I was back in town he says, "Why don't you come to work for me?" I said, "I don't know anything about dry cleaning." He says, "You don't have to know anything about dry cleaning. We'll teach you what you need to know." So I went to work for Ben. $75 a week, which was a good salary in those days. I worked for Ben for, I don't know how long, maybe a year, maybe a year and a half. Then I decided I wanted to go back to printing, which was my trade. So I went out and got myself a job. I opened up my own plant. This was a good size plant that I reopened, because I wanted to print publications. You have to have a lot of equipment to do that. So I got four monthly publications, I made a deal with four publishers - the Arizona Medicine Journal, the Arizona Beverage Journal, the Arizona Stockman Magazine and, let's see, there was another one - I forgot the name now - oh, a cattle magazine for the cattle business. I would produce one of those every week - they were monthly magazines. That's all I did for awhile until finally the pressure was such that more and more customers wanted us to do their work, so we did it. KURN: You were always involved one way or the other with Jewish organizations, Jewish people in the community. Why did you become involved as opposed to becoming assimilated? What drew you towards -- LEBEAU: Because I'm Jewish and because I want to give the community back something -- this community's been very good to me and my family. You know, you don't live in a community -- even if you don't have much to give -- if you're any kind of a person, you don't live in a community isolated. You help people, they help you. I never had a problem, because whenever I needed help somebody was there to help me. so, I figured whenever somebody else needs help and asks I want to help them. I served on numerable commissions and boards and stuff for the city over a period of years, which I never publicized or did anything about, mainly because I would get a call from somebody and they would say, "Hey, we have a problem; we need a group of people to sit down and resolve it and we want you to sit in." So I did. It was no big deal. I didn't put myself out and it didn't cost me a lot of time or effort or money. It was just that if you're there and people need help you help them. It's that simple. Basically, it goes back to what I said before: Every time I've needed help, somebody's helped me - always. Sol I guess I'm very lucky. KURN: And your children came along and they followed in your footsteps and they -- LEBEAU: I sure hope so. They're all involved one way or another. I hope enough rubbed off on them. I didn't make an effort. to go out of my way to teach them anything other than trying to be an example to them. They each have their own lives and their own interests and they do their own thing. But, basically, I think, at least I hope so, they're all good kids. They take after their mother. KURN: So, did you see a change, like in the 30's and the 40's and the 50's? LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. Right after the war the biggest change took place. KURN: What kind? LEBEAU: The reason for that I think was we had a lot of air fields around here. We had a lot of soldiers that were stationed at these air fields from various parts of the country. In my small limited experience even when I worked out at Luke Field, they would go home after the war and then all of a sudden they would show up again with their families, because they never knew when they lived back East that there was a place like Arizona. Sol they'd get their families and they would move back out here. There were a tremendous amount of people I know of personally -- when I say a tremendous amount I'm not talking thousands or anything, but dozens and dozens of people that I knew personally that were in the service and then moved out here after the war. The place just boomed. You couldn't keep it down. It started growing like crazy. KURN: In what way? LEBEAU: Population. Homes, businesses. You take a community like Phoenix whose population up until recently doubled every ten years - that's a lot of growth. It went from 40 to 80, from 80 to 160, from 160 to 320, from 320 to 640 in four decades. So it grew fast. And it changed. There's no doubt but what the atmosphere here is a little different than it was, but not that much. I still think it's a good place outside of the atmosphere, our bad air. Other than that it's all right. KURN: Is there anything else you'd like to tell us? LEBEAU: Not particularly. KURN: That would give us a better image of Phoenix. LEBEAU: No. I think I've mentioned most of the stuff - how friendly the place was, everybody worked together and helped each other out. Maybe I have a tendency to color stuff that happened a long time ago, but I try not to. When I say that anytime I needed help I got it, that's exactly what I mean. Example: When I first opened up my plant to print publications I borrowed money at the bank, a substantial amount of money. I had a good credit rating and I made a substantial -- substantial for me at that time. After I got started one of my customers decided to change his printing to another plant, which meant I could not pay my bills. I went to the bank before my payment was due -- very important, I learned a long time ago, that you don't wait until you're delinquent, you go down before -- I went to the bank and I talked to the manager, a fellow named Bob Sabek at Valley Bank, I said, "Bob, I've got a problem." He says, "What's the problem?" I told him the story and he says, "Well, you tell me what you want to do." I says, "Well, I just can't make my payment." He says, "Well, how much can you pay without hurting yourself, without strapping yourself?" I says -- I forget what I was paying -- but I said, "I can pay half of that a month until I get another publication to fill that spot and then I can go back to my regular payment." He says, "Fine, go ahead and do it." Well, you know, this is what I mean by cooperation. Nobody ever pressured you. Everybody helped you wherever they could. It was and is a nice place to live. People out here are still very fine people. KURN: There was kind of a small town mentality. LEBEAU: Yeah. And a lot of people still have a small town mentality in Phoenix, believe it or not. KURN: Of course you've paid back zillions fold to the community. LEBEAU: I still owe a lot. You never pay it back. All you do is contribute what you can. Its not a debt that you pay. It's not a debt really. It's just something you do, I think. KURN: That must have been instilled in you somewhere way back. LEBEAU: I don't know. I can't put my finger on it even. My dad was not active that I can remember. He belonged to B'nai B'rith. Well I guess he was too. He started a savings and loan association back in Pittsburgh. I guess he was active to a degree. For him in those days it was being very active, because he was a barber as I mentioned. His hours were horrendous. He worked six days a week and half a day on Sunday and he left the house before we got up in the morning and didn't come home til we went to bed at night, so the only time I saw my father was on weekends. But, I guess everybody does what they have to do and what they feel like they want to do. KURN: Did you see a lot of people leaving in the 30's and 40, s? LEBEAU: No, very few. Very few. KURN: Because life was hard - no air conditioning. LEBEAU: No, it wasn't hard, Bobbi. We didn't have any air conditioning, but we didn't know about it and we didn't miss it. When Deanna was a baby Reva took her to the doctor. She had a rash. The doctor says to Reva, "Well, it's a heat rash." He gave her some calamine lotion or baby powder or whatever and he said, "Keep your cooler on." And Reva says, "What cooler?" That was before air conditioning, but we didn't even have a cooler. KURN: Really. LEBEAU: No. But we didn't miss it. We kept our doors and windows open. We slept out on the lawn a few times when it got real hot, but you could drive down the street and there were people sleeping out on the lawn all up and down the street. When you don't have it, you don't miss it. You don't know about it. We didn't miss air conditioning until we got air conditioning for awhile. We lived with evaporative coolers for a long time. They were great - we thought that was terrific, because before that we didn't even have those. So when we had evaporative coolers that was great. The first house I went to in Phoenix that had refrigeration was Arnold Smith's. KURN: Figures. LEBEAU: That's right, it does. You're going to run that off the tape, you're going to erase that. That's going to be that 18 minute gap that Nixon had. But, Arnold invited us over to his house one time, I forget where he was living, but he had air conditioning. It was such a "machia", it was summertime, and we got in the house and it was cool and oh! So Reva and I talked about it on the way back and said, "Well, some day soon, as soon as we can manage it, we'll get air conditioning, refrigeration." Which we did. But, basically, you don't miss what you don't have. You don't miss money when you don't have any. We didn't have any money when we were young, Bobbi. There were three of us living in our house when we first got married - Reva, myself and my brother, Hank, my younger brother. I got paid on Fridays and one Thursday night when I came home from work we lived just a half a block from a grocery store - and Reva said to me, "You know, we don't have any bread in the house. Would you go over and get a loaf of bread?" A loaf of bread in those days was 10 cents. Between the three of us we didn't have 10 cents. We ate dinner that night without bread. It was no big deal - we were not deprived of anything. It was fun, it was actually fun. KURN: You didn't feel sorry for yourselves? LEBEAU: No. I was the luckiest guy in the whole town, Bobbi. I never feel sorry for myself. KURN: Was it because most of your world was in the same situation that you were in? LEBEAU: I don't know. All I know is I've been very happy being married to Reva. I've been very happy with my kids - not that they don't give me aggravation. When I see what has happened to some of the people I know and their children, then I just thank God, because my kids are good. I haven't had the drug scene, I haven't had all of that stuff and I really thank God every day. KURN: Of course, you didn't have those kinds of problems in the 30's and 40's, did you? LEBEAU: We had them when my kids were going to high school, towards the end, when Doug was going to high school. KURN: That was the 50's. LEBEAU: Yeah, I think so. KURN: But your contemporaries when you first moved here - of course, you said there was alcohol. LEBEAU: Oh, yeah, well, alcohol, there was always alcohol. KURN: Like beer? LEBEAU: Beer, hard alcohol. I ran with a crowd in high school that drank a lot. KURN: Jewish kids? LEBEAU: Both. I would say mostly not Jewish. KURN: Is that here in Phoenix? LEBEAU: No, San Diego. We did a lot of drinking. It was the social thing to do then. You know, you would go to a high school dance and if you had a bottle out in the car or cans, bottles of beer out in the car, it was a big deal. We always had liquor in the house at home. My parents always had liquor in the house. We were always welcome to have a drink whenever -- you know, we never abused it at home. I very seldom abused it outside of the house, until I was here and I was alone working by myself and had nothing to do. I got off work at 4:00 and I was working at that time at Central and McDowell and I would start down Central towards town and I would stop at almost every tavern along the way and have a drink or two. By the time I got to town sometimes I would eat dinner and sometimes I wouldn't. KURN: That's how you spent your money. LEBEAU: Til my wife told me the facts of life. I don't know what else I can tell you, Bobbi. There's just been a lot of good people in Phoenix, most of them gone, of course. They were wonderful people. I've had a wonderful life, I can't complain at all. I get aggravated once in a while with bureaucrats and things like that but that's normal for me. I always feel in the majority of one. I have all my life. KURN: This has been wonderful. You don't even realize how wonderful this has been. The tidbits you've told us are just things we didn't know, we don't have and now we do. LEBEAU: Somebody we'll talk again and maybe I can remember some more. KURN: Gladly. It's open-ended. I've got more room on my tape if you think of anything else. LEBEAU: Well, I told Reva you said she was next. KURN: That's right. LEBEAU: And she'll give you probably an entirely different perspective of what I did, because everybody's different. KURN: But it's good to see it and hear it from her perspective,, as a young woman in Phoenix in the 30's and 40's and how she felt as a Jewish woman. You felt part of the Jewish community, did you not? LEBEAU: Oh, yeah, ever since I was here. I've always been active in the Jewish community, as well as the non-Jewish community, which is one of the bones of contention that I've had with some people - why don't I devote all my time and energies to the Jewish community? My reason has always been because I'm not a member of just the Jewish community, I'm a member of the community at large. Part of my effort I want to put into the general community as well as the Jewish community. KURN: You've done both well. LEBEAU: Oh, come on. KURN: Spread yourself thin. LEBEAU: No, not really. Not really. It's a funny thing, but when you want to do something, you always have time for it, no matter how busy you are. KURN: Of course, the whole story of Camp Rainbow I think is wonderful. LEBEAU: That's another story altogether. We'll get into that someday. KURN: Basically, the Jewish organizations you've been in were the Men's Club, B'nai B'rith, Beth El Board. LEBEAU: The Federation. KURN: Were you president of the Federation? LEBEAU: No. I was chairman of the drive in '74, but they wouldn't elect me president. KURN: You're too feisty. LEBEAU: That's right. I cause too much controversy. KURN: You keep us on our toes. LEBEAU: Well, not that necessarily, but there's just things -- it's strange to me that you can take a bunch of very intelligent business people - and they are, I'm not running them down, I'm not being sarcastic - put them on a board or committee -- KURN: Be it a temple or shul. LEBEAU: Anywhere -- and they act like a bunch of idiots. KURN: Figure that out and you'll be famous. LEBEAU: A good example is our Senate. They vote to pay Mecham's bills. What could be stupider? KURN: What else did we have, what other Jewish organizations? LEBEAU: We didn't have too many. Gradually, as the town grew, then you began to get the women's organizations that came in. Then, of course, the women had things to do. Because, originally, the women sat home Tuesday nights while the men went to B'nai B'rith or HMC. There was no place for them to go. KURN: Would they get together themselves? LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. They were all friendly, all the wives of the HMC members knew each other, because we would have our parties and get-togethers. They were all old-timers. KURN: Good days. LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. KURN: Well, we thank you, young man, for sharing with us. LEBEAU: You're welcome, young lady. KURN: If you think of anything else, let me know. LEBEAU: All right, Bobbi. ADDENDUM LEBEAU: When Reva and I got engaged her mother and Reva were very friendly with Allen and Rose Rosenberg who had the drugstore down on Washington Street. So, I'd gone in there a few times and met the Rosenbergs and chatted with them. So, Reva and her mother went in there to tell Allen and Rose that she was engaged. So she walked in there with her finger out, you know, to tell them she was engaged and Allen and Rose both said, "Oh, no, we have the perfect guy for you and here you go ahead and get engaged." So, Reva's mother says, "Well, who?" They said, "Saul Lebeau." So Reva says, "That's who I'm engaged to." KURN: Isn't that neat! Next year's your 50th. LEBEAU: Yeah. KURN: It was "mazel". LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. I was very lucky I found the right gal the first time. KURN: Her mother found you. LEBEAU: I courted her mother. Did you know that? KURN: What do you mean? LEBEAU: When I went back out to the house that day to see Reva every time I wanted to take Reva anywhere -- in those days you went for a ride or something, we'd drive out to Tempe or out to Sunnyslope -- I would pick her up and I would ask her mother to come along. KURN: You had a car? LEBEAU: I borrowed my boss's car. I didn't have a car, but I had a boss who was a doll, who let me use her car when I needed it or wanted it. So, I always used to ask her mother along. Reva used to say, "Who are you courting, me or my mother?" I used to say, "Both of you." In fact, Reva tells the kids -- and they were shocked when she first started telling them this -- that she had to get married. Well, you know in those days if the kids thought, "my mother had to get married -- oh, my God!" So, she says, "Not the reason you think. Between my mother nagging me on one side and Saul nagging me on the other, it was easier to get married than to keep saying no." KURN: What would kids do on a date? They would just go for a ride and come right back home? LEBEAU: Well, that's what I did, because I'd borrow a car, you know. I'd ask Reva's mother to come with us, so we'd drive out to Tempe or out to Sunnyslope or somewhere and we'd stop and get some ice cream or something and then come back - just visit. Because without air conditioning, you know, in the evening if you're in a car it was a lot cooler. KURN: You didn't have any necking spots? LEBEAU: Bobbi, the answer to that is definitely yes. But I didn't take her mother along on those. KURN: Where were the necking spots in Phoenix? LEBEAU: One of our favorite places to park in those days was the canal right off Central Avenue, the one out near Sunnyslope. There was a little dance place there and you could drive along the canal and park. It was nice and dark and you could see this little nightclub type of thing. A lot of kids used to park off Camelback up in those mountain streets up there. South Mountain was always a good place to go. We didn't do any heavy necking and petting in those days, believe it or not. KURN: Where was this in Sunnyslope and the canal? Where would that be? LEBEAU: The canal that runs across Central Avenue out near Sunnyslope. Right on the right-hand side just south of the canal there used to be a little place there - in fact, there's still a restaurant there, I think. KURN: Is that near Central? LEBEAU: Yeah, right off Central. KURN: And Dunlap? LEBEAU: Before you get to Dunlap, I think it is. We used to park out there. KURN: Of course, this was all blank, wooded -- LEBEAU: Most of it. Bobbi, let me tell you a story. When I worked at the print shop for Stanley's Printers one of the salesmen was a gentleman named Jimmy Gear. His parents owned a big dairy farm out on north Central around Thomas, in those days. Jimmy was a salesman, a very nice guy. He had a very good friend named Vince Spaulding. Jimmy and Vin asked me one day if I wanted to come out and work two or three nights a week. They had an outdoor nightclub way out in the country. It had a dance floor and I think they had a three piece combo. Basically, they just served drinks. They had sandwiches, because you had to have sandwiches to get a license, but nobody ever bought sandwiches, but we served drinks. So I used to go out there and work nights, usually on a weekend. I'd work three nights a week, maybe, and make a little extra money. You kept all your tips, it didn't pay anything, but you got to keep all your tips. This was way out in the country, out of the way. Do you know where it was? Where Phoenix College is now. That was way out in the country. No houses around there - it was absolutely vacant. KURN: So this was all just farm land? LEBEAU: Yep. KURN: And citrus groves? LEBEAU: Some. When we bought our first house on 14th Avenue just south of Indian School and on the east side of 15th Avenue there were farms - onion fields. 15th Avenue was not paved at that time. In fact, I went to play poker one time I still remember I was invited by a young chap named Connie Clare to his house to play poker. He gave me directions on how to find it. He says, "Go over to McDowell to 15th Avenue and then take a right turn and it's the sixth house on the left." I said, "Fine." That house is across from Encanto Park. I mean, nowadays. It was the sixth house then and 15th Avenue was a dirt street. This was all open area. KURN: In 40 years look how we've grown. LEBEAU: Yeah. The first house that we built, the one out on Minnedosa when we were engaged, between I think it was Campbell - maybe it was Indian School but I don't think so, I think it was Campbell - between Campbell and Camelback and 12th Street and 16th Street were six houses. KURN: Big houses? LEBEAU: No. Ours was 800 square feet. Just a little box. But to us it was great. KURN: Two bedrooms? LEBEAU: Yeah. KURN: What else? LEBEAU: Wood floors. Bathroom, two bedrooms, living room, kitchen. Very nice. I have very fond memories of that place. KURN: Teeny, small. LEBEAU: Oh, yeah. 800 square feet. KURN: Big back yard? LEBEAU: Yeah. Nice big-sized lot, front and back yard. We used that two-car garage extensively. That was a lifesaver for us. That's where we started -- KURN: Your printing. LEBEAU: Yeah. With Reva's inheritance. KURN: The $500. Those are good stories. [End of transcript]