..inte: Kirk Kroloff ..intr: Dorothy Pickelner ..da: 1988 ..cp: 1993.036.192 Rabbi A. L. Krohn at groundbreaking of Veterans Hospital, late 1940s ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Kirk Kroloff July 23, 1988 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Dorothy Pickelner Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Kirk Kroloff Interview Pages 1- 2 Born 1930 in Los Angeles; to Phoenix Ben Herzberg after birth 2 Father moved to Bisbee from Sioux Rynie Salmon City, Iowa Bob Becker 2- 3 Parents to Phoenix in 20's Feffer Rosenzweig Lewkowitz Diamond Joe Haldeman 4 First house - Willetta Street Kenilworth Dick Snell 4 Moved to Palmcroft Eiseles Charlie Becker Jim Simmons 5 Neighborhood friends Greenbaums Harold Tenenbaum Hirshbergs Gunnells McElroys Fox Leaders Club Boston Store Korricks 6 Phoenix was a quiet town; slept Encanto Pharmacy on sleeping porches 7- 8 Leisure time activities Vic Hannys Rosenzweig 9-10 Segregation; prejudices Bobby Feffer 10-11 Time spent at train station; Southern Pacific train travel 11-12 Car rides to Blythe Bill Whitman Shefflers Café Pages 12 Dad's business Seed and Feed Allen Rosenberg Aubrey Grouskay Jerry Lewkowitz Bobby Korrick Pete Eldridge 13-14 Judaism Rabbi Krohn 14-15 Prejudices - blacks, Mexicans Palms Theater Arizona Club Jerry Goneaway 16-17 Dating in high school North High Ruth Gottlieb Leonard Skomer Margie Peck Spitalnys Victor's 18 Death of best friend Bobby Korrick Patty Lewkowitz Joe Ehrlich 19-21 Bringing culture to Phoenix Mrs. Archer Linde 21-23 School system; segregation Rabbi Krohn 24-25 Wife Jerri Sam Rich Allen Rosenberg Rose Rosenberg Paul Rich Morton Rich 25-26 Four sons; one daughter-in-law 27-28 Korean War experiences 28-29 North Phoenix High 40th reunion Edna Lipow Bobby Feffer Paul Lewinthal Pages 31 Two sons to Jesuit schools St. Francis Brophy 32-33 Children very Jewish Harry Rosenzweig 33 Not yet member of a temple Chuck/Barbara Herring Rabbi Krohn Rabbi Fierman Rabbi Plotkin 34-35 German prisoner of war camp 35 Japanese relocation camps 36 Feelings about being Jewish Simon Welsenthal Foundation 37-39 Affluence in Phoenix then and now Phoenix Country Club Eddie Korrick 40 Three children born at St. Joseph's Ben Herzberg Ed Sattenspiel 41-43 Community pride then and now 43-44 Lack of leadership Kirk Kroloff Interview Good morning, Kirk. This is Dorothy Pickelner and I'm interviewing Kirk Kroloff, who has returned to Phoenix after a long stay elsewhere. This is July 23, 1988 and I am Interviewing him at my home. Kirk has returned to Phoenix and has a lot of things to tell us. He was born November 20, 1930. He is a native and he is the first young man who we are interviewing as a son of someone whom we have already Interviewed, so this should be Interesting. He was the son of Archie and Dorothy Kroloff. His wife is named Gerri. His children are Mark, Reed, Adam and Noah. He attended and was graduated from Claremont Men's College. His work experience is In agriculture and mainly in the oil business. He was a member of a number of civic boards and the Temple Beth Israel and is currently not affiliated, having recently come back to Phoenix. PICKELNER: Good morning, Kirk. I am happy to interview you today. KROLOFF: Hi, Dorothy. PICKELNER: Now, Kirk, are you a native of Phoenix? KROLOFF: First I want to correct one Impression. I am not a young man, only in your view. I am 57 years old, about to be 58, so I guess one has to define what's young. You look young to me. PICKELNER: Oh, thank you. KROLOFF: Yes, I'm a native of Phoenix, but in a peculiar way, because I was born in Los Angeles. At the time my mother was pregnant with me it was before the arrival of Ben Herzberg who became everybody's obstetrician. My father thought that the local obstetrician was a jerk. His name was Angus Depinto and my father refused to let my mother go to him, so my mother was sent to Los Angeles to give birth to me and then I came back a week or two or three after I was born. So I'm a native but born in Los Angeles. PICKELNER: When did your family arrive In Phoenix and tell about them. Who were they? KROLOFF: Okay. I can't give you the exact date and I'm a little hazy on dates, but I have an Uncle Herman who was living here who will really be better at the exactness of this. My grandfather, whom I never knew - my father's father - had tuberculosis and they came from Sioux City, Iowa to Bisbee, Arizona and they ran out of money, which Is why they stopped in Bisbee and never got as far as Phoenix. My dad went to high school In Bisbee. I think he even has memories of like seeing people like Geronimo and that kind of stuff. My Uncle Herman could really tell you some wonderful stories about this. My dad played basketball In high school at Bisbee High. His best friend was a guy by the name of Rynie Salmon who later went on to be a very prominent attorney here. Bob Becker was my father's other best friend from Bisbee and he went on to be a very prominent businessman. He was treasurer of Del Webb Corporation In the early days and worked at the First National Bank. But, anyway, the folks came to Phoenix probably in the 20's and I really am not accurate, but my uncle would be glad to tell you that. They lived on West Jefferson and the house in which they lived Is still there. It should be torn down and probably will be. But it's one of those little small white bungalow type houses west of 19th Avenue on Jefferson Street. It's still there and my sister would remember the exact address and we have pictures of that house and pictures of my family in that house. My dad was an early civic kind of guy and participated in many civic affairs In Phoenix, as well as Jewish civic --I'm going to say community and Jewish civic affairs. He was president of the Temple a couple of times and all that kind of thing. He has already been taped so I don't want to repeat all of the stuff that my father told, but you know who his friends were and they all socialized together. The Feffers and the Rosenzweigs and the Lewkowitzes and the Diamonds. My father's best friends were Bert and Harold Diamond. They socialized substantially in the non-Jewish community. As a matter of fact, my folks' really closest friends were people named Haldeman, who later became quite prominent In Democratic politics, particularly Joe Haldeman. And then later got the sullied reputation by their grandchildren who did bad things. I guess you're really wanting to hear more about what my life was like here in Phoenix In the early days, rather than my dad's. So I may refer back to my dad and my mother a little bit as we go along, because they were unique and they were very early Jewish people here in Phoenix. PICKELNER: Would you tell us about your experiences as a young kid In Phoenix and where you went to school and who your friends were and so on? KROLOFF: My first house of memory was on West Willetta Street, and by the way, that house was featured a year or two ago in the Arizona Republic as being one of the restored little cottages. The house looked big to me, but I guess in today's world It was a cottage. We lived on Willetta Street and I went to Kenilworth grammar school. I had lots of friends in those days. My best friend was Dick Snell, who is still a very active person here and Dick and I are still friends. When we moved from Willetta street we moved way the hell out of town to Palmcroft which was north of McDowell, which was out of the city limits - McDowell was the city limits at that time. I remember my mother and dad discussing the fact that they were doing something that gosh, that was an awful long ways to go. Palmcroft was a development in that Encanto area. It wasn't supposed to make it but it did in those days, and it was very, very nice. From a Jewish point of view we had a couple of Jewish neighbors, but most of our neighbors were not Jewish. our next-door neighbors were the Eiseles. The Eiseles owned the bakery. Charlie Becker and Lloyd Eisele owned the bakery and I grew up with Sally and Patty. Patty now Is married to Jim Simmons, who is the new chairman of the Valley Bank. Patty and I were really good friends, and so was Sally. In those days you played a lot In your neighborhood. Neighborhoods don't have the same Impact today that they had in those days. You played with your neighbor friends. From the standpoint of Jewish friends In our neighborhood, the Greenbaums were there but they only had one child, Sarah Jean, and she married later Harold Tenenbaum. Sarah Jean was a bit older than -- you know, she was an old lady to me. of course, she's not living now. The others were the Hirshbergs, Phil Hirshberg and Ann, who is now Ann Kaufman, and her two children, Jerry and Marty. Jerry and Marty and I were really close. The Gunnells lived In that neighborhood and the McElroys and all those people, and the Snells. We all lived kind of around each other and we played together. I mean, you really played In the neighborhood. You played kick the can -- I'm talking as little kids, you know, not driving ages. You'd get on the Encanto bus, it was called I think Encanto or Palmcroft bus - I don't remember what It's called - and you'd go downtown to go to the Fox Leaders Club on Saturday morning and that's what you did - in the old Fox Theater - I guess it's not even there. It was a beautiful building. PICKELNER: Was that a movie theater? KROLOFF: It was a movie theater. It was right near the Boston Store, which became Diamonds, which Is now -- I don't know what it is, I think it's a civic building of some kind. It's across the street from Korrick's and down a block. That's what you did. I mean, it was a real quiet town. You know, I've spent the last 18 years in Texas and people ask me what it's like, and I won't spend hours on Texas, but I lived In a town called Waco and we were in the farming and ranching business there in Waco. My Phoenix friends would ask me what we did and we'd say, "Well, we watched the paint dry" or "We watched the grass grow." Well, we did a lot of that in Phoenix. We used to sleep on sleeping porches. I know people think that you got to be older than me to remember that, but it's really not so. We had sleeping porches In those days - no refrigeration and no cooling. My mother used to put the bedposts In mason jars because the scorpions can't crawl up a mason jar. I remember that. And you used to yell to your neighbor kids, you know, everybody was sleeping on sleeping porches and you'd yell back and forth, and sneak over if they were girls and that kind of thing. You just had a good time. You rode your bikes to school. I don't know if we had school buses or not, probably we did, but maybe we didn't, but we didn't know about It. You rode your bike to school and you stopped to pick up a buddy on the way. We used to stop at the Encanto Pharmacy at 7th Avenue and McDowell on the way home from school for a coke and you'd harass the hell out of the guy that was the pharmacist, and he hated you and wished you weren't in his store. PICKELNER: Was that the Encanto Pharmacy? KROLOFF: Yes. And you used to get your hair cut by Otis. He was a black man at the corner of 3rd Avenue and Roosevelt, a building that is still there. Everybody went there for their haircut. He was a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful man. PICKELNER: What was his name again? KROLOFF: Otis. I have no Idea what his last name was. I don't think I ever knew. But, he was a great guy. That building Is still there. And everybody got their hair cut by Otis. That's where they went. You did things that you just don't do today. Like when you get downtown you just kind of liked to wander, you know, you'd wander around. You'd watch the Indians down there on Washington Street, you know, that used to sell their wares along Washington. I remember the streetcar Ii used to run out Washington street. And you'd just kind of like do nothing. I know that sounds Just awful in today's world -- we push our children so today. You just had a good time. It's pretty tough to have a good time when It's 110 degrees outside or whatever it was. But, nonetheless, you just lived -- we played a lot of football and played a lot of basketball. You did a lot of that stuff and it wasn't very well organized and you had to go a long ways to do it, and all that kind of stuff. You swam at the University pool. We used to swim all the time. Then the pool near Emerson School was where you went -- you didn't go to Kenilworth School, your friends were going to Emerson School which was over on 7th Street, kind of like near Palm Lane. The other pool was Coronado Pool. There was a whole social structure built around the pool. There were the kids that swam at Coronado and the kids that swam at University. It was like the kids that went to Emerson and the kids that went to Kenilworth. Each was a social set of its own. PICKELNER: Very Interesting. That's a very good picture. I like that - doing nothing. They just don't do that anymore. KROLOFF: No. And we had good times. We really did have good times. I won't tell you all the bad things that kids do. You're very concerned today about your children doing this and that and you're structured about how you deal with them, but the truth is that maybe we shouldn't. I don't know. I know the pressures are different. I remember going shopping with my mother for clothes. You'd go once a year over to Los Angeles to go to Bullocks over on Wilshire Boulevard and that was the big deal. But, mostly you bought your clothes from the Korricks personally, or the Diamonds personally. They would come down to the men's department or the boy's department and supervise such matters. That's what you did. You went to Goldwaters - I mean, my mother went to Goldwaters, the men didn't go to Goldwaters. The men went to Korricks and Diamonds and to Vic Hannys, it was called - Ben Projan's Men's store. I'll never forget. I have a wonderful story about - his name was Isaac, I believe, Mr. Rosenzweig, Harry's dad. The Rosenzweigs had given me a watch for some occasion, maybe It was my birthday, I don't know. The darn thing didn't work and I had to take it in there. My mother made me go to Mr. Rosenzweig. He looked at this watch and he fussed with this watch and, of course, he palmed it and gave me a new one, but he made me go through the rigors of hell about making sure that the thing didn't work right, and how was I going to get credit. You know, he really put me through the routine. He was a great man. You could always depend on seeing Harry in the store. my memories of children are really not Jewish. I know that sounds funny in the context of the world in which we live today, but we did not separate by Jewish and non Jewish in those days. I happened to know the Hirshbergs and we were very, very close indeed, but if they lived somewhere else there was no closeness. PICKELNER: You didn't play with them. KROLOFF: No. Beth Israel wasn't organized on that basis in those days and there were no real lines. I know there was anti-Semitism, don't misread me on that, but I never felt a party to that or a part of that. You just hung around with the guys you knew and the girls you knew, and you dated the girls, I mean later on. I don't mean to mix up the time sequences. There just wasn't that. Like later on in high school I remember we used to go to all the dances. They were over in the Mormon Church which was right near North Phoenix High School. So there was no discriminating in terms of with whom you associated. Obviously you associated with the kids that were the kids of your parents' friends, like Bobby Feffer and I are friends. I didn't know Bud as well, because Bud was older and Bobby and I were the same age. I know Bud very well, though. I didn't mean it just that way. It was a relaxed, easy kind of thing. There were prejudices. I remember a number of them. For example, later when you were older and dating, we used to go up to the Arbor, which was on the canal on Central Avenue. Well, from the early days you had prejudices. Your folks did not allow you to go north of the canal as a kid. And the reason you couldn't go north of the canal was that's where all those people with tuberculosis were. They were up there and they had camps. some people lived In homes and bungalows and some in tents. You didn't really get to see that because, theoretically, you would roll up your windows in your car and go by. We were not allowed north of the canal, because of the fear of catching tuberculosis. Even to this day I feel strange when I go north of Northern Avenue. I feel kind of funny when I'm up In Sunnyslope like I want to get the hell out of there and that's some prejudice that I carry from those very early days. PICKELNER: That's very interesting. KROLOFF: We spent a lot of time In the train station in those days. PICKELNER: Tell about that. KROLOFF: I know that sounds strange, but trains were real important to Phoenix. In the first place, my father's business was much associated with shipping grain by rail. Therefore, he had personal relations with the various executives of the Southern Pacific. The SP was the main deal. The Santa Fe came down from the north, but the SP went east and west. In any event, he knew all the guys and he always got the best berth and the best this, because he knew somebody. But you were always either picking up somebody or dropping somebody off at the train. I remember when I went to college, and that's not forever ago, I was sent on the train. My father didn't believe that I should have a car when I went away to college and nobody drove me over there. You got on the train and got off at Claremont. I remember doing that. But I remember getting on the train with my mother and my sister and so forth. In the summer she used to get shipped off to Laguna Beach or Santa Monica or one of those places. That's when you did the shopping for the year, but also your dad would come over on the weekends and usually drive the car. But It was considered a hell of a long drive and If you've ever taken the old road. I took it a lot of times. My father was a partner of a man by the name of Bill Whitman from Yuma, who was a rancher and farmer and so forth. They had a Joint deal in Blythe, so I used to take that trip with my dad all the time. You'd put the canvas water bag up In front of the radiator and head for Blythe. You'd go through Wickenberg and then Salome and Wenden and all those towns. God, It was awful. PICKELNER: It was a hard, hot trip. KROLOFF: I can remember Shefflers Café In Salome today as well as I would know the word Durants In Phoenix. You stopped at Shefflers and then, If you went on to LA, you crossed that pass. You know, the wind blows from behind you when you cross the Indio Pass. People who were not familiar with that didn't know how to drive. That creates a vacuum In front of your radiator, so you used to see the people who didn't know what they were doing with their cars all steaming and everything. You'd go by them and then you'd stop at the San Souci Restaurant in Indio because they made Ice coffee. They froze the coffee Into coffee cubes, so the ice coffee was twice as strong. I don't know why I'm telling you all this silly stuff. But, most of our friends went back and forth to LA and they all did this. They all stopped at Shefflers in Salome and you could see them there. They'd all stop at the San Souci in Indio and then, you know, it was an awful drive - just awful. But we made it more often than most because of my dad's business. PICKELNER: What was your dad's business? KROLOFF: He was In the seed business and the grain business. But In Blythe they were farming. They were growing Bermuda grass seed. You may not know this, Dorothy, but my dad and Allen Rosenberg were long-time business partners. PICKELNER: Yes, I knew that. It was called the Seed and Feed. KROLOFF: And grain and all that stuff. You know, all those old relationships, like Aubrey Grouskay Is a typical example. Aubrey and my father were good friends. That's why Jerry Lewkowitz and I are friends. You know, Jerry Lewkowitz Is a neighbor, too. The Lewkowitzes lived on Palm Lane, right down from the Snells. Nona Lou and Burton and Jerry and I all, you know, were kind of like kids together. But we didn't necessarily socialize. You socialized with your pals. Like, my best friends were Bobby Korrick, who happened to be Jewish, and Pete Eldridge. Pete Eldridge was one of the old, strong Catholic families from St. Mary's. They went to St. Mary's. Pete and I were extremely close, I mean really close. We had a bunch of friends who used to go down on Van Buren and get drunk and get In fights and all those silly things that you did. I remember very few Jewish friends in those days. PICKELNER: There weren't too many Jews in Phoenix. KROLOFF: Not really. But you didn't care one way or another. And nobody else cared one way or another, except people who were really devoted to Judaism, like my mother and like my father and like Jerry's father. You became devoted to Judaism by Just sitting around the dining room table and arguing about Hitler and those kinds of things and philosophizing about Zionism. You may remember that my dad was president of the Temple when Rabbi Krohn was hired. Hired - I don't like that term; whatever the term is. Rabbi Krohn was very, very close to our family. We were really close. It was a very close relationship. Of course, he brought an aura and an era with him in terms of Judaism. He really, singlehandedly, had more Impact, I believe, on the Jewish and non-Jewish community than any man has ever been In this community, before or since. I don't know of anybody who engendered such -- I mean, a lot of people really thought he was awful and couldn't stand his sermons because he was so intellectual that he was above everybody's head. I mean, he went right over your head. He was a very dramatic speaker and all that kind of thing. But, damn, he did wonders for this community. He made this Jewish community what it is. He really did. All these people who have come since who shouldn't know or give a damn about Rabbi Krohn- have to tip their hat to somebody who blazed their trail. These guys like Harry Rosenzweig and my dad and Allen Rosenberg, Herman Lewkowitz and the Korricks and the Diamonds - these guys really blazed trails for these people. That's why this town Is so open. I mean, this is an open town. There were prejudices here. You know, in the old days you never saw a black guy or a Mexican at the Palms Theater. PICKELNER: All segregated? KROLOFF: They were not allowed. You know, Palms Theater was right across from Durants. They were not allowed In there. In high school days we used to hang out at the Central Drive-in, which is now gone. PICKELNER: Parks Theater. KROLOFF: Yeah. And kind of where Park Central -- is It Park Central? I hate the names of shopping centers - I can't think of the name of It. The one where Goldwaters is. Park Central is what it Is, I guess. PICKELNER: Yes. KROLOFF: All right. That's where the Central Drive-in was, kind of about In that area, and the Masonic Hall. Well, you just didn't see black kids or Mexican kids. But I learned to speak Spanish from the Mexican kids, because I worked with them in the summers. I used to ride in a truck with a guy by the name of Rico and with Jimmy Pope. We used to haul stuff for my dad. That's how I learned Spanish. But there was no socialization. I mean, there wasn't. The only thing I remember about black people is that there was a wonderful restaurant down near the river off of 7th Avenue. My mother and dad used to take us there and this black man had this great restaurant. That's all you saw, and you saw the wonderful black guys who were the waiters and the head guys at the Arizona Club. The Arizona Club In the early days when I was a kid - It was different than it is today. Today those clubs are kind of all the same. I mean, they're just a kind of expanded Denny' s they're awful, all of them. But, in the early days that was an important part of your social life. You went to the Arizona club and Burton took care of you and he knew your name. Jerry Goneaway (?) was the maitre d' and he was there forever and he knew everybody and took care of the kids. The food was wonderful. I guess by today's standards It wasn't, but In those days we thought It was. I'm kind of wandering. I think maybe you want to ask me some -- PICKELNER: No, that's fine. Well, now, this is what I wanted to hear about - what life was like. Now, what happened when you started to date girls really? KROLOFF: Well, you really didn't start to date girls til you went to high school. We went to North High. And that was a hell of a long ways from Palmcroft. Dick Snell and I would get on our bikes together every day and we would ride there. When you dated girls you just dated whoever was around. PICKELNER: Where did you go to high school? KROLOFF: North High. North Phoenix High School. We used to ride our bikes over there. I dated a girl by the name of Ruth Gottlieb who was Jewish and married Leonard Skomer. Ruth and I went out together a lot, for a couple of years,I guess. Where you went on dates was, you went to the -- and I dated a lot of other girls and so forth -- but, you went to the Central Drive-in and you just kind of hung around. You'd go to movies, but I mean you didn't go to cocktail lounges and you didn't do that kind of thing that you do now. I don't know which Is better, I'm not saying one's better or worse. And you hung around people's houses. There were a lot of parties. PICKELNER: House parties? KROLOFF: Yeah, lots of them. There's a restaurant currently in a home that we used to spend a lot of time in. I dated a girl by the name of Margie Peck. Margie lived across the street from the Spitalnys. We used to spend a lot of time at the Spitalny's house. I later dated Natalie, you know, Larry Spitalny's sister. Larry's an eye physician here. We'd spend a lot of time at the Spitalny's house. It was a big, old Spanish house. It's now called the -- some kind of restaurant -- Victorls. That was the Spitalny's house and we used to date over there and have parties. We had a lot of parties at Bob Korrick's house way up on North Central. He had a swimming pool and that was a big deal in those days. We'd swim In the afternoons and Just go out with girls. Also, guys hung out a lot in those days. It was a lot different. It wasn't an imperative thing that you dated girls. Today, it seems to be an imperative thing. PICKELNER: They're afraid to hang out with guys. KROLOFF: I guess so. In those days you didn't do that. The guys all hung out together and we did all bad things. You know, steal bread from the bread trucks and use them as beds in the orange groves. We used to sleep in the orange groves at night. The guys would go out and drink beer or they'd talk or, you know. People with cars, we used to all fiddle with cars. So, it wasn't the last end of the world that you didn't have a date Saturday night. Who gave a damn? You just went somewhere else or you went out with the guys. PICKELNER: Wonderful. KROLOFF: We had a great sadness in that my best friend, Bobby Korrick, died. I was a freshman in college when he died. PICKELNER: What happened to Bobby? KROLOFF: Some strange disease. I guess only -- of course, Alan is not living -- I guess Patty Korrick would be the only one -- Patty Lewkowitz -- would be the only one who could tell you exactly what the disease was. Joe Ehrlich was the doctor, I remember that. He was considered a genius when he first came here. Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't, I don't know. You know, medical practice was different in those days. St. Joseph's Hospital was on 3rd Street and, god, it was a pile of junk. You know, everything was different then. We didn't have modern facilities. You got to remember that when I went to high school this town had 40,000 people. PICKELNER: Phoenix had 40,000 people? KROLOFF: That's it - about. That was it. So, we didn't have -- there was an obstetrician or two and there was a -- you know, we didn't have all that stuff. So you got along without it just fine. And the things of travel were important in those days, because going to LA was a big deal, going to New York, if you did that once in a while, was a great big deal. My memories of the Jewish community aren't very solid, because it just wasn't -- we didn't have a Jewish Community Center. If any new kid came to Kenilworth and he was wearing knickers, you know, he got laughed out of town. PICKELNER: You all just wore blue jeans? KROLOFF: We wore Levi's and they weren't called blue jeans. Today, they're called blue jeans, but they had to be Levi's. They couldn't be Lee's and they couldn't be some other brand, they were Levi's. If some kid had just come here from New York, why, poor guy, I feel sorry for him. But, of course, the impact of the people who came here is what has made this a wonderful community and I'm not critical in that regard. I'm the opposite as a matter of fact. We didn't have the arts. They were not here. There was Mrs. Archer E. Linde. PICKELNER: Yes. Talk about her. She was a friend of mine, too. KROLOFF: She was wonderful and, God bless her heart, a tough old broad. You went to Phoenix Union High School, the auditorium I mean, to see the ballet or to see an orchestra. PICKELNER: Mrs. Archer Linde. I knew her well. KROLOFF: Oh, she was wonderful. She'd get up there and whether it was ballet or whether it was theater or whether it was a musical -- PICKELNER: What did she do? Was she an entrepreneur? KROLOFF: She was an entrepreneur, but she was not an entrepreneur in terms of., "I'm going to make a million dollars." She was an entrepreneur only in the respect that she was going to take this country town and give it culture. That was her thing. She used to get up there and, you know, some troupe would be here from New York - I don't know what the hell it was - and at intermission she'd get up -- I remember this so well as a kid -- and she'd just berate the audience, because there was no symphony in our town - we didn't have one - there was no ballet, there was no theater, there was no anything. Worst of all, there was no place to hold anything, except Phoenix Union High School Auditorium, which, to us, looked like the biggest thing in the world. I used to think, "What's the matter with you, old lady, we're sitting here in this wonderful hall." And it wasn't; it was awful, you know, inadequate. But I didn't know that. my mother, and all the mothers -not just my mother -- you'd see all the kids squirming in those seats, because all the mothers were going to make them culturally more aware than they were and the only way to do that was by the productions that Mrs. Linde brought. So, she was a remarkable woman and made a heavy Impact on this town. Everybody was critical of her all the time for being so bitchy, but she was great. I didn't realize it til -- I'm fifty years old and finally realize it. So, you Just didn't give a damn about art and you didn't give a damn about music. PICKELNER: Because you were not educated to. KROLOFF: That's right. And you didn't care and your teachers didn't give a darn. At some times I wonder if we shouldn't still be that way, but I'm not really sure about that. So, you learned differently than as if you had grown up-in New York City or If you'd grown up in Los Angeles. This was a struggle some area and I remember the men talking about the need for museums and the need for this and the need for that. It kind of just didn't happen until the town physically grew with people and, of course, that's the great contribution of the people who moved here from the East Is that If It had been up to the guys that were here they probably still wouldn't care. They brought culture, they brought arts. PICKELNER: The Easterners brought that? KROLOFF: They brought culture, they brought arts, they brought the desire for better schools. We had good schools, I guess, but even in those days the best schools were in Mesa. PICKELNER: Mesa? KROLOFF: Oh, yeah, always had the best schools, because they seemed to care more. As a matter of fact, Rabbi Krohn, you know, served on the -- he got a lot of hell for this, a lot of criticism -- for serving on the Phoenix School Board. He ran for the school board and was elected, because he cared about education and lots of the Temple people really thought that was awful. PICKELNER: That's interesting. KROLOFF: I thought it was great. He got a lot of criticism for that, he really did. But it was a good thing that he did. He helped improve the Phoenix school systems. But, of course, our school systems here were segregated in their own way. PICKELNER: Definitely. In the old days wasn't there just George Washington Carver for the blacks? KROLOFF: That's right. But even segregated among the white. By that I mean all the rich kids were going to Madison School. You know, the poor kids were going to Kenilworth. Schools developed, as you know, as a result of having formed by population centers and later the city grew and, therefore, the city school system never grew, which was okay. We had those 18 independent school districts, or 80, or whatever it is. PICKELNER: Now, the so-called rich kids went to -- KROLOFF: Wherever the nice neighborhoods were they went to the schools in those neighborhoods. Therefore, you had a natural segregation. There weren't any Mexicans up there. I remember all my liberal friends when we moved to happen to be a conservative; my wife considers me a bleeding heart liberal -- but, In any event, I remember when we moved to Texas, and this is current, really, it's not part of this -- at that time schools were being desegregated and all these friends of mine in the Madison School District were saying, "Well, it's about time for the south -- " and blah blah, you know, and how wonderful It is. But they never moved to Waco, Texas like I did. I got to Waco and my children were in black schools. I thought back and I said, "Hey, I'm so glad you guys are all so thoughtful about all this." There aren't any black kids in the Madison School District. Easy for you. Nice for you. They were totally off-base. PICKELNER: That's very interesting. KROLOFF: They were totally off-base and had no concept of what it was like to -- because there weren't any black kids in Phoenix. They didn't come north of McDowell Road. And neither did the Mexican kids. I'm color blind, so it's not an issue with me. I'm just bringing it up for a part of what Phoenix was like in those days. PICKELNER: They didn't come north of McDowell. KROLOFF: I'm using that descriptively. It may have been Thomas Road. You'll remember that the Goldwaters were the first people who hired a black person in their store to work for them. PICKELNER: It was a great shock to me coming from the East to find segregating - that kind of segregating. KROLOFF: We were really segregated, and it included the Mexicans. The word Mexican is today Latin, I guess. I don't know what the word is. So, it was a different town. Growing up I had no black friends, I had no Latin friends, zero. Very few Jewish friends, but I didn't care. Nobody cared. PICKELNER: Nobody cared. KROLOFF: Nobody cared. PICKELNER: Well, I guess somebody cared, because eventually they got -- KROLOFF: Oh, sure, your mother was always on your rear about dating Jewish girls, but you never did that. I happened to date Ruth Gottlieb, but that was because she was the best looking girl in town. PICKELNER: All right. Tell me about how you picked your wife and how you met and so on. KROLOFF: My wife's father's name was Sam Rich. His wife's name was Sarah - I never knew his wife. They were very early time Arizonans. Sam worked in the drug store owned by Allen Rosenberg as a pharmacist. Then he later went on -- this was in the 30's or 40's, I'm not sure which, I'm bad on dates -- he later went on to own a bunch of pharmacies - Solano Pharmacy, Melrose Pharmacy, a whole bunch of them. PICKELNER: Sam Rich? KROLOFF: Yes. Jerri went to Emerson School and also went to North Phoenix High School, but we really didn't know each other in those days. I didn't care one way or another If I knew her and I'm sure she was the same with me. Anyway, just after I got out of the Service and had come home from Korea, Jerri's mother had died and Jerri at that time was a United Airlines stewardess. She had gone to USC and all that kind of stuff. Rose Rosenberg asked me to host a party at Jerri's house. At that time I was engaged to a girl from Los Angeles and Jerri was engaged to some guy here. We met and started dating and she went off to Europe or something and I went somewhere -- I don't even remember. Later, we decided, I guess, we ought to get married. So, we did. Anyway, Rose Rosenberg fixed us up. PICKELNER: Oh, Rose Rosenberg fixed you up. KROLOFF: Yeah, right. But, Jerri's family is a long-time Phoenix family. she has two brothers, one named Paul and one named Morton. They did what I did. They were raised in the same era in which I was raised here. Jerri came here as a baby, when her father moved here. But, the old dating thing was a lot different in those days, particularly here. Your mother in those days didn't want you to know there weren't any Jewish girls around, or you didn't think there were. I'm sure the reverse, girls to boys. The mothers always insisted on dating Jewish girls. I mean, that was the thing you had to do. You know, they forced that on you almost. It was a real pain because you didn't like any of them. I have to reiterate. There was no Jewish community per se. It was a social community that existed, but all of the Jews of my father's age had as many friends in the non-Jewish community and they were not selective of that. That's kind of the way it was. So, you know, all this stuff we have now - 400 temples and all these 39,000 Jewish organizations and all this are wonderful, but they just weren't here. They're wonderful, and God bless them, and we should have more of them and all of that, but they Just weren't around. PICKELNER: You have no daughters. You have four sons? KROLOFF: I have four sons. PICKELNER: They sound wonderful. KROLOFF: They are. They range in age from 31 to 14. PICKELNER: Are any of them married? KROLOFF: Yes. My third down son, who is 25, Adam, is married. That's kind of a cute story if you want to hear it. PICKELNER: Yes. KROLOFF: He is married to a girl named Marquetta Piclakova. My son, Adam, went to school in Switzerland for a year in Lugano. His class was going to Czechoslovakia for a tour. The president of the college liked Adam and he said, "Hey, I know this person who is living in Italy, in Milano, and maybe you ought to go meet this person, because she's from Czechoslovakia and she could give you some kind of things to think about while you're in Czechoslovakia." He met her and, of course, they fell in love and they're married. But, she is a political defector from Czechoslovakia who -- PICKELNER: She's a Czech? KROLOFF: Yes, a political defector who was granted political asylum in Italy, so she's a very interesting girl and very Interesting story. She's very beautiful. She's a hat model in Italy and a translator. She speaks eight languages fluently and is a -- it's not like a Ph.D. and It's not an M.A.; it's somewhere in between that -- from the University of Prague. So, I have as a daughter-in-law a political defector. This is really kind of an interesting story. She's not Jewish, but she's not anything, because nobody is, of course, Jews were very prominent in the history of Czechoslovakia and there aren't any now. There are no Jews. So, anyway, that's the story. It's kind of interesting. PICKELNER: Well, Kirk, you mentioned having come back from Korea, but would you tell us something about your war experiences, because I think those play an important part. Tell what happened to your guys, you know, from that period. KROLOFF: I was going to Claremont Men's College and I graduated from Claremont and it was a matter of either you enlisted or you got drafted. It was during the Korean War. So, I chose to enlist and I enlisted in the Marine Corps made my mother mad as hell. She thought that was the world's worst thing to do, and it probably was. I eventually wound up in Korea as a platoon leader and got out -- you know, it was during the time, as the war was winding down they had truces on the demilitarized zone and the 38th Parallel. It was during that period of time that I was there. I was a captain when I got out of the Marines. PICKELNER: Back to Korea. You spent all your time there? KROLOFF: No. I spent about six months in Japan and the rest of the time in Korea. PICKELNER: How long were you there altogether? KROLOFF: Oh, gosh, It seemed like a couple years, a year and a half, something like that. Maybe a year and a half. I don't know, I don't keep good track of that and I'm not very good at telling war stories, but anyway, my mother was glad to see me come back. PICKELNER: Was this after the war? KROLOFF: It was during. PICKELNER: During and after the war? KROLOFF: It was during. PICKELNER: Were any of your buddies in the war with you? KROLOFF: From Phoenix, not a soul. I was the only Jewish guy I knew during my whole time in the Marine Corps, although I developed very close personal friends that are still very close personal friends of mine from the Marines. We had an unusual thing In our company. We had one guy from Stanford. I was from Claremont. We had two from Yale and one from Columbia that were the officers. So, it was a bright bunch of guys and nice guys. All of us have retained some semblance of friendship. You'll get a smile out of this. Just last week I went to the 40th reunion of our North Phoenix High School class. PICKELNER: This is 1988 - 40th reunion of North Phoenix. KROLOFF: From a Jewish point of view, the Lipows were there you may remember the Lipow family. PICKELNER: Yes. KROLOFF: Celeste is younger, this is Edna Lipow. Paul Lewinthal, and let me think who else was Jewish that was there -- oh, Bobby Feffer. Bobby was there, Bobby and Virginia, his wife. We've been friends for many years, you know. I'm trying to think if there was anybody else I remember that was Jewish that was there. I don't think so. Paul Lewinthal and his wife, Bobby Feifer, and Edna Lebeau (sic). I don't remember any other Jewish -- PICKELNER: Edna Lebeau. KROLOFF: Lipow. L-i-p-o-w. PICKELNER: Edna Lipow, yeah. I got that. KROLOFF: Her brother was a very well-known physician here, a pediatrician. He went on to do highly regarded research or something, I don't know. It's out of my field. So, anyway, it was fun seeing -- now, that class is the one -those were kids I grew up with. I hate reunions; this is the last one I'll go to, but the odd thing about that was that most of the kids talked more about their grammar school days. See, we'd all either gone to Emerson or Kenilworth or Osborn or one of those schools together, so it really kind of segregated itself out by grammar school, rather than by high school. It was kind of strange. It was a mixed bag of kids -- the same mixed bag that we grew up with. PICKELNER: You sort of identified -- KROLOFF: Yeah, right. Everybody was horrified with the old looking, including me, and all of that stuff. You kind of identified beyond the high school. You went all the way back and talked about grammar school times, which Is really strange. PICKELNER: What else would you like to discuss, Kirk? What about the prospects? You're back in Phoenix now after 19 years in Texas. KROLOFF: I see a different community here than we grew up with and a better community, because the arts particularly. Phoenix is as ugly as it always was, it's just not pretty. The mountains are beautiful, but it's -- PICKELNER: The city probably grew up. KROLOFF: It's flat and it's poor architecture and it's dull. Essentially, everybody here is like from mid-Kansas. I mean, it's not a sparkling -- the history isn't very exciting. It's not colorful like Texas is. I don't mean to be a Texan in that remark, but it's not colorful. But, the change in the Jewish community is just unbelievable, just remarkable. Today, I suppose if you wanted to segregate yourself only into the Jewish community you could do that and be very comfortable, and never associate other than that. In other words, if my mother today said, "You can only date Jewish girls", you'd sure as hell find them. You know what I mean? They're here. PICKELNER: You're still griping about that. KROLOFF: Still griping about that. PICKELNER: They're still dogs. KROLOFF: But there are many, many, many temples and many, many active Jewish community things, doing a better job than we did. These people are impacting -- I'm on the board now of the ballet, for example. I serve on the board of the ballet, which is one of the four major boards, as you know, four major art forms, and I'm on that board. It's struggling like all -- I remember working on the symphony in the old days and I remember working on the art museum in the old days when I was active in all that stuff. This one person here in town who's Jewish who just thought I did the most awful thing in the world by allowing my child to go to Brophy, to which I said, "Screw yourself" because, you know, I think he's wrong. I flat think he's wrong. PICKELNER: Are your kids Jewish in any sense? KROLOFF: Oh, in every sense. I mean, in every sense. Absolutely. PICKELNER: They know they're Jews? KROLOFF: I'm very unhappy about a certain thing. When my son went to get married to Marquetta, who is not Jewish, who is not anything, he couldn't find a rabbi that would marry them. I came through the damn ceiling, because I remember Harry Rosenzweig with the same problem. I'm telling private stories -- Harry and Margie were married in my folks living room because there were problems relating to his marrying somebody who wasn't Jewish. That made me mad as hell. In any event, here's my son couldn't find a rabbi In that entire city of San Francisco where they live -- he goes to Hastings Law School up there -- and we finally found a guy. He was kind of like a Hillel guy. He was associated with some association rather than a practicing rabbi. PICKELNER: He was not a congregational rabbi? KROLOFF: Right. But my son would absolutely not be married unless married by a rabbi in a very traditional way. So, you ask me the question, "Are my children Jewish?" Boy, are they Jewish - absolute. Have they ever dated Jewish girls? Well, yeah, some, and not. You know, just kind of is just a rehash. But at least it's here. And this was here because of all those people I'm somewhat critical who came here. Thank God for them because they've made this community nicer. I don't like the idea of -- I'm kind of opposed to -how do I say this? There's no nice way to say this. I'm opposed to -- PICKELNER: Segregation? KROLOFF: Yeah, right. I'm really kind of opposed to this business of like neighborhoods that are Jewish or people who only associate with Jewish people. I hate all that stuff. I think that's goofy. I really think it's goofy. It's like my son, Adam, and my son, Reed, both went to St. Francis grammar school, and currently my son, Noah, goes to Brophy. I send Noah to Brophy. PICKELNER: Why do you do that? KROLOFF: Well, because number one, he doesn't speak the English language coming from Texas. I think he's going to get a better shot at much more structured schooling there. He went to Madison for his eighth grade and I like what goes on In Jesuit schools. PICKELNER: Your kids all went to Jesuit schools? KROLOFF: Well, just two of them and only for a couple years at St. Francis, which was, you know, the grammar school associated with Brophy. But, I saw it in Texas and here and I just like what goes on there. I caught hell from a friend of mine for doing that. I really did. He's a new like normal, do and don't. I can tell you that in Corpus Cristi and Waco, Texas there aren't many Jewish kids. My son, Reed, who went to Yale, there was an immense amount of Jewish kids in Yale and so he dated Jewish girls. PICKELNER: Yes. Now especially. KROLOFF: Sure. I mean, a tremendous Jewish population. Two of my boys went to Claremont like I had done, and there's a large Jewish population in Claremont, although there aren't many girls there. The University of Texas where they also went has a very large Jewish population. But, yeah, they're Jewish, absolutely. Am I a member of a temple here? Well, no. Why not? Well, I don't find a comfort level yet. That's pretty bad, because, you know, my father was a president and one of the founders and all of that stuff of Temple Beth Israel. I'm a very, very good friend of Chuck and Barbara Herring, personally. of course, I feel close to Rabbi Plotkin. By the way, my father was the rabbi hirer, wasn't he? You know, both Rabbi Krohn, Rabbi Fierman and Rabbi Plotkin he was the president at the time that they hired all three rabbis. But, in any event, Rabbi Plotkin and I are very close, good friends and Sylvia and I, and my wife - I don't mean to exclude Jerri. But, I don't find a comfort level there and I don't find it in what I've seen around. That's my own problem, not the problem of the Jewish community, and I recognize that. I served on the board of the Temple in Corpus Cristi, for example. PICKELNER: You did? KROLOFF: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And was responsible for the acquisition of the rabbi that is there now. He happened to be a friend of a friend and, you know, It's all that complicated stuff. PICKELNER: Well, there are so many congregations. You may find a rabbi In a congregation that you -- KROLOFF: I'm sure I will, but that's my problem, not the community's problem -- PICKELNER: Where do you live now? KROLOFF: -- The community has just expanded substantially. I live at 4701 East Sierra Vista, which is - if you can picture this, Dorothy - I'm a block north of Lincoln and a block west of Tatum. Can you picture that in your mind? PICKELNER: Yes. KROLOFF: It's kind of in the desert up there. PICKELNER: 4701 East Sierra Vista. KROLOFF: See, that goes to show you what a real change has occurred in Phoenix. In the old days, when you were a kid, you didn't want anything to do with the desert. I mean, god, you wanted to be down there where there were green lawns and palm trees and the coolness of that, because that was the only cooling there was. Now, I consider the most desirable part of Phoenix that which is the opposite, which is in the desert. You know, during the World War there was some interesting things that went on. You know, they had German prisoners here when I was a kid. They used to trim the palm trees around the neighborhood of Encanto. German prisoners of war were here. PICKELNER: Were they in Phoenix? KROLOFF: Oh, yeah. PICKELNER: I didn't know that. KROLOFF: Oh, yeah. There was a whole prisoner of war camp here. It was not in town. It was just outside of town somewhere - I don't remember exactly. They used those prisoners to come trim the palm trees In the city. I remember them on our front lawn, and you know, my mother wouldn't let me go outside the door to look at them. She would have liked to have shot them all, and rightfully so. But anyway, they did do that. It was kind of interesting. And I saw those Japanese relocation camps, too. PICKELNER: Oh, yes. KROLOFF: You see, they were near Casa Grande. My dad's business had a branch in Casa Grande and so we would go by there and you'd see those people. God, that was awful. You talk about a terrible place to live - it's still terrible. But, we saw those things and that wasn't very nice. The German prisoners were awful. PICKELNER: Were they? KROLOFF: Yeah, they were really awful. PICKELNER: Why? KROLOFF: Just my own mental image of them. PICKELNER: Yes. You were afraid of them. KROLOFF: No, I wasn't afraid of them, but we just knew what they had done. PICKELNER: Yes. KROLOFF: And there they were trimming our palm trees. PICKELNER: Do you think knowing what the Germans had done to the Jews, I mean the whole Holocaust bit, do you think that changed your attitude about being Jewish? KROLOFF: No, probably not, because I already was Jewish. Did it enforce things? Yeah, I'm sure it did. Like, for example, one of the few things I give money to is the Simon Weisenthal Foundation, because I believe strongly in the things that it is doing, you know, the historical things that it's doing and the current fighting of anti-Semitism, but basically the historical things that it has done. Yeah, I suppose that it reinforced or enforced or something like that, but I had never any doubts about Judaism in my life and I don't think any of the Jewish kids that I grew up with here, there was no question in their minds about being Jewish or not being Jewish. PICKELNER: They were Jewish. KROLOFF: They were Jewish kids and I'm sure there was no question In the minds of our friends, most of whom were not Jewish. I mean, like there were a bunch of Mormon kids that we ran around with. There wasn't any questions about what you were or what you weren't. PICKELNER: It's very democratic. KROLOFF: Yeah, but everybody learned from everybody else. I mean, it was not that kind of thing. So, I'm no stronger today than I was then. Prouder? Well, I suppose the emergence of Israel makes one feel more proud, but not any more Jewish. Did I answer that the way -- I mean, I'm not trying to answer it the way you want me to answer, but did I answer your question? PICKELNER: Yes. Is there anything else that you remember in the way of some cute incidents or stories that -- KROLOFF: Oh, God, I didn't prepare. I'm sure there were a million of them. No. PICKELNER: You know, about life in Phoenix. KROLOFF: I remember Phoenix not being affluent. In a general way I remember much less affluence. By that I mean, even though there were large homes around the Phoenix Country Club -- Eddie Korrick, for example, lived on 7th street and, of course, his house was not in the country club grounds because they didn't have Jews in the country club In those days. To this day I would not join the Phoenix Country Club for that reason, but that's my own prejudice. In any event, I just remember less affluence. Everywhere I look today everybody's rich, everybody -- I know this isn't true because I just don't go west of 19th Avenue and that's where 90 percent of what isn't rich lives. I understand that. By the way, you never did in the old days either. PICKELNER: Money didn't matter. KROLOFF: That isn't what I meant. I meant, you never went much west of 15th Avenue. PICKELNER: Oh, 15th Avenue in your time was -- KROLOFF: That was kind of -- over there is where those other funny people lived, whoever they were. You just didn't do that because it was not very nice. But, what I'm saying is, everywhere you look today there is just an Incredible number of signs of affluence. PICKELNER: Now? KROLOFF: Yes. Retailing, you know, these big shopping centers. People Just totally inundating malls and stores. PICKELNER: There was never a great difference in the old days between those people who had more money and lived In bigger houses and the kids who were less affluent. KROLOFF: No. There was less segregation of that in those days. Like, I told you my two best friends were Pete Eldridge, who I mean was poor Irish Catholic going to St. Mary's, my father, who was moderately successful, and the Korricks, who In those days were considered the big wealthy people. we were all together all the time, slept at each other's houses and did all those things. Well, today, because I guess of the vastness in mileage, I don't know what it Is, you just -- I don't know, it's just almost too affluent. It really is. Maybe I'm an old son of a bitch and I don't mean to act like one, because I hope that my mind Is better than that, but like these video arcades that you see today - I really think that kick the can is better than a video arcade. I really do. That's a matter of affluence to a degree. Genera shorts or shirts. All kids wear Genera. PICKELNER: Who cares? KROLOFF: Yeah, right. And they're very oriented towards that. And I think that's great. I mean, I love all that and I don't discourage that in Noah, but everybody wore the same crappy Levi's when I was a kid. That doesn't make us better or -- we certainly were not as enriched. I know we weren't as enriched, but there's something very good about that, there's something very basic about playing kick the can. I mean, there really is. You learn all about the rules and doing that. You know, you learn about it in a different way. Time was less of an Issue, and there's the serious consideration today of dope and all that kind of silly stuff. That's another reason why I have Noah at Brophy. I'm not worried about Noah. I just don't like what goes on. And it's this awful affluence somehow. Sure, I mean all of us want to be rich. PICKELNER: It's corrupted us all, I think. KROLOFF: To a degree. And what was a nice, small, little old town is now a major city full of all this stuff. So, I have this conflict. Is it better to have the ballet, the symphony, the art museum and the library? Or is it better to play kick the can, as I say? I'm not sure. PICKELNER: You don't think we can have both? KROLOFF: No. I know my children don't want to live in Phoenix. PICKELNER: They don't? KROLOFF: No. PICKELNER: Where do they want to live? KROLOFF: Anywhere else. The south. PICKELNER: Is it because they never grew up here? KROLOFF: They did grow up here. PICKELNER: Where were they born? KROLOFF: Well, three of them were born at St. Joseph's Hospital. PICKELNER: Oh. KROLOFF: Ben Herzberg -- you know, this is really funny. You'll get a story. How old is Ben now? 90? I don't know how old Ben is. Ben was no longer an obstetrician, he had become an anesthesiologist. He had quit obstetrics. Jerri would not have our first baby unless Ben was there. She went to a totally different obstetrician. She was going to Dr. Ed Sattenspiel, who was a good guy. PICKELNER: What happened to him? KROLOFF: I don't know. He still practices. And she went to a Dr. Jones, but she would not have the baby unless Ben Herzberg was there. You talk about old time Phoenix. I mean, you just didn't have a baby unless Ben delivered the baby. So, there's that. So, no, three of my children were born at St. Joseph's. PICKELNER: Well, what's your farewell message to us? KROLOFF: I talk too much. PICKELNER: Oh, I think it was very interesting. KROLOFF: And I wandered around on some stuff that you probably didn't want. PICKELNER: Oh, that was fine. Where are your kids going to go? KROLOFF: Well, I have one who is an attorney now and he lives in Los Angeles. I have one who is in law school in San Francisco. I have one who is a professor here at Arizona State. PICKELNER: How interesting. What does he teach? KROLOFF: Architecture. PICKELNER: Oh, really. KROLOFF: He's the one who went to Yale undergraduate and then he went to College of Architecture. PICKELNER: Who is that? KROLOFF: His name is Reed. He went to architecture school at the University of Texas. The lawyer went to University of Texas law school. They find Phoenix just flat, flat, flat, uninteresting, dull, awful weather in the summer, and wonder why I lived here all those years. PICKELNER: You've got a good job now. You've got to stay here. KROLOFF: Oh, yeah. I came back because I had this job. I came back for Noah so that he could speak the English language. PICKELNER: How long have you been back now? KROLOFF: Just about a year and a half, two years. PICKELNER: Oh, you're just back. KROLOFF: Yeah, I'm just back. You don't have a native's feel here. I mean, there's nothing to tie one to this community anymore. PICKELNER: Still growing, still evolving. KROLOFF: That's right. I think that's all wonderful; I'm not critical of that, but the ties that bind are not here. How often do I see Dorothy Pickelner? At a board meeting. Why? Because she's off doing her thing and we're off doing our thing. so the ties that bound this community in early days, both Judaic and non, simply don't exist. You know, when we started that Men's Arts Council for the Phoenix Art Museum that became a very powerful group. Someday I'll discuss that. It's a separate issue. I mean, you got fingered for it. You were called by some people and said, "Now, you're going to serve." "Okay." We got behind It and that organization was incredible. Today, to find board members for some great city thing - that's a tough deal. PICKELNER: People are too busy with their own lives. KROLOFF: Easy for the Phoenix Jewish Historical Society because everybody likes that. That's nice. It's easy. It's nice. There's not a lot of work and it's a wonderful thing. There's no controversy involved; there's no competition like there is between the symphony and the ballet for the same dollars; none of that stuff. But there's no real community pride that existed in the early days. There just really isn't. PICKELNER: Do you think in Phoenix generally? KROLOFF: Yes, I think in Phoenix generally. Why should some guy who is 55 or 60 years old who moves out here from Columbus, Ohio - why should he give a damn about the ballet, the Arizona ballet, or the Temple? Why should he care about Temple Beth Israel? PICKELNER: Because he's Jewish and wants Jewish affiliations or because he's a community guy somewhere. KROLOFF: He's already done his thing in Columbus. So, he's a pretty hard guy. Yeah, he'll pay the minimum dues and he'll go to Temple twice a year and fill the symphony hall down there twice. But does he really give a damn about Temple Beth Israel? No. Those guys are all gone. PICKELNER: I wouldn't say that. KROLOFF: And much of the strength of the leadership isn't there and I can see it. PICKELNER: No leadership. You think that that's a weakness. KROLOFF: I really do. I see a substantial change, a substantial change. PICKELNER: That is in the general community and the Jewish community? KROLOFF No, not as much in the general. I think I see it in the Jewish community. PICKELNER: There are still guys who work and they work hard at it, but there aren't. enough of them. KROLOFF: And they're not as cohesive because of the size. PICKELNER: Well, Phoenix has grown so, you see, the families that live in the East valley and the families that live out here, they don't meet. KROLOFF: There's a big controversy going on at Beth Israel. I don't know anything about this northern satellite. I could make arguments on both sides of that issue. I could make arguments on both sides of the issue. But my basic argument is who gives a damn. In other words, if Beth Israel should go out of existence by virtue of the wrong location, let it be. They're not in business. This is not a business that needs to establish a branch store in order to exist. This is a religious institution. You see what I'm saying? PICKELNER: I certainly do. KROLOFF: I could make the argument on both sides. But, I find, because I've poked around - I still do my Christmas thing down at the salvation Army that I did years ago, and I do all that stuff - not Salvation Army, what is it called? The Goodwill. PICKELNER: Well, you're looking at it, Kirk, from someone who has just come back, who hasn't been associated. You have a great hiatus where you haven't had a continuous service and I think you probably would have somewhere else. KROLOFF: I view it from maybe a -- sometimes a third party view isn't a bad view. PICKELNER: You're outside looking in. KROLOFF: Exactly right. I served on the board in Corpus, the Temple board. We built a new temple and we hired a new rabbi and we did all that stuff. PICKELNER: Where? KROLOFF: In corpus Christi. So, you know, it's not as if I'm that removed from these affairs, because I went through all the arguments and we did it all. So, I'm not that removed from it. But I see here less quality of leadership. I don't know how to say that. Now, maybe out there at Temple Solel or something else I'm all wrong. Maybe at the Community Relations Council I'm all wrong and I can understand that - I just don't know. But I see a change in Temple Beth Israel. PICKELNER: Well, this has been most interesting, Kirk. I'm very delighted that we've had this opportunity to talk and I thank you. You've brought back some very interesting facts. We hope you get back and get integrated in the Phoenix community.