..inte: Sam Kiviat ..intr: Evanne Kofman ..da: 1985 ..cp: 1993.036.193 Second Temple Beth Israel, 1949 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Sam Kiviat January 24, 1985 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Evanne Kofman Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Sam Kiviat Pages 1-2 Sam and wife Rose came to Phoenix 1943 Herman/Hannah (Stein) Joy & Bill (Kiviat Children) 2 Joined Temple Beth Israel Rabbi A.L. Krohn Archie Kroloff Rabbi Jaffe 2-3 Impressions of Rabbi Krohn Rabbi A.L. Krohn Children joined religious school 4 Temple beth Israel membership Diamond family (description of congregation's Korrick family spirit and attitude) Henry Lesem 5 Sam's first Temple work with Building Fund Committee Charlie Korrick 5 Temple Beth Israel early locations 6 Temple services and activities Cecil Newmark Congregation Beth El Allen Rosenberg 7 Sam's election to Temple Board, 1944 As president of Temple Congregation Minyans (home) Religious school teachers Nat Silverman 8 As Chairman of Religious School Committee 8-9 Description of religious services in 1940's (Classical Reform Judaism") Rabbi Krohn 9 1949 new Temple built at 10th Avenue And Flower 9-10 Hiring of cantor Maurice Chessler 10-11 Summer services conducted by: Sam (Kiviat) & Nat Silverman 11-12 Building process of Temple Beth Israel at Flower & 10th Avenue (present location) 12-13 Some of the main contributors to Charlie Korrick Building fund Diamond family Herbert Stein 13 Other main contributors Rosenzweig family Reincorporation of Temple Beth Israel in 1945 & 1970 13-14 Women congregants worked too Nellie Diamond Alma Diamond Helen Diamond 14 Sale of old site on Culver Street (to Chinese Baptist congregation) Dedication of 10th & Flower new Temple building First services, Rosh Hashanah, 1949 Growth in membership (reflected growth of Phoenix community at large) 14-15 5 air bases in Phoenix area during war 15 Sam as Chairman of Temple Membership Committee 15-16 Membership application review practices 17 Temple Beth Israel cemetery Maurice Wormser 17 Hebrew Men's Club, 1930's 18 Congregation Beth El Harold Diamond 18 Cemetery committee Rabbi Herring Rabbi A.L. Krohn 18-19 Search for assistant rabbi Rabbi Fierman Harold Diamond Rabbi Fierman 19 Rabbinage built on Clarendon 20 Controversy in Temple over Rabbi Fierman and Mrs. Fierman Al Spector Temple split into Beth Israel and smaller group into Temple Shalom Fierman 21 A temporary rabbi (unnamed) Rabbi Krohn to rabbinical convention And meets Rabbi Albert Plotkin Rabbi Plotkin 21-22 Camp Saratoga (Estate of) Kathleen Norris 22 1955 arrival of Rabbi Plotkin in Rabbi A. Plotkin Phoenix Bill Kiviat 22 Rabbi Krohn becomes Rabbi Emeritus More reminiscences of Rabbi Krohn (sermons) 23 Rabbi Krohn's wife Eva Krohn Joyce Kiviat (daughter, with leukemia) 23-24 Services of Temple (under leadership of Rabbi Plotkin) changes Rose Kiviat 24 Re: Classical Reform Judaism Rabbi Eisendrath "Philosophizing" re Jewish liturgy, prayer books (Reform), etc. 25 Prayers: "Lecha Dodi" "B'Rosh Hashanah Hannah/Herman Stein 26 Early beginnings, Jewish Community Center and Jewish Federation Sam on board of Jewish Family and Children's Services 4th Street & Roosevelt site of first Jewish Community Council meetings Hirsh Kaplan 27 Why Sam dropped out of Community Council board Eli Gorodesky (Sam on Osborn School Board) 27-28 1963-64 and 1964-65 Sam as president Of Temple Beth Israel 28 Bicentennial Convention of Union of American Hebrew Congregations 28-29 "Philosophy" of Temple leadership and Temple membership, Judaic studies 29 Future Planning Committee (Beth Israel) 3 separate building fund drives for 3 Separate building stages on 10th Avenue and Flower site 30 Purchase of north parking lot of Temple Al Spector "Philosophy" re Temple Board Membership 30-31 "Outstanding Presidents" (per Phillip Copeland Kiviat), their attributes and Mal Straus leadership qualities Allen Rosenberg Harold Diamond Phillip Copeland Harry Rosenzweig 31-32 Decline of general congregation, Attendance at Temple services, etc. Dave Bush 33-34 Comparison of Sam's religious school training with religious school practices today; "Boys' Synagogues" (Junior Congregation in his boyhood) Dr. Bluestone Charlie Korrick Abe Korrick 35 Temple board meeting nights changed from Wednesday nights to Thursday nights because of a poker game Harold Diamond Charlie Korrick 36 "Korrick's Department Store 37 Sam as CPA in Arizona, difficulty in getting certification Little experience of anti-Semitism in Phoenix Camelback Inn 38 CPA (Ladies) Auxiliary Rose Kiviat Sam as organizing member of Kiwanis Closing Sam Kiviat Interview This is Evanne Kofman at the Arizona Jewish Historical Society. Today I'm going to be talking with Sam Kiviat, a very old friend, in his home at 918 West Verde Lane in Phoenix. The date today is January the 24th, 1985. KOFMAN: Sam, you've been a resident of Phoenix for many years. You've almost earned a nickname as Mr. Temple Beth Israel. I'd like you to tell me how you and your wife, Rose, decided to come to Phoenix and how you decided to join Temple Beth Israel. KIVIAT: Well, it was very simple. In 1941 Rose and I, together with an industrial organization from back East, made a month's trip, the whole month of May, out to the coast. We had one heck of a time stopping at many beautiful places. on the way here we stopped to go up to the Grand Canyon. Herman and Hannah, Rose's brother and sister-in-law, were already living here. Herman, at the time, was at the Veteran's Hospital up in Prescott. We called him on the phone and told him that we were here. Before that Herman had been in the Navy and he had been wounded and he was at a hospital in St. Albans, New York. He used to get passes for the weekend and he would come to our house for the weekend. We got to talking about things; we knew that he was coming out here for his health. He told us so many nice things about Phoenix that we decided that we were going to come out here. That was after 1941. It was during the war. We made up our minds in August of 1943. I quit my job and in the latter part of November Rose, Joy and Bill and I came to Phoenix. It was early on a Saturday morning; it was Friday night but early Saturday morning. They met us down at the railroad station; we couldn't come by plane then. We came in and we went to Hannah's home on Coronado and 5th Avenue and we stayed there. Before we left New York we had told our parents, Rose's and mine, that they need not worry about our remaining Jewish. Sunday morning, Rose and I and Joy and Bill went down to the temple. We didn't care whether it was Reform; we came from an Orthodox background. We went down to the temple and became members and enrolled Joy and Bill in the religious school. KOFMAN: Let me ask you a question. Did you decide to join Temple Beth Israel because that was the congregation that Hannah Stein and her husband- KIVIAT: It was a Jewish synagogue and I wasn't concerned about how I would practice my religion. KOFMAN: Who was the rabbi at the temple? KIVIAT: Rabbi Krohn. This was '43 and he had become the rabbi in 1939. He'd been the rabbi in Albuquerque and it was Archie Kroloff who was president of the temple at that time and he interviewed Rabbi Krohn and he was instrumental in having Rabbi Krohn succeed Rabbi Jaffe, who had resigned for health reasons. Rabbi Krohn came here with his wife to become the rabbi of Temple Beth Israel. KOFMAN: Can you tell me something about your impressions of Rabbi Krohn, what kind of person he was, in addition to being a rabbi --something about Rabbi Krohn, the man? KIVIAT: Rabbi Krohn was a good friend; we became friends. We were kind of close. He was sincere; he was intellectual; and he wanted things to be done on a high plane. You were able to know that from his sermons. He was very active in the community. KOFMAN: In what way was he active? KIVIAT: In civic affairs. Not only in Jewish affairs but also in civic affairs. He became very well liked in the community. over the years, as long as Rabbi Krohn remained as rabbi, and even after he became ill, we retained our friendship over the years. We joined the temple and Joy and Bill became students in the religious school. KOFMAN: How old were your children then? KIVIAT: Bill was six. Joy was born in '33 and this was in '43, so she was ten. On Monday we enrolled the children in Kenilworth School, so that they became full Phoenicians right off the bat. Joy was a very fine student. In fact, before coming here she had attended a religious school where we later learned that Leah Jaffe was one of the teachers; Rabbi Jaffe's older daughter. She knew Joy. This particular synagogue had a very fine day school with an excellent reputation. Joy was offered a scholarship in the day school but we hesitated to accept it because we didn't want one child to have the benefit of the special school and one child not to have it. KOFMAN: But here in Phoenix they both just went to temple religious schools? KIVIAT: Right. And Joy was far advanced of her class in religious school. She'd gotten a very good religious school training at the synagogue to which we belonged back in Far Rockaway. KOFMAN: Can you describe the make up of the congregation at the time, the type of families, the type of activities that were happening at that time at temple? KIVIAT: The temple was a very closely knit group of families. In fact, on January 4th when I spoke I referred to it as our temple family. KOFMAN: January 4th of this year? KIVIAT: Yes. I referred to it as our temple family and that was a feeling that was very hospitable. Everybody worked; it made no difference what their station or what their financial status was. Everybody pitched in and worked. When Sisterhood had an affair the Diamonds worked, the Korricks, everybody joined it. There was no status, no financial status. We had a membership of less than 100 members when I joined the temple. I was immediately drafted to do some work for the temple. Henry Lesem was the treasurer and he lived right across the street from Herman and Hannah. We met him Sunday morning. KOFMAN: What kind of work were you drafted to do immediately? KIVIAT: Well, he learned that I was an accountant and he immediately put me on to work on the building fund of the temple. In fact, in my records that I have stored away here I have the original contributors to the temple. I also have a letter from Charlie Korrick in early 1944 appointing me as a member of the Building Fund Committee. So I was on the first Building Fund Committee of the temple. KOFMAN: Now, tell me something about this temple building itself, because this was not the Temple Beth Israel that stands today. KIVIAT: No, it wasn't. The congregation, as you know, was formed in 1920. Originally, it used to meet in an office building on Central and Adams. They used to hold their meetings there. Then they finally were able to buy this building and they moved there and made that into the temple. KOFMAN: What street was that on? KIVIAT: That was on Culver Street between lst and 2nd Streets. They had small rooms for the religious schools. I have a picture of the religious school kids and it shows how few children there were in the religious school at the time. I don't know if the temple has a copy of that picture, but I do. KOFMAN: I would like to see it later. KIVIAT: I'll have to dig out a number of things for you that the temple doesn't have, but that I have. I got right into the thing. At that time the fiscal year of the congregation was August 31st and of course the financial statement had to be prepared and I prepared it for the temple. KOFMAN: I'm curious. Do you remember approximately what the overall temple budget was in those days? KIVIAT: I may have it in my records. KOFMAN: Because it certainly would be substantially greater now. KIVIAT: I have a number of boxes with temple records here with old membership lists and everything. KOFMAN: What kinds of social activities did the temple have? KIVIAT: The temple only met on Friday evenings. There were activities where they would have a dance or something and they would meet at the temple. We had a choir which was made up of outside people, not members of the congregation. I don't know whether this was after I joined the temple or before, but Cecil Newmark used to be the soloist for the temple choir. But of course he became a member of Beth El. Temple Beth El had split off and I didn't know about Temple Beth El when we joined. They were meeting down on 3rd Street; they had a building there. I was never in that old building of theirs. I've only been in the one they began to build on McDowell. To continue, Allen Rosenberg came to me and told me he would like to nominate me to be a member of the temple board. I was concerned, I was comparatively new. I said, "What assurance do I have that I would be elected?" He says, "Don't worry." I was elected to the temple board. From 1944 on I was either an elected member of the temple board or as a president and ex officio member of the temple board. KOFMAN: What years were you president of the congregation? KIVIAT: '63, '64 and '65. KOFMAN: Do you remember any particularly outstanding events or happenings at the temple that you could describe to us? KIVIAT: I can tell you this. It was a very closely knit membership. At that time if any member had a Yahrtzeit during the week or whatever date it would happen to be he was always assured of having a minyan at his home. Those are things that brought people more closely together; in sharing not only the pleasant, but also the occasions of remembrance. KOFMAN: Were most of the religious school teachers at that time from the congregation itself? KIVIAT: Yes. In fact, if I remember correctly, Nat Silverman was principal at the time. He had been here before. KOFMAN: Did you ever teach religious school? KIVIAT: I did one semester and I was also the chairman of the religious school committee for a couple of years. In fact I was practically chairman or a member of most all of the committees that the temple has. KOFMAN: Were the services that were conducted, say in the 1940's, substantially different than the services -- KIVIAT: They were. KOFMAN: Can you tell me what those differences are? KIVIAT: The difference was, although Rabbi Krohn came from an Orthodox background, he was more Classical Reform. KOFMAN: Explain that to me. KIVIAT: Well, in other words he did not like the Conservative or Orthodox synagogues, but he was the Classical Reform. Today, our temple is very far from being a Classical Reform temple. We're closer to Conservatism than we are to the Classical Reform. And I'm glad we are. I'm expressing my own opinion. I'm glad we are because it's a much more meaningful service. We only had services on Friday night. I don't think we had any on the holidays, like Passover or Shavuos or Sukkoth; at the three festivals. Rabbi Krohn used to take his vacation starting as soon as school was out in the beginning of June and didn't return until September. There were no services at the temple during those three months. Religion came to a halt. KOFMAN: However, if someone were to, as you mentioned before, have a Yahrtzeit, did the membership just generally by word of mouth, get together? KIVIAT: By word of mouth. The member who was going to have a Yahrtzeit would call up the people who he knew and there was no hesitation, he would always have a minyan. KOFMAN: What if there was a severe illness or a death; who took care of those services? KIVIAT: If there was a death, of course, Rabbi Krohn did it while he was here. KOFMAN: If he was not here? KIVIAT: When he was not here, I don't recall who did it. We really had nobody. KOFMAN: Did the congregation have a cantor or someone that performed the cantonal - KIVIAT: No, we did not have a cantor. It was Rabbi Krohn and a choir. It wasn't until 1949 when our temple was built up here on 10th and 11th Avenues that we obtained a cantor. I was instrumental in getting Morrie Chesier to become the cantor. He was working in the men's department of Korrick's. I knew that he had done some services for Beth El. I also knew that when it came to the holidays he used to arrange with a synagogue or a congregation in Los Angeles and he would go over there and conduct the holiday services for them. When I knew that we were going to have the temple up here and we wanted a choir -- KOFMAN: The temple on Flower? KIVIAT: The temple on Flower, yes. I went down to see Morrie and spoke to him and asked him whether he would want the position. I talked to him on the basis that if you're going to be the cantor here you don't have to leave the family or have the family go with you to Los Angeles; you could be here and with people whom you knew. He agreed. Should I tell you the salary he asked for and -- KOFMAN: That's up to you. KIVIAT: Maybe they should know because it was darn little. It was $600 a year. That's what he asked for and that's what we agreed to. KOFMAN: That was part time? KIVIAT: Only part time for Friday night and the holidays. I enjoyed Morrie. He does come from a Conservative background, not from a Reform background. But he knew the traditional music and everybody liked it. To this day they still do. KOFMAN: Can you tell me something about the activities that came about for the planning and construction of the new temple? KIVIAT: Before I go ahead with that -- with regard to religious services -- I went to Rabbi Krohn after I was here a couple of years. I couldn't understand it that religion takes a holiday because the rabbi takes off. I went to Rabbi Krohn and I said, "Rabbi, just because you take your vacation in June, July and August, what happens to our services? Why should they be stopped?" He says, "Well, what do you suggest we do about it?" I said, "I feel that we can have our Friday night services throughout the whole summer and between Nat Silverman and myself we can conduct the services." That's what we did. KOFMAN: That was a good solution. I gather that at no time did it occur to Rabbi Krohn to curtail his vacation? KIVIAT: No, not to curtail his vacation. And maybe he didn't feel that there was anybody qualified to do it. I felt I was. I know Nat Silverman is. KOFMAN: Didn't anyone ever feel that it was unusual for a rabbi to be gone for approximately one-fourth of the year? KIVIAT: Well, this was the makeup when they engaged him in 1939. I don't know what the discussions were but this must have been part of the agreement that was made with him. KOFMAN: Where would he go during those months? KIVIAT: He went back East to see his family. I met members of his family; I met his sisters, I met his brother, and we became friends. Even to this day my sister, who lives in Halendale, Florida, her very good friends are the Machatonim of Rabbi Krohn's niece and nephew. You see, it's still a small world. KOFMAN: Tell me about the building of the new temple because that was quite an event, I know. KIVIAT: That was quite an event. originally, the first building fund committee had a drive. As I say, I have a list of the contributors and everything. We raised money and then we heard that there was a parcel of land on 2nd Street just below the First Congregational Church which was available, and we bought it expecting to build the temple there. I think this was in 1947 that we bought that parcel of land. KOFMAN: What was the cross street on Central so that I can have some picture of where exactly? KIVIAT: It was on 2nd Street and it was between Culver -- there's a medical building there now. We sold it to a medical group and they set up the medical building. While we owned it we heard of the land being available up here on Osborn Road. We thought that would be better because it was quite evident that the membership would be moving further north. We went ahead and bought that. We could have had the entire block that we have now; the west side of 10th Avenue and the east side of 10th Avenue for darn little more money, but Charlie Korrick says, we don't want to go into the real estate business.' KOFMAN: Was there anyone else who disagreed or agreed with him? KIVIAT: He was one of the main contributors to the building fund. KOFMAN: Who were some of these other main contributors? Do you remember? KIVIAT: The Diamonds, Herb Stein and some of the older members. If I looked up the list I could tell you. There were a number of people who gave what they thought they could afford to give. But the main contributors were the Diamonds and the Korricks. other main contributors were also the Rosenzweigs, Herb Stein, those who were in business and more affluent than the rest of the community. It was done with very, very little trouble. We didn't have to convince anybody to give. KOFMAN: So approximately how much money did they have to raise in order to begin construction? KIVIAT: To begin construction we had to have a lot of money. We couldn't do that without having a lot of money. Fortunately when we sold the property on 2nd Street I think we got something like $45,000 or $50,000 from the sale of that land, plus what we had already accumulated, and the pledges, which gave us the opportunity to begin to plan for the temple on Flower. The law in Arizona was that if you incorporated the incorporation lasted for a period of 25 years. It isn't that anymore. Since we had incorporated in 1945 we had to reincorporate. I was one of the incorporators at the time. Then we had to do it again in 1970 so that we've maintained our legal position with the State of Arizona and we've continued to work. Let me say that the temple membership, everybody pitched in. The women, whether it was Nellie Diamond or Alma Diamond, everybody pitched in. Helen Diamond, all the women. There was no difference whether you were poor, whether you were rich, it was for the temple and everybody was equal. I think that's one of the things that we have missing today. It's more what can you do for me rather than what can I do for you. It's sad. There isn't that feeling anymore. Today, if the women have a luncheon they call somebody in to do it; they don't do it themselves. But to go on with the services; We continued holding services down on Culver until we had the temple built here and then we sold the property on Culver to a Chinese Baptist congregation and we came up here. We had a wonderful dedication where the heads of the Union and the rabbinate of the Union came to our dedication. The first service we held at the temple was for Rosh Hashanah in 1949. That was the first service we held here. And we continued to grow. I wanted to say that at the time that I became a member of the Board the congregation had grown to 105 members. By the time we set up here in 1949 I think we had a congregation of over 300 families. When we built the sanctuary we thought a seating capacity of 285 people would be enough and of course we would have the benefit of the auditorium. But as it turned out, as the congregation grew more and more, we then had to hold two services; one at the temple and one at Phoenix College. The reason for the growth in population in Phoenix was because of the training fields that were held here in Arizona during the war. There were five airfields, two of them British and three of them American, like Luke and Williams Field. There was one out in Mesa; one in Scottsdale, which is now the Scottsdale airport; there was one up on 59th Avenue, which is now the School of International Management. That was an air training field. There was a place out in Hyder, Arizona, about 65 miles from Phoenix where they were training for desert warfare. All these people from the fields used to come in before the weekends. KOFMAN: Were there very many Jewish people stationed at those bases? KIVIAT: There were Jewish people stationed. They together with the non-Jewish people liked it so well that they came back after the war was over and then brought families with them. If they were married the parents later followed them here. That's the way Phoenix grew and that's the way our congregation grew. When I was chairman of the membership committee we used to have over 100 applicants just before the holidays to join the temple. Since it was still a very transient community we used to lose about 75, so the net gain was only 25. But we were happy to get those. The members of the committee used to interview every applicant. It wasn't left to a director. We wanted to find out the background of the people who were becoming members and in the discussions we would try to find out what their financial capabilities were, not by direct questions, but by finding out what they had done for a living before coming here, what they expected to do here, where they were settling here, if they bought a house. After all, we knew the neighborhoods. So we would know if they were buying in a high priced neighborhood. You can't buy in a high priced neighborhood if you don't have the means to pay your mortgage. KOFMAN: Do you think anyone was ever offended by this type of membership interview? KIVIAT: No, not the way it was done. We used to explain that dues had been set at $60 a year. -I didn't even know whether I was going to be able to make a living here because I would have to establish a CPA practice in Arizona. But nevertheless I felt I'm going to be here, I'll be able to make it. So I agreed to the $60. But if there were people who couldn't, if after discussion for one reason or another, the dues were flexible. Gradually we increased them, but it was flexible. KOFMAN: Let me ask you a question. If when you joined there were 100 families and if each one of those families was paying $60 a year you don't have much of a budget. Were there also people who just contributed large amounts to the temple to pay salaries and -- KIVIAT: There were people who contributed more money and of course we had the cemetery too. In speaking about the building fund may be jumping around a little bit but because as you make a suggestion a thought comes to mind. KOFMAN: That's what I'm supposed to do. KIVIAT: All right. For instance, with the cemetery, that had been left to us by Maurice Wormser. I had occasion to check on the cemetery. I went down to the Recorder's office and I went through the dockets in the basement. KOFMAN: Was this recently? KIVIAT: No, some years ago. I went through the dockets in the basement and I found that Maurice Wormser, who had come from I think Kiel, Germany, owned quite a bit of farm land and other land in the state of Arizona. originally he contributed the land which is now our cemetery to the Hebrew Men's Club. KOFMAN: Why did he contribute it to them - so that they would run the cemetery? KIVIAT: So that they would use it for a cemetery. Then they decided that they wouldn't be able to do it, that the better organization to do it would be the temple, so they deeded over the land to the temple. I have the original deeds. KOFMAN: What year was this, approximately? KIVIAT: In the 1930's, early 1930's. KOFMAN: Was the Hebrew Men's Club specifically composed of men from Temple Beth Israel? KIVIAT: Not only Temple Beth Israel, it was also made up of members of Beth El. KOFMAN: All right, then my next question is, was the land that Mr. Wormser gave for the cemetery to be specifically temple cemetery or both congregations? KIVIAT: Originally it was for both congregations. But when Beth El split off, I think it was in 1939 when they split off, then they went ahead and they acquired land at the cemetery which is down on Van Buren Street. They acquired their own cemetery land. So we have some people buried on our cemetery who were part of our temple at the time, but who had the Conservative background. We have some plots on the cemetery where we don't know who the occupants are because there's one corner up front where there are burial plots for even people who worked for the temple, who were non-Jewish. But the thing was set up and it was set up very well. It was well organized. At the time the chairman of the cemetery committee, and who continued to be so for many years, was Harold Diamond. I became a member of the cemetery committee very early in my life in Phoenix and I've continued since then. In fact, there's a meeting of the cemetery committee next week. KOFMAN: Let me ask you another question. When did the temple membership begin to feel that they wanted to have another rabbi in addition to Rabbi Krohn? KIVIAT: It was several years before Rabbi Herring became rabbi. KOFMAN: You mean Rabbi Plotkin? KIVIAT: No, before Rabbi Herring became the assistant rabbi. KOFMAN: What I'm saying is how did Rabbi Plotkin happen to -- KIVIAT: Oh, how Rabbi Plotkin became rabbi? Rabbi Krohn wasn't well. He had had a heart attack and he was in poor health. In fact, at one time while we were building the temple and just about the time it was finished he passed out at the temple. KOFMAN: Was this during services? KIVIAT: No, not during services. What we did then was to begin to think about it. The first rabbi we got was Rabbi Fierman. Fortunately I was off the Board the two years that this happened with Rabbi Fierman, because they had passed an amendment to our bylaws that anyone could only serve for two successive elective terms unless he was a line officer. Since I wasn't the line officer at the time I went off for the two years. Then when I went back I became a line officer and gradually worked into becoming president. In fact, Harold Diamond at one time called me and asked me if I would run for president. I told him I didn't think I was ready. KOFMAN: Where did they find Rabbi Fierman? KIVIAT: They found Rabbi Fierman through the Central Conference of American Rabbis. At that time we had built the home on Clarendon which Rabbi Fierman first occupied. KOFMAN: The Rabbinate. KIVIAT: Yes, the Rabbinage. KOFMAN: Rabbinage, thank you. KIVIAT: We had bought that land and had the home built and he and his wife moved into it because we wanted to feel that anybody coming here would feel that there was a permanent place for him. That's what we did. Then Rabbi Fierman ran into some controversy with members of the Board. Had I been on the Board I would know more about it. KOFMAN: Can you tell me generally what might have been some of the conflicts? KIVIAT: Some of the conflict was that his wife wasn't interested in partaking in the activities with the women. Another thing, I think they ran into some-problem about finances. It was Al Spector who was the leading force in having Rabbi Fierman's contract terminated. That also resulted in the split in the temple when Temple Shalom was organized. The group that favored Rabbi Fierman left the temple and they formed this Temple Shalom. After awhile they had a building on 27th Street above Osborn Road. They practiced their Judaism there. KOFMAN: Did Rabbi Fierman serve as their rabbi? KIVIAT: No, he left Phoenix. His brother has been the rabbi over in El Paso for many, many years and is well liked there. So you can't figure; sometimes it's a wife, sometimes it's something else, different personalities. When Rabbi Fierman left we had a temporary rabbi -- what is his name? He became an art specialist; he was a big, heavy fellow. KOFMAN: You mean instead of being a rabbi? KIVIAT: He was on a temporary basis. Eventually he married a very rich girl so he didn't have to worry about whether he had a rabbinate or not. He's still around, over in the California area. And Rabbi Fierman is in the California area. I don't think he's serving as a rabbi anywhere. I think he's teaching at one of the colleges. Then Rabbi Krohn went back to a rabbinical convention in Atlantic City and when he came back I had a discussion with him and he told me that he had found a fine young man who he thought would make a good rabbi. I've been on every rabbinical and cantonal selection committee. We elected Rabbi Plotkin to become the rabbi. KOFMAN: This was the rabbi that Rabbi Krohn had found at this convention? KIVIAT: Right, and had recommended to us. my son, Bill, had met Rabbi Plotkin two years before at Camp Saratoga when it first opened up. Camp Saratoga used to be the property of Kathleen Norris. It was her estate. The union bought from her estate -- KOFMAN: The Union of American Hebrew Congregation? KIVIAT: Yes. They bought from her estate. And my son, Bill, was there the first year and all the kids that were there the first year worked real hard in helping to set up the camp. Rabbi Plotkin was there from Spokane as one of the visiting rabbis of the camp. Bill went back the second year and Rabbi Plotkin was there again. So he knew Rabbi Plotkin and when I told him he was very happy that Rabbi Plotkin was becoming the rabbi. When Rabbi Plotkin came to Phoenix for the first time for the interview Bill and I met him at the airport and then we had a breakfast with him on a Sunday morning up at the Arizona Club. KOFMAN: What year was this? KIVIAT: In 1955. He's going to be rabbi for 30 years now. KOFMAN: He became the junior rabbi? Was he called the junior rabbi? KIVIAT: No. Rabbi Krohn, because of his inability to do things, became the Rabbi Emeritus and Rabbi Plotkin became the rabbi. As you know, he's well liked. Speaking about Rabbi Krohn, Rabbi Krohn and I became good friends and we would meet during the week, not just Friday night services. After awhile I found out that he was using me as a sounding board for his sermons. we'd get into a discussion and he'd bring up a subject and ask what I thought about it. I'd give him an honest opinion, I never did anything else. Then on the Friday night I would learn that that was his sermon. KOFMAN: Was Rabbi Krohn married? KIVIAT: Yes. KOFMAN: What was his wife like and what was her name? KIVIAT: She was a very nice, educated woman. Both Rose and I became very friendly with Rabbi Krohn. Throughout the years, even before our daughter, Joy, became ill with leukemia and we knew it was going to be fatal, he was a great help and so was Eva. In fact, the whole community. Joy had to go in for transfusions every weekend. In fact, when we first found out that she had leukemia she was in the hospital for ten days getting transfusions almost daily. Later we were told that if she lasted the first ten days she would probably last three months. That's exactly what it was. She became ill on December 7th and on March 7th she passed away. KOFMAN: To go back to where we were before, when Rabbi Plotkin came and assumed the duties of the main rabbi of the temple, was there a great change in the services and the way the temple ran? KIVIAT: Not at the beginning. He was different. I mean, he comes from an Orthodox background too. You know, he comes from Notre Dame but his family living there was of an Orthodox background. He started to make some changes. We were only meeting on Friday nights. Then Rose and I got to him and said, "Look, why only Friday night, why not Saturday morning?" At first he wasn't ready to do it, but then he did and the starting attendance on Saturday morning wasn't very much. Rose told him you have to stick to it and we'll persevere and we'll get them, and we did. Then we began having holiday services. We didn't have -- the week before Rosh Hashanah we had the special service and we didn't have any of those. Rose and I had Rabbi Plotkin start that. I think gradually we introduced more Judaism into our services. In fact, it took Rabbi Eisendrath 25 years to realize -- and he wrote a book about it -- that the Classical Reform Judaism wouldn't induce many people to join the Reform movement, that there had to be more tradition and more ritual. I have a copy of the first Reform prayer book. They don't say rabbi, they say minister. if you'd like to see it I'll show it to you later. You'll get an idea of the changes that there have been even in the prayer book. I have quite a Judaica library here. I think the services are much more meaningful today. I'm still critical of some of the things; I'm not going to say here because what I would like to do is to get our religious services committee to make some changes. I don't like the shortened service. You see, when you have a religious service, like either in the morning or in the evening there's certain traditions. For instance, a basketball player can't go in and play basketball cold. They have a little practice session before. The same thing with football; the same thing with baseball. Here, they start in without the preparatory prayers like Psalms, which is said. In our new prayer book -- this is the third prayer book that we're using now -- in our new prayer book the really traditional Friday night service starts on Page 117 and that starts out with the Psalms and a part of not only the Conservative but also the Orthodox prayer book. But we skip over a lot of it. We never used to sing the Lecha Dodi before. Now we do. For instance, on the holiday, on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, there's a certain prayer, you may remember, B'Rosh Hashanah on Rosh Hashanah and it begins to describe in Hebrew those who will die by starvation, those who will die by earthquake and so on. The other prayer books that we had never had that translation. They never said anything about that. My feeling is that the Classical Reform tried to run away from Judaism. KOFMAN: Then let me ask you a question again. This takes you right back to the beginning but it's an idea and I would like to explore it. Feeling as you do about the Classical Reform and you certainly must have felt that way at the time, even though you joined Temple Beth Israel and you must have felt that Rabbi Krohn was conducting Classical Reform services. KIVIAT: He changed gradually. KOFMAN: Was it only because Hannah and Herman Stein stayed or -- something induced you to stay with temple instead of going to Beth El? KIVIAT: We liked the spirit of the people who were members. Besides, Rose and I felt -- to this day we feel at home in any synagogue, whether it's Reform, Conservative or Orthodox or Sephardic. We've attended services at all of them. When we go away, like for instance when we went to Long Beach we would attend a Reform service in the temple. Saturday morning they had no service so we went to the Conservative. KOFMAN: Tell me, we talked about the temple quite a bit and we'll get back to it, but can you tell me something about some of the formative years that you were witness to of the ,Jewish community-wide apparatus - the beginnings of the Jewish Community Center, the beginnings of the Jewish Federation. You were part of that, I know. KIVIAT: Originally I was. I was on one of the early boards of the Jewish Family and children's Service; I was on the board of the Jewish -they didn't call it Jewish Federation -whatever the name was at the time. The first meeting place that was actually held where there was a place where the people could come together was on 4th Street south of Roosevelt. KOFMAN: This was in the 40's? KIVIAT: No, I think the early 50's. That was a time we had some people who were acting as directors and then gradually Hirsh Kaplan came in as a director. I was active in that; I was the accountant for it, but I dropped out because at one of the board meetings- KOFMAN: This is of the early Jewish Community council? KIVIAT: Yes. And in fact this meeting was held in Eli Gorodezky's home on Almeria and 5th Avenue when he lived there. A certain matter came up. I never believed in gliding over something or to hide something. I was always direct and I am to this day. it makes no difference whether in our family life, in my public life. When I was on the Osborn School Board I experienced the same thing, but we got over that. But here I said something and it was contrary to what Hirsh Kaplan and a number of others felt. A couple of days later someone said to me that my being as outspoken as I was that it wasn't good for my accounting practice. That turned me off. KOFMAN: Can you describe for me what the difference in opinion was? KIVIAT I don't remember the exact matter, but the fact that somebody came to me and because I expressed an opposite opinion someone would tell me that it could affect my work and my way of making a living that didn't appeal to me. Any organization that would do that or that there should even be that kind of a feeling, that left me out. KOFMAN: Okay. Tell me about some of the high points that you remember of the years that you were president of Temple Beth Israel. That was '64 through -- KIVIAT: 63, '64, see, because of the fiscal years, and '64, '65. My aim in being president was to keep the congregation fully informed of what was going on at the board. For instance, we were going to have a bicentennial of the union in Chicago and I received a lot of literature from the union. A number of them had to do with resolutions that were going to be considered. I would have to vote on those resolutions if I went to the convention and I did. So at one of our board meetings I took those resolutions and brought them up before the board and asked them to express their opinion as to what they felt the vote should be. I didn't want to go there and take it upon myself and that's something that has been done in our congregation. We didn't even know what the reports are of the biannual conventions that are held. Have you ever heard any reports? You were a member of the board for awhile. KOFMAN: I can't remember. It does seem to me that they used to pass out copies of literature that was -- KIVIAT: That was literature. But not of the things relating to the convention itself. See, I've always had the feeling that a synagogue and a congregation should be more than a place where you just hold religious services. The religious services for one thing should be sincere, that the people should have knowledge of what they're saying, how they're praying and what the prayers mean. I also felt that a congregation should be a place of study where people learn about Judaism and also that it should be a place of assembly. I think I said that on the Friday night when I was talking and I think I promoted that and hoped to establish that. But unfortunately, it isn't continued. A congregation should have a view or a plan of what its aim is; what is it going to accomplish. We've had future planning committees and nothing has come of it. KOFMAN: Is this only the recent future planning committees or from a long time ago too? KIVIAT: Well, we did have one a long time ago where we went into it pretty deeply whether we should have a limited membership in the temple, but we decided against it because we're still a transient community. There are so many changes that it's almost impossible to do it. What our aim was and what we were trying to do -- you know we actually had three building fund drives for our temple because the building was built in three stages. KOFMAN: I didn't know that. Can you tell me about that? KIVIAT: Sure. The building was built in three stages. First, the original part with the classrooms up at the first north end on the patio and the offices on the 10th Avenue side and of course the auditorium and the sanctuary. That was the first stage. The second stage came for the north end where the classrooms are. By the way, we didn't buy that north lot. Al Spector bought that for himself and then when we wanted to acquire it we had to pay him $30,000 for that piece of land, which was almost the same as we paid for the site that we had. KOFMAN: This north lot is where the parking lot is? KIVIAT: Where the parking lot is, yes. The third stage was the building on the llth Avenue side. For each of those we had building fund drives so that those of us who were older members actually made three building fund pledges. For one of the drives that we had we called in a professional agency to set up the plan and the drive. We always had the idea that if a member becomes a member of the board that he has to be a working member of the board. That's not just an honorary position - you have to work, get into different obligation. Unfortunately, that hasn't been followed to a great extent. KOFMAN: Who were some of the outstanding presidents or officers that you remember other than yourself, of course? KIVIAT: Your dad, for one, Phil Copland; Mal Straus; Allen Rosenberg, who was a president at the time I think of the first building fund drive; and Harold Diamond was an outstanding member of the board. KOFMAN: What made these men outstanding in your view? KIVIAT: In my view it was a devotion to the temple. They were never hesitant about giving time to the temple and they were sincere in what they did. They meant it, and that is something that we have lacking today. KOFMAN: You don't feel that the officers in general today have this same feeling of commitment? KIVIAT: I don't think they have the same feeling. There may be some who do but it isn't evident. For instance, I'll give you an example; Up to the time that a certain man became president in our temple, when a man was president he came to every Friday night service. It was part of the office. Up to about ten years ago, maybe a little longer, and I'm not going to name names, but every man who was president -- your dad for instance when he was president, I was vice president -- KOFMAN: For the purpose of the tape this is Phillip Copland you're talking about? KIVIAT: That's right, Phillip Copland. When he was president and I was vice president and every one of the presidents made it a practice that the president would be there every Friday night. If he wanted to call up another officer to sit with him or a member of the board he did so, to give them an opportunity to know. Even Harry Rosenzweig, to mention names, would come every Friday night as busy as he was and he was engaged in many community activities, but Friday night no other appointment but the temple. He would sit up there and during the evening he would catch 40 winks every once in awhile, but he was always up when he had to stand up. But he was there, that's what I'm bringing up. That is something we don't have today. Many of the members in our congregation don't know who the president is because when they come to a Friday night service they don't see him. KOFMAN: However, don't you find too that many people who still belong to the temple today and consider themselves members unlike 15, 20, 25 years ago they themselves don't go to services? KIVIAT: That's right. KOFMAN: In a sense then the officers of our temple now reflect the basic philosophy of the temple membership. KIVIAT: I think they initiated it. By not coming, by setting the standard that a president doesn't have to be there every Friday night, that it could be a member of the board and the next week another member of the board or another officer, that that disrupts it. When people see that the heads of the organization don't think well enough of being there why should they? It's a follow master. There are very few leaders, Evanne, in the general community as well as in our religious community. KOFMAN: Let me ask you, going back to what I was saying before too, some of these outstanding presidents, were there any spectacular things that they achieved, either for the temple or for the entire Jewish community? KIVIAT: What they achieved, for instance, during those building years people like Dave Bush and others who were president, everybody pitched in and worked and everybody was sincere in his effort to see that the temple succeeded. That is something that is missing. For instance, I can come to a Friday night service or a Saturday morning service and not even find a handful of board members there. I'm expressing my views; I can't help it. Not even finding a handful of members there - does that give leadership to an organization? I've advocated that we should have regional meetings since we've become so large and spread out. Here the people complain that they're too distant but nevertheless -- KOFMAN: You mean, that they live too far from the temple? KIVIAT: They live too far from the temple - for religious school, for services, but nevertheless on a Friday night when there's a basketball game at the coliseum they come from all over the city to attend the basketball game. On a Saturday night if there's a football game at ASU they come from all over the city. So it's not inconvenient for them to go there. Why is it inconvenient? The kids today have it easy. They go for two or two and a half hours a week and if they go to Hebrew school so they go for another hour or two during the week. I went to religious school five days a week from 4:00 to 6:00 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday and from 9:00 to 12:00 on Sunday, and on Saturday we organized our own congregation. Our religious school, my Talmud Torah, was not affiliated with any congregation. It was independent and we kids organized our own Sabbath morning services. We had our own cantor, our own choir. KOFMAN: This is when you were a boy? KIVIAT Yes, when I was a kid. In fact, when it came time to have my bar mitzvah I didn't have it in my father's synagogue. I had it in my boys' synagogue. You see, there was a feeling, we had excellent, excellent teachers in the Talmud Torah and they instilled the love of Judaism in the students. Not only that, they made us think. The man who was the principal of the Talmud Torah later became a doctor, Dr. Bluestone. I have something here with his picture. Someone loaned it to me. He became the head of Montefaore Hospital in New York. KOFMAN: Some of these men who were leaders in Temple Beth Israel, they were also leaders not only in the Jewish community as a whole but in the general community. You tell me about some of them or any of the things that you yourself might have participated in. KIVIAT: Take Charlie Korrick for instance. He was very devoted to the temple at all times. Yet he was very active in the general community. Just the opposite of what his brother, Abe, was. KOFMAN: Can you tell me about their personalities, Charles and Abe Korrick, what you remember of them? KIVIAT: Abe was only interested in the business and in poker. KOFMAN: Poker? KIVIAT: When he went back for a buying trip in New York the evenings were always devoted to a poker game. In fact, here, once a week there was a group of our people who would meet and play poker. In fact, our temple meetings were changed from Wednesday night to Thursday night because the man who was elected president played poker on Wednesday night and he didn't want to give that up so he had the board change the meetings to Thursday night. KOFMAN: And the whole temple board went along with it? KIVIAT: Because there's no guts. It shows the lack of devotion or the lack of obligation to the office. See, these are the things. KOFMAN: Now, that was Abe Korrick. KIVIAT: Abe Korrick, and very well liked in the community. It was interesting. In many community affairs Harold Diamond, the same. Harold Diamond was on the board of Good Samaritan Hospital and he was active in many other ways. KOFMAN: Tell me about Charlie Korrick. I hear lots of stories about Charlie. KIVIAT: Charlie Korrick was a very kind individual. He was very devoted to the temple. He was also devoted to the business. You could go down to Korrick's on a Sunday morning -- I used to meet with him there -- and Charlie would be working in his office. He had a pile of papers all around his office on the floors. One of his keenest interests was checking the freight bills. He would go through them, and his greatest joy was in finding an error in a freight bill. Charlie had a good heart. Charlie was a very devoted man. I enjoyed Charlie; we used to visit with him. KOFMAN: Someone mentioned to me recently, and maybe you would have something to say about this, that almost every newcomer who was Jewish who came to Phoenix if he didn't have a job or couldn't find a job would get a job either with Korrick's or through Charlie at somewhere else. KIVIAT: My first job in Phoenix was with Korrick's. KOFMAN: What did you do? KIVIAT: In the bookkeeping department. I couldn't practice as a CPA here because I had to get a reciprocal degree from Arizona; that took time. In fact, I had to fight for it a little bit. I went up there and I think I saw Abe and Abe gave me the job in the bookkeeping department. KOFMAN: How did you happen to decide to go to the Korricks at that time? KIVIAT: They were the best known Jewish business in Phoenix. After all, they were the larger department store of the two, so they were well known. Someone suggested, whether it was Rabbi Krohn or someone else, that I go see him and I did. I worked there for awhile until I got a job with an accounting firm. KOFMAN: You said that you had trouble getting your CPA? KIVIAT: I found out the man who was secretary of the board at the time I would call him and find out how things were going and I would sort of get a brush-off. He told me he wasn't getting any replies from New York. Then, one day I asked him, "Who do you write to in New York?" and he gave me an incorrect address. I gave him the correct address and he was to write to the Board of Regents in New York to get the information. I don't know whether I was the first Jewish CPA here or not; my certificate number's 100 and today it's over 4,000, 4,200 certificates have been granted. I went to some of the other CPA's and a few of them helped. KOFMAN: So you felt that there might be some anti-Semitism? KIVIAT: Maybe with this one person but with the others I became an officer of the CPA society; I was secretary; I was treasurer; I was on the executive board and I worked hard. Then, as a matter of fact, at one time the people who were arranging for the annual meeting -- and they were non-Jewish, they didn't know anything about the prejudices on the part of our hotels. So far as they knew they were always welcome there. They arranged a meeting for Camelback Inn and they were reporting it at our executive committee meeting. I told them I was sorry, I wouldn't be able to attend. You know they changed it. KOFMAN: They changed the site of the meeting? KIVIAT: They changed the site of the meeting. Rose was president of the CPA Auxiliary and they used to meet for luncheons. A couple of the girls would arrange the menu. If they arranged the menu which had traif, you know like ham or pork or anything like that, Rose was served something else. I was an organizing member of Kiwanis and the same thing happened at our luncheons. If they had pork or ham I got something else. KOFMAN: That was very considerate. KIVIAT: Right. I never hid the fact that I was Jewish. I wouldn't flaunt it, but in conversation if something came up and I referred to the temple, okay. It was matter of fact and most of my clients were not Jewish. KOFMAN: All right. I think maybe we can continue this in another day or two if you're willing. I would like to. KIVIAT: I would like to. KOFMAN: Meanwhile, I've enjoyed talking to you today and I'm looking forward to the next installment. KIVIAT: Okay, I'll try to give you what is helpful. KOFMAN: Thank you, Sam. [end of transcript]