..inte: Hirsch Kaplan ..intr: Dorothy Pickelner ..da: 1985 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Hirsch Kaplan February 5, 1985 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Dorothy Pickelner Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log for Hirsh Kaplan Interview Pages 1 Arrival in Phoenix, 1949 Herman Miller 2 State of Phoenix Jewish Community Council 2 House at 490 North 4th Street 2-3 Council made up of representatives from: Hebrew Men's Club Ladies Bikkur Cholim Men's (Phoenix) Bikkur Cholim 3 Minutes of Council important 3-4 People who helped Rabbi Krohn 3-4 Situation of Social Services Florence Frank 4 Awful condition of nursing homes in Valley Louis Wahl 5 Renting of Heard Estate as center Herman Miller 5 Activities 5-6 Planning of a center Sam Langerman 6 Obtaining land 16th Street and Camelback Colonel Himmelstein 6 Plans for building 6-7 Deep involvement of suppliers Sam Hoffman 7 Architectural plans Schreiber brothers 7 Hoffman insists on gymnasium Board of Directors 8 Pride of Hoffman 8 Support of community 8 Center membership 9 Portrait of Sam Hoffman 9 Opening of J.C.C. on 16th Street and Camelback - celebration 10 Later sale of this center for half million dollars 10 New center built at Maryland and 17th Avenue 10 New director of center Ted Barkin 10 Himann Kivel - who was he? Florence Frank 11 The Kivel Will - $100,000 for Bikkur Cholim Jewish indigents and transients Harry Rosenzweig to be administered by Temple Beth Israel 11 Problem of transferring money and administration to Jewish Community Council 12 Established Kivel Committee 12 Need of good legal counsel Albert Spector 12-13 Historic meeting of Beth Israel Congregation when transfer was George Wolf made; motion made; petitions signed Ladies' Bikkur Cholim 13 Kivel fund now $105,000 13 Kaplan arranges matching funds from Arizona State Health Department of federal money -- HUD: State happy to lend money 14 Kaplan determined to build nursing home; not "old folks" home 14 Kaplans take research trip up and down west coast to visit dozens of "homes" for ideas which would meet standards; find only one 14 Search for good director for Kivel Nursing Home Celia Bramson 15 Admissions committee sets standards Harold Alpert 15 Kivel Board established 15 Outpouring of money donations 15 Grand opening - 1958 Ladies' Bikkur Cholim 16 How land was obtained -- gift from Mr. and Mrs. Noble Nobles -- $30,000 16 Land search made; needed to be Dr. Eckstein near hospital; 10 acres Al Spector 16 Plaque for Nobles outside of building 17 Last piece of land less than 1/2 acre bought much later for $20,000 from Mormon Church, 10 acres Mormon Church -- Earll Drive and 36th St. 17 Kaplan as executive director of Jewish Community Council supervises all institutions and services 17-19 Kinds of services; house and apartment finding; community Arizona Republic relations; discriminations; Camelback Inn fund raising Ed Korrick 20 Celia Bramson resigns Charlie Korrick 20-21 Hirsh Kaplan leaves Community Sam Shapiro Council to become director of Kivel 22 Study presented to Council board for low cost dwelling to fill nutrition and housing need 22 Had guidelines 22 Approach Housing and Urban HUD Development 22 HUD happy to cooperate 22 Grant of $1,250,000 at 3% for 50 years 23 Board amazed and approves 23 New assistant for building, Eugene Berlatsky application, etc. -- previously Phoenix Jewish Center director 23 Applicants sign leases 1968 23 Pleased with own key to own apartment 23 One kosher meal daily 23 All 120 apartments filled in one week; waiting list 23 Name discussed Kivel Manor 24 Clamor for more apartments 24 HUD encourages another building 24 Ample land owned by Kivel Nursing Home 24 Build-- sold to Manor Kivel Manor West 24 New loan for 60 apartments; $1,500,000 at 1%; 40 years 1970 25 Rent -- on ability to pay 25 Profits paid for furnishings 25 One bedroom apartments for couples 25 Large studio -- bedroom 25 Furnishings committee obtained Nat Silverman direct from factories -- beautiful Irwin Kline 26 HUD later endorsed loan for building Goldsmith building; Horace Goldsmith all one bedroom apartments 26-27 Mr. Goldsmith approached for funds Harry Rubenstein by president of Kivel -- gave $300,000 26 Mr. Goldsmith important philanthropist 27 Later Mrs. Goldsmith increased gift to $1,000,000 Mrs. Grace Goldsmith 27 Kivel auxiliary had long been established 27 Kivel ball -- originated by Kivel Board 28 Money always easy to raise for Kivel or any other good, attractive projects 28-29 New building project now will sell bonds -- $4 million -- predicts success 29 Community changing 30 Minutes of Community Council must be Found and preserved Hirsh Kaplan Interview PICKELNER: Good morning, Hirsh. We are recording this tape at your home on February 5, 1985, for the Arizona Jewish Historical Society. In this interview we are hoping to learn of the history and growth of the Jewish Social Services in this area during your long administration. When did you arrive In Phoenix, Hirsh? KAPLAN: Helen and I and our family arrived in Phoenix in September of 1949. We were met by Herman Miller, who had talked to me in Long Beach some weeks before. PICKELNER: Where did you come from - from Long Beach? KAPLAN: From Long Beach. We had had the same kind of job in Long Beach for a few years but the climate was not suitable for either myself or the family. PICKELNER: What kind of a community did you find here in Phoenix? KAPLAN: Well, it certainly was not a very well organized community. In fact, the community was in disarray. My predecessor, in a well meaning, aggressive manner had managed to antagonize most of the leaders of the community, such as there were. As a consequence the community was pretty well divided. Furthermore, there was no consensus about what a central organization In the community was supposed to do besides raising money. PICKELNER: We were certainly fortunate to have you arrive. How did you go about setting up the community? What was there to work with? KAPLAN: Well, my predecessor had obtained a house on 4th Street -- I think at 490 North 4th Street -- which he was pleased to call a community center but was far from that, although there was a group of young adults that had been meeting there. I attempted to form a community council in order to obtain a consensus and I made that out of representatives from the various organizations in the community. Most of the organizations had their own objectives and goals and not any of them were centered on one community nucleus objective and not even to the extent of raising money. PICKELNER: Did that work? Was the Community Council a viable, stable organization? KAPLAN: Well, in the sense that it did meet and it did accept and adopt resolutions for action and It did authorize certain projected goals for the council itself and its staff. In that sense it was successful, but in the sense that it represented anything but the various organizations who had their own goals and their own objectives, it did not yet provide a centralized community wide nucleus of thought. All of them were concerned about their own particular kind of quota so to speak except one, which was the Hebrew Men's Club that was interested in getting some kind of a community center going. I must add that there were two other groups in the community that did have some semblance of a program. One was the Ladies' Bikkur Cholim and the other was the Phoenix Bikkur Cholim. Their object was to alleviate the suffering of the sick in which they were moderately successful. PICKELNER: Were there officers of the council? KAPLAN: Yes. We had officers of the council. I can't remember all of them, but the minutes of the council, if they have been preserved -- I hope they have been preserved, because they would make very valuable adjuncts to whatever I have to say -- would reveal not only the officers but the members of the board or executive committee or the various committees as they were established. PICKELNER: Very good. Do you remember any of the people who were helpful to you in forming these? KAPLAN: Yes. I think Nat Silverman was important and Harold Alpert and Herman Miller, Sam Langerman. PICKELNER: Were the Rosenzweigs also presidents at various times? KAPLAN: No, but they were active when called upon, both of them. Newton and Harry both were very willing to serve in whatever capacity we asked them to serve. In that sense they were very welcome in any project that we had. PICKELNER: Hirsh, was there any kind of organized social service started by anyone? KAPLAN: I think you qualified by saying "organized". There was a service of which Florence Frank was the social service worker and she had a secretary. Rabbi Krohn was the obvious head of the agency, although there was a small board, of which he was the leader. He didn't profess to be expert In the technical side of social services. Florence Frank was not a graduate social worker but she had a good deal of experience. PICKELNER: What was the status of taking care of the sick and the ailing here? KAPLAN: Well, there were some poor excuses for nursing homes in the community. They were brought to my attention by Louis Wahl who was active in the Phoenix Bikkur Cholim. He constantly called on me to do something to alleviate the condition of the Jewish people who were In these terrible places. on several occasions he took me to visit some of them and I was simply astounded at the terrible conditions that existed In them. He constantly entreated me to do something about them and finally I did bring to the attention of the council this deplorable situation and suggested that this might be an area in which very reasonably the council might have a Job to do. They agreed and authorized a committee to establish a modern nursing home. That was easy for them to do because they had no money and had no Idea where the money would come from. PICKELNER: Hirsh, what was the first big organized Institution or convenience that was built for this city? KAPLAN: Of course the first one was the nursing home. PICKELNER: Wasn't the first center before the nursing home? KAPLAN: The program was held in the old Heard Estate on Central and that was practically given to us at a very ridiculous rental by a couple of people in the community, one of whom was Jewish, the other not. A beginning of a center program was initiated there, including a golden age group, space for youth groups to meet, a summer day camp for children, square dance group, various activities. PICKELNER: I think I remember because we learned to play bridge. KAPLAN: There were three separate buildings and at one end of a building was the council office. At the other end of the same building was the social service office. In the second larger building was the center activities building. I think the third building was a kind of garage or barn. I don't remember If we used that for crafts and certain other activities. That was the beginning of the center movement. I must say that the Hebrew Men's Club was very much interested and encouraged by that beginning. PICKELNER: Hirsh, when did it become a real center or where did you go to become a real center? Would you tell us that history. KAPLAN: Well, several people In the community, most notably Sam Langerman, Herman Miller, Morrie Brown, became interested in providing a center for the community. Through the efforts of Morrie Brown a plot was purchased from Colonel Himmelstein pretty close to 16th Street and Camelback. PICKELNER: Did we have to buy the land? KAPLAN: We bought the land at a ridiculous price, much to the disgust of one of our community leaders who said that it wasn't any good, that it was too far out of town and so forth. Later, when there was an opportunity to sell part of it this same individual said, "Don't sell It, it'll be worth a lot of money." That's how the community grew, by the way. I think the Ford Motor Company at 16th Street and Camelback and I think one of the other automobile companies which occupy that space, took over the space when a new center was built later. PICKELNER: Can you tell us about how you managed to get the land and building? KAPLAN: That's an interesting question. It wasn't easy. First of all, Sam Hoffman, a builder who had come to this community without very much in the way of wealth but managed to achieve a very substantial amount of wealth because he was a good builder, volunteered to put up the center and did so by getting the unions, the construction workers, to contribute labor. He went around and got block and cement and other necessary things for the construction of a center. The Schreiber boys, Arthur and his brother, provided the architecture, which they had to do kind of in a hurry because Hoffman, if not supplied with the necessary architecture, would have gone ahead anyway. I was busy running around getting small things, electrical appliances and other things, certain lumber and other necessary Items that were too small for Hoffman to bother with. But I had to go around and "schnor" those from various suppliers in the community. They got to know me pretty well. PICKELNER: That must have been an exciting time. KAPLAN: That was a very exciting time. We also had a center director. PICKELNER: Before you did that, what was the story about a gymnasium that I have heard? KAPLAN: Well, it seemed that we had not planned on a gymnasium. That was a little bit beyond our vision, but Hoffman had been able to get one of the concrete block companies to supply a vast quantity of concrete block. He came to me one day and said, "We're going to have a gymnasium." I said, "We don't have any plans for a gymnasium." He said, "So, get them." So I called the Schreiber boys and they were absolutely, indignant, but they are good sports and got us plans in a very short order. Before you could even imagine Hoffman had gotten his people to put up a tremendous building which had a regulation size gymnasium. Much to our surprise we had a gymnasium; we had a good swimming pool. I must say Hoffman took a great deal of pride in what he had accomplished and would come down every day to see the progress of the work and comment on the workmanship, especially in the swimming pool because he had been a plasterer and he just loved to see the way the plaster was going into the swimming pool. He liked that. PICKELNER: That's a wonderful story and how lucky we were that there was a Sam Hoffman. KAPLAN: Oh, yes. Well, again the social service agency had an office at one end of a corridor. The council -- my offices had offices at the other end. In the middle were some of the service facilities, the cooling system and so forth. We had several meeting rooms of various sizes and carried on with a center director this time, who seemed to know what he was doing. A pretty good center program. PICKELNER: Did the people of the community support this project? KAPLAN: Yes; pretty well. The people of the community supported it pretty well. The fees for membership were very reasonable. We had a very good population use of the facilities and quickly outgrew them. The meeting rooms got to be too small. we had one art class, I remember, one of the instructors is very eminent now in the art field at Arizona State University and in the community. He quickly ran out of space. It got to be a little embarrassing because the place was so jammed sometimes that there was a spillover. We had a nice portrait painted of Sam Hoffman and hung it in one of the rooms. PICKELNER: Hirsh, do you remember the day the center opened for the community - the celebration? KAPLAN: No, I don't unfortunately. PICKELNER: I remember it as one of the most exciting days that ever were in this town. KAPLAN: I think we had some kind of a carnival out there. PICKELNER: Yes. Just the people pouring in to see this magic building. KAPLAN: I think people were hungry for that kind of identification, a place to come to that was separated from -- and this is not said with any derogation of our religious institutions -- but a place to come to that was secular in nature, where you came for fun and for instruction and so forth. PICKELNER: I think this was a milestone in the history of the city. KAPLAN: No doubt about it. PICKELNER: What happened to the center on 16th Street? KAPLAN: Well, as I mentioned earlier I think some of the automobile companies that came to regard that section of the community as their own province finally took it over. When the new center was built it was sold for a very substantial sum, I think close to, if not more than, a half million dollars, which was certainly not the amount of money that the Jewish community had put into it. That was the nucleus amount of money needed for the new center, which was built on Maryland. Now, at that time the new center was built under the direction of Ted Barkin, our new center director who had very good center experience and knew exactly what was needed and wanted. So, as a result, the Phoenix Jewish community even today has a very fine, beautiful Jewish community center with ample facilities. As I understand It they've even branched out into some of the outlying sections as the Jewish people have started to come into middle Arizona. PICKELNER: That was very interesting, Hirsh. Now, let's talk a little about the history of the building of Kivel. That seemed to me an unusual and beautiful part of our community history. Who was Himann Kivel and how did all this come about? KAPLAN: When we were still close to 16th Street and Camelback, Florence Frank frequently went to see a man, a recluse, by the name of Himann Kivel. He spelled his name H-i-m-a-n-n K-i-v-e-1, Himann Kivel. He was an elderly man, not very well; he was ill. I would send Florence down there frequently to see how he was getting along. A lot of the ladies of the community, of the various Bikkur Cholim groups, also went down to see him, bringing him various things. We never thought he had any money and we never asked him to pay for anything for that reason, although people getting services or materials were frequently asked to pay for them if they were able to. When he died, Harry Rosenzweig called me one day and said that Himann Kivel had died and left an estate of more than a third of a million dollars, but that he had left $100,000 to be used for a home for indigent Jewish transients. He wanted that money left to Temple Beth Israel which he requested to build such a home. Harry at that time was president of Beth Israel and nobody knew better than he that the temple congregation was not in a position to or was even willing to build a home for Jewish indigent transients. So he suggested to me, "Well, you do something about it." Well, I remembered the entreaties of Louis Wahl to build a nursing home and thought that this might be an idea to obtain at least the basic money. So I went back to the Community Council board and I said, "Now, here's an opportunity to obtain a very substantial sum of money if we can get the temple congregation to give this money to the Community Council board for a very similar purpose. It won't be exactly for Jewish indigent transients but it'll be for Jewish people who need this kind of service." They fell In love with the idea and established a committee. Then I went back to Harry and said, "We're going to need some kind of an instrument to get the temple congregation to turn this money over to the council." He said, "Why don't you go to Albert Spector, he's a first rate lawyer, very eminent in the community, especially in the legal community. He'll think of something." So I did. He was tremendously interested and he devised what is called an undertaking, which was to be signed by members of the congregation. Of course, we needed a way to get it to the members of the congregation. As it happened, not long after that there was an annual meeting of the congregation. Helen and I were members and naturally we went. And I got the members of the Ladies' Bikkur Cholim that were anxious to do a job for this new nursing home -- everybody was very excited about it, by the way -- and they agreed to come and at the proper time to circulate this undertaking among the members assembled and get it signed. As it happened that was a very historic meeting of the temple for a lot of reasons which I don't have to go into now, but which had to do with a renewal of a rabbinical contract. The meeting lasted until midnight. About that time I asked Harry, who was chairing the meeting, to let me say a few words. He was glad to relinquish the podium because he was exhausted too by what had gone on. I told the congregation all about this inheritance and what it was for and would they mind turning it over to the council to carry it out. Well, I think George Wolf immediately got up and made a motion that the congregation should do this unanimously. Two or three people seconded it and there was a big chorus of "ayes" all over the place and right away the ladies of the Bikkur Cholim were going down every aisle and getting the signatures. By the time we got the money it had accumulated some interest and was now about $105,000. That was the beginning. PICKELNER: It certainly sounds greatly exciting. KAPLAN: Well listen, we couldn't build the place for $105,000. That was ridiculous. So I went to a friend I had at the State Health Department and I wondered whether there was any federal money to be obtained. Yes, there was. The Hill Burton Act would provide matching funds. Well, I figured out that this building would cost close to a half million dollars. So I asked for about $225,000. Then I went back to the committee and I said, "Here's what I've got and what do you think?" Well, they thought, "You won't get it " and "We'll be under government supervision" and so forth and so on. But they were wrong on all counts. As it happened the State Health Department was eager to have a modern nursing home. They were just as sick and tired of what passed for nursing homes in this community as everybody else was. So they were very happy to grant us the $220,000. I was idealistic enough to have some notions about what should be done. My colleagues around the country thought I was nuts. They all had built "old folks" homes. But I was determined not to do that. So Helen and I and the children decided to take a trip and we went up and down the West Coast by car, visiting "old folks" homes and what passed for nursing homes. Would you believe that in all of the places that we visited, dozens of them, there was only one that was an up-to-date, modern nursing home that would meet our standards and that was a non-Jewish one up In Washington or Oregon. Even that one did not have all of the modalities that I thought we should have. PICKELNER: Now, this was to be a nursing home? KAPLAN: A nursing home, not an "old folks" home. Well, I was still the director of the Jewish Community Services, which of course included everything. We would need someone who would be in charge of this nursing home. So, Harold Alpert had an aunt who was working for an "old folks" home in Cleveland. He suggested that we employ her; she was an elderly woman. PICKELNER: Do you remember her name? KAPLAN: Yes, I do remember. Celia Bramson. A very nice person. When I wrote to her employer and asked whether she'd had any administrative experience he wrote back a glowing recommendation. Well, we didn't need anything else, but as it turned out she didn't know anything about nursing homes, she only knew about "old folks" homes. And she didn't know very much about administration. We had an admissions committee at that time; and, if a name came up of a person who was sick, she didn't want to admit them. She only wanted to admit well people because that was her experience. PICKELNER: But it was useful in a way because she had good standards, didn't she? KAPLAN: Yes, she did have very good standards and when she left our employ after several years, three years I think, the board -- by this time the committee which had established it became a board -- gave her a very nice sendoff, a nice party at the country club and so forth. PICKELNER: When the home opened, I think I remember another celebration. KAPLAN: Yes, 1958. PICKELNER: Would you tell us how Mr. and Mrs. Noble became involved? KAPLAN: Yes. As soon as the news of the project of the nursing home became public we had telephone calls from people who wanted to give us money. I never saw such an outpouring in my life of money. People were anxious to be identified with this project. The Ladies' Bikkur Cholim -- I had several people in there that they had contacted, especially one woman who was anxious to have her name on the door memorialized, so she endowed several rooms at $5,000 apiece. She probably endowed four or five of them. That was the kind of thing that went on almost without any solicitation on our part. The Ladies' Bikkur Cholim itself provided money for the kitchens. The Nobles called me and said they wanted to give the land. Now, at that time we were in search of proper land for the nursing home. Dr. (Albert] Eckstein and Al Spector and I had gotten into an automobile and we were canvassing the city to see where a good piece of land lay. We found one that was only seven minutes away from the Good Samaritan Hospital. To us that was very important. That was the one we really centered on. It was ten acres. We had to give up some to the city for sidewalks and roadways and so forth, but it was large enough and close enough to a hospital not to present a problem. That was the land we wanted. The Nobles had a piece of land they wanted to give. But Al Spector told them that we could not take their land. We wanted $30,000. If they wanted to give the land it would cost them $30,000 and they could make it in two payments if they wanted. That's what they did. They wanted to be identified so warmly with this project that they gave us $30,000 in the two payments. As a result, we put up a plaque -- I think it's still there at the entrance to the building showing their profiles, Mr. and Mrs. Noble. Although the whole project itself is far in excess of $30,000. The only piece of land we weren't able to get was a postage-sized parcel at the southeast corner of the whole tract which bordered on Earll Drive and 36th Street which belonged to the Mormon Church. We early started negotiations for the purchase of that land but were not able to buy it for a long time. Finally that small piece, which was less than one acre, we finally were able to buy for about $20,000. PICKELNER: Very good. How did the other buildings get to be built? KAPLAN: Well, before we get to the other buildings we really have to go back to the community Council of which I was still the Executive Director. As a matter of fact my title was the Executive Director of Jewish Community Services. I took this title very seriously and literally. So my object was to provide services to the Jewish community in whatever area seemed to be lacking. For example, we had a room-finding service which emanated from our office. People who had flats for rent or rooms for rent could register them with our office and when strangers came to town they could either come to us or call us and we would be glad to refer them. The Anti-Defamation League of B'nal B'rith actually didn't operate in our town. We had established a community relations committee. Although we had a relationship with the ADL in Los Angeles Regional Office and were visited rather frequently, whatever work was done locally was done by this community relations committee. At that time there was a lot of discrimination in the community, especially with regard to places like Camelback Inn and Mountain Shadows. it's interesting to note that the really most stylish place, and that's the Biltmore, did not discriminate against Jews and we frequently had meetings there. We had occasion to notify representatives of various groups that had planned to have meetings at Camelback Inn, for example. We never told them not to meet there but we always told them what their policy was. As a consequence, several important organizations canceled their conferences at Camelback Inn. It is ironic to note that today -- at that time by the way it was owned by John C. Lincoln, who built the John C. Lincoln Settlement House which later became the hospital -- it's ironic that today the Jewish community has most of its activities, its meals there. They even have a kosher set of dishes and kosher silverware and so forth. But at that time they were rabid in their discrimination. In fact, the newspaper, the Republic, called us to task on it and Ed Korrick and his father, Charlie, and I called on the publisher and had quite a session with him and pointed out to him how wrong he was in protecting this discriminatory policy. I think we convinced him a little bit because, you know, he was friends with a lot of these people who ran these places. Of course, they were old-time settlers and so forth. Anyway, we got them to change their policy eventually. That was another service we rendered the community. We felt it was an important service. Of course, we started the Jewish community center movement as a center with a program, not just a place but also a place with a program. We were active in the sense that we were providing services to the community. Let me tell you that it was my object that nobody should say that the costs of running the Council were all attributed to how much it cost to raise money. You follow me? I didn't want it to be said, "Well, look how much it's costing to raise the money for the UJA." Well, I didn't want that to be the truth. I wanted people to know that for the money they were contributing they were also getting other services. PICKELNER: Hirsh, how did it expand? KAPLAN: Well, let me go back now to the time when there was a question about Celia Bramson continuing as the director. Incidentally, she had a residence in the nursing home, which was opened in October of '58 with 30 beds. But I expected if she were really qualified that Kivel, the nursing home, would take a leadership position in the state. In fact, Tucson had sent up delegations to find out what we were doing because they were interested in doing somewhat the same thing. But I was disappointed in the fact and I told the committee at the time, I told them, I said I was terribly disappointed that nothing was emanating from the Kivel Nursing Home; that the service was good but not for the ill. in fact, we seemed to have a stumbling block in the fact that we're not taking any sick people. So I never did complain to Celia Bramson or really knock her to the board, I didn't derogate her to the board. But she saw the handwriting on the wall. The admissions committee constantly brought up the names of sick people in their condition, to which she was unalterably opposed. So she finally resigned and as I mentioned earlier they gave her a nice send off. Sam Shapiro at that time became the president of the nursing home board and he had quite a discussion with the president at that time -- I forget who the president was of the Community Council to have them release me so I could become the director of the nursing home. In fact, I had thought that since we had hired a chap by the name of Barkin as the center director who really knew center programming and how to run a center, that it was time that these various organizations were getting a little too big for one person to be the director of all of them although in some communities, especially in Tucson, the director of the Jewish Community Council or Federation, whatever it is, is the director of all of the various services. PICKELNER: You mean still? KAPLAN: Yes, as of the last time I noticed. In my opinion it was too much for one person. Nobody was that good, not even Hirsh Kaplan. So I looked on that with a great deal of favor and encouraged Sam Shapiro to continue and finally he won out and I just finished that year's campaign and then went into the nursing home as a full-time director. PICKELNER: By the way, all these years you were also the head of all the fund raising, weren't you? KAPLAN: Everything. Now, one of the first things that I wanted to do was to get some kind of a demographic study of what the real needs were of the elderly Jewish population in our community. We had no idea. One of the people that we had hired to help was Florence Frank in the Social Service Agency. I hired her in her spare time to visit the homes of the golden age group that I had organized and visit them and find out what their real needs were. We devised a very simple questionnaire that wouldn't frighten people; one page, very few questions. I gave her a dollar for every one that she turned in. But I told her on the QT she should look in their refrigerators, see what their food situation was, take a look around the apartment, see what their conditions were and we established a sort of a guideline for what was a conforming and non-conforming apartment or dwelling. In other words, did it have a window that could be opened, was the window screened, If they had a stove was it vented properly, and so forth. I presented that material when it was concluded to the board and I said, "Now, these people are not sick. They don't need a nursing home but they do need something; they need a low-cost dwelling where some of their needs, especially emergency needs, can be cared for and, because of what we have learned about their nutrition, where they can obtain a midday meal, or a meal, as part of their residence." I asked the board, "What do you think about this?" Well, they said, "That takes a lot of financing for that." I said, "Well, if you authorize me to go forward with this I think I have a plan." Because I will tell you that I never approached the board with a proposition for which I did not already have several alternative plans. So I approached the Department of Housing and Urban Development and we had a branch office right here in Phoenix at the time. There had been no HUD low-cost housing for the elderly built in Phoenix at that time, or in the state of Arizona for that matter. So they were very happy to see me and to cooperate. They gave me the opportunity to obtain a mortgage of a $1,250,000 at Three percent interest for 50 years. PICKELNER: $1,250,000 at three percent for 50 years? KAPLAN: Yes. When I went back to the board to tell them what I had discovered or what I had obtained or could obtain they were amazed and quickly approved. Now, I warned them. I said, "There might be some risk in this because if we don't fill up the place we're going to have to find the money to pay for some of these apartments." But they said, "But you're going to have to have an assistant. You can't do this by yourself." They said, "we want you to stay in the nursing home. You get an assistant to run this other place." Which I did and his name was Eugene Berlatsky. At that time he was being released from his job at the new community center, of which Ted Barkin, if you'll remember, was the director. Well, he did a very good job and we got people ready and they signed leases. When they learned that they had keys to their apartment, they could come and go as they please and the only condition was that they had to have one meal every day but Saturday and the meals would be kosher, not to exclude anybody who was used to a kosher cuisine, we filled up the place in one week, one week, and did not exhaust our waiting list, not even by half. And that was opened and filled in one week. PICKELNER: What was that called? KAPLAN: We had quite a discussion in the board and I had suggested about 10 or 15 different names. They finally decided on Kivel Manor. PICKELNER: Was that the end of the housing for these people? KAPLAN: No. As it turned out the clamor for housing continued. When Housing and Urban Development officials saw what we had done they urged us to continue. Now, what we did -- see, the nursing home owned all the property. So I told the boys, "Let's devise a perfectly legitimate scheme, a legal scheme, whereby the nursing home board will sell the land to the project and you will still be the board for the new project and we will report the new project as the new project and the money from the land will help to pay for the furnishings." Well, they thought that was a great idea. That's what happened. But, as I say, the need for more facilities continued. So, two years later -- that was in '68 -- two years later in 1970 I again approached Housing and Urban Development and got an additional loan for what we were going to call Kivel Manor West, which was the building in which we are now sitting. Building costs had increased to such an extent that whereas the manor had 120 units, one of them reserved for a security person who would answer an emergency call bell, the Kivel Manor West had half of that number and cost $1,500,000, but it was one percent for 40 years. You can't beat terms like that. PICKELNER: It is fantastic when you think what has happened to the world since that time. KAPLAN: That was because we had a generous president who was tuned to the needs of the poor. If you had too much money you had to pay market rent which was the kind of rent that was prevailing in other non-HUD financed housing, regular housing. But if your income was below a certain level then you could have the low-cost housing. We used more than half of the apartments in this building as one bedroom apartments for married couples, whereas in the manor itself we only had about 20 apartments that were one bedrooms for married couples. We didn't furnish all the apartments in the manor and we did the same thing with this place. We sold the land to the new project and used the money to furnish a certain number of units. How did we know which units to furnish? Well, in making our study of the people who needed housing we came across people who needed furniture and those who didn't. In fact, some of the people who had furniture were very happy to get rid of it because it was old and battered and not very clean. PICKELNER: These were beautifully furnished. KAPLAN: Oh, Yes. Well, for that we had to thank our decorations committee, of which Nat Silverman was the chairman. He and Irwin Kline, who unfortunately recently passed away, were able to obtain furniture from the factory rather than through a local distributor at rock bottom prices. So, as a result, the furnishing of the apartments was generally appreciated by all of the residents. The new place of course was called, as I mentioned, Kivel Manor West. Since that time Housing and Urban Development has also made a new grant for the new building which is the Goldsmith building. I wanted it called Kivel Manor East and did supervise this construction, but at that time I had already resigned. I was in practical semi-retirement and I had been retained merely to oversee the construction of the new building. These were all one bedroom apartments and some of them were furnished and some of them were unfurnished. But the layout is the same with a space for someone who would answer emergency call signals and so forth. PICKELNER: Did Mr. Goldsmith have something to do with this? KAPLAN: Well, we heard he was a millionaire who had married late in his life. He has a lovely wife, Grace. Someone had approached him to ask him -- not anyone connected with the board -- had approached him to see whether he would be interested in giving money to this project. Well, he was a philanthropist of the first order and had given a lot of money to projects in the United States and in Israel, although he was not a dedicated Zionist. This same person suggested to us, "Why don't you go and ask him." So, Harry Rubenstein and I -- by the way, Harry Rubenstein at this point was the new president of the Kivel board -- he and I went to see Mr. Goldsmith. I'm not so sure he wanted to give a lot of money when we first went to see him, but we told him that if he wanted his name prominently displayed on this building as a substantial donor it would have to be no less than $300,000. Well, he finally came around. He said he would give us $300,000. That's the reason why it's called the Goldsmith building. PICKELNER: Very, very interesting. KAPLAN: Incidentally, in subsequent Kivel balls, which are money raising activities of the Kivel board - PICKELNER: But that was from the auxiliary, wasn't it, or did the Kivel board -- KAPLAN: Well, essentially it was a Kivel board that originally established the Kivel ball. Later, the Kivel auxiliary, when it became a fund raising organization rather than a strictly service organization, it took it over. But at one of these more recent ones, after Horace died, his widow Grace brought the contribution up to a million dollars. PICKELNER: Oh. KAPLAN: Well, these were people who really had a lot of money and knew how to endow. PICKELNER: That is wonderful. It's wonderful that people who have money want to give it. KAPLAN: Yes. I want to tell you something, dear Dorothy. There is a great deal of money in this community and I think the right project will always elicit funds. I don't have any doubt of this whatsoever. Now, for example, I understand the Kivel is contemplating putting up a new nursing home on some vacant land that they have and using the present nursing home as a day care center, a program which I started years ago. They're going to issue bonds authorized by the county, I presume, just like Good Samaritan and other hospitals have done, Memorial Hospital and John C. Lincoln Hospital and so forth. I think they'll have no trouble getting the county to approve the sale of bonds. But I think that this community will oversubscribe the bonds If it's presented properly in the community because there is a genuine interest in the Kivel geriatric center, as long as the Kivel geriatric center fulfills the promise that its existence holds out to the Jewish community, in fact to the general community. PICKELNER: I hope you're speaking truly, and I think your judgment is correct. KAPLAN: I'm pretty sure that it is. We've never had any difficulty raising money. In fact, in the very beginning when I told you that HUD had given us $220,000 for the nursing home and we had had $105,000 from Kivel we still had to raise another $120,000 and we didn't have any trouble at first, but at the end the bank kept asking us, "Well, what about the rest of the money." It took us a couple of years to gather the rest of that dough, but every time we asked for money we always got it. PICKELNER: That just shows what a good project you had going and that the people had faith in you. Does HUD still exist? KAPLAN: Housing and Urban Development still exists but I think our present President has cut it down drastically. In fact, he may have actually killed it entirely so that low-cost housing for the poor I don't think will exist after this year or next year, which is a shame, a shame, because there are plenty of poor people who do not have proper housing. PICKELNER: Anything else you'd like to talk about, Hirsh, at this point, like something else that you -- KAPLAN: Well, I've been impressed by the fact that -- in fact, I was telling Helen just the other day that I notice that the Federation is going out to raise in excess of four million dollars, whereas when I was the director back all these many years we would have been happy to raise $400,000. That's the difference in the community then and now. PICKELNER: And of course inflation. KAPLAN: Yes. There's a lot more wealth In the community too. PICKELNER: It's there to be had If they're approached properly. KAPLAN: Well, I think a lot of people have resigned themselves to the fact that this Is now their home and they don't keep saying well, my home is in Cleveland or in Detroit or Chicago, or I gave In New York or I gave somewhere else, which was a constant refrain In the old days, you know. Incidentally, Dorothy, I don't think I've mentioned this. I remember that I was met when I first came for an interview, at the plane I was met by Herman Miller. When I got off the plane I thought I was walking into a furnace, it was so hot. Then the second time I came you and Sidney, your husband, met me and you took me out to dinner and you tried to tell me what had happened in this community by my predecessor, probably instigated or maybe innocently, who had really turned some people off. I would also like to add that the minutes of the Community Council must be found and preserved. PICKELNER: Thank you. [end of transcript]