..inte: Edward S. Herzberg ..intr: Bobbi Kurn ..da: 1992 ..cp: 1991.020.013 Around 1915, 23-month-old Ed Herzberg won a pretty baby contest and proudly displays his blue ribbon. ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Edward S. Herzberg March 23, 1992 Transcriptionist: Interviewer: Bobbi Kurn Log For Edward S. Herzberg Interview Page(s) 1 Grandparents from Europe Wolf Lukin Rose Lukin 1- 2 Brought family from Philadelphia Kalman Herzberg to Tempe Temma Herzberg 3- 4 Started Lukin Store; traded with Wolf Lukin Pima Indians Wolf Sachs Harry Friedman 5- 6 Early days in Phoenix 7 1902; parents marry 7 Prescott Adolph Blumberg 11-12 Sister Helen Lukin 14-15 1920 - first rabbi in Phoenix Rabbi Liknaitz Lillian Liknaitz Dukar family Getz family Irving Dukar 20-22 Growing up in Tempe 22-23 Temple Beth Israel Rabbi Krohn Eve 25-28 Attended ASU Charles Wecksler Mrs. Wecksler 26 Teaching career Larry Rubel Bob Frank 30-31 Met wife through cousin Elmer Lukin 31-32 In service during WWII 33 Taught religion Sam Kiviat 36-37 Daughter born 1947 Beryl Gail Druker 37-38 Taught driver education Bill Payne 38 Principle at Central Jimmy Carter Edward S. Herzberg Interview Kurn: This is Bobbi Kurn from the Jewish Historical Society and I'm interviewing Edward S. Herzberg. Is this your current address at 450 ... Herzberg: 45 D Kurn: Thank you. 45 D Calle Aragon, Laguna Hills, California. He was born December 12, 1913 in Phoenix, Arizona. His parents were Adolph Herzberg and Minnie Lukin Herzberg and he is married to Berta S. Herzberg and they have one child, Beryl Gail Druker. Well thank you for allowing me to come in and interview you. That's very nice of you. Let's start at your grandparents. Do you know where they were born? Herzberg: Somewhere near Latvia or Lithuania. Somewhere not too far from Riga or Countas. Kurn: Their names were ... Herzberg: Wolf Lukin and Rose. I never knew my grandmother, she passed away before I was born. Kurn: And Wolf and Rose were your mother's parents? Herzberg: Mother's parents. And my father's parents were Kalman Herzberg... K A L M A N and Temma was her first name. T E M M A. Kurn: O.K. And were they all from the same place? Herzberg: No. They were from an area known as Kurlon which is East Prussia and it's on the border of Poland and Germany. Kurn: And they lived their whole lives there? Herzberg: No. My parents and my mother's father brought them over from Europe. Brought the entire family, the Herzberg family, except for three that were already here, brought them over in 19.., I'm trying to figure it out now, about 1908. The entire Herzberg family was brought to the United States. Those that were left. My grandfather and I have written, have given a written statement of that whole family that they have at the Historical Society. He came to Philadelphia about 1889 and brought his entire family from Europe around, it was around 1888 or 1889. In 1902 he came to Arizona. Kurn: Now which grandfather was ... Herzberg: Now this is all my mother's family. Kurn: So Wolf came to Phoenix, came to Arizona ... Herzberg: Came to Tempe. Kurn: Came to Tempe in 1902? Herzberg: Yes. Oh, no I am wrong, I beg your pardon. In 1892, 1892 and two years later in 1894 he brought his entire family out from Philadelphia with the exception of one son who he left in Philadelphia working as a cigar maker. Apprentice. Kurn: What brought him to Tempe? Herzberg: He had a cousin who had a cattle ranch. A small cattle ranch south of Tempe. His name was Wolf Sachs. He's also buried out in Beth Israel Cemetery. Kurn: S A C ? Herzberg: S A C H S. And we found, and he brought him out because my grandfather had been a forester in Europe and he needed someone to help him run the cattle ranch. So he came to Tempe. At that time the ranch was just south of Tempe. So we found that my grandfather, after working there two years and bringing his family out, wanted to live in town so he built a small little house in Tempe at 5th and ah ... on 5th Street and Myrtle in Tempe. And being an enterprising man he saw that the Indians were coming to town selling their wood and hay from a rock across the river in Tempe, the Salt River Reservation, and so he decided that he would start a little store to trade with the Indians, and in doing so he bought all of the wood, it was mesquite at the time that the Indians cut up, and the hay that they grew and became their middle man- With that he started his business. Kurn: What was the name of his business? Herzberg: Lukin store. Kurn: I like it. Herzberg: Then the Indians he provided, and it grew quite rapidly. And he provided a barn and a place for the Indians to park their wagons when they came to town on weekends. He also built a privy for them out on the back of his lot. Now this was a small house at the time. We found that he was so well liked that the time of his death, about as many Indians came to the funeral, and that was in 1931, as did, and he hadn't traded with them in a number of years at that time. So it's kind of interesting. He started another enterprise in Tempe. He put 100-gallon tank on back of a wagon and went around and sprinkled the streets in front of people's houses for a fee and he did that till about 1900 and then the city took it over and did it from then on. But with that he built his business and he had a general store and the bulk of his trade was with the Indians really. Kurn: Why would he water the streets? Herzberg: To keep the dust down. Because there wasn't a paved street, of course, of any kind in town. It was real dusty and he started in the summer time. He even used a couple of his sons to drive the wagon. I can recall as a little kid those wagons with the tanks still parked in the back of his, out back by his barn. Kurn: Now this is your grandfather that did this? Herzberg: Grandfather, yes. So, this is the way he got started. When he brought his family out, his wife, Rose, was a business woman too. And so they, what they did, they put an addition on to their house, which they opened as their store, and she literally ran the store and he did the trading with the Indians more than anything else. Kurn: Why did the Indians need a middle man? Middle person? Herzberg: Because they used to go around house to house selling their stuff and so, he just became friendly with them. He learned to speak Pima fluently, he spoke Spanish fluently, he was fluent in English with almost no accent of any kind ... he was just a remarkable man. Very enterprising as far as that's concerned. in fact, in my lifetime, I was actually closer to him than I was to my own parents, my own father. Kurn: How do you account for the Indians trusting him? Herzberg: I don't know. He also had one working for him. I was raised by Indian girls, so was my sister, my brother, because the Pimas seemed to trust him. Because he learned their language I think, is probably more of it than anything else. it's kind of interesting too that there was nothing Kosher around as far as that was concerned in those days. So, he had been trained in the Talmud, in Europe, and ... in fact he brought a Torah with him when he came, I believe it was given to the temple at one time very early in history when they tried to first start a temple. Kurn: Which temple? Herzberg: Beth Israel. It was the forerunner to Beth Israel. I don't know what they called it in those days. Before my time. And the thing was that he had learned to kill chickens in the Kosher method. He never wrung the chicken's neck; he always used a knife. He would always hang them up and let them dry, let the blood drain out. So that was his background. Yet, my background in temple didn't start until I was much older, until they really began to organize the temple in Phoenix. Kurn: Would he sell those Kosher chickens? Herzberg: No. That was just for personal use. Kurn: And did he read from the Torah? Herzberg: Oh yes, very diffidently. (definitely?) Kurn: Would he have services for other Jewish people? Herzberg: No. He seemed to combine with Harry Friedman, who was an early man in town, and you'll find a lot about Harry Friedman in the background, and they used to literally get together to conduct services about the same time we find as, possibly, the Korricks and that group came to town. They came a year or two earlier. But he was friendly with them. They were all friends. Because Tempe was on the bend of the river, a lot of those people used to come over there for picnics down at the bend of the river, which they called the Point in those days. it was still down there when I was a kid. Kurn: What else would they do in those days? Herzberg: Well, possibly they used to go on an awful lot of picnics, take buggies out to the Hole in the Rock, places like that, which is about 4 miles from town, 4 or 5 miles from Tempe. And, as far as I know, that's about it. That I can recall. Kurn: Where is the ... What is the Hole in the Rock? Herzberg: It's still out in Papago Park. Kurn: Really? Herzberg: Yeah, it's a site out there still. People still go out to Papago Park not too far from the Hunt Monument out there. Old timers know the Hole in the Rock is a picnic area. Kurn: Did your grandmother Rose work? Herzberg: In the store. She died about 6 months before I was born. So I know very little about her. Other than hearsay. Same thing happened to a number of my uncles and so on of the group. Kurn: Did you hear any other stories about grandfather in those early, early days? Herzberg: Oh, there were a lot of stories about him as far as that's concerned. He was on the City Council in Tempe for a number of years. He was very active in the community. Because he came from Philadelphia he was about the only Republican in town. But, he never got real active in politics other than the City Council. Now my mother was his oldest daughter. She met my father when he opened a small store in Phoenix and they were married in 1902. Kurn: Who married them? Herzberg: They were married by a judge in the court. I have the ... the Historical Society has a copy of the wedding announcement which I gave them in the earlier report that I gave them. They were married twice. It was written up in the paper. First by the judge and then the Jewish wedding was by Mr. Harry Friedman. Kurn: Same Harry Friedman? Herzberg: Same Harry Friedman. He was a bachelor but he carried on the traditions of Judaism quite a bit in the community until they formally organized a temple type thing. Kurn: So he wasn't an ordained rabbi? Herzberg: No way, no. No he was an insurance salesman. Kurn: Could he read from the Torah? Herzberg: Oh yes. Well my father could too. My father came out ... was one of the greenies that came to Prescott to work for an uncle after his Bar Mitzvah. Brought him straight out from Europe to work up in Prescott for his uncle who was a Blumberg up there. Kurn: How do you spell that? Herzberg: B L U M B E R G. Kurn: What was his first name? Herzberg: Adolph. Same as my dad's. Kurn: Did you know that uncle? Herzberg: I didn't know him. No. There were a number of Blumbergs that lived in Prescott. There is quite a bit of history of them up there, but my dad was barely 20 years old. He sent him down to Phoenix to open a store on his own. He was just over 20 and mother was, just was 18 when they were married. Kurn: Do you know how they met? Herzberg: I have no idea how they met except as young people get together. Probably my grandparents invited him over to Tempe or something like that. He and a younger brother opened that store. Kurn: Now, was Tempe considered a big city? Herzberg: No, but they settled there. They settled in Tempe, my folks settled in Phoenix. But then they moved to Tempe at a later date. Kurn: Would people who lived in Tempe tend to come into Phoenix to visit? Herzberg: Some. Kurn: Or was that considered too far? Herzberg: Oh no. They used to drive a buggy from Tempe to Phoenix. My dad used to talk about going to Phoenix or when they lived in Phoenix they would drive on weekends, they would drive the buggy over. Kurn: I wonder how long it took. Herzberg: About an hour and a half to two hours. Kurn: Really? Herzberg: Yeah. it was nine miles. Kurn: All dirt road. Herzberg: All dirt road. Had to ford the river. Kurn: What does that mean? Herzberg: They had to cross the river itself. The only bridge across in those days was the railroad bridge. Kurn: So how did they cross the river? Herzberg: Went right through the river. The road went through the river. It was before the bridge was built. Kurn: And got wet? Herzberg: Well there wasn't much water in it even then. Not a lot of water in the river. Never was a lot of water unless it flooded and then it was real rough. I remember the floods in those days. Kurn: What was Tempe known for? Herzberg: Well there was a big flour mill there. It was mainly agriculture. Everything south of town was agriculture. There were a number of ranches, they're still there. They have pretty much disappeared now. I spent my entire youth in Tempe except for four years. Kurn: What kind of stories did your parents tell about their early married days? Herzberg: Most of the time they talked about, of course my brother was born in 1903, about a year, year and a half after they were married, so they were busy raising a child very early. But again, they moved back to Tempe, my father went bankrupt in Phoenix so they moved back to Tempe and he worked with my granddad in Tempe for a number of years. And that's when, my dad always had the idea that he had to get his parents from Europe to move to this country. So then he, another of his brothers who lived in Los Angeles and my mother's father raised the money and brought the entire family over. They brought them over around 1908 if I remember correctly. Now they brought them directly by train after they came over on the boat, by train to Tempe, where he outfitted them all and dressed them all and because there was nothing kosher in the area and my father's father was a kosher butcher from Europe, they shipped him to Los Angeles to the other brother to watch out for them. So they all settled in Los Angeles. They all grew up there. Kurn: Did they go from Europe to New York? Herzberg: They came to New York as my father did. My grandfather went from Europe to Philadelphia and that's where he settled first before coming out to Arizona. Kurn: How did they go across the country? Herzberg: Train. The trains started running, I believe the first one that went into Phoenix was around 1888 and he came in about 1889, the second year the trains ran. There was no main line coming into Phoenix in those days. The train went, it was Southern Pacific, went down through Tucson, El Paso, Tucson then over to Yuma and over to Los Angeles. To get to Phoenix you had to transfer at Maricopa. The little town of Maricopa which is a wide spot in the road even today. You took the Arizona Easter which came down to Phoenix. Kurn: Train? Herzberg: Train. It crossed the bridge at Tempe and went into Phoenix and that's where it ended. Kurn: Oh really? Herzberg: Yeah, that was the end of the line. Kurn: So it would turn around and go back? Herzberg: It would turn around and go back to Maricopa. Kurn: And that was the end of the line that way? Herzberg: That was the end of the line for that railroad. Kurn: How many miles was that? Herzberg: Let's see ... about forty miles. Kurn: Isn't that something. Herzberg: Now the other railroad came in later. The Santa Fe came in, I think it was around 1899, the Santa Fe came into Phoenix from the main line clear up in northern Arizona from the Santa Fe. it came down through Prescott and so on. That's how my dad came down to Phoenix was on the railroad from Prescott to Phoenix. This is pretty well the way they got around. As I said, I have quite a detailed one that I wrote up before and I think Babe has a copy of that. Kurn: In the Jewish Historical ... Herzberg: Yes, I gave it to her last year. I've done a complete video,presentation of my family coming to Arizona. It brings it up to about 1920. Kurn: Good. That's helpful. Herzberg: So I can pretty well document everything. in fact I spent a lot of time at Arizona State University and at the new Museum in Tempe before, well it's newer now but, when I did it with the help of my wife, we went over and got all these documents. I've got a lot of newspaper clippings, copies of them. Kurn: Tell me about life when your dad and mom were first married with these children. Herzberg: They only had one. They only had my brother. I didn't come along for another ten and a half years. But they did raise my sister who is really a double cousin. Kurn: In what way? Herzberg: Well, her mother was my dad's sister. Kurn: What was her name? Herzberg: My sister? Helen. She went by the name of Lukin because her mother was my dad's sister and her father was my mother's brother. We have three sets like that in the family. My dad's oldest sister, Lucille, married my Uncle Abe who was my mother's next brother. So we have three sets of people marrying in the same family. When my sister, and she is a sister in every sense of the word, when she was six months old her mother died. Her father knew he couldn't raise her so my mother took her over and raised her from the time she was about six months old. Just like a sister. We are very, very close. in fact that's why we're in California because my sister lives there. In the same place we do. Kurn: Did many people do that? Have this relationship? Herzberg: I don't know how many did. I know it happened in our family. Kurn: Why did it happen, do you think? Herzberg: Well, primarily, there were not too many Jewish people at the time is one reason. Another is that they, as I understand it, my grandfather was unhappy about those marriages. Not so much with my sister's mother and father, but more of my Aunt Lucille and Uncle Abe because there was sort of a little friction there at the time. But my grandfather accepted very much. Kurn: Did he ever remarry, your grandfather? Herzberg: Never remarried. He lost his wife in 1913 and he passed away in 1931. Kurn: And he stayed active all those years? Herzberg: Very active all those years. He was quite a sportsman and he hunted and fished and did all those things. Kurn: In Tempe? Herzberg: All around. We used to go deer hunting out of Tempe. Went dove hunting. Birds. He took me everywhere he went. As I say, I was very close, he taught me to swim when I was four years old. He gave me an automobile when I was thirteen. He gave me a Model T Ford when I was thirteen. That was legal in Arizona then. Kurn: What would you do with that Model T? Herzberg: I ran all over with it. School. Drove it all over the state of Arizona. Kurn: Did you really? Herzberg: I used to drive up to Roosevelt dam in the thing. The roads would be so steep you would have to back up the hills cause you couldn't get gas in the carburetor. We went down to Horse Mesa dam and down there on the old Apache trail. Kurn: You would go backwards? Herzberg: Yeah. You put it in reverse to go up the hill because it would be so steep you couldn't get gas to the carburetor. Kurn: That's different. Herzberg: Well, I mean everyone who drove a Model T in those days, if you knew anything about a Model T, the gas tank was underneath the seat. If you go up a steep hill the front of the car would be higher than the seat, therefore you couldn't get any gas in the car. So, you turned in reverse and you backed them up. We were ingenious as kids, and so on. Kurn: How did you stay cool in the summer? Herzberg: Didn't worry about it. We all had screen porches. We used to have screened porches built on the side of every house. What you did, if it was extremely hot, you would soak a bunch of sheets and put those over your wet sheets. Then about 1932 a barber in Tempe took a fan and put it in front, and had an excelsior for water coming down, you know what these swamp coolers are they use today? That was the first one I ever saw. I built one for my folks in those days. Kurn: How big? Herzberg: Oh, one that used a twenty-four inch fan. Kurn: And it worked? Herzberg: It worked, sure. Better than no cooling. We had one when we were married. Not like that, but we had a commercial one. Air conditioning is comparatively new. Kurn: Were your parents involved in anything Jewish when they were young? Herzberg: Yeah. My mother was very active in the Council of Jewish Women. In fact one year she was president of it. My father was not active directly in the Temple. Then the first rabbi came to Phoenix, we were living in Tempe, they spent almost every weekend with us. Rabbi Liknaitz. That was in the early 20s. L I K N A I T Z. Kurn: Young man when he came? Herzberg: He had a wife and a child at the time. I believe it was about 1921. Kurn: That was the first rabbi? Herzberg: That was the first permanent rabbi that we had here. They got him from Los Angeles if I remember correctly. Kurn: Do you remember him? Herzberg: I remember him quite well. Kurn: What was he like? Herzberg: He was more of a college professor than he was a rabbi, really. I remember his wife quite well. She was an accomplished pianist and she taught piano. Kurn: What was her first name? Herzberg: Oh God. I think her name was Lillian. Herzberg: Ruth? Herzberg: No, it wasn't Ruth, I know. In fact, their daughter married my brother-in-law's brother. They were only married a very short time. They met through my sister introducing them. It was long after Liknaitz had died. Kurn: What did he do as a rabbi? Herzberg: He was a very reformed rabbi. Extremely reformed. The temple in those days was a very reformed temple. He, if I recall, he conducted services. If I remember, the first Jewish experience I had as a kid, when I was in about the sixth or seventh grade, other than in the family, they ... I believe it was over on 2nd Avenue at the music, they have sort of a music center there that they used to meet. They had a Sunday school there for a while, my folks would bring me over from Tempe, my granddad would bring me over. We attended a little bit, not very much, because Tempe of course was quite a long...there was only one other Jewish family in Tempe that I can ever recall at that time up till I was in high school. That was the Dukar family. D U K A R. Mrs. Dukar's brother lived there for many years after, his name was Getz. G E T Z. Kurn: Do you remember the first names of the Dukars? Herzberg: Their son who was my age was Irving, I know that. I think he ended up as a pit boss in Las Vegas the last I heard of him. Kurn: So there were just the two Jewish families in Tempe? Herzberg: That's all there were in Tempe. That's all there ever was, to my knowledge, up until possibly the '30s. Kurn: Was there any prejudice? Anti-semitism? Herzberg: I never ran into it. I was accepted. I went to all the functions. Even went to a dance out at the original Jokake which was unheard of in those days. Kurn: What's Jokake? Herzberg: That was a winter resort run by the Evans family and that was the most prejudicial one of all. It made Camelback Inn look like a liberal group. The original Camelback Inn, which of course was very prejudicial, if you know anything about the history of Phoenix. Kurn: They let you go to a dance there? Herzberg: I did. I knew the family. I went to high school with the Evans kids. Kurn: But they wouldn't let you join? Herzberg: What's that? Kurn: Was it a club? Herzberg: No. Jokake Inn was a resort out there. Kurn: Could you have slept there? Herzberg: I doubt it. I don't know. I have no idea. it never came up. I never ran into it up until later life, until I was in college. Kurn: Did your parents observe any of the holidays? Herzberg: All of them. We never missed a holiday. We had our own service if we didn't go to Phoenix for the high holidays. I don't recall a single time ever missing a seder. We had, in fact, my granddad observed them very carefully. On the other hand, when the temple was reformed, they didn't wear a tallis or a yarmulke, that went with him fine. Didn't bother him. Even though he had tremendous background in his early life of learning. He was a Talmud scholar and all this. Yet that didn't bother him at all. Kurn: Did he teach you any traditions? Herzberg: We observed every ... Now, we observed for example, Passover was one night. All of these things were single night things. We didn't go to school on the holidays. We never did. Something interesting later, in teaching too, when I started teaching they wouldn't let off for the holidays. That went for a long time. Till after World War II. Kurn: How did you get matzo living in Tempe? Herzberg: It was sent in. Before there were any stores or anyone that handled it, my grandparents in Los Angeles used to send it to us. They would order it and they would send it. We always had matzo, we always ...we observed every holiday. Even at times, even Purim at times. But the major holidays were always observed. Kurn: How about Shabbot? Herzberg: We would have, if nothing else, my granddad would say a prayer for Shabbot. That was all. in my immediate family, no, not so much. My granddad retained his ... amazing thing is he never kept kosher. There was no way he could. But he did not mix milk with meat. I can still remember that. Never allowed any pork in the house. Never anything of that type. These are things that his tradition just stayed with him all that time. Kurn: Did he live with you after ... Herzberg: No, oh no. He always lived alone. Until, well, the last six years he lived together with us. But it was his house. He built it himself. He owned a tremendous amount of property at one time in Tempe which we lost. in fact, he owned the corner of 5th Street and Myrtle clear back to where the cotton gin was back there. Where all the Indians used to park their stuff and all that. He owned a lot of that. He owned a square block just beyond the City Hall. Part of the land he owned he contributed some of it to building of the City Hall in Tempe. The original City Hall there. He was very well thought of in the community and as a leader of the community. He was anti-alcohol as he could get. They would tell of the fights he used to have with the local saloon keeper because they would sell stuff to the Indians and he'd get madder than the devil. One of the highlights of it, I don't know if I wrote that in the other, of his association with the Indians, he would never give the money to the Indians when they came in with their wood and all. He would buy their stuff and he had a great big safe, and he would put their share of the money, with their name on it, in the safe. When they would go home, he would never give the money to the men, he would always hand it to the woman and would tell her to keep it and take it and don't let the buck have it before he leaves town. He was that type of an individual. And when he died, did the Indians just stop trading with the white people? Herzberg: They had stopped trading long before that. He quit trading with the Indians; they quit coming in about 1925-26. They had their own cooperative on the reservation out there. They still came to see him, they still bought their Levis from him, they still did that. He also was quite a tinkerer. He could take things apart and put them together again like anything you ever saw. He always had all kinds of things down in his, down in the basement of his store. He, in his store, he made his own baking powder that he used to sell, he used to do things like that. Just a remarkable man. Kurn: What else did he sell in the store? Herzberg: General merchandise. He had groceries, small amount of groceries for them, and mostly things that the Indians would buy. Levis, denim shirts, you know, all that type thing. He had yard goods for them, shoes, pretty well a general store. As the road was built and as they built the bridge across the river with prison labor and all, then people began to go to Phoenix more. The road was open, the automobile came along, and that pretty well killed the business as far as that was concerned. Kurn: But he had customers other than the Indians? or mostly Indians? Herzberg: Mostly Indians, right. But they opened a store in Tempe where the Post Office is now, he and my dad. A general merchandise store. They did pretty well until the 1921 great depression. They got wiped out because of the credit deal and the farmers that all went broke at that time. So '21 was a real wipe out as far as his business ventures were concerned. Later in life he kept a small dry goods store in downtown Tempe, but not very big or anything. Kurn: How did he lose the land? Herzberg: He didn't. We did. in the depression. We lost all his land. Couldn't keep up the mortgages. It had been mortgaged. And taxes were high. By that time my family had all moved to Phoenix, and so we were living in Phoenix at the time. Kurn: When did you move to Phoenix? Herzberg: I never did until I started teaching. Kurn: Oh really? You stayed in Tempe? Herzberg: Oh yeah. Well, my folks lived in, my dad became a traveling salesman and we made our home there to take care of my granddad. I went all through high school, elementary school, everything except four years that we lived in California. Kurn: You were in Tempe all those years? Herzberg: Tempe is my home ... in fact, at the present time, I just got a letter, next month they're having a reunion of all the high school graduates up to about 1950. I went last year but I'm not going back. There are only four left in my class. Kurn: What was Tempe like in those days for you? Herzberg: Wonderful little town. I loved every bit of it. The university at the time, the college at that time, had about 1,000 students. It was a small little town. There were forty-three in my high school graduating class. Kurn: What was the name of the school? Herzberg: Tempe Union High School. It's on the corner of 8th and Mill. They call it University and Mill now. Where there is a shopping center. That was the original high school. Kurn: What do you remember about the town? Herzberg: Oh, it was a wonderful place to grow up because we went down to the river a lot. The municipal swimming pool there, all those things in Tempe. Everything a kid could want. in fact, I rarely went to Phoenix. I stayed in Tempe and Mesa quite a bit, in that whole area on the south side. Kurn: Did they have movie theaters? Herzberg: Oh yeah, they had a movie theater in Tempe. They had just about everything you could ask for in a small town. it was a wonderful place to grow up. Small, didn't worry about it. The only thing we hadn't ... nothing religious as far as Judaism was concerned, no way. There weren't enough people to even think ... well, there were only two families even when I graduated out of high school. Kurn: Were you close? The two families? Herzberg: Not too close, not too close. When I was in high school he and I used to come over to Phoenix to the, when they had the Hillel Society, Group, that met in Phoenix, they had, I forget what they called it, it's where I met Cecil Newmark and Morry Gerst and that whole group. Kurn: The men's club? Herzberg: They had sort of a men's club. They had a couple situations that the two of us would come ... that was about the only Jewish contact that I had. My mother used to love to come to Temple so I used bring her over on Friday nights. After all, I was driving a car from the time I was thirteen. Kurn: That was a long ride for you. Herzberg: It wasn't bad in those days. It was about a twenty-five minute drive. The temple then was on 2nd and Culver. Kurn: Did they call it Beth Israel? Herzberg: Always. Since 1920 I know it was called Beth Israel. END OF SIDE ONE Kurn: Let's see, I think I asked you if your dad would come into temple. Herzberg: Oh yes, if he was in town. My granddad would come with us too. Kurn: What were services like? Herzberg: They were extremely reformed. Again, each rabbi that we had in those days when we had Rabbi Horwitz who was followed by my favorite rabbi of all times who was Krohn, who, to me was one of the greatest teachers I ever had. Kurn: In what way? Herzberg: Well, he was a sociologist and he taught religion as part of one's life. As far as I'm concerned, he was a great teacher. I always looked up to him. He used to visit our family quite often. He'd come to Tempe with his wife. It was an interesting experience with him. used to sit and talk and argue with him a lot. Not necessarily religious items. On almost anything. As I say, he was truly a sociologist more than he was a rabbi. He was so well thought of in our community as you probably have heard many times. Did you know him? Kurn: No. Herzberg: He was a very remarkable man from the standpoint that he understood people. He often would get you into an argument just to make you learn something from him. I enjoyed him so much. I think he married my-- no, he didn't marry my brother and his wife. Jaffa was here at that time. Krohn was a remarkable man. After, in later life, after he had retired, I often used to sit and talk to him many times. Kurn: Were you confirmed or bar mitzvahed? Herzberg: I was neither bar mitzvahed nor confirmed. They didn't have it in those days. They didn't have bar mitzvah. To my knowledge, at all in those days. The first bar mitzvah that I can remember would be in the '30s possibly, early '30s. I don't think there were any before then to my knowledge. of course, I was not the most active in the Temple till well after I was through school and graduated and started teaching. Kurn: There weren't any cute girls your age, high school age, there? Herzberg: As far as Jewish girls? I never dated a Jewish girl in my life till I met my wife and we were married. I had, not even a casual date, trying to think of some of them, I can't even think of any of them at the present time, because I truly never associated in Phoenix very much at all. My association with those from Phoenix, would be if they would come on a picnic, as they often did, to the Tempe Beach swimming pool which was the best swimming pool in the whole valley at the time. The only other one like it was Riverside, so whenever they were going to have a high school group come over, and at times I worked at the swimming pool, I'd hear they were coming and I would meet with them. That's where I met a number of them. Molly Fried's husband used to come over and Morry Gerst used to come over and that age group used to come over. I was a little younger than most of those people. Kurn: What made the swimming pool so special? Herzberg: Well they had a wonderful picnic area and it was a great big swimming pool. It was an Olympic size swimming pool. It was since reduced the size of it to about half. And it was sort of a ... the real swimming pool gathering place of the whole valley ... was at Tempe Beach. And they had big picnic areas down there. it was a very clean pool and was well supervised. So it became really the center. The small pool that's there right now, it's still there, but it's nothing like it used to be. in fact they even had the women's national there one year. Things like that. Eleanor Holm swam there. At a swimming meet. I was working at the pool at the time. But growing up in Tempe was unique because it was a small town and instead of going to Phoenix to a lot of things we went to Mesa for much of our social life. Kurn: Oh really? What did Mesa have? Herzberg: Mormon girls. I learned to dance at the Mormon church. Kurn: Good memories? Herzberg: Yeah. It was nice. I still have many of those friends. I still communicate with one or two of them every once in a while. I went to college with many of them. Kurn: It was a strong Mormon community there? Herzberg: Very strong. Kurn: In Mesa? Herzberg: In Tempe. Tempe too. In fact when I was at college one year I played basketball for the Mormons, for the Tempe ward in the Mormon church and we won the valley and had to go up to Snowflake to play in the finals and they disqualified us because we had one Jew, two Catholics and a Methodist on the team and they threw us out of the tournament. Kurn: That's a good story. Herzberg: Yeah . Of course I got all my college education, except for one year, at ASU. I went to the University of Colorado one year. I didn't like it. I loved ASU. Kurn: What did they call it in those days? Herzberg: Originally it was Tempe Normal School. Then it became Arizona State College. When I went there it was Arizona State College. Then it was changed, no it was Tempe State College then it was Arizona State College, then it became Arizona State University. What growth. This whole area, of course, after World War it is when it all began to really grow. Kurn: What years did you go to ASU? Herzberg: I started ASU in 1931 and stayed out almost two years between '33 and '34 and I went back and got my bachelor's in 1938 and my master's in 1939. I started teaching in Phoenix then. My first year I taught school in Miami, Arizona for $1,200 a year. The next year I came ... I got a job in Phoenix. Superintendent Montgomery asked me what I had come for and he offered me $1,400 a year. That was my first year teaching in Phoenix. Kurn: Where did you teach? Herzberg: I started at Phoenix Union then I taught at North and then I went in the army. When I got out after three years I came back and I taught at Phoenix Union in the morning and North in the afternoon. They moved me to North, then from North to West, from West back to Phoenix Union and Phoenix Union went to Central. I stayed there the rest of the time. Kurn: What did you teach mostly? Herzberg: Government and economics. I was head of the social studies department at Central for 23 years. Great experience there because of the type of students we had and so on. Kurn: What years would that have been? Herzberg: I started at Central, I believe in '57 and I retired ... no I started in '54 and I retired in, full time retirement in '77 then I taught for two years after that until '79, part time after I retired. They let you work a couple of years. I took early retirement. Kurn: You probably had my children. Herzberg: Could be. I taught there from ... I still see a number of students that I've had. Kurn: Can we go back to ASU for a minute, when you went to school there, What kind of ... describe the school to me in those days. Herzberg: In those days? There were two types of curriculum that you had to take at that school. You either took a liberal arts course or you went to teachers college. I started in liberal arts and then I stayed out of school for a couple of years, I went back and pretty well stayed in liberal arts. My folks wanted me to go to medical school and I wasn't interested. I hadn't the science background there. I got interested in social studies. I branched into that. That and physical education. In 1938 they were ... I had all the credits I needed to graduate at the semester but they didn't have semester graduation so I took graduate work my second semester in my last year in '38 and I finished all but my master's. Between that and summer school I got the job in Miami, wrote my thesis while I was teaching up in Miami and at the end of that year I got my master's degree. Second class to get a masters at ASU. Kurn: What year would that have been? Herzberg: 1939. Kurn: Did they have fraternities or any kind of social clubs? Herzberg; Yes, they had fraternities. I belonged to one. They were ... It wasn't a Jewish fraternity. it was a local. There was nothing religious about it. Kurn: Do you remember what it was called. Herzberg: Well, Lambda Phi Sigma then, it's changed to Sigma Nu and I did not go national with them when it ... I was invited to. Kurn: And what kind of events or things, no Hillel I assume. no Jewish ... Herzberg: Not then. Not in those days. There was nothing Jewish ... we were... my folks by the way, were very, very close to one of the Jewish professor at ASU, one of the early ones, it was Dr. Wechsler, Charles Wechsler. His wife is, if she's still alive, still lives in Tempe. Kurn: What was her first name? Herzberg: Ooh. I can't think of her name. My wife would know it. We were very close to them for a long, long time. Whenever a Jewish family would be on the faculty or anything to do in the area, my folks gathered them in. Kurn: Did they? Herzberg: They were very aware of their Jewishness. They were most happy when all of our family married into the faith. They didn't think I ever would. That's pretty well the way it was. Kurn: Many Jewish students when you were there? Herzberg: At ASU? Very few. I doubt of the 1,000 students if there were 20 it would be a lot. Maybe a little more than that. When I graduated there were about 45 or 50, when I graduated, when I got my bachelor's degree and not too many of them ended up teaching. I was the first Jewish teacher at Phoenix Union District. There was one that could have been. He was the football coach. Larry Rubel at the time. But I doubt if he was. He didn't acknowledge it. Kurn: That he was Jewish? Herzberg: Yes. Not to my knowledge. He didn't take part in any Jewish activities. There was another one at Phoenix College at one time that didn't acknowledge it either. His name was Bob Frank. He taught in the high school when I did. At North High. I tried to get him interested but he wasn't. In the high school district I never had a problem of any kind. They would not let me take off the Jewish holidays until after the war. After World War II. Then a number of Jewish faculty members appeared in the Phoenix Union District. But up until then there were none to my knowledge. I don't know of anyone before World War II that were in the district. Kurn: Did you feel isolated as a Jew? Herzberg: Not at all. Not at all. I asked to get off on the holidays one year, about 1941, just before I went in the service, and they said we have no policy. You can take off but it will cost you a day's pay. Kurn: Do you remember what you did? Herzberg: Yeah, I taught school. if you're making about $1,600 a year, a day's pay is quite a bit of money. After World War II there was a decided change in attitude. Because a number of Jewish teachers did come into the district. And then they ... being on the salary committee right after the war, we put in personal leave, which allowed you two days personal leave a year to be charged against your sick leave. You could take it for the holidays. I was instrumental on the salary committee getting that put in. Kurn: How interesting. Herzberg: I was very interested in getting that particular aspect into the district. Kurn: That was your grandfather talking in you? Herzberg: I don't know what it was but we very definitely put that in at that time. And they've had it ever since. in fact it doesn't count against their pay leave anymore. I mean against their sick leave. There were a number of things like that that have occurred in the Phoenix Union District. it's a good district to work in. Kurn: Tell me how you met your wife. Herzberg: A cousin of mine was living in Kingman. His name was Elmer Lukin. He was working for the state inspection ... agricultural inspection station and he never thought of being Jewish himself. He never practiced anything to speak of. His family never insisted he go anywhere. They lived in Chandler as he grew up. That's further away than Tempe to Phoenix. And it was a small town and so on. So he had no Jewish education. But he had a feeling for Jewishness probably through his ... cause he used to spend summers with my grandparents in California which I never did. A couple of gals came with their uncle through the inspection station. it was hot. He suggested they go to a motel and spend the night in Kingman. He went in, started talking to this gal and soon married her. She was my wife's best friend. When they were married they opened this ... soon after that ... his father had a store in Casa Grande and they opened a store in Casa Grande. So, she invited my wife to come out.... Kurn: From? Herzberg: From Chicago. This was 1939...'38. Knowing I was ... they wanted a Jewish date for her. Knowing I taught school in Phoenix at the time they asked me to come out and go spend the evening with them. We went to Tucson from there and so on. So I spent the weekend at my cousins with them. We sort of hit it off at that time. That was in May I think. The following August I went back to Chicago and we were married. Kurn: Wow. Herzberg: Through hard times and all we've been married 51 years. Kurn: Brought her back to Tempe and Phoenix? Herzberg: To Phoenix. I lived in Phoenix at the time. Kurn: Was there a community of young Jewish couples at that time? Herzberg: In Phoenix? Yeah. in Phoenix, yes, it had begun to develop in Phoenix in '38, '39. I was married ... we were married a year, about two years, about three years when I went into the service. I was gone for three years. She was with me most of the time. Fought the whole war in the United States. Fortunately. I was very fortunate. I became a meteorology instructor. I went to cadet school. I was commissioned in Grand Rapids, Michigan in '43 and they sent me back to Santa Ana after I was commissioned in Grand Rapids and after that, when I got to Santa Ana for assignment they said, "We have an opening at a base called Marana, I think it's New Mexico". I said I'll take it. I knew right where it was. It's right out of Tucson. So we were stationed in Tucson for two years. We were pretty well together all during the war except when I was in cadet school, which was about six months in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She lived in Chicago with her folks while I was there. Kurn: So then you moved to Phoenix after the war? Herzberg: We've lived in Phoenix ever since. We lived in Phoenix at the time we were married. I was teaching school in Phoenix. Kurn: Did you join the temple? Herzberg: Oh yes. Kurn: Or were you a member? Herzberg: Always a member. I've been a member ever since I've lived in Arizona. My folks were members, I was a member. I taught Sunday School. I taught Sunday School for about six years. Probably more than that. Later I was chairman of the lecture series that they had at the temple. Remember that? I got to introduce Art Buchwald and a few others at the time. And when they had the ... that was a lot of headaches but it was fun. We were very active in the temple. I was not active in the brotherhood but I was very active in the temple. I was on the temple board for a while, soon after Plotkin came. I was on the board for a number of years. And when they created the museum. That was the thing I wanted. I worked in museums. That's the one thing I miss living in California. That fact that I don't have access to their museum here. Because the museum itself met every criteria that I wanted in a museum. It was a teaching museum. I became... I was a temple guide too... and I became the docent that they assigned all Christians that came through the museum and temple. Kurn: How come? Herzberg: Because I taught comparative religion at one time at Phoenix College. I know about as much about Catholicism, Mormonism and Fundamentalism as the Christians themselves do. I took a number of courses in them. I pretty well know what their thinking was and how they think. In fact, just before we left I was assigned the job of talking about ...explaining Judaism to them at the Episcopal church on North Central. I went out there ... well, Sam Kiviat did first and when Sam Kiviat left I went there until we moved. I went there ... they had me at least twice a year come out, answer their questions about Judaism and so on. They very carefully assigned me Christian groups and I was the temple guide. I took the first group of nuns through the temple and explained and had them at the Friday night service. I sat with them and explained the whole thing to them. That's always been ... that's the part of Judaism I love. Telling people what it is. That's why I've enjoyed ... that's what I miss the most where we are now. Our temple now is one without a rabbi. It's one where the members themselves run the service. There's seven retired rabbis that do belong but they never conduct the service. It's a very difficult group ... it's a very clannish group and I don't care too much for them but I belong to their temple anyway. We just joined a new havurah group which is quite interesting. Kurn: Tell me about your first house in Phoenix? Herzberg: The first house that we bought in Phoenix was on 17th Avenue just south of Encanto Blvd. Right next to the fairground fence. it was built by Alfred Anderson. In those days we paid $3,900 for it. it was a two bedroom house. Nice and spacious. Kurn: It was already built? Herzberg: No, we bought as it was being built. We lived in a small apartment till then. That was our first house. Kurn: What was it like? Herzberg: It was a two bedroom, one bath house. Had about 1,000 square feet in it. It had a big yard. Kurn: Front and back? Herzberg: Front and back. it backed right up to the fairground walls of the racetrack. We enjoyed living there until I went into the service. Kurn: You sell it? Herzberg: Yeah, we sold it. Kurn: Make some money? Herzberg: No. We sold it when I went into the service. My wife didn't want to hold on to it. We came out of the service, I immediately bought another two bedroom house over on Osborn, just north of Osborn and 3rd Street. We've lived in a number of houses in Phoenix. Kurn: Was that area there before you went to war? Herzberg: No. That was a new tract. That was built by Anderson too. The next house we bought was over on 17th Avenue ... off 15th Avenue just north of Indian School. That whole group that are right in there. I believe Womack built those. Kurn: Was it hard to find homes in the '40's? Herzberg: No, there were ... and they were quite reasonable. in the '40's ... I said we paid $3,900 for that house. Kurn: People have jobs in those days? Herzberg: Oh yeah. The depression was just starting to come ... of course I was making the big salary of $1,700 a year. But I worked every summer. Kurn: Doing what? Herzberg: Well, the first summer we were married, not the first year, I mean the first year that I taught I wasn't married. got married the second year I taught. The first year I was married I went up to Clarkdale where my folks were living and ended up living in Cottonwood and I got a job in the smelter. I worked for $5.50 an hour, I mean $5.50 a day. I earned $300 and worked 2 1/2 months that summer. I was glad to have it. I bought a car and all. Kurn: Left your wife in Phoenix? Herzberg: No, no. She stayed with my folks up there. We lived up there and then, the second year I taught we, I got a job with City Parks and worked for City Parks off and on for maybe 14 years before I got through. I worked at Encanto Park. I also when I got out of the service, when we bought this other house finally, then we decided that we would try to improve the situation. My back door neighbor was head man for Coca Cola here in Phoenix. He gave me a job every summer. So I worked for Coca Cola every summer. Then finally went back and worked for the Parks again. See I had a degree not only in social studies, I had a degree in physical education as well. I coached football at one time. It was fun. I worked every summer up until things began to look up. I got a sabbatical. Went to school at Oxford University. This was a great experience of my life. We spent seven months in England and it was great. My daughter was born 7 years after we were married. The day after our anniversary. She grew up in Phoenix, went to school in Phoenix. She went to Central High School too. While I was teaching there. She went through the Osborn schools. When she was about to finish high school one of the counselors decided that she was too sharp to go to a local university which I thought was a mistake at the time. My wife did too. But they convinced her so she decided she ... we took her to California to look at schools and she ended up at Pitzer College in Claremont. Kurn: My daughter went there. Herzberg: Did she. Well, my daughter was in the second class at Pitzer. It was before it was co-educational. Was it coeducational when your daughter went there? Kurn: Yeah. Herzberg: And then she got her master's at Claremont Graduate School. She's been teaching at Arcadia, California ever since. She teaches French. In fact, she's going to France this weekend. Going to Paris for her spring vacation. Rotary International sent her over to France for six weeks last summer in one of their international seminars and groups. She was there and lived with a family on the Riviera. She's head of the foreign language department at Arcadia High School. Kurn: Now what year was she born? Herzberg: She was born in 1947. Kurn: And her name is? Herzberg: Beryl. Kurn: Beryl. What was Phoenix like when she was a little girl and you were raising her? How would you describe Phoenix? Herzberg: Not much different than it is now. Not quite as much traffic. it was pretty well ... we lived ... she went to the Osborn schools all the way through. instead of going to West High where most of her classmates went to she went to Central because we moved into the Central district at the time. We bought a house out here, right behind the Episcopal church almost, off Central Avenue. We lived there all the time she was in high school. I so wanted her to go to high school ... Central High School ... it was a challenge to go to school there at that time. It isn't now. It's pretty bad. So, that's pretty well where we are. One of the interesting things, though, I might digress back to is when I first started teaching ... I got the job at Phoenix Union because I had taken two special courses in college because of a particular professor. And that was driver education. I was the second teacher to teach driver education at Phoenix Union in 1939. A friend of mine had the job and he decided to go to medical school and he called me up and offered the job to me if I would come down and be interviewed. I've never applied for a teaching job, by the way. My first job a friend of mine decided to go to medical school and got me in up there when jobs were really scarce. in '38 you couldn't even buy a teaching job in the State of Arizona. In '39 it was just as bad but Bill Payne, who I went to high school with, told me to come down and had me interviewed and they gave me the job because I was about the only one trained in driver education that they had apply. I also had a minor in health education and so I taught driver ed and health ed in Phoenix Union District. And while doing that, in the district, I became very close with the director of drivers licensing and we arranged it so no kid could get a drivers license in Phoenix unless they came through a high school course. That was started ... I was one of the instigators of that program. So we had a whole program where we hired an actual driving instructor to give them the driving test. We developed a five- week program that they had to take before they could even apply for a driver's license. That went by the board when the war came along. But, these are all the things that have happened here in Phoenix. Kurn: That you should be proud of. Herzberg: I really am. My term at Central was the most enjoyable time of my whole teaching career. Not only because of the caliber of students, I was given a free reign at the time by the principal, Jimmy Carter, who was the first principal at Central and a very good friend. I went to college with him. As department head I set up the entire curriculum, what was to be taught... Kurn: What department was that? Herzberg: Social studies. What was to be taught. At Central High School we offered courses in Sociology, Anthropology, as well as Compulsory Economics which is compulsory in the state now anyway. We geared our entire social studies program for college-bound students. 80% of our kids went to college at the time. I was so happy there with all that program. Also, I have very good friends at Brophy, and Father Helfritch and I sat down and set up their economics program at Brophy. Each year they used to give me a couple of balls in the vis- wine because I would judge their debating at Brophy. I was also very, very close to the Indian School teachers. I went over there and lectured at the Indian School many times on politics with the kids at the Indian School. So, Central being located where it was it gave me a very close contact with these people. We were very close to the nuns over at St. Xavier. I knew them very well and we often would have get togethers of teachers of social studies of the three schools, the two Catholic schools and our schools besides our own district meetings on social studies. It was a wonderful life. I never regretted a minute of it. I'd do it all over again. I'd teach again. Kurn: Did you learn any Indian words from your grandfather? Herzberg: No, not really. Not really. My grandfather was so proud of his English that he used his English every chance he had. But he could speak Spanish fluently and he could speak Pima Indian very well. This was part of his whole set up. That's why they liked him so much, because he went out of his way. He was their friend. That was it. Kurn: Did they ever invite him to their homes? Herzberg: Oh yes. They took him over there a number of times. He would go over and one of the girls that worked for us for many years, Josephine, had trouble with her husband a lot, who also worked for my granddad and he would have to go over and settle their fights half the time. These were all things that were fun. it was fun growing up here. Kurn: I bet. So different. it's changed so much in 75 years. Herzberg: But the interesting thing is that I still feel close to religion. You know I've studied all the others, I feel so very close to it. That's what bothers me where I live now. I can't ... I'm not comfortable in their temple. it's sort of conservative and of course I've always been in a very reformed temple. Especially with Krohn and his days. Ultra reform. Kurn: Who married you? Herzberg: We were married in Chicago. Kurn: Oh that's right, that's right. Now was your daughter confirmed? Herzberg: Oh yes. She was never bas mitzvahed, she was confirmed. She was very active in the high school class. She took an interest in it. She's been away from it. She married a Jewish boy, but it didn't last very long. Kurn: Any grandchildren? Herzberg: Nope. Thank goodness for that part of it. For her. Because she's not tied down at all. Kurn: Sounds like you led a good life in Arizona. Herzberg: I did. Kurn: An interesting life. Herzberg: It was. Wonderful place for people to live. Kurn: Well, it certainly has changed. Herzberg: Yes it has. Kurn: Grown. Herzberg: The area we live in ... it took me a long time to get used to where we live now. It took me three years really. But now I wouldn't live anywhere else. I miss the temple contacts that I had. I miss working with Sylvia, I miss working with Babe, I miss working with Gerry Schubert. We were all very close. I think I was in the second docent class that they had, either second or third. I enjoyed it so much. Kurn: That was a natural for you. Herzberg: I love to teach. I'm very active over there in foreign policy association. Just past president of it. I teach a class in it, I mean I have my Greek letter in foreign policy association. Kurn: Anything else you'd like to tell us? Herzberg: Can't think of anything off hand. Kurn: Well, I think we have a good picture of your life. It was interesting. I thank you for allowing me to come ... Herzberg: Well I thank you so much. Kurn: ... and interview you. We appreciate it and goodbye. [end of interview]