..inte: Benjamin Herzberg ..intr: E. Kofman ..da: 1988 ..cp: 1991.020.002 Adolph, Ben and Minnie Herzberg, ca. 1910 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Benjamin Herzberg January 24, 1986 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: E. Kofman Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Benjamin Herzberg Interview Pages 1 From Latvia-Lithuania Wolf Lukin 1890 Philadelphia 1 Cousin in Tempe with Wolf Sax small cattle ranch 2 "Street sprinkling" Phoenix city streets as a profession 3 Opened store 5th Street & Myrtle in Tempe - general merchandise 3 Trading with Indians Salt River Indian Reservation 3 "Lukin's Store" 4 Began purchasing real estate, 1896-97 (houses) Rose Lukin 4 Rest of Wolf Lukin's family came from Philadelphia 1892 5 only Jewish family in Tempe 5 Rosh Hashonah - Yom Kippur Harry Friedman 6 No anti-Semitism 6- 7 Ben's father lived in Prescott Adolph Herzberg (also from Lithuania) 7 Father's uncle Adolph Blumberg Leo Blumberg Marian Blumberg (Marian Sholder) 8 Parents married 8 Father as salesman at Korrick's Korrick's New York Men's Department Store 8 Father opened store on Washington Street (women's clothing) Harry Friedman 9 "Jewish Welfare Work" in Phoenix for destitute Jewish families 9-10 Importation of matzohs and kosher food for Passover 10 Ben born 1903 10 First house on 3rd Street Korrick's (New York Store) 10 Family moved back to Tempe Wolf Lukin Wolf Sax 11 First grade (Ben) Fillmore School Monroe School 12 Bar Mitzvah preparations with a group of kids - "group Bar Mitzvah" Harold Diamond Bert Diamond Rosenzweig (Harry and Newton) 13 Services over Rosenzweig jewelry store "Rosenzweig Hall" 13-14 Store in Tempe 14 Cotton crisis in Arizona 1920 (15 cents a pound, down from 75 cents) 14 World War I 14-15 Other Tempe families Herb Stein Ruderman family Minnie (Ruderman) Stein Becky Ruderman 15 Ben's "brith" services conducted by: Harry Friedman 16 Loss of father's store due to cotton crisis 17 1921-22 Ben's higher education University of Arizona St. Louis University and Medical School Jewish Hospital in St. Louis 18-19 Other family members - adopted sister: Helen Lukin Herzberg Harry Lukin Eda Herzberg Abe Lukin Lucille Herzberg 19 Ben s brother Ed Herzberg Helen Finkelstein 20 Ben worked for Bullock's in Los Angeles (family moved to Los Angeles) 21 Ben's parents Council of Jewish Women Mrs. Rosa Rosenzweig Frieda Marks (Mrs. Barney Marks) 22 Cottonwood & Jerome, Arizona Max Krause 23 1930's 23 Winslow, Arizona KNH Store Dorothy Herzberg (Mrs. Ben Herzberg) Bessie Starr Dorothy Kroloff 25 Dorothy & Ben married 25 Phoenix medical practice Security Building (anesthesiology) Professional Building 26 Summer jobs 1928-29 Diamonds Store 26 Temple Beth Israel formed Temple Beth Israel Wolf Lukin Rose Lukin 27 Early Prescott relatives Adolph Blumberg (Ben's father's uncle) Wolf Sax 28-29 Building of Temple Beth Israel on Osborn & Flower Street (present building) 29 Ben's medical group purchased other land from temple 29 1935 year Ben & Dorothy married 30 As City Council member in Tempe Wolf Lukin approx. 1912-1916 30 Relatives in Prescott Blumberg family 30 Early travel difficulties 31 More on his grandfather's "street sprinkling" business 31-32 Grandfather's Model T getting stuck in Salt River 32 Ben's father brought his Lewie Herzberg family out to Arizona (some Nat Herzberg of his brothers & sisters) Eda Herzberg Lucille Herzberg 32 Father's parents very religious and moved on to Los Angeles 33 Grandfather's trading with Indians (Pima Indians) 34 Indian problems, Apaches Tombstone, Arizona Pancho Villa Columbus, New Mexico Benjamin Herzberg Interview This is Evanne Kofman with the Phoenix Chapter of the Arizona Jewish Historical Society. Today is January the 24th, 1986 and I'm interviewing Dr. Benjamin Herzberg at his home in Phoenix, Arizona. KOFMAN: Ben, you've been a resident of Phoenix all your life. I know you were born in Arizona. Please tell me - who was the first member of your family to come west? HERZBERG: It was my grandfather, Wolf Lukin. He came originally from the border between Latvia and Lithuania. He was a forester there and had a swiss cheese factory. KOFMAN: In Latvia? HERZBERG: In Latvia. KOFMAN: How did he decide to come west, do you know? HERZBERG: They had a lot of harassment from the Russian police and soldiers and Cossacks and all that. He decided he'd had enough, so then he came to Philadelphia. KOFMAN: Now, this would have been your grandfather on your mother's side? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. KOFMAN: Do you know about what year it was that he came to Philadelphia? HERZBERG: 1890. KOFMAN: 1890. HERZBERG: And he got a job there in a boxcar factory. Then he got a letter from his cousin who was in Tempe, Arizona. His name was Wolf Sax. He had a small cattle ranch south of Tempe, and he thought he could use my grandfather as his foreman. KOFMAN: Okay. Let me interrupt you for a minute if I can. How did Wolf Sax happen to (be in Tempe)? HERZBERG: I have no idea. KOFMAN: Okay. Now, he was a cousin. Was he the son of a sister of Wolf or-? HERZBERG: I have no idea. KOFMAN: But he was in Tempe already in 1890? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. Where was I? KOFMAN: Well, you were saying that he had written to your grandfather -- HERZBERG: And asked him to come to Tempe, which he did. He worked with Sax for some time, probably a year or two. KOFMAN: This was at cattle ranching? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. KOFMAN: Jewish cattle rancher... Was it a large ranch? HERZBERG: No, a small ranch. Jewish cowboy. And then he decided he'd go off on his own, which he did. There wasn't any work to be had in Tempe proper, so he got the idea of sprinkling the streets of Tempe. He got a hundred gallon drum and hooked a sprayer on it, and he could push this thing up and down the streets, watering the streets. KOFMAN: He pushed it or it was horse drawn? HERZBERG: No, he pushed it. KOFMAN: He pushed it! It's kind of a variation on the old pushcart. HERZBERG: Yeah. But then he got enough money to open a little store, which he did at the corner of 5th Street and Myrtle in Tempe. That went along fairly well, and then he enlarged his store. KOFMAN: What kind of a store was it? HERZBERG: He had all merchandise. KOFMAN: Like a trading post? HERZBERG: Almost like a trading post. Then the Indians started to come over from the Salt River Reservation. You know that one on McDowell as you go to Mesa? KOFMAN: Yes. HERZBERG: They used to come over to Tempe because they had no one to trade with across the river. So they'd come over there and trade with him. So then he built a large barn and he bought enough land so the Indians would have room to settle down for a day or two. KOFMAN: Was this barn adjacent to the store? HERZBERG: Yeah. KOFMAN: Let me ask you: What was the name of the store? HERZBERG: Lukin's Store. KOFMAN: Lukin's Store. Very original. HERZBERG: Then the Indians would come over and trade with him, buy what they needed and sell him their grain or whatever else they raised on the reservations. That was the origin of his business. KOFMAN: Now, let me ask you; Basically then he wasn't trading for Indian blankets or jewelry - he was trading for commodities? HERZBERG: Yeah. He would sell them what they needed and buy what they had. KOFMAN: But they were producing - they were already farming by this time? HERZBERG: Yeah, they were farming then. And then his store got rather prosperous, and he had other customers besides the Indians, of course. They were only a moderate part of his trade. Then he started to buy real estate. At one time I believe he had about eight or ten houses. KOFMAN: About what year are we talking about now? HERZBERG: We're talking about 1896 or '7, something like that. KOFMAN: Was he married or was he single? HERZBERG: He brought his -- KOFMAN: He brought his wife with him. Okay. What was her name? HERZBERG: Rose. I've skipped an awful lot. KOFMAN: Well, what have you skipped? We're interested in every little detail you can remember. HERZBERG: He came out to Tempe about '92. Then, about '95 he brought the rest of his family out from Philadelphia. They were all in Philadelphia originally. He brought them out from Philadelphia. KOFMAN: How many children did he have? HERZBERG: Six. Typical family of that day. In fact, it was a small family for that day. Then he bought all this real estate and was really quite prosperous at his time. KOFMAN: This was about 1896 then that he was prosperous? HERZBERG: Or '97, right in there. KOFMAN: Were the children already in schools and kind of integrated into the life? HERZBERG: Yes. As soon as they arrived in Tempe the kids went to school. KOFMAN: Do you know, was there any kind of Jewish life as far as an organized community? HERZBERG: They were the only Jewish family in Tempe. KOFMAN: Did they ever come into Phoenix? HERZBERG: Oh, yes. Then grandpa got interested in the Phoenix setup, and for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur he would come over to Phoenix and conduct the services, assisted by Harry Friedman. They were the two who ran the service. There would be about 15 or 16 men there. It was all the Jews that were in Phoenix at the time probably. As I recall, that's about what was there. That was his only connection with things Jewish. Of course, he ran a Jewish home; we had Pesach services in the house as everybody did and like that. KOFMAN: Was it difficult to feel Jewish since you were the only Jewish family in Tempe? HERZBERG: We didn't feel Jewish. KOFMAN: You didn't. HERZBERG: There was no such thing as having trouble with the goyim or anything else. KOFMAN: Well, of course you weren't born yet at the time you're talking about. HERZBERG: No. I assume ... [unintelligible]. KOFMAN: Did your grandfather ever mention any problems with being Jewish, in terms of anti-Semitism? HERZBERG: Not in Tempe. I never knew there was any such thing until I went to the university. KOFMAN: And he apparently didn't either. HERZBERG: No. We had no problem at all. Well, anyway, as time went on my mother met and married my father, which was in 1902. KOFMAN: How did she meet him and was he from Phoenix or had he -- HERZBERG: No. He was from Prescott. KOFMAN: Oh. He was from Prescott... HERZBERG: That's a whole new topic. KOFMAN: Okay. Well, I'll come back to that then. HERZBERG: Yeah. We'll have to come back to that. KOFMAN: Go ahead. HERZBERG: Can we go back to my father now? KOFMAN: Sure. Go back to anybody you please. Your mother met and married your father and he was from Prescott. What was his name? HERZBERG: Adolph. KOFMAN: Adolph Herzberg. HERZBERG: Now, Dad came from Lithuania, the town of Tolson in Kulan. I happen to remember all of that. At age 14 he supposedly ran away from home. Actually, he left home to keep from getting into the Russian army. He came first to Hamburg, then to New York. Then he had an uncle in Prescott. KOFMAN: Does anyone know his name? HERZBERG: Yeah, Adolph Blumberg. KOFMAN: B-l-u-m -- HERZBERG: b-e-r-g. KOFMAN: Okay. HERZBERG: And he came straight across the country to Prescott as soon as he landed. He didn't know the language or anything. KOFMAN: Let me ask you; Did he come by train then, I assume? HERZBERG: Oh, yes. And he worked in his uncle's store in Prescott and then he'd come down to Phoenix for one reason or another. He met my mother. KOFMAN: Do you know where they met, just out of romantic interest? HERZBERG: No, I don't. KOFMAN: Does anybody know how Adolph Blumberg got to -- HERZBERG: I know nothing about him. By the way, he's related distantly to Marian Sholder's first husband. KOFMAN: Okay. That would be related to Leo Blumberg. HERZBERG: Leo Blumberg. That's our connection to Marian. Then they were married. KOFMAN: About what year was that? HERZBERG: 1902. KOFMAN: 1902. HERZBERG: Dad was 21 and Mom was 18 at the time. Dad was not successful business wise. He opened a store at age 21, just before they were married. KOFMAN: Was this in Phoenix? HERZBERG: In Phoenix. And it was not successful. Then he worked for the Korricks. KOFMAN: What did he do? HERZBERG: Salesman. KOFMAN: He was a salesman? HERZBERG: In the Men's Department. Then he opened another store just by the site of where the Korrick's New York Store was at that time. A couple years later they had a fire. So then he opened another store across the street, which was on Washington Street. That went very well for awhile, but again hard times and failure. KOFMAN: Were these always general merchandise type stores? HERZBERG: No. His stores in Phoenix were mostly women's clothes. KOFMAN: Did he get very active in the Jewish community at all at that time? HERZBERG: Well, there really wasn't a Jewish community. KOFMAN: Well, there was some loose organization, I know, like the Korricks and people -- HERZBERG: Harry Friedman really led the show in Phoenix at the time, and between Harry and Dad they did all the welfare work, Jewish wise, that was done in Phoenix. I can still remember, although just vaguely, Harry coming down in his buggy, picking up Dad and going to take care of some family. It was done by just individual solicitations - "I need so much for this guy and so much for that". And that's the way it was done. KOFMAN: These were Jewish families? HERZBERG: Yeah. only Jewish. KOFMAN: What kind of trouble would they be in? They would have arrived -- HERZBERG: Well, they'd have arrived here broke or hungry or one thing or another, or sick. KOFMAN: What did Mr. Friedman look like? Everyone mentions him but -- you say you vaguely remember -- HERZBERG: You've got pictures of him in the museum. There's a picture of Harry in there. KOFMAN: Do you remember him personality wise? HERZBERG: I thought he was an awfully nice guy. He was very close friends with my whole family. But he and Dad would take care of all that. And Dad did one other thing Jewish wise. There were no matzohs in the stores in Phoenix at the time. Dad imported all the kosher food of that type that was used in Phoenix for Passover. KOFMAN: Even though it was a women's store, if you wanted Pesachdike food you went there to get them? HERZBERG: All they had was matzohs and matzoh meal and -- KOFMAN: Okay. So what year were you born? HERZBERG: 1903. KOFMAN: So your parents had been married about a year. HERZBERG: A little over a year. KOFMAN: Where were they living? Were they living with, say, your mother's family or did they have their own home? HERZBERG: They had their own home in Phoenix. KOFMAN: Where was it? HERZBERG: I believe it was on 3rd Street, about Fillmore, or maybe a little closer into town. I'm not sure. KOFMAN: Okay. So he had this women's store and apparently that didn't do very well. HERZBERG: It did well for awhile. KOFMAN: For what? HERZBERG: The thing that happened, you know Korrick's moved from where they were between 2nd and 3rd down to lst Street -you remember where they were. And that killed that part of town as far as Dad was concerned. And that ruined his business. So then the folks moved back to Tempe. KOFMAN: What was happening meanwhile, just as a little aside, to Wolf Lukin? Was he still cattle ranching? HERZBERG: No. He was still in business; he wasn't cattle ranching at all by that time. KOFMAN: Okay. I'm thinking not of your grandfather then, but of his cousin, Wolf Sax. HERZBERG: I don't know what happened to him. KOFMAN: You don't. HERZBERG: No. I heard when he died, and I don't remember when that was. But he faded from the picture as far as anything I knew. I know he had a son that was a jockey. KOFMAN: That's interesting. But then there are no Sax's left in Tempe or Phoenix that you're -- HERZBERG: No. I'm quite sure. KOFMAN: Okay. So you're now on the scene. Was there something else you wanted to say about your dad's business? HERZBERG: You want my education? KOFMAN: Sure I do. That's why I'm here. HERZBERG: All right. I started school in the first grade at the Fillmore School, which is -- well, I don't remember exactly where it was. Then I went to school where the Security Building is now. Then through the 6th grade at the Monroe School. Then we moved to Tempe and I finished my high school over there. KOFMAN: Did you ever have any sort of religious school?... Nothing? So there was still no -- HERZBERG: The only thing I had, when I was about 13 years old they gathered all the kids approximately my -- within two or three years of my age, and a man came to town. I believe his name was Diamond; I don't recall too well. He taught us a few Brochas, and then we had a little get-together one night and were each given our diplomas. KOFMAN: Where was this little get-together? HERZBERG: I don't remember. KOFMAN: So this was like a group Bar Mitzvah, so it was only boys then. HERZBERG: Yeah. KOFMAN: Do you remember some of the other boys that were in that group? HERZBERG: The Diamond boys were there. KOFMAN: Harold and -- HERZBERG: Bert. And I believe the Rosenzweigs were there and about five or six others. KOFMAN: Were you friendly with them? HERZBERG: Oh, yes. KOFMAN: Were they all in the same school with you? HERZBERG: Not so much in school, but we were sort of playmates together. I don't remember them in school, but we were together a great deal. And our parents were very friendly. KOFMAN: Did the Jewish families kind of get together to celebrate the holidays or did they mostly just celebrate them in their own homes? HERZBERG: Except for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, of course, which were downtown and that's what my grandfather used to take care of. The men would get together in the Rosenzweig Hall downtown. KOFMAN: Where was that? HERZBERG: Oh, the top of the Rosenzweig jewelry store. There was a hall up there. That's where they had the services in Phoenix, up until the time that Rabbi Liknaitz came to town. He was the first rabbi in town, of course. KOFMAN: Do you know about what year that would have been? Well, I'm just curious because, you know, I wasn't here then, and 1905, 1910 -- HERZBERG: No. KOFMAN: Later? HERZBERG: A little after that. I would say around '14 or '15. That's a wild guess. KOFMAN: Did you ever have any kind of desire to, or did your family ever express any kind of desire that they wished there was more of a Jewish community? Do you think they ever felt isolated from mainstream Judaism in any way? HERZBERG: I don't think so. They were just so happy to be away from Europe that they accepted what they had. KOFMAN: You mentioned that you had gone to grade school and then you went back to Tempe to high school. Was that when your family moved back to Tempe? HERZBERG: They moved back to Tempe. KOFMAN: And did he open another store there? HERZBERG: Yes. Which again was enormously successful. And in 1921 we had in the Valley a sort of a cotton crisis. In 1920 cotton brought between 75 cents and a dollar a pound. In 1921 it brought 15 cents a pound. KOFMAN: Was this tied in, say, with the war or -- HERZBERG: This is before the war. KOFMAN: Well, this would have been World War I. HERZBERG: Just after World War I. KOFMAN: Which probably accounted for the drop in prices. HERZBERG: Dad had a big store in Tempe and had given credit to all the farmers who traded at his store. KOFMAN: I'm just kind of curious. Since the war did occur at that time, do you remember if many of the local Jewish men went away to that war at all? HERZBERG: You see, I was in Tempe. KOFMAN: You were in Tempe, okay, all that time. So you didn't keep in touch then with some of these boys that you had grown up with? HERZBERG: No. I just knew them and that was that. KOFMAN: By the time you moved back to Tempe were there other Jewish families in Tempe at that time? You were still the only one? HERZBERG: Do you remember Herb Stein and his wife? His wife's family were over there - Ruderman was their name. R-u-d-e-r-m-a-n. And her mother was a widow, and they had the two girls, Minnie and Becky. KOFMAN: Minnie and Becky Ruderman? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. Minnie became Minnie Stein. KOFMAN: And they were in Tempe also? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. But they were the only other Jewish family in town. KOFMAN: They were girls that were your age? HERZBERG: Becky was my age; Minnie was a little older. KOFMAN: So by the time you were in high school did you ever find yourself dating her or having a -- HERZBERG: No. KOFMAN: No. Not at all. Did your parents start impressing upon you that they wanted you to find someone Jewish to marry? HERZBERG: Oh, yes. They made me realize that I was Jewish all the time, in spite of the fact that we didn't have any Jewish friends in Tempe. KOFMAN: Well, you know, just thinking about that - let me ask you a sort of a personal question, and you could very well not know the answer to this, but, let's see, you were born in 1903. Do you know who, for example, would have performed a brith for babies like you born in Phoenix? HERZBERG: Well, I know who worked on me. KOFMAN: Okay. Who worked on you? Did they bring somebody in from, say, Los Angeles? HERZBERG: No. Harry Friedman. KOFMAN: Harry Friedman was a man of all trades... HERZBERG: He conducted the service for me. I happen to know that. KOFMAN: But you think they brought a moltel or someone else -- HERZBERG: Oh, no. KOFMAN: No mohtel. HERZBERG: There was no such thing as that around here. KOFMAN: So it would have been just a doctor? HERZBERG: A doctor would do it. In fact, I've done a lot of them on Jewish kids too, you know. KOFMAN: Well, I know it became more common later, but sometimes in the early years people were determined - HERZBERG: Well, the closest would be Los Angeles or El Paso, so it would have been rather hard to get anyone here, unless you were really a wealthy family. KOFMAN: Okay. Well, that just occurred to me, you know there were babies being born and there would have been a pidyan hahben and all of those things would have happened. HERZBERG: I didn't know what a pidyan hahben was until recently. I'd never heard of it. I'm a very poor Jew when it comes to knowing things. Frankly, I didn't have the opportunity. KOFMAN: Okay. So, you're back in Tempe then and there's only a couple of other Jewish families, and you were in high school. Now, this store that your father had in Tempe. How did it do? Was it successful? HERZBERG: Well, that ran into the cotton crisis. KOFMAN: So he lost his store. HERZBERG: See, I graduated from high school in '21, just when that was going on. KOFMAN: So how were you able to afford to go away to medical school? HERZBERG: I sometimes question that. Of course, medical school was still four years away, and the family got on their feet a bit and I worked a bit and that's how -- KOFMAN: Now, where did you go to college? HERZBERG: I went to the University of Arizona one year. KOFMAN: That was in Tucson? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. That was in 1921 and '22. Then I had to stay out of school in '22 and '23. Then I went back to school in Los Angeles in '23, through '25. Then St. Louis University Medical School till graduation; then Jewish Hospital for internship in St. Louis. KOFMAN: Did you ever consider not coming back to Phoenix? HERZBERG: No. After what I saw of the Midwest, Phoenix looked awfully good to me. KOFMAN: I'm glad you came back. HERZBERG: So am I. KOFMAN: Let me ask you a couple of things: Do you ever remember - you said that the Jewish community, such as it was, did get together for the Rosh Hashanah and the High Holidays. Do you remember any specific services or specific weddings or anything like that? HERZBERG: No. Because it was all conducted in Hebrew. Frankly, I was bored to death -- they made us go, but we'd run out every chance we had. KOFMAN: I think the children are still doing that. HERZBERG: Kids are kids and always will be. But that's as far as it went. I had no training whatsoever, as I told you. KOFMAN: How did you decide to go into medicine? HERZBERG: I just made up my mind when I was ten years old and stuck with it, that's all. KOFMAN: And you have a brother and a sister? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. KOFMAN: And they're younger than you? HERZBERG: Well, not exactly my sister. We had three marriages in our family between two families. Two brothers and a sister, and two sisters and a brother. Helen's mother died shortly after she was born. KOFMAN: What was Helen's last name? HERZBERG: It was Lukin at that time. KOFMAN: And she was a cousin to you? HERZBERG: A double cousin. KOFMAN: A double cousin. HERZBERG: You see, both sides. KOFMAN: Okay. Now, let me see if I can get this straight for the record. Let's say there was Wolf Lukin and that was your father. HERZBERG: My grandfather. KOFMAN: Grandfather. okay, now tell me who were these people that were marrying each other? HERZBERG: Well, Harry married -- KOFMAN: Harry who? HERZBERG: Harry Lukin married Eda Herzberg. KOFMAN: Harry Lukin. Now, was he Wolf's brother? HERZBERG: No. Wolf's son. KOFMAN: Wolf's son. okay. So he was a brother to your father? HERZBERG: No. A brother to my mother. KOFMAN: To your mother? HERZBERG: Lukin. KOFMAN: Sorry. Right. okay. Now I'm with you. HERZBERG: Abe Lukin and Lucille Herzberg. KOFMAN: And that was another son. HERZBERG: And then there was my family. KOFMAN: Okay. HERZBERG: Just the three. And when Helen's mother died - she died shortly after Helen was born - my folks adopted her. So for all purposes she's been our sister. KOFMAN: What is your brother's name? HERZBERG: Ed. KOFMAN: That's right. I know that. And Helen is -- her name now -- HERZBERG: Finkelstein. F-i-n-k-e-l--s-t-e-i-n. KOFMAN: How about Ed then? When you were away at medical school what was he doing? HERZBERG: Well, Ed's ten years younger than I am. He went through college in Tempe, got a degree and his master's degree, and has been teaching until very recently, when he retired. KOFMAN: And Helen? HERZBERG: She's just a housewife. KOFMAN: She's a housewife. Your dad's store didn't work out again. What did he do after that? HERZBERG: Well, immediately after that he lost his health. He had rheumatic fever and was pretty sick for quite awhile. That's the year I was out of school. KOFMAN: Did you have to work to help support the -- HERZBERG: No, I stayed out and supported the family for a year. KOFMAN: What did you do to support them? HERZBERG: Worked for Bullock's. KOFMAN: You worked for Bullock's? HERZBERG: In Los Angeles. KOFMAN: And sent your money home? HERZBERG: I didn't send it. They were all in Los Angeles. KOFMAN: Oh. They all went to Los Angeles with you... HERZBERG: And we lived there. And then Dad got on his feet and started to travel, as a traveling salesman. And I went back to school. KOFMAN: Did he work for a large company? HERZBERG: Yeah. I don't remember who it was, but he sold lady's dresses on the road. KOFMAN: What kind of man was your father? I mean, he'd been through a series of failures and disasters, not always his fault, did it change his personality or -- HERZBERG: He was always a great guy. KOFMAN: How about your mother? What was she like? HERZBERG: Just as great. KOFMAN: Well, elaborate on "great" for me a little bit. You know, characterize them for me if you can. HERZBERG: She was just calm and collected. By the way, at one time she was president of the Council of Jewish Women here in town. KOFMAN: Who were some of her closest lady friends; were they mostly Jewish? HERZBERG: Well, Mrs. Rosenzweig was one of her closest, and Mrs. Marks, Frieda Marks; they're people you don't even know anymore. You've heard of them. KOFMAN: Yes. Especially through this. HERZBERG: A whole group like that. I can't name them. You would know who they are as well as I do. Mom was a great gal. Never got excited; just sweet and nice all the time. And took the hard knocks as well as the good things. KOFMAN: She never became embittered then by any of the things that happened. Was her health always good? HERZBERG: Her health was good. Dad's deteriorated badly. KOFMAN: From the rheumatic fever? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. From then on he was a sick man. But he lived another 20 years. KOFMAN: And he just stayed traveling as a salesman then for the next 20 years? HERZBERG: Well, later on he went into business with my uncle, first in Cottonwood. KOFMAN: Now, which uncle was this? HERZBERG: This is my youngest aunt's husband-- on my grandfather's side, on my mother's side-- Max Krause. KOFMAN: Max Krause? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. KOFMAN: K-r-a-u -- HERZBERG: u-s-e. KOFMAN: And they were in Cottonwood. HERZBERG: Cottonwood and then Jerome. KOFMAN: Now, how did they get to Cottonwood and Jerome? HERZBERG: They just opened a store there. KOFMAN: Now, where had they come from - Tempe, or from Prescott? HERZBERG: Let's see. Dad had been traveling and I think Max had been traveling too. They got together and first Dad ran the store in Cottonwood and Max ran it in Jerome. KOFMAN: This was in the '20s then? HERZBERG: Oh, this is later than that. This was when the Jerome mine closed. KOFMAN: That's when they opened their store? HERZBERG: Well, shortly before that. Dad ran into that all his life. one thing or another. He was a marvelous salesman and a good businessman, but just ran into problems. Then they finally opened in Winslow. KOFMAN: What was the name of the store? HERZBERG: KNH. KOFMAN: KNH. So this would have been in the '20s then. HERZBERG: No, this was later. KOFMAN: In the '30s? HERZBERG: This was after I was married until Dad's health cracked entirely, and he lived probably another five years. KOFMAN: How about your mother? HERZBERG: She just died about 15 years ago. She got up into the 80's. KOFMAN: And she always stayed here? HERZBERG: After she left Winslow they moved to California for awhile and then came back here until Dad died, and then she continued on here. KOFMAN: Okay. Well, I think it's time for me to ask how you met your wife, Dorothy, and where you met her. HERZBERG: By the way, my mother was also quite friendly with your grandmother. KOFMAN: Bessie Starr. But that would have been already in the '40s. HERZBERG: Yeah. That was getting late. Phoenix was sort of off the beaten path medically, and my early years in practice -- KOFMAN: Oh, you had already graduated, so you didn't meet her in school? HERZBERG: No. I couldn't afford to get married when I was in school. KOFMAN: But you could afford to meet girls? HERZBERG: Not even too much of that. So there were big developments in anesthesia at that time in the early '30s. So in order to keep up I used to go over to Los Angeles every two, three months and spend time in various hospitals. I always lined up a date before I went to Los Angeles. Well, one time my date failed me, and Dorothy Kroloff -- I'm getting down to people you know now -- and Dorothy had been friends in Omaha when they were kids. She set me up on a blind date. KOFMAN: Was Dorothy Kroloff living in Los Angeles? HERZBERG: No. KOFMAN: She was living here. HERZBERG: She was visiting over there. KOFMAN: Whom did you rely on in Los Angeles to fix you up with dates? HERZBERG: Oh, I had some cousins and stuff over there. I had no problem, except this one time. KOFMAN: And always Jewish girls? HERZBERG: Usually, yes. KOFMAN: Good for you. So you met Dorothy on a blind date... Where did you go? What did you do? How late did you stay out? HERZBERG: None of your damn business. Then my trips to Los Angeles got rather frequent and the mails got rather frequent too. About six or eight months later we were married. KOFMAN: Where were you practicing in Phoenix? HERZBERG: Originally in the Security Building. KOFMAN: That's downtown. HERZBERG: Uh-huh. Then I went into the Professional Building, and then to 1313 North 2nd Street. KOFMAN: How did you pick anesthesiology? HERZBERG: In a peculiar way. During my internship one of my first services was in anesthesia. And I must have done very well with it, so the Chief of Medicine at the hospital, every time they were shorthanded would yell for me to come down and help them out. I got a lot of training in it, and that's how. You see, at that time the only residency in anesthesia in the United States was in Madison, Wisconsin, so there was no way of getting any formal training, so that's how I got a lot of it there in my internship, and I just started out here. KOFMAN: Did you have a part-time job while you were in medical school? HERZBERG: No. In medical school you can't do that. I was a little lean on money once in awhile, but not too often. And I made it. However, that Bullock's connection was a big thing for me, because every summer when I would come home I would just go down to the store and say, "Where do I work now?" and they always had a job for me. KOFMAN: This was in Los Angeles? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. Then when the family moved back here, and I was still in school, when I'd come home I could go in to the Diamond's, and I always had a job there. KOFMAN: In the Men's Department? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. KOFMAN: Now, of course by this time there would have been Temple Beth Israel and -- HERZBERG: That's about the time, yeah. I'm talking about 1928 and '29 now. KOFMAN: Was your family at all involved in forming the temple? HERZBERG: No, the family were living in Tempe when the temple was formed. They were very interested, but they really didn't have a part. They weren't among the founding fathers like the Lewkowitz's and Korrick's and those. I might give one more thing. My grandfather was extremely successful business wise -- KOFMAN: This is Wolf Lukin? HERZBERG: Yeah. -- until his wife died. This was about 1915. From then on-- KOFMAN: Her name was...? HERZBERG: Rose. From then on is when he started deteriorating. He lost interest. KOFMAN: What happened to the land from the uncle's ranch? Did it just stay with that family and vanish or -- HERZBERG: Well, none of his uncles were here. KOFMAN: I thought you said that -- oh, cousins. Pardon me. HERZBERG: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what happened. KOFMAN: I'm so interested in real estate -- sometime you mentioned that some of your relatives had dabbled in it or whatever. And that ranch just sort of disappeared. HERZBERG: Grandpa was very successful with his houses, too, that he bought and built. He owned a whole string of them. I don't know where all of them are now really. KOFMAN: Let me just ask you a tiny bit, just to get it in the record, about the uncle Adolph Blumberg in Prescott. We talked a little bit about it a little while ago, but the tape wasn't on. Exactly how were they related to you? HERZBERG: Well, the uncle that was in Prescott was my father's uncle; a brother of my grandmother. But how he came to this country -- I know he went from Prescott and opened a store in San Diego. That's all I know about him. KOFMAN: Seems like all the early Jewish families had stores. HERZBERG: They were all merchants. KOFMAN: That seems to be the unique thread that runs through they all came as merchants. That's why I was so interested in wolf Sax, who you mentioned, because he was a real Jewish cowboy. HERZBERG: I don't know what happened to his family. KOFMAN: Did you ever meet him? HERZBERG: Oh, yes. I've been around here an awful long time. I met Sax' kids; there was the jockey and two daughters, as I recall. KOFMAN: A Jewish jockey. It's interesting. Why not? It's perfectly possible, but -- HERZBERG: He was a little guy. KOFMAN: I would guess he would have been. So you never went to religious school then at all. HERZBERG: No. KOFMAN: Okay. But once you and Dorothy were married and you came to Phoenix to live did you join the temple right away? HERZBERG: Oh, yes, right away. And I've belonged to it ever since. KOFMAN: Were you on the board of directors at all? HERZBERG: For awhile. Not long; probably one or two terms. I forget now. KOFMAN: Now, when you joined the temple then it would have been the one on Culver? HERZBERG: Oh, yes. I had a lot to do with the building of this new temple in that, you know, the temple had bought the place where 1313 North 2nd Street is. It was going to build there, but then they decided to sell it and a group of doctors, of which I was one, decided we were going to build a building and get out of the Professional Building. So we bought that from the temple, that piece, and gave the temple the money to build their present temple with. KOFMAN: That's the one on Osborn. HERZBERG: On Osborn, yes. I had nothing to do with it, I mean, just got them some of their money. KOFMAN: Were you in partnership with Jewish doctors? HERZBERG: No. I had one other Jewish doctor with me, but at one time I had ten men with me in my office. KOFMAN: So you joined the temple here in Phoenix about what year would that have been? HERZBERG: 1935. The year I was married. KOFMAN: And how long before your children were born? HERZBERG: Well, Mike came along two years later and Phyllis a couple years after that. They went through the school and were bar mitzvahed and bat mitzvahed. They got the words that I didn't. KOFMAN: Do you ever miss the old Phoenix. the way it used to be? HERZBERG: Horribly. KOFMAN: What do you miss most? HERZBERG: Lack of traffic. And knowing everybody. You see, when I went into practice Phoenix was only about 30 or 35,000. It was a different town than it is now. KOFMAN: Now it's not a town; it's a metropolis. HERZBERG: A mega-metropolis, really. So you got most of my story. KOFMAN: I think I do. Okay. I had the tape off for a minute or two and you remembered something about your grandfather -- HERZBERG: Well, he was on the City Council for six years. KOFMAN: In Tempe. HERZBERG: In Tempe. KOFMAN: And this is Grandfather Lukin. HERZBERG: Lukin. KOFMAN: What years would that have been about? HERZBERG: About '12 to '16, somewhere in there. He was quite a popular old guy there.KOFMAN: You're smiling when you tell me about him. Was he jolly - that type of person, or -- HERZBERG: Until the end, yeah. Well, until his wife died. After that he was very quiet and subdued; a different person entirely. KOFMAN: Did you keep in touch at all with the Blumbergs from Prescott or some of the other names that you mentioned? HERZBERG: Not at all. You know, travel in those days was not easy. To get to Prescott was a big deal. KOFMAN: Why? How was it a big deal? HERZBERG: Well, if you went by car, for example, you followed the Black Canyon Road as it is now, the highway, except there was no pavement. You had pavement for 20 miles and then bounced the rest of theway. I remember one time we went to Prescott and had six blow-outs on the way. The road was just that bad. You didn't travel much. You'd go from Phoenix to Tempe and that road wasn't paved either. You bounced through all that. Living was entirely different. KOFMAN: I'm suddenly reminded of one of the first things you told me which somehow stuck in my mind, it's so unusual. This business about the sprinkler where he was hand pushing the sprinkling business. How long did he stay with that? HERZBERG: About a year. KOFMAN: Now, was he paid by the City? HERZBERG: By the people who owned the property, I think. That's what my brother says in his little deal here. I remember seeing that funny looking tin thing in his yard there, and I asked him what it was one day and he finally told me. I'd never seen such a contraption. KOFMAN: Seems like you never see any sprinklers anymore. HERZBERG: Oh, no. It's all paved. KOFMAN: That's right. But in the '50s, when I was growing up, we used to see the big -- they're not cars, I don't know what they are, but they were big machines going through and spraying the streets and they were paved. You just don't see them anymore, except maybe after construction. That's a very interesting thing. People have mentioned stores, and a couple of people have mentioned little ranches or - HERZBERG: Well, one thing I can say about my grandfather; he could fix anything. He got his first Ford in 1910 and I can remember him crossing the river. The river had about two feet of water in those days; they didn't have all the dams. He'd get stuck in the middle of that damn river and get out and fool around, get it going and got out. If anything got broken he'd always fix it. Of course, it didn't look as good as it should, but he got it put together. KOFMAN: Okay. Now, whenever you're talking about your grandfather you're talking about Wolf Lukin. HERZBERG: Right. KOFMAN: Did any of your father's family come -- his parents -- or anybody ever come to this country? HERZBERG: Oh, they all came, in 1906. KOFMAN: And they are the ones that went to Prescott. HERZBERG: No. They went to Los Angeles. KOFMAN: Okay. I had thought that you said your father had come from Prescott. HERZBERG: My father came to Prescott originally. Then he came down to Phoenix KOFMAN: Then he came to Phoenix. But his family came to Los Angeles, his parents? HERZBERG: Yeah, came to Los Angeles by way of Phoenix. The way Dad brought his family out - first he brought, let's see, Lewie, Nat, Eda and Lucille, he brought four. KOFMAN: These were his brothers and sisters? HERZBERG: Uh-huh. They worked for a year or two and then they brought the rest of them; father and mother and -- well, there were 11 kids altogether. KOFMAN: This was in Phoenix or Prescott? HERZBERG: No. They came to Phoenix to Los Angeles. KOFMAN: Okay. Do you know why they decided not to stay in Phoenix? HERZBERG: I don't know. Oh, well, my grandfather and grandmother on my father's side were very religious. They wanted to be around Jews, so Los Angeles was the only place they could go; they couldn't be in Phoenix even. They wanted kosher food and that was not to be had here. So some of my family was religious. But my only contact with them really is when we used to go over there for the summer, or something like that. KOFMAN: You mentioned that your grandfather had this store and that the Indians would come and trade there, and they were trading produce mainly. As a little boy, say visiting, do you remember very much about the Indians? HERZBERG: I remember seeing them and watching them come into the store and out, and we kids used to play in the big barn he had where he kept his hay and that kind of stuff. KOFMAN: You never felt threatened or worried about them? HERZBERG: Oh, no. They were nice people. They gave him a living, I should like them. KOFMAN: Well, you know, by 1908 or 1910 there were problems sometimes on the border with Mexico. HERZBERG: Don't forget. The Indians we had here were Pimas. Now, the Pimas were not at all warlike. In fact, they were extremely friendly. The Apaches farther east were the bad ones, or farther south around Douglas and Bisbee, that's where they had real trouble, or Tombstone. KOFMAN: I remember too that people used to talk about -- what was the name of the Mexican bandit that was always raiding into Tucson? HERZBERG: Villa; Pancho Villa. KOFMAN: Pancho Villa. Do you remember the stories about him? HERZBERG: Oh, sure. I was 15, 16 years old, of course I would know. They hit Columbus, New Mexico; it was their big raid into this country. KOFMAN: But no one here ever worried about them coming up this far? HERZBERG: No. Never gave it a thought. KOFMAN: Well, I want to thank you for letting me come out and talk to you today. It's been interesting. HERZBERG: Sorry I couldn't remember any more. KOFMAN: Well, you've done very well and I'll tell you, I can always come back. HERZBERG: I'll let you in. KOFMAN: You'll let me in. Well, thank you, Ben, very much for letting me come in today. [end of transcript]