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Aubrey Grouskay

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Dorothy Pickelner

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1986

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1990.001.034 
Aubrey Grouskay looks out over feed lot, Phoenix, ca. 1960. Rockin’ A brand visible.

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..ftxt:





An Interview

with

Aubrey Grouskay

February 21, 1986

Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan

Interviewer: Dorothy Pickelner

 Arizona Jewish Historical Society

Log For

                         Aubrey Grouskay Interview

(Log with pages 1-6 missing)

Pages

7 First congregation in houses on Washington above Rosenzweig store

7 Needed Aubrey for a minyan though he was underage

8 Burning temple mortgage

8 His bar mitzvah - mom could attend, was well enough - Mrs. Goodman baked
his bar mitzvah cake

8 Chinese soldiers at the temple on Culver Street were Jews

9 Leaders - Rosenzweig; Mr. Barnett Marks

9 World War II - service

9 He meets Marjorie at Phoenix Union High School; marriage

10 Cattle business - father, Eli - 7 or 8 generations

10-11 Early cemetery; French Jew - Wormser; Heard - 1896 or 1906

10-11 Work on developing cemetery; Diamond, Sam Kiviat; Aaron Citron

12 Father and son both president of temple

13 3 Jewish families in Prescott; now 38 - 50 now in Flagstaff

13 Jews in the Territory (?)

13-14 Being a cattleman

14 Mexican relations; good relations; hard workers; want to please

15 Few blacks

15-16 Social - early kid gangs - mazik

16 Riding burros - painting burros' hoofs orange with paint - mom made him
take it off

17 Social activities through temple Jewish weddings an event

Picnics - Joyland Park on edge of town Riverside Park - movies

17-18 Indians - colorful - at stations

18 On Thomas Road - 4:00 p.m. - children called in from "Indian Country"

19 Frontier life in Prescott; sold magazines and candy to Whipple

19 Blue Lodge #2; Masons; Shrine

20 Barney Marks witness for Aubrey

20 Camelback Inn; anti-Semitism

	
	Aubrey Grouskay Interview

I am about to record an interview with Mr. Aubrey Grouskay, a well-known
cattleman of Phoenix, Arizona. We are doing this at my home and the date is
February 21, 1986.

PICKELNER: Mr. Grouskay.

GROUSKAY: Good morning, Dorothy, and thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
You've asked me to share with you the arrival of the Grouskays into
Arizona. Thinking back I believe we came here in 1917 - my mother, one of
my sisters and myself. We stopped in Los Angeles from Fredrickton, New
Brunswick, Canada where I was born, and only stayed there a few days and
then came on to Phoenix. We found that we liked Phoenix and from that point
on we have still been here with all of these years that have passed by.
Finding Phoenix, as far as the Jewish community was concerned, it
represented just a handful of people of Jewish faith. Three principal
families, three or four were very strongly recognized and were very much
involved In the total community - the Korricks, the Rosenzweigs and the
Diamonds, and the Barnett Marks family as well.

PICKELNER: Mr. Grouskay, why did you people leave Canada and come to the
United States, and what were the circumstances that you found here?

GROUSKAY: Dorothy, we left Canada because my mother was ill;
my mother had asthma. We were health seekers, and we were told that the
climate here would probably be better for Mother. We found the community
inviting; we found the community welcoming us. There were some probably 10, 12, 
surely not more than 14 families here at the time. We felt like we were very 
much pioneers. People coming to Arizona, the stories that made the rounds at 
that time, they came and stayed here only because they ran out of money and 
couldn't go on, or that perhaps they were a little bit meshuga (crazy) in 
staying here. We felt, very frankly, that we stayed because Mother was a health 
seeker.

PICKELNER: Did your family always speak English or did they also
speak some other language in the home?

GROUSKAY: My mother and father spoke to my three sisters and myself in English 
most of the time, but quite liberally Yiddish, especially when they felt, as 
usual in most families, that they could say things that we wouldn't
understand. But we learned much of what they were saying and can understand
some Yiddish even to this day.

We found Arizona beautiful. Mother went through a number of experiences for
health purposes, being in north of Phoenix, for example, in a place called
Tent City. This was quite an experience. Mother then also went to Las
Vegas, New Mexico for a time, came back and went to Prescott where I went
to the fifth grade, I believe, in Prescott. Some memorable experiences
there. One of my most pleasant experiences was that I would go to Thumb
Butte with a rope over my shoulder and rope some of those burros, and we'd
ride them around, have a good time.

One of the other experiences that was frightening was I watched the Klu
Klux Klan burning their crosses and their hoods not too far from my home.
These are extreme differences. I would also mention that one of the nicest
experiences that I had was shining shoes on the Courthouse grounds where
Bucky O'Neal is on his horse as one of the Rough Riders. I would charge a
nickel for shining; the women would give me a nickel. Once in a while if I
shined a man's shoes he would give me a dime. I wondered if they realized
what a bargain they were getting from a Jewish boy.

Also, I went to grammar school in Tucson as well. Again, we were on a
health seeking mission and I delivered papers there as I delivered papers
in Phoenix bicycle-style. These were the growing-up years, going to some of
the local schools, grammar school - Garfield, Emerson, Court, and also
Phoenix Union High School, and then the University of Arizona.

PICKELNER: Aubrey, where did you live when you came to Phoenix;
did you find a house? You mentioned the Tent City, but what neighborhood
did you live in?

GROUSKAY: First arriving in Phoenix we stayed for a couple of
months at the Adams Hotel, and then we found a house that we rented in East
Phoenix which was in the Garfield School District. Then some time later we
moved to 3rd Street and then I went to Emerson School. Then when we moved
to 3rd or 4th Avenue in the Culver area I went to Court School. We found that
in those days the Jewish community seemed to be very much involved in the
total community, and as I mentioned before, there were only just a few
families but they were very much involved because the names that I
mentioned earlier were quite prominent in the clothing business in downtown
Phoenix. As time went on, of course, things changed and there was more
movement of a different involvement.

Many people wondered why and how we were in the cattle business. A little
background in relation to our family is that my mother and father both came
from Europe and Poland, which was Poland at one time and then of course as
the maps changed my father related to us that he and Mother had lived under
the Polish rulers and lived under the Tzar and lived under the Kaiser when
military troops moved into different areas. Some people asking my father
how he felt about the rulers in Poland he said that a dictator's a dictator
regardless of what hat they're wearing or what flag they're flying.

Phoenix seemed to be rather comfortable in the early days for those of
Jewish faith. As time moved on then some anti-Semitic feelings began to
arise. It never surfaced real seriously in a strong uncomfortable manner
until actually just in front of World War II. Then it began to register in
some areas as being quite anti-Semitic.

PICKELNER: Very interesting. Aubrey, who were some of your neighbors? Do
you remember who they were and can you also tell us about some of the names
and some of the occupations? What did they do for a living In this far
flung spot?

GROUSKAY: Actually, in relation to who the neighbors were there
were so few people here of Jewish faith that they really weren't our
neighbors; they were non-Jews for the most part. What did the people of
Jewish persuasion do in this community? As I mentioned before they were in
the clothing business or they were in the grocery business. With grocery
stores I remember Mr. ...

PICKELNER: You mentioned Tent City. What was the purpose of that and where
was it?

GROUSKAY: Sunnyslope. Tent City was at Sunnyslope, which is
north of the city and it's called Sunnyslope now. It was called Sunnyslope
then as well. The purpose of it was that it was felt the air was dry, the
air was clean and it was better for people who had asthma or tuberculosis.
My mother had asthma and what it really consisted of was a wooden floor and
wooden from say the floor to waist high, and then actually a canvas tent
across the top. The people were living there and those who were ill would
stay there night and day. It was supposed to be helpful. Later on people
went actually to Prescott because it was a mile high and it was considered
better and it was not a tent city. But it did serve a certain purpose making a 
change from living in more or less the enclosed community of the little city of 
Phoenix at the time, and yet a sort of a gateway on moving on to Prescott for 
health seekers.

Going back to what did some of the people do of Jewish faith in the early
days, there were several in the grocery business. I recall the Edelman
family who are still living here in Phoenix. I recall Brenda Meckler, whose
family had a clothing store. And then the Mecklers of course who were in
jewelry, and the Rosenzweigs in jewelry. I also recall a gentleman by the
name of Harry Friedman who, while he sold life insurance, he also would fit
you for glasses whenever the occasion arose, and if it didn't arise he'd
bring the occasion around.

Rather of interest to my recollection in the early days, there was only one
Jewish doctor in the state. That doctor was Dr. Sitkin, a dentist. I don't
remember any other doctor of Jewish faith practicing anywhere in the state.
There might have been -- I also hurriedly want to go back and include the
Goodmans who also in the early days were here in the clothing business, of
which there are representatives of the Goodman family still with us.

PICKELNER: Very Interesting. What did you people do for your social life?
was there mingling and social life among the Jewish families and the
non-Jewish families?

GROUSKAY: There was some mingling of Jewish families and
non-Jewish families, but by and large for the Jewish families it was
actually a visitation to attend services and whatever took place around the
temple. This basically was where the small Jewish community lived at that
particular time.

The religious life and the religious education really and truly came
somewhat from the home, but basically from the temple. The first
congregation that I can remember was in somebody's home, and it seemed to
me at times it was on East Washington Street just a stone's throw east of
Central Avenue. We went upstairs above Mr. Rosenzweig's jewelry store. I'm
referring to Harry's and Newton's and Ann's (their sister) father's jewelry
store.

As we went upstairs for the holidays, my father would say to me, "You're
not to talk to anybody" -- I was a little boy-- "Just don't talk to
anybody." For a long time I didn't realize why I wasn't supposed to talk to
anybody. When I finally found out the reason I wasn't supposed to talk to
anybody was that I had not arrived at bar mitzvah yet, and we might not
have ten people for a minyan if I revealed how young I was in those days.
Rather an interesting light on what really it took to try to put something
together in having a minyan.

The first Jewish organization or club does not really come to my mind at
this particular time. The earliest Jewish leaders included the rabbis and a
few lay people who taught religion. I myself eventually taught Sunday School at 
the temple on Culver Street. I remember very much an exciting experience when 
the mortgage was paid and the street was blocked off and the governor attended, 
and I believe it was a Mr. Primrock Sr. who, at that time, was president of the 
temple. It was an exciting time.

Another exciting time for me in the temple was when I was bar mitzvahed
there. I'm quite sure there's a lot of people that couldn't believe I've
ever been bar mitzvahed, but I was. I can remember, in view of my mother's
illness, she was well enough to attend the bar mitzvah, which was an
exciting affair. I also remember that Helen and Sophie and Toby Citron,
their mother was so gracious and so lovely that she baked my bar mitzvah
cake and some additional goodies, which was nice. It's one of the nice,
sweet things that you remember all your life that took place in a small
community that was gathering together and growing.

One of the interesting things about the temple was at a high holiday
service the doors opened in the entrance and I looked back and saw, to my
amazement, some 12 or 14 nice Chinese young men dressed In military
uniform. They came in and sat in the back of the room, and I found a little
later that they were apparently of Jewish persuasion from China. They were
here taking some kind of military training which actually pointed out that
the community was actually growing. They would not have been here if the
community really and truly had not started to grow. I believe this was in
the early '40's by this time.

PICKELNER: Did they have something to do with the war?

GROUSKAY: They were really and truly being trained to go back to China and
fit in to the China military as I think I can remember from thereon.

The Jewish community here had taken its place with the usual leadership of
those who were really involved, as I had mentioned, the Diamonds, the
Korricks, the Rosenzweigs, the legal people - Mr. Barnett Marks, who only
passed away just a few years ago. of course, he had two sons who were
lawyers and one is, of course, involved In the pioneer Jewish matters of
today in helping establish some record for the future.

I would also mention somewhere along about this time I had gone off - World
War II had arrived and I had gone into the service. Upon my return, or
actually just before going into the service, I had remembered going into
high school one day - Phoenix Union High School - and passed down the hall
and saw a young lady sitting at a little desk during hall study. I said
hello to her; she didn't even look up at me, she just said hello without
even looking up; very, very shy in those days. Not really shy anymore, and
quite talkative now. That girl's name was Marjorie and Aubrey married
Marjorie. I would have to tell you that there are some great, marvelous
experiences that took place from that time forward, including 
the Aubrey Grouskay family having three children.

I would also mention to you something about - I've been asked so many times
- how is it that we're in the cattle business? I must mention to you that,
as nearly as we know, and from my father sharing the thoughts with me, was
that the Grouskays had, in Europe, Canada and America, always been in the
livestock business, going all the way back to probably 7 or 8 generations
that my father has informed me. So many people seem to think this was so
strange but this is why we were in the business. My son will be the first
one that's not in the cattle business. Quite frankly, he is doing what he
is successful in doing and doing what he wishes to do and this is fine.

I might add further that some very interesting things took place that were
recognized as the growth of Phoenix, when there became a temple and then
there became a shul in the community. How there became the early cemetery
was actually very interesting. Part of the land that was started by a
French Jew.

PICKELNER: Aubrey, you mentioned the cemetery at Beth Israel.
We are very much interested in how it all came about at the very beginning,
and could you also tell us your own involvement in it in later years.

GROUSKAY: Yes, Dorothy, I do remember that Mr. Diamond was very
active In the cemetery, Ken's father. Mr. Kiviat was involved. Mr. Citron was 
very much involved, Aaron Citron. I was asked to serve on the cemetery committee 
and did so; finally became chairman of it and convinced people that we should 
really and truly try to do things there to make it very presentable. Going back 
to the very beginning of the cemetery, I remember, I believe, that In 1896 or in 
1906 there was a French Jew by the name of Wormser living In Phoenix and 
somewhat of a farmer. He had accumulated some land and he left that land to the 
Phoenix Hebrew Association. So that is where the cemetery is now. The rest of 
the land that he accumulated - it's quite interesting - he sold to Mr. Heard and 
that became the basis of the Heard Land and Cattle Company.

Mr. Wormser is interred in the circle where the flag is at the cemetery.
One little mention of a situation that I was involved in and that I have to
laugh at myself is that one morning I was so anxious to have an American
flag over the cemetery that one morning in the dark when the cement was dry
and the pole was strong I drove into the cemetery and I put that flag up in
the air, and then I went on the ranch to the feedlot. I got a phone call
that morning about 10:00 and the voice on the other end of the phone asked
me what I knew about the flag and I said, "Well, I put it up this morning",
and he said, "Well, get somebody to change it; you've got it up there
upside down." So, my intentions were good but that's the way it turned out.

One of the closest things to me in relation to Jewish obligations, Jewish
concerns, is the years that I spent at the cemetery hoping that we could
make it much nicer than it was. I believe that the growth of Phoenix was
beginning to develop itself with the growth of the Jewish community. My
father, being one of the founders of Beth El Synagogue and the third
president of Beth El Synagogue-- the interesting part of that is that when
I became president of Temple Beth Israel - and this is merely a growth
factor indicating the involvement of the Jews in the community it was the
first time that a son whose father had been a president of the temple a son
became president of the temple. of course, this happened again in a number
of instances after this.

Another one I believe that was brought to my attention was when I was
president of Temple Beth Israel and my daughter, Karen was married there,
it was the first time, I believe, that a child was married in the temple
while their father was president of the temple. These are just growth
factors but they became indicative and people became aware of them - of the
growing community. I look back when there were 10, 12, 14 families in the
community and now the studies that the Federation have made just recently
it would seem that we have about 38,000 people of Jewish persuasion within
the community. It's amazing.

Going back again, I mentioned Prescott earlier. There were 3 Jewish
families In Prescott when I was up there. Now I understand there's some 30
or 35 families. I question how many Jewish families were in Flagstaff, but
now I'm told that there could even be as many as 50 Jewish families in
Flagstaff. However, this is not to overlook the fact that there are many
early, early - in the 1800's Jews that crisscrossed Arizona when it was a
territory. Many of those people have left their descendants here; the names
of towns and areas represent Jewish names, and many of those people of
course they're descendants - some of them are not - of Jewish faith any
longer, they're various other faiths. But the history of the Jew throughout
Arizona is a very comfortable, a very worthwhile history and should be a
proud history because of the contributions they have made to this state.

PICKELNER: You have so much to tell us. You are unusual in your
occupation here and in the business you carried on all these years in the
cattle world. What was it like being the Jewish cattleman among all these
non-Jewish people, the Mexicans and so on? Tell us about that experience.

GROUSKAY: Well, Dorothy, rather an interesting experience in the early days
here. Most of my life, in many instances, more people thought I was Irish
rather than Jewish. I quickly inform them that had I been Irish I'd of just
been an Irish Jew. I've had a marvelous romance with Judaism through the years. 
In the history of Judaism for wherever Jews have been they've made good, strong, 
honorable contributions.

Here in the early days people seem to be rather surprised that we were Jews
and in the cattle business. If one knows the historical history all the way
back to the Bible days Jews were in agriculture, they were shepherds, and
it's not unusual. Throughout the country there's been a lot of Jews who
were meat packers. But this seems to have been quite a question being
Jewish and having cattle feed lots and that kind of involvement. Many
people seem to be surprised that I would work all my cattle myself with
cowboys on horseback because it's like anything else. You can learn to do
these things. But we did. I had a lot of fun being talked about so much
about being a Jewish cowboy. It's part of the career of being involved in
this kind of economics; this kind of endeavor. I would also mention that
having been in this business I had a lot of people of Mexican vintage and
all my experience with Mexican people has been very delightful. By large
the far majority of these people nationally across the board I found great
respect for these people. They are not complainers, hard workers; we're not
talking about a few of those who don't fit in, everybody's got them, but by
and large these people fit in very well and are very knowledgeable and work
real hard and really want to please. I have great respect for these people.

As far as the blacks are concerned we had very little involvement with
these people because they didn't present themselves into this type of
cattle labor, but when they did the few that were there they responded
quite well. I had pretty good relationships with most all these people. I
did find that the usual Caucasian cowman, there were a few of these kinds
of people on the fringes that were anti-Semitic, and anti-Semitism is
something that is sort of there and now and then it comes out. There were
some situations that were unpleasant and I'm sure that many people
experienced them. As time went on some of these things mended themselves
and people interacted. When one found that one was responsible there was
some respect that developed and economics went on.

PICKELNER: Aubrey, in your long life here in Arizona, being one
of the earlier newcomers and you grew up here, do you think your life here
was any different than people growing up in any other part of the southwest
or in the south? Who were your associates and did you have friends as kids
and did you join in any associations when you grew up?

GROUSKAY: Dorothy, to respond to what you asked about kids I
think probably I'll share a little bit with you but probably I could start
out by saying that when I was a kid growing up probably one of the best
words that could fit it, I guess I would have been classed pretty much of a
little mazik at the time. Yes, I did in Tucson and in Phoenix I had a
little gang called Red, White and Blue Gang and we'd get in lots of fights.
We'd fight them and they'd fight us and we'd fight them and different
things went on. Now and then my father would catch up with me and tell me
that he had not raised any shkutzim in Europe and not in Canada and he
wasn't going to raise any of them here and you better get straight with it.

The next thing that happened to me in Prescott that I got into serious
trouble with was that I ditched school one day and I took the rope and went
up near Thumb Butte Mountain and that's where we would catch some burros
and we would ride them and then we could get to the edge of the city, we'd
turn them loose and they'd go back to Thumb Butte Mountain. Well, one day
riding one of these burros past a little old shanty I went in to see what
was in there and I found a can of orange paint. So I painted the burros'
hoofs orange, got back on, rode the place up to Hassyampa Mountain Club
where we had a little house. My mother was sitting on the porch and I was
very delighted to see her sitting on the porch, seeming to be somewhat
enjoying herself in spite of her illness. My mother asked me what was on
those burros' hoofs and I told her and she said you immediately take the
paint off of those hoofs. You can't do that to an animal. One of the early
teachings that I had of how you do treat the animals and how you get
along with them. I took that orange paint off those animals and I must
share with you I no longer ever thought of painting another animal. That
was one of the toughest jobs I ever had.

Going back to our little gang it was pretty active. We would go into the
grocery stores and whenever we could we would steal candy bars. I was
trying to be very progressive in those days, hoping that I would learn how
to steal them well and maybe it wouldn't be too long I could steal
something bigger. This is one of the things that you grow up in.

Dorothy, you asked me a little while ago something about the social
activities. The social activities I mentioned before really were something
to do with the temple. In the early days the business of additional
organizations starting did not start until some time later that were close
affiliates to the temple body. Jewish weddings in this community were quite
an event because there weren't that many.

There was also for entertainment some picnics. Joyland Park; anywhere on
the edge of town which was not very difficult to get to because the city
was so small. There was Riverside Park, picnics, movies were part of the
entertainment. You know, we spoke about the Mexicans in passing; we spoke
about the black people. I would also mention to you the Indians. The
Indians were extremely
colorful. I remember people coming in on the train - the method of
transportation was buses or trains - airplanes sort of weren't really truly
involved In the early days. These Indian people, especially the ladies,
would come in in their regalia which was just beautiful. They'd be at the
station. I remember where the depot was before the one that was built
later, they would be sitting there cross-legged and people would get off
the train. I remember watching, especially people from the East, getting
off the train and they would see these Indians there and they were really
frightened of them and didn't know what to do. Many of them walked way
around and went into another door. The Indians were colorful people here.
They really were not trouble or problems at all. I could tell you though
that I remember that, say, on Thomas Road, for example, housing reached to
the south side of Thomas Road, it did not reach to the north side of Thomas
Road. At 4:00 in the afternoon anybody that lived over In that area and
Marjorie and her family lived over there on West Culver and if they got
anywhere s near Thomas Road the mothers would go looking for their children
at 4:00 in the afternoon. That was referred to way on the east side of
Phoenix or on the north side of Phoenix as Indian country. If you're on the
south side of Phoenix it may be that the Indians from the Laveen area would
come in.

The country, even though statehood had taken place,
the country was still raw country. In my times in Prescott when I had a
wagon and had all kinds of magazines and candy and I would go to Whipple
Barracks and sell my wares I remember that on Whiskey Row in Prescott men
were carrying sidearms in the '30's. I also remember quite frankly in
having my wagon there was a cigar store across from the courthouse called
the Robinson Cigar Store, all kinds of magazines and candy and gum and
shaving material and cigarettes. I would load up and pull my wagon up to
Whipple Barracks and invariably every time I got up there I would find that
I'd get in to the wrong part of the hospital up there, that civilians were
not allowed In and invariably every time the commanding officer would come
by in a car and catch me and threaten to lock me up if I made a mistake
again, and of course I made a mistake again. He finally said, "Well, I
guess you and I need to be friends because I can't control you anyway."

PICKELNER: Were there such organizations as the Masons? I've
heard that there were some early people in the Masonic order. Would you
tell us about that?

GROUSKAY: Yes. The Masons and the Shrine. I went into Arizona #2 here in
Phoenix and also into the Shrine, but I must tell you it was kind of
exciting to go into the Masons and having some people involved with me. I
remember Mr. Barnett Marks, Royal Marks' father, a very wonderful gentleman
and considered one of the finest attorneys of the area.

I think he got here, I'm sure he did, before statehood. He was one of the
witnesses when I went in. This gentleman, by the way, needs to really and
truly be included as one of the really and truly great, highly respected
people of Jewish faith in the state, and as an attorney respected in the
same light.

I joined, as I mentioned a moment ago, the Arizona Blue Lodge #2 and the
Shrine and, of course, naturally, with my background I would ride in the
Shrine Patrol and had a lot of fun.

I must also tell you in passing that where the Shrine has a lot of fun they
do marvelous work throughout the country, with respect to their hospitals
and respect to the crippled children, and that in turn is one of the things
that attracted me to this.

I would also mention to you that the organizations, Dorothy, that you asked
me about were just beginning at that period to commence. There were a
number of organizations in the beginning, several that they were not too
warm to including Jews. one of them, of course, well known was Camelback
Inn. Finally, when that was changed it made a great difference. Phoenix
began to recognize and accept the fact with its growth factor that the
truth of the matter was that it began to really and truly recognize the
Jews, with a small hesitancy I think, that Jews were part of the community,
a viable part of the community and needed to be Included.

PICKELNER: Well, Aubrey, you certainly have had a good rich life here.
Thinking back on it all what was life in general like? What was the
community like and would you trade it in for the one today?


	[Tape ends abruptly. End of interview.]