..inte: Jack Grodzinsky ..intr: Eve Hubschman ..da: 1998 ..ca: ..ftxt: Jack Grodzinsky Interview HUBSCHMAN: This is February 13, 1998 and I am talking with Jack Grodzinsky. GRODZINSKY: I'm Jack Grodzinsky. Today is February 13, 1998 and I'm here with Eve Hubschman being interviewed about Phoenix, about my coming to Phoenix and what I've done since I've been in Phoenix. HUBSCHMAN: Tell me when you were born and where and about your family. GRODZINSKY: I was born on November 16, 1919 in New York City on Madison Avenue and 97th Street, one block from Central Park. HUBSCHMAN: You went to school ... GRODZINSKY: I went to school in Brooklyn, New York and I went to High School and Brooklyn College. HUBSCHMAN: Oh, you're a Brooklyn College graduate. GRODZINSKY: Well, I didn't graduate from Brooklyn College. I went to work and I fell asleep at Brooklyn College. I went to Brooklyn College at night. Eleanor's a graduate of Brooklyn College. HUBSCHMAN: Tell me about your parents. GRODZINSKY: My mother was from Poland; my father was from Russia. They were immigrants. HUBSCHMAN: How many children? GRODZINSKY: There were three children in the family. I had an older sister; her name was Yetta Cohen and a younger sister, whose name was Anna Simon, both of which are deceased. HUBSCHMAN: What language did you speak at home? GRODZINSKY: We spoke English, but my mother spoke Yiddish and English. That's why I can understand Yiddish and I speak a little Yiddish. I heard Yiddish in my house when I was growing up. HUBSCHMAN: Were you a very Orthodox family? GRODZINSKY: My mother was Orthodox, yes. I was bar mitzvahed in an Orthodox synagogue in Brooklyn. Today, I'm not - even though I support Chabad Lebovicher we don't have a kosher house. Rabbi Levinthal would like for me to have a kosher house. He comes here every month. HUBSCHMAN: Does he eat here? GRODZINSKY: No, he won't eat here. He comes here to collect money. The last time he was here he put up 15 mazusas - every opening in the door is a mazusa. You're supposed to do that in a real religious home - have mazusas in every opening. HUBSCHMAN: Your father, you said, died when you were a young man? GRODZINSKY: Yes, I was only ten years old when my father died. My mother was in business because my father was sickly, so my mother had a typical candy store in Brooklyn, New York. HUBSCHMAN: Where in Brooklyn? GRODZINSKY: It was in Bensenhurst. In fact, my mother started the first luncheonette business. I don't know if you're familiar with the luncheonette. HUBSCHMAN: Oh, yes. GRODZINSKY: When we were growing up we lived above the store. My mother would open the candy store in the morning and put out the newspapers and sell cigarettes. I'm talking about during the Depression. My father died in 1929 and cigarettes were 12 cents a pack. The New York Times was 3 cents and the Daily Mirror and Daily News were 2 cents. The Journal American, the World Telegram, the Graphic - 2 cents. All those newspapers - they're no longer in business. Although I think the Daily News is still in business. HUBSCHMAN: Oh, yeah. And the Daily Mirror. GRODZINSKY: No, the Mirror is not. When I left New York they were out of business. I left New York in 1949. 1 had a deli on Flappersham between Church and Snyder, which was right close to Erasmus Hall High School. Incidentally, there I had a strictly kosher deli - no milk mixed in. We served only meat. I learned the deli business when I was there from a man by the name of Mr. Gelfant. He had that deli 16 years when I bought it from him. HUBSCHMAN: Tell a little bit about when you were married and about Eleanor. GRODZINSKY: I met Eleanor in Bensenhurst when I used to belong to the American Jewish Congress and so did she. We belonged to the Mapleton Youth Division of the American Jewish Congress. HUBSCHMAN: Were you Zionists then? GRODZINSKY: Sort of, I was connected a little bit with the Zionist's organization. We married in 1944 in Brooklyn, New York. We had three children. Ellen - Ellen Dean now - was three years old when we left New York to come to Arizona. That's one of the reasons we came to Arizona because she had asthma. We were looking for a dryer, warmer climate. We came to Arizona in 1949. HUBSCHMAN: Your other two children's names? GRODZINSKY: My son at that time was one years old; his name is Allen. He now lives in Hawaii and Sedona. My younger daughter, Jill, was born here in Arizona and she is now 40 years old. My son is 50 years old and Ellen is 52 or 53. That's how long I've been in Arizona. I've been in Arizona since 1949, so I've been here - what - 50 years. It'll be 50 years next year. HUBSCHMAN: When you first came you went ... GRODZINSKY: I bought a business called Pat's Caf‰ on Monroe Street where the big Bank One now stands. In those days the people of Arizona didn't like New Yorkers or Jews and I was a Jew from New York and my business suffered because I was a Jew from New York. But we stayed in business there on Monroe Street for 12 years, during which time we opened our deli on 16th Street and McDowell. We bought out a place called Herman's Corn Beef Junction - a fellow by the name of Herman Clauson owned the place. We bought that in 1952. We've been in the deli business here in Phoenix ever since then. I found this, this morning. That was the Miracle Mile menu from 16th Street and McDowell. See the prices at that time. Then we opened Park Central and then we opened Christown. See what the prices are. HUBSCHMAN: This is a menu that goes back to the first Miracle Mile? GRODZINSKY: Yes. HUBSCHMAN: What date is that? GRODZINSKY: I'd say that menu is 1952. HUBSCHMAN: You had a great menu - a lot of stuff. GRODZINSKY: Yes. HUBSCHMAN: By that time, in 1952, and that was after the war now, did the war make a difference? GRODZINSKY: Well, I wasn't here. I was still in New York after the war. HUBSCHMAN: Yes. Incidentally, you weren't drafted or anything? GRODZINSKY: No. I was the only boy and I had a deferment because my father had died when I was ten years old and I was deferred because I was working in the business with my mother. HUBSCHMAN: You said before that your sisters were in the business with you here. GRODZINSKY: Yes. I encouraged them to come out here and then they came into business with me. They were very helpful and very instrumental in helping the business be a success. My oldest sister was a very good businesswoman and they were both very hard-working business people. HUBSCHMAN: What was Phoenix like in those days? GRODZINSKY: Well, the outlying district in those days was McDowell and 16th Street. There were no shopping centers. Let me tell you where the main Miracle Mile came from. When we bought out this man - Herman's Corn Beef Junction - he had a pretty bad reputation, so we wanted to change the name. HUBSCHMAN: Why did he have a bad reputation? GRODZINSKY: He didn't run the place too clean and he didn't get along with the union. In those days the restaurant union was pretty strong in Phoenix. He wouldn't have anything to do with the union, so his reputation was not the best. So, we were anxious when we bought him out to change the name. In 1950, '5 1, '52, from 7th Street to 24th Street on McDowell Road they called that area Miracle Mile - the merchants that were in business there. HUBSCHMAN: Why did they call it that? GRODZINSKY: They were trying to develop that area as a shopping area. It would be the first outlying shopping area other than downtown Phoenix. In those days the only shopping there in Phoenix, Arizona was downtown. There was Korrick's department store, Penny's department store, Dorris Heyman department store, Hannys - did you ever hear of Hannys? Remember them? HUBSCHMAN: No. GRODZINSKY: Well, Hannys was a clothing store. A fellow by the name of Ben Projan owned it. It was a very prestigious men's clothing store and stayed downtown for many, many years. The first outlying business district was McDowell Road, believe it or not. So, we adopted the name Miracle Mile, because the man, when we bought the place, said "Why don't you call it Miracle Mile. People will be able to identify where it is because they'll know that street is called Miracle Mile." So, we adopted the name Miracle Mile. We were left with the name. The street died out. If you go out to McDowell Road today there is a little area about 18th Street and there's a sign up there that says Miracle Mile Mart - there's a little business there. But, other than that area, the name Miracle Mile which we adopted is the only thing remaining of that era. Now, when you say Miracle Mile they don't think of the street, they think of the deli. So, the name stuck with us, but not with the street for which it was originally named. Our first outlying, other than Miracle Mile on 16th Street, we opened in Park Central in 1958. Park Central Shopping Center started in 1957, '58 and we went in there. HUBSCHMAN: When you started Miracle Mile, was it then a strictly kosher place? GRODZINSKY: No. The one I had in New York was strictly kosher. HUBSCHMAN: But here it was never - GRODZINSKY: No, it was kosher style. HUBSCHMAN: Were there changing attitudes about anti-Semitism? GRODZINSKY: I would say there was not outright anti-Semitism. I never really - other than the incident of that store, Pat's Caf‰, where the redneck people -- HUBSCHMAN: Did they say something? GRODZINSKY: They never said it. HUBSCHMAN: They just didn't come in. GRODZINSKY: They didn't support you, and if you were a New Yorker you were worse than a Jew. They didn't like New Yorkers. Oh, no! New Yorkers were wise guys, you know. HUBSCHMAN: When you first came here were you affiliated or active with any particular shul or congregation? GRODZINSKY: No. I was here maybe a year or so and I joined Beth El Congregation. Subsequently, I was member of Temple Beth Israel and, at one time, was a member of Beth El, Temple Beth Israel, Beth Hebrew - I don't know if you know where they were. They were on Portland and 3rd Street. I always supported the shuls. Today, I belong to Har Zion, Chabad, Beth El and Young Israel. HUBSCHMAN: You've got all bets covered. GRODZINSKY: I always supported the little synagogues that tried to get going. HUBSCHMAN: By the time you came did you have any kind of participation in the schuls or the religious life and education, other than just the memberships? GRODZINSKY: No, just that I supported them and was a member of them. I used to cater in both Beth El and Beth Israel. I was the so-called official caterer. In fact, I equipped Beth El's kitchen. HUBSCHMAN: Even though you weren't kosher, or the store was not kosher? GRODZINSKY: No, it wasn't kosher. Beth El was kosher and I ran it as kosher. I used to cater the seders, you know, the community seders. I, at one time, catered Beth El's seder, for a couple of hundred people, and simultaneously, at the same time, I catered for three hundred people at Beth Israel. I used to cater at the Jewish Community Center. So, in one particular year - I don't remember when it was - in the 70's - I catered 300 people at Temple Beth Israel, a couple hundred at Beth El and 60 people at the Jewish Community Center. You know who was at the Jewish Community Center? There was a family here called Smith - not Arnold Smith, it was Jerry and Irving Smith and Jerry Smith and Sam Feinberg. They were a very, very great family here that supported Beth El and they were all members of Beth El. HUBSCHMAN: Now, in your own home, did you observe the Jewish festivals and holidays and so forth? GRODZINSKY: Somewhat. Eleanor was never that religious. My son was bar mitzvahed at Beth El. I don't think my daughter was ever bat mitzvahed. But, we were members of Beth El. HUBSCHMAN: Did you have social relationships with non-Jews in the community? GRODZINSKY: I had non-Jewish friends. But, I had more Jewish friends. HUBSCHMAN: Were you ever active in any way in the politics here? GRODZINSKY: No. I was never involved in the politics, no. Just worked hard and was always working in the business, and so was my family. HUBSCHMAN: Who is running the Miracle Mile now? GRODZINSKY: Today? HUBSCHMAN: Yes. GRODZINSKY: My children. I no longer am connected with it. I don't have anything to do with it. HUBSCHMAN: When did you retire? GRODZINSKY: 1991. I stopped working in 1981 when I had a quadruple bypass, so I wasn't working anymore. My children were involved in the business. HUBSCHMAN: Both your daughters and your son? GRODZINSKY: My son went off to Hawaii. He never participated in the business. My younger daughter and my older daughter are both in the business and I subsequently gifted them some stock and then sold them the rest of the stock. They now own the businesses. At one time they were all together - the two stores. In fact, there were three stores at one time. You know we had one in Scottsdale. But, right now, as of today, my older daughter, Ellen, is married to Craig and they own Park Central, which is still operating. That's been in business since 1957. That would make it 32 years, wouldn't it? HUBSCHMAN: That would be 41 years. GRODZINSKY: 41 years, you're right. Jill and her husband own ... (tape interrupted) HUBSCHMAN: Who were your friends here? What was the social life like? GRODZINSKY: We didn't have a, but we had a group of friends that we used to meet and go to each other's homes and things like that. I was involved with the synagogues, so we had some friends at the synagogues. I always had my immediate family here, my children and, in those days, both my sisters and their children. My younger sister died at 43 and my older sister died at 75. HUBSCHMAN: Where did you live during the time you were here? You first went to Tucson, you said? GRODZINSKY: Yes, when I first came here I was in Tucson for one month. I didn't like Tucson, though. Then I came to Phoenix and we rented a house on Coral Drive and 34th Street. My first house that I bought - I'm trying to remember what year it was - but I remember how much I paid for it - $9,800. It was on 12th Avenue between Indian School and Camelback. I lived there for many years. My only other house was this one which I bought in 1967, so I've been living here - HUBSCHMAN: 32 years. At that time, were there any Jewish neighborhoods the way they used to be in Brooklyn? GRODZINSKY: No. Never was. There were never any Jewish neighborhoods until today - there are no Jewish neighborhoods. HUBSCHMAN: Were there any problems about not selling land or property or houses to Jews? GRODZINSKY: No. Not that I know of. HUBSCHMAN: Nothing at all like that? GRODZINSKY: No, I never heard of that. I never ran into that. HUBSCHMAN: What about the amenities? For example, Camelback Inn was not accepting Jews. GRODZINSKY: At that time they weren't. HUBSCHMAN: Were there other places where Jews were not welcome? GRODZINSKY: Just Camelback Inn. HUBSCHMAN: That was the only one? GRODZINSKY: Well, they had the reputation for it. I remember there was a guy, Leibowitz, from New York, that refused to stay there because of that. Leibowitz was the district attorney in New York City. They were vacationing here and he wouldn't stay at the hotel because of their attitude. But they eventually changed their attitude and they even catered kosher, or did, for some time. Actually, other than the undertone of what I told you about at Pat's Caf‰, I never really experienced outright anti-Semitism. There were times I may have felt it, but I never had anti-Semitism. HUBSCHMAN: Was it better than in Brooklyn? GRODZINSKY: No. I never felt as comfortable as I did in New York. New York was home, and besides, there's a lot of Jews in New York. We were a very small minority here and, in fact, I think, statistically, 30% of the population in New York are Jewish. Did you know that? HUBSCHMAN: No. GRODZINSKY: What I was involved in politically - if you want to call it politically, it really wasn't even political - it was the American Jewish Congress. But we were branded Communist in those days. I want to tell you. Our division, the Mapleton Youth Division, which was in Bensenhurst, of the American Jewish Congress, we one time got a letter from higher up in the American Jewish Congress to cease and desist, because there were a lot of guys in our group that were Communist. And so was I. HUBSCHMAN: There were a lot of the young people ... GRODZINSKY: I was. I was accused of being a Communist when I was growing up. I really wasn't. I used to buy the Daily Worker once in a while. Remember that newspaper? But most of my friends were very, very liberal. You talk about anti-Semitism. We had a luncheonette across the street from Sperry Gyroscope - did you ever hear of Sperry's? HUBSCHMAN: Yes, but that was out on - GRODZINSKY: They were in Long Island - I'm talking about during the war - they had their administrative offices on Walber Street in Brooklyn and we had a little luncheonette right across the street from them. The personnel department was in that administrative office and we had lots of people coming into my store to eat. I tried to get a friend of mine a job - my friend was Jewish - his name was Bernard Epstein, he's no longer alive. I tried to get him a job in Sperry's and I spoke to the head of the personnel department. He actually brought me, in writing, the company's attitude toward Jews. HUBSCHMAN: About the Sperry company's attitude? GRODZINSKY: Sperry's. That they won't hire Jews. That's really something. He could have gotten himself in trouble. HUBSCHMAN: At that time it wouldn't have made any difference. GRODZINSKY: Well, anyway, he shows me, in writing, that the Jews cause problems, they want to join unions and things like that. I said to him, "What do you mean?" He gave my friend a job and my friend got started and also, as a result of being involved with the war effort, he got a deferment from the army. This is my friend, Bernie Epstein. Subsequently, he worked with and all these kinds of things and he went into the zipper business as a result of working for Sperry's and made a lot of money. So, that's when I experienced some anti-Semitism in New York. But, in New York the Jews were very comfortable there. HUBSCHMAN: But, let me tell you that, as a girl, a graduate of Brooklyn College, I could not get a job at Macy's and I could not get a job at the telephone company. GRODZINSKY: Right. Telephone company, definitely not. HUBSCHMAN: But, here, aside from the feeling that they didn't come into your store because you were from New York - but it was not more than that. GRODZINSKY: No, not outright anti-Semitism. HUBSCHMAN: What else can you tell me about what the city looked like? GRODZINSKY: It looked the same - Central Avenue was a street of churches, lots of churches on Central - still a lot of churches on Central. You know what the first shopping center was in Phoenix, Arizona? HUBSCHMAN: Park Central, no? GRODZINSKY: Before. Camelback and Central - what's the name of that? Uptown Plaza. That's the first one. After Uptown Plaza came Park Central. Park Central was a dairy. Central Dairy it was called. Cows were there, right there. HUBSCHMAN: How do you feel about the changes that have taken place? GRODZINSKY: Well, I just grew with it, you know. The town grew and I've seen lots of changes here and lots of traffic changes. I always liked Phoenix. Eleanor likes it today. HUBSCHMAN: Now she does? GRODZINSKY: Oh, sure. Well, we still love New York. I was in New York just this past October. We go back there all the time to see the leaves change in the Catskill Mountains. HUBSCHMAN: You were at the Falls View. GRODZINSKY: How do you know? HUBSCHMAN: I asked because we were there for our 36th anniversary at the Falls View. My husband died a month later. GRODZINSKY: I love it with the leaves changing there and we stayed at the Falls View. But the last time we stayed at the Netherly - not because I wanted to, because I took a bunch of my friends there - I think we had five rooms. I made reservations way ahead of time at the Falls View. We got up there with all these friends and they don't have rooms for us. I said, "You're kidding." They said, "Don't worry about it. We'll put you up at the Netherly." So, we stayed at the Netherly. HUBSCHMAN: At the Falls View prices? GRODZINSKY: Same price. You know the Netherly now is not kosher. Falls View still is. HUBSCHMAN: I think it was Eleanor who told me they have the same - GRODZINSKY: They just merged. A company just bought both places. When we were there this time we went to the Falls View entertainment and some of the people from the Falls View came to the Netherly. Last year I was up there for Rosh Hashanah. They had services there. HUBSCHMAN: Do you still celebrate Rosh Hashanah, all the major holidays, here, in Phoenix? GRODZINSKY: Yes, I went a year ago to Hebon. Of course, I support Hebon. But, I still belong to Beth El and pay the dues at Beth El. But I go to Hebon on Saturday - I'm going there tonight, they have a rabbi speaking tonight from out of town. HUBSCHMAN: What else can you tell me about your stay here in Phoenix? Was Eleanor part of the business at any time? GRODZINSKY: No. She never worked in the business. My children did, but she never did. She used to help me with catering, when I used to cater at Beth El and stuff. But I used to work so hard that she finally put her foot down and she was afraid I was going to drop dead in front of the stoves. One time when we were catering a seder she took a bunch of plates, threw them all on the floor and said, "That's it, no more." I gave up the catering. I gave it away to a lady by the name of Fran Beitman. I just gave her the whole thing for free. HUBSCHMAN: You're known as a philanthropist. GRODZINSKY: I equipped that kitchen in Beth El. HUBSCHMAN: What else can you tell me about living here in Phoenix? GRODZINSKY: It's great. HUBSCHMAN: This is a gorgeous home. GRODZINSKY: We bought this house in 1967. We remodeled it in 1983. This used to be a brick wall. This used to be Arcadia doors. Not the whole thing - it was brick and there were a couple of arcadia doors. We had the whole place remodeled. We put the pool in. HUBSCHMAN: Just gorgeous. Just lovely to look at. GRODZINSKY: Yes, it's a nice house. HUBSCHMAN: Now, in all these 50 years, you're not sorry that you left New York. GRODZINSKY: No, no, really I'm not. Have you been back to Flatbush? HUBSCHMAN: Not for many years. GRODZINSKY: That neighborhood that you're talking about - it's gone. You know Macy's was there? HUBSCHMAN: Of course I knew Macy's. GRODZINSKY: They tilled it. I lived off Church Avenue and I lived on Ocean Avenue and Church. Then I lived on 19th Street and Church, which was one block from Ocean Avenue, near the Church Avenue Station. I had a guy by the name of Murray Pearlman who worked for me in the deli in Brooklyn, on Flatbush Avenue. He was an old time deli man, probably like your father. In those days we didn't have slicing machines. We sliced it by hand. The bread - also by hand. When you came in for a sandwich this guy would take this long rye bread, cut off two slices of bread - so good! - and cut the corned beef by hand. Man, was he good! Was he fast! See if you remember this. When you went to a deli and you bought deli to take home, they gave you free mustard in those little - HUBSCHMAN: In those little things - yes, absolutely! Now, did you have trouble here getting workers? GRODZINSKY: We didn't have qualified deli people - no. Never did. When I bought Pat's Caf‰ and I put up a sign "Bagel and Butter - 10 cents", a guy came in and said, "Could I have one of those ba-schels?" He didn't even know what it was. Did you know that the Jews here in those days - I'm talking about 1949, '50, '51 - didn't know what corned beef was? They didn't know what pastrami was? HUBSCHMAN: What were they eating? GRODZINSKY: They didn't know from it. You know that the hot dogs that they had in those days came from Chicago and they were red. They called them red hots and they came in a barrel in brine and they were red like fire - painted red. Those were the hot dogs and they were Chicago hot dogs. You know who brought Hebrew National to Phoenix, Arizona? HUBSCHMAN: You. GRODZINSKY: Jack Grodzinsky. They didn't know what Hebrew National was. HUBSCHMAN: Even the Jews? GRODZINSKY: No. They never heard of it. Because Hebrew National was popular in New York, but they never heard of it. I brought them here to Phoenix, Arizona. HUBSCHMAN: And you brought the pastrami and corned beef. GRODZINSKY: Yes, New York style pastrami. They didn't know what it was. In fact, nobody here would make it. You couldn't buy it here. I used to buy it in California. HUBSCHMAN: When did Irving Goldstein come? GRODZINSKY: He came later. HUBSCHMAN: Oh, because he does that, doesn't he? GRODZINSKY: Yes, today he does that. He came from New York. HUBSCHMAN: Did people enjoy this new kind of food, or did they resist it? GRODZINSKY: A lot of them didn't know what it was. HUBSCHMAN: Were you able to sell it to a non-Jewish client? GRODZINSKY: Oh, yeah. That's the ones we sold it to. HUBSCHMAN: The non-Jews more than the Jews. GRODZINSKY: Sure. At any time in our deli, our trade was always 80-85% non-Jewish. Until today. 85%. HUBSCHMAN: Where do the Jews go? GRODZINSKY: Who knows where they are? Some of them go to Chompies now instead. If we had to depend on the Jews we would not be in business, today, or five years ago, or ten years ago. I still love them, but they're not the basis of our business. HUBSCHMAN: That's interesting. l know that there used to be a joke about bagels - they thought they were hard rolls. They didn't know about it. Now, everybody eats bagels. GRODZINSKY: Now today everybody - look at all the bagel places. You've got the Great Bagel Company. HUBSCHMAN: Where did you get your bagels then? GRODZINSKY: We used to buy them from a local guy here. HUBSCHMAN: There was a guy making them? GRODZINSKY: Sure, there was a guy making them. On 7th Street there was a guy. I was in the bakery business. Did you know that? HUBSCHMAN: No. GRODZINSKY: Sure. I nearly went crazy in the bakery business. I bought out Sun Valley Bakery. Did you know Sun Valley Bakery here? HUBSCHMAN: That was a big business? GRODZINSKY: They had 17 outlets. HUBSCHMAN: And you bought them out? GRODZINSKY: They were closed out. A guy by the name of Bernie Wilkins - HUBSCHN4AN: He was Jewish? GRODZINSKY: Yes. HUBSCHMAN: So, they were not making only bagels? GRODZINSKY: No, they made everything. The whole Jewish line. Jewish rye bread, pumpernickel, onion rolls, kaiser rolls, french bread - HUBSCHMAN: Oh, this is before Karsh. GRODZINSKY: Where do you think Karsh started from? HUBSCHN4AN: I don't know. That was you, too? GRODZINSKY: When I owned it, it was called Jack's Quality Bakery, on Central Avenue. Do you remember when Gross' Deli was there? HUBSCHMAN: I only came 12 years ago. GRODZINSKY: Oh, really. Well, I owned this bakery and I went into it to supply my stores with bread. That's why I went into the bakery business. HUBSCHMAN: Otherwise, where were you getting it from? GRODZINSKY: From Sun Valley Bakery before he went broke and from another bakery here called - no, prior to Sun Valley, I opened a bakery called Nosharyl Bakery. It was on 7th Street and McDowell Road. I had a partner by the name of Abe Holtzman - the best Jewish bread baker that you ever saw in your life - the best. HUBSCHNMAN: This was while you still owned Miracle Mile and the Pat's - or did you give up Pat's? GRODZINSKY: Yes. I owned Pat's and Miracle Mile. HUBSCHMAN: And then you bought a bakery. GRODZINSKY: Right. In order to supply my stores. That's why I went into the bakery business. But I didn't know the bakery business. In other words, if a baker didn't show up I don't know what to do. In my business if a guy didn't show up I went in and cooked. I could do it, but I did not know the bakery business. But I went into it in order to give me a source of supply for the deli. HUBSCHMAN: But you didn't keep the 17 stores. GRODZINSKY: No, he had closed them up already. He went broke. HUBSCHMAN: He went broke. So, you bought the name. GRODZINSKY: I bought the location. It was called Sun Valley Bakery and I bought the location on Central Avenue. Now, there's an empty lot there - they tore the bakery down, but there was a very popular bakery there. HUBSCHMAN: Did you learn how to bake? GRODZINSKY: Never learned it. I'm ashamed to say. HUBSCHMAN: When Holtzman wasn't around, were you able to get other workers? GRODZINSKY: No. Abe Holtzman used to work 18 hours a day. The greatest baker you ever saw in your life. The greatest. HUBSCHMAN: When did Ronay come into the business? Was that much later, too? GRODZINSKY: When I meet Ronay now, he reminds me that he wanted to come to work for me, and that I didn't hire him. HUBSCHMAN: You didn't hire him. GRODZINSKY: Ronay was the brother-in-law of -- Pearl Wilkins is Ronay's wife. Her brother and her mother and father were Sun Valley Bakery. HUBSCHMAN: It's all very connected. GRODZINSKY: Bob Ronay was a cake baker from the old country. He's a good baker. HUBSCHMAN: He still makes good challahs. GRODZINSKY: Yes. I used to go with him when he baked challahs and I used to help him make the challahs. HUBSCHMAN: He used to bake for Beth El, too. GRODZINSKY: Yes. He called me last week. I used to meet him at the health club. He said, "I haven't seen you at the health club. Where are you?" I said, "Well, I haven't been too well." I'm on dialysis now. HUBSCHMAN: How many times a day? GRODZINSKY: I'm doing it at home now. HUBSCHMAN: That's a lot easier. GRODZINSKY: I used to go three times a week, but now I do it at home. What did I want to tell you about? HUBSCHMAN: You were telling about the bakery. GRODZINSKY: I got a hold of one of my suppliers in California and I said, "Find me a baker." He sent a guy by the name of Jack Karsh. Jack Karsh - want to hear this story? HUBSCHMAN: Yes. GRODZINSKY: Jack Karsh came to Phoenix and I took him into my bakery on Central Avenue. He went through the shop and he said, "Okay, what is it you want?" I said, "I need somebody to run this bakery. I have a proposition for you. I will pay you a salary and give you half of the business if you'll run the bakery. Half. As if you'd invested half the money." He said to me, "Are you kidding? You think I'm going to come in here and kill myself and bake and wind up with half of the business? No way." I says, "Are you kidding? I'm giving you a salary for working and half of the business as if you invested half the money." He says, "No way. I'm not interested." He says, "I'd rather buy the place." I never thought I could sell it. All I was looking for was someone to run it. I said to him, "How much money do you have?" He said, "$2,500." We're both standing there, I grabbed his hand, and I said, "Sold." HUBSCHMAN: $2,500 for a business? GRODZINSKY: It cost me $60,000. HUBSCHMAN: You wanted that much to get rid of it? GRODZINSKY: It cost me $60,000. HUBSCHMAN: How could you do that? GRODZINSKY: I sold it to him for $2,500 and that's why you see Karsh's name there 'til today. I brought Jack Karsh to Phoenix and I sold the business to Jack Karsh. Jack Karsh was a good baker. Jack Karsh sold it for $90,000. He sold it to a guy by the name of Eddie Gottlieb. Do you know who owns Karsh today? Arnie Gardner. Do you know who Arnie Gardner is? Eddie Gottlieb's son. Arnie Gardner - that's not his name. His name is Arnie Gottlieb, but he changed his name years ago to Arnie Gardner. His father bought the business from Jack Karsh and paid him $90,000 for it. Jack paid me $2,500. HUBSCHMAN: Are you still beating yourself up about that? GRODZINSKY: No. It doesn't bother me. It was the best thing I ever did. I was ready to jump off the roof anyway. HUBSCHMAN: But that's a big loss. GRODZINSKY: Do you know what the hardest business in the world is? The hardest. Nothing worse. HUBSCHMAN: Bakery? GRODZINSKY: Yes. Arnie Gardner can have it. A Jewish baker is the hardest business in the world. The restaurant business is hard. This is worse. Let me explain to you why. All the shortcomings of the restaurant business are in the bakery business, except it's worse. The bakery - you have to bake during the night for the next day. A restaurant you don't have to. That's number one. Number two, you're dealing with a perishable item that's no good the next day. When I used to cook soup I could use it the next day. HUBSCHMAN: Well, how about your salads? GRODZINSKY: Salads not, but soups, meats, briskets, corned beef Anything could be used the next day. Salads you make fresh, but that's only one little part of the restaurant business. Now, the temperamental baker. He's got to be very well trained, highly skilled. Cooks you don't have to - you can train a cook. I could teach you how to cook, but I can't teach you how to bake. Baking is very - HUBSCHMAN: Much harder than cooking? GRODZINSKY: Much harder. Much harder. So, you've got temperamental bakers, you've got working at night for the next day, you've got perishable items that you're preparing that are no good - now, today, you've got freezers. So, you put the stuff in the freezer it's still not freshly baked bread. So, that's a very, very hard business. Very, very hard. HUBSCHMAN: But to lose $57,500. GRODZINSKY: Sure. You know how long I was in it? Six months. HUBSCHMAN: You'd had enough. GRODZINSKY: I was losing money. Even though I was the best customer. The deal I made with Jack Karsh was - when I sold him the business, he must sell and supply me. He says, "Of course I'll supply you. You're the best customer." Which I was. I said, "Yes, but I want that in the contract. You've got to take care of me. That's why I went into the bakery business." HUBSCHMAN: Did you know then that he was a good baker? You had enough experience with him? GRODZINSKY: The guy that sent him from California, Dave Kramer, was my corned beef supplier. He sent him to me and Jack had just sold the bakery in Anaheim, California and this guy, Dave Kramer, said, "Hey, this guy knows the business." And he did. HUBSCHMAN: You took his word for it. GRODZINSKY: Oh, yes. Oh, sure. I saw right away. But, it was a big gamble. HUBSCHMAN: When did he sell the business? GRODZINSKY: He kept it for a couple of years and sold it to Eddie Gottlieb. HUBSCHMAN: But it just keeps his name. GRODZINSKY: Gottlieb thought that Karsh was such a great name. He could have changed it to Gottliebs or Gardners. But, Karsh had built up the business. HUBSCHMAN: He only kept it for two years? GRODZINSKY: That's all, a couple years. That's the bakery business, a very, very hard business. HUBSCHMAN: Well, let's see. Is there anything else that I haven't asked you about that you want to tell me? GRODZINSKY: No. HUBSCHMAN: Is there anything else that I should know? GRODZINSKY: Now you know the story about the bakery business. HUBSCHMAN: I want to know the story about you. GRODZINSKY: That was me. I was in the bakery business. And why I went into the bakery business. And why, as a businessman - I consider myself a fairly good businessman. HUBSCHMAN: ... (new tape) ... He worked as a carver to the end of his working days. GRODZINSKY: That's also a hard way to make a living, but he probably was good. HUBSCHMAN: He was very good. GRODZINSKY: He was probably like this man that I'm telling you about - Murray Pearlman. He cut so quick. I remember Murray Pearlman making those little mustard things. They were little waxed brown paper about this big. He used to make a cone out of them, hold a bunch of them in his hand, get the mustard, fill them, close them. It's a knack. You used to go in and buy hot dogs and they gave you two or three of these little cones - some free mustard, good mustard. HUBSCHMAN: Tell me about some of the things you did as a businessman. GRODZINSKY: Want to hear about my deli in New York? HUBSCHMAN: No, here - GRODZINSKY: Let me tell you about it. HUBSCHMAN: All right, go ahead. That was on Church Avenue? GRODZINSKY: On Pompish Avenue. I bought that business also - never walked into the store. Never walked into the store. I bought it in the broker's office. All I knew about it was that the man - Mr. Gelfant - who owned it before was there for 16 years. So, I knew he must have been making a living there for 16 years in the deli business. That was enough for me. HUBSCHMAN: But you had been in the deli business before that. GRODZINSKY: No, never. HUBSCHMAN: Well, what business were you in before that? GRODZINSKY: In the luncheonette business. My mother went from the candy store to a luncheonette. I told you she started a luncheonette business - not because she wanted to go into the food business. She used to cook for the children in the back of the store. My father died, she was alone, she was running the thing with the newspapers and the cigars and the cigarettes and the candy and all that. We were young kids going to school. So, she would make a cup of coffee, she would make a roll with butter, she would make a tuna fish sandwich. HUBSCHMAN: Did she have a counter there? GRODZINSKY: No. So, she started it. She started in the stationery stores. In those years, a candy store was called either a stationery store - they sold newspapers, magazines, toys, everything, ice cream sodas, ice cream. GRODZINSKY: Do you remember Charlotte Russe? HUBSCHMAN: Oh, yes. GRODZINSKY: You do? HUBSCHMAN: I go back a long way. GRODZINSKY: I didn't know you were that old. Those were the things that New Yorkers would know about - the Charlotte Russe. My mother was a little lady. She would work from 6:00 in the morning to midnight seven days a week, every day. When I was growing up, the only thing I remember is she was off one day - Rosh Hashanah, one day - Yom Kippur. That's all. She was off two days a year. HUBSCHMAN: Did she have a kosher household? GRODZINSKY: No. But she was a good cook. HUBSCHMAN: And no Pesach? And no seder? GRODZINSKY: No. She was busy working. She was bringing up three children alone, running a business during the Depression, people didn't have what to eat and my mother was making a living for the three children. [There is a section here that is not transcribed.] HUBSCHMAN: Are you glad you moved to Phoenix? GRODZINSKY: Well, the real reason was my daughter had asthma. HUBSCHMAN: Do you want to say your final words on this tape? GRODZINSKY: My final words are that it was a pleasure talking to you and I can tell you what else you want to know. HUBSCHMAN: So, is there anything else? What they want is the Jewish part. GRODZINSKY: I told you that most of our trade was 80 to 85% Christian trade. Was, and still is to today. Even though I love the Jews, I don't want to make a living from them. HUBSCHMAN: But, most of your social life is with the Jews? GRODZINSKY: With Jewish people, right. What is our social life here, Eleanor? GRODZINSKY: Eleanor, we want to ask you a question. If you had it to do all over again, would you come to Arizona? ELEANOR: It depends. If I had to go through what I did when I first came here, I certainly wouldn't. Now, of course, it's fine. HUBSCHMAN: What was it that you had to put up with that made you hate Arizona? ELEANOR: I missed my family and my friends from back East, of which we had many. I had little kids that I had to take care of, so I couldn't get out much. It was very difficult. Then, there was no money involved. He didn't make any money when we first came, so it was really very difficult. But, it changed. GRODZINSKY: I was telling her, she wanted to know if we had any anti-Semitism. ELEANOR: No. GRODZINSKY: Not outright, but I told her that they didn't like Jews as New Yorkers. ELEANOR: That's what they said. HUBSCHMAN: They told you that? ELEANOR: They showed it. But you don't feel that anymore - thank goodness. GRODZINSKY: No, of course not. HUBSCHMAN: So, you're both glad you're here in Arizona? ELEANOR: Now, sure. HUBSCHMAN: Hey, with a home like this, what could be better? [end of transcript]