..inte: Morris Gerst ..intr: Dorothy Pickelner ..da: 1988 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Morris Gerst April 31, 1988 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Dorothy Pickelner Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Morris Gerst Interview Pages 1 Arrival in Phoenix 1924 1- 2 Parents in furniture business 2 Graduated Phoenix Union High 1927 2- 3 Studied law privately; passed law Herman Lewkowitz Exam 1935 Arthur Davis Terence Carson 3 Military career; discharged 1947 3 Entered law practice Terence Carson George Welch Louis Schaeffer John Campo 5 Practiced civil, real estate and probate law 5- 6 Jewish merchants in early Phoenix Korricks Diamonds Gold family Karp Family Goldbergs Sylvan Ganz 6 Segregated high schools Phoenix Union High Carver High 7 Classmates Barry Goldwater Bob Goldwater Harry Rosenzweig Anna Rosenzweig Bea Miller Josephine Straus Blanche Friedman 7 Hebrew Men's club formed mid 30's Milton Sachs Ben Cooper 7 Yom Kippur night dance Herman Lewkowitz Charlie Korrick 8 President B'nai Brith 1935-1936 Blanche Friedman Ruth Edelman Grouskays 9 Married 1933; reception at Harriet Mendelowitz Westward Ho Rabbi Horowitz 10 Children Roberta Feig Stephen Kenneth 10-11 Temple Beth Israel; Beth El Rabbi Krohn Rabbi Jaffa 12 Jewish Community Council 12 Phoenix Bikkur Cholim Morris Meckler Benjamin Goor Louis Wahl 12 Council of Jewish Women 13 Jewish Social Service Florence Frank 14 Directed plays; minstrel show Brenda Meckler Orpheum Theater Will Rogers Eddy Cantor Harold Marks Barnett Marks 16 Early leadership of B'nai B'rith Herman Lewkowitz Barnett Marks I. J. Lipsohn Phil Ra'mon David Goldberg Ben Funk Sam Cohn 17 Cattle raising Spitalny Grouskays 17 Prominent families Diamonds Korricks Goldwaters Straus 17-18 Masque of the Yellow Moon Cordell Perkins 18 High school rivalries Morris Gerst Interview Good morning. This is Dorothy Pickelner. I am at the home of Morris Gerst at 317 West Coronado, Phoenix, Arizona. We are making this tape for the Arizona Jewish Historical Society to get some ideas of how people lived in the earlier days of this community. PICKELNER: Good morning, Morrie. GERST: Good morning. PICKELNER: Would you please tell us how and when and why you arrived in Arizona. GERST: I came here with my mother from New York City, arriving in Phoenix on November 15, 1924. PICKELNER: Was your father and family with you? GERST: My father and brothers followed about six weeks later, remaining in New York to close up a business. PICKELNER: Can you tell us where you lived and how you got settled into Arizona and what your father did for a living? GERST: Well, initially, we rented property first on North 3rd Street and then on North 8th Avenue until the folks built a little home. But we came here ostensibly for my mother's health, which proved to be not as bad as she had been led to believe, thank goodness. After a good rest and my re-entry into high school here, the folks entered into the furniture business. PICKELNER: Where was that, Morrie? GERST: It was on West Van Buren, the 500 block on West Van Buren. They entered into that business in 1925. While going to school my brother and I helped in the business after school. PICKELNER: That's interesting. Did your family continue in that business all the time they were here? GERST: They continued in business until, well, first my father died in 1935. My mother continued in the operation of the business until 1942 when she sold out to the owners of what was then known as Barrows Furniture Company. PICKELNER: Well, that's very interesting. Morrie, where did you go to school and how old were you when you came? GERST: Well, I was a high school sophomore when I arrived in Phoenix. I then entered Phoenix Union High and graduated in 1927. Thereafter, I went to Phoenix College and completed a pre-law class there with every Intention of going on to law school. However, by that time, the Great Depression hit Phoenix real bad and I had to continue my law studies privately. PICKELNER: That's most interesting. With whom did you read law? GERST: Well, I worked for about two and a half years in the office of Herman Lewkowitz clerking for him and at the same time studying. I then entered into a very intensive study routine with Arthur Davis who was in somewhat the same commission, that is studying law privately for entry into the Arizona practice of law. PICKELNER: Were these clerkships? GERST: Yes, with Herman Lewkowitz it was. I then took an intensive course of study with Terence Carson, a very well known and established attorney in Phoenix, considered a foremost Constitutional law authority, taking the bar exam in 1934 and being admitted to practice after passing the exam in February of 1935. PICKELNER: That is most interesting. We haven't met people who worked so hard getting their law degree before. Well, did you open an office immediately? GERST: No. My dad having died in 1935 just before my entry into the practice, I felt obliged to help in the business, which I did along with my brother and my mother. I practiced law on a limited basis along with Arthur Davis until I entered the military service in July, 1942. PICKELNER: Tell us something about your military career, Morrie. GERST: Well, I entered as an enlisted man, having been advised by a good friend that was the thing to do, although commissions were being freely given to admitted lawyers. I then went to officer candidate school and was commissioned as a second lieutenant in February, 1943. I stayed in the service and advanced to the rank of major until July, 1947 when I was discharged into the army reserves. PICKELNER: That is interesting. And then you came back to practice law. GERST: I came back and at first I entered into practice with my old friend, Terence Carson. We were together for a couple of years and then I formed a partnership with George Welch and later formed a new partnership with Louis Schaeffer. PICKELNER: What was Mr. Welch's first name? GERST: George. This new partnership was with Louis Schaeffer and John Campo. PICKELNER: How do you spell John Campo? GERST: Campo, C-a-m-p-o. PICKELNER: Was law, as it was practiced in those days, any different than law is now. Was there a lot of it? GERST: It was very much different. To begin with, when I came to Phoenix we had a relatively small community. By the time I retired from active practice in 1975 we had a very much larger community. Witness the fact that when I entered practice in 1935 there were only three divisions of the Superior Court. When I retired in 1975 there were 40 some divisions. PICKELNER: In 1975? GERST: Yes. PICKELNER: That's wonderful. In 1975 there were how many divisions, did you say? GERST: Over 40. PICKELNER: That certainly shows you something. GERST: Well, the city had gone from about 60,000 population when I first arrived to something over a half,-million at the time of my retirement. PICKELNER: That's wonderful. GERST: When I first arrived in Phoenix we had not much more than a cow-town, a Western cow-town. Very few streets were paved curb to curb, most of them were just a narrow pavement with mud walkways beside them. There was very little residential property north of McDowell Road. Many of the prominent families lived south of McDowell, that is between McDowell Road and where the Westward Ho stands now on Fillmore Street. The Goldwaters and many others lived in that area. There were livery stables for the cowboys riding into town; there were horse troughs and hitching posts all over town. Many of the old commercial buildings in the center of town down on Washington Street and Central had wooden porches over the sidewalks. It was truly a small town. PICKELNER: It sounds very picturesque. Were there many Indians around in Phoenix then and did you contact them? GERST: Yes. There were a lot of Indians. I remember distinctly when I first arrived here finding Indians sitting on the sidewalk downtown selling little trinkets, basketry and things of that nature. PICKELNER: What type of law did you practice? What did they consist of? GERST: Well, initially I did everything, including some criminal practice, but I ended up in purely civil practice and real estate law, probate law, such as that. PICKELNER: Can you tell us something about the condition of the businessmen? What type of businesses were people in and were there many Jewish merchants? GERST: We had the usual run of business. The Korricks department store was among the more prominent ones. Diamonds which-later evolved into what is now known as Dillards. Diamonds was at 2nd Street and Washington. A number of small merchants run by the Gold family and the Karps. There were quite a number of Jewish merchants here. There was a Goldberg men's clothing store at Central and Adams. We had a prominent Jewish banker here, Sylvan Ganz, G-a-n-z. But I must say this about some of the early Jewish merchants and businessmen; They did not prominently identify themselves with any Jewish community. Some of the more prominent ones had become Christian Scientists until their death when they left instructions to be buried at a Jewish cemetery and with Jewish religious services. PICKELNER: That's most interesting. Morrie, tell about your personal life. I'm going back a little way. What was life like in the high school, which must have been very mixed in some ways? GERST: No. Our high schools were two in number in Phoenix. Segregated. That is, Phoenix Union High was all white and Hispanic, and the blacks went to Carver High south of town. There was a clear line of segregation there - blacks were not admitted into Phoenix Union at all. PICKELNER: Carver High for the blacks. Was there segregation in the general population? Did you feel it here? GERST: No. We didn't really feel it in the general population, other than the fact that the blacks were practically, entirely devoted to the manual trades, the labor force, and so forth. Although there were a couple of well-known blacks here. I remember one prominent lawyer who was black, there was a prominent black doctor, but very few in number. PICKELNER: That is interesting. Do you remember any of your classmates in both college and high school? GERST: Yes. Among my classmates were Barry Goldwater, Bob Goldwater. Harry Rosenzweig was a year ahead of me. His sister, Anna Rosenzweig was a classmate. Bea Miller, Josephine Straus, Blanche Friedman. PICKELNER: Bea Miller and -- would you repeat those again? GERST: Josephine Straus. PICKELNER: Was there much social life? GERST: I think it was just beginning, that is, among the Jewish students. I became acquainted with a couple of my classmates, that was Milton Sachs and Ben Cooper, and with them we joined with other Jewish young men to form what was known as the Hebrew Men's Club. PICKELNER: Oh, that's an interesting organization. Did it last a long time? GERST: It would be hard to say, but I would say it must have been in the mid 30's that we formed the Hebrew Men's Club. We emphasized the fact that we were interested only in social life and a good time. PICKELNER: Did you get together on any specific holidays? GERST: Oh, yes. We had regular meetings. Then our big event for each year for a number of years was the Yom Kippur night dance. It was always held at the old Temple Beth Israel building on East Culver Street. I think by the time I entered the service, in 1942, I think we must have had 40-some members. Our senior advisors at the time were Herman Lewkowitz and Charlie Korrick. PICKELNER: That's interesting. GERST: We had annual banquets. The club continued even after I entered the service, but began to peter out about the time I came back. PICKELNER: Charlie Korrick. That's interesting. Did you, as a group, do any charity work of any kind? GERST: We helped on charitable drives. There were no combined charitable fund-raising events such as you have now with the Jewish Community Center. But we helped out on drives for the Hillel organization, ORT and Hias and B'nal B'rith, these affairs in general. PICKELNER: That's interesting. You say it sort of petered out by itself in the late 40's. GERST: Yes. B'nal B'rith became the most prominent Jewish organization In town. I joined B'nai B'rith about 19 -- well, it was before I went in the service -- I'd say around 1933 or 1934. I became president of B'nai B'rith In 1935 and 1936. PICKELNER: That is very interesting. It must have helped newcomers to Arizona adjust to their new environment. GERST: Oh, yes. As a matter of fact, in the two years of which I was president we went from a membership of a little over 60 to over 140. PICKELNER: That's very interesting. Now, what about your personal life? How were the girls in town and who did you finally marry? GERST: Well, the girls with whom we ran around for awhile there and dated were Blanche Friedman, Ruth Edelman, occasionally the Grouskay girls. Then through my Temple activities I met Harriet Mendelowitz whom I married in September, 1933. PICKELNER: Was she a native Arizonan? GERST: No. She came here from Nogales. Actually, she was born In Albuquerque and then moved to Nogales with her family at an early age. Then she came to Phoenix not long before I began dating her. PICKELNER: Was that in high school? GERST: No. I had graduated high school in 1927. No, I was through with school, except for my study of law. She had to play second fiddle to my law studies, because that came first in my life. PICKELNER: How long were you engaged, or went around together? GERST: About two years. PICKELNER: Oh. Do you remember much about your wedding - was it a biggie? GERST: My wedding was in the rear yard of my mother's home over on Palmcroft, attended only by members of the family and by Herman Lewkowitz. The rabbi was Rabbi Horowitz. It was followed by a wedding dinner at the Westward Ho. PICKELNER: That was in good shape already, I mean Westward Ho? Lots of things went on there, didn't they? GERST: Oh, yes, yes. That was the center of social activities in Phoenix in those days. PICKELNER: When you came back, tell us about establishing your home. GERST: When I came back from service? PICKELNER: After you married. GERST: I came home from the service in 1947, but I purchased the home we live in today while on a pre-demarcation leave in 1946. I was on orders to go to Japan at that time, so I met my family in Phoenix, that is my wife, my daughter and two sons, and we bought this home at 317 West Coronado Road. PICKELNER: A wife, a daughter and son already. GERST: Two sons. PICKELNER: And two sons. Tell us about your family, the names of your children. GERST: Well, my daughter is the oldest one. She is Roberta; we call her Bobble. She married Leroy Feig, F-e-i-g, of Tucson, where she presently lives. She has four children. My older son is Stephen and he has two children. He was admitted to practice law in 1966 and today is a Judge of the Superior Court of Arizona. The younger boy, Kenneth, got both his master's and doctorate in chemical engineering at the University of Michigan, and resides with his wife and three children in Pasadena, California. PICKELNER: That sounds like a lovely family. Now, tell us something about the growth of Phoenix as you look back on it, about the religious life or the Jewish life in general. Was there a good feeling of cohesiveness in the community? GERST: I don't know whether I can quite answer that question, but we had a Jewish congregation, Temple Beth Israel, a Reform congregation, whose temple was at 122 East Culver Street. We also had a congregation Beth El, a Conservative congregation, whose synagogue was located at 4th Street at about Fillmore. PICKELNER: Did they later move to -- GERST: Beth El moved to 3rd Avenue and McDowell, and then still later to Glendale Avenue? PICKELNER: Yes, 13th Avenue and Glendale. GERST: Beth Israel, on the other hand, built a new temple at their present location at 9th Avenue and Flower. But, today we have, I really don't know how many congregations. I think they're over a dozen of them, altogether. PICKELNER: Throughout the East Valley and Mesa and Scottsdale and so forth. GERST: Yes. PICKELNER: Do you remember the rabbis who served in the community during those years in your temple? GERST: Some of them. We had Rabbi A. L. Krohn, K-r-o-h-n. Now, I beg your pardon. Before that there was Rabbi Jaffa, who later retired and became Rabbi Emeritus of Beth Israel. Then we tried out a couple of young rabbis. I remember clearly that we had to give one his walking papers when we found him chasing around with "shiksas" and passing bum checks all over town. PICKELNER: Well, that was quite a career. GERST: Ultimately, we got Rabbi A. L. Krohn who served us for a number of years. PICKELNER: What sort of a man was he? GERST: A very, very learned man, not only in religion, but just about everything. He taught a course in comparative religions at Arizona State University. PICKELNER: A good rounded education. Was there a good feeling, was there a cohesive community, was there a council, that sort of thing? GERST: No, not until later. I don't even remember when the Jewish Community Council was formed. PICKELNER: Wasn't it around 1950 or 1949? GERST: I was going to say the late 40's, perhaps. It had its first meeting hall at around 16th Street north of Camelback. PICKELNER: Before that, didn't they meet at the estate on North Central, near the library, you know that fancy estate that was there? Yes, I think they did. That's when I was active. Were there any activities at all to help the people in need for various reasons? GERST: There were a few old timers who formed what is known as the Phoenix Bikkur Cholim. Morris Meckler, Benjamin Goor -- PICKELNER: My father, Louis Wahl. GERST: Your father. There were several others whose names escape me right now. I also think that the Council of Jewish Women undertook some of that direct assistance program here in Phoenix, as did B'nai B'rith too. PICKELNER: Did the merchants help if people went to them for contributions? GERST: Most of them did. There were a few of them that didn't wish to be identified as such, but most of them did. That was really the only way we raised money in those days. I used to walk the streets and beg. PICKELNER: Yes, you make sort of little drives. GERST: Yes. We would be asked either for some local need or even on a national basis by national organization, and we would simply get together and walk the streets and "schnor" for the money necessary. PICKELNER: Was there any kind of organized social service? GERST: There was. To the best of my recollection, the earliest such effort was headed by Florence Frank and I think it was simply called the Jewish Social Service. Florence took care of a variety of social needs in the Jewish community, as well as adoptions by Jewish families. PICKELNER: That's interesting. That's before the Federation was formed and everything expanded. GERST: I think she continued doing her work in adoptions even after the Jewish Federation was formed. PICKELNER: Norrie, in general what kind of social life was there in Phoenix during the late 40's and early 50's and perhaps even in your high school days? Was there any way in which young people came together or where did you go for picnics and so on? GERST: Oh, yes. I mentioned the Hebrew Men's Club. Then the girls had -- I don't remember what they called themselves -- but they got together. Then the boys and the girls met together on numerous picnics. That was the principal recreational activity - picnics out in the desert and in the mountains. My parents, in the furniture business, had a couple of large trucks and I would borrow one of those and we'd all get up in the big furniture truck and go up on these desert picnics. Then, we held dances at the drop of a hat. I mentioned before the Yom Kippur night dance. we always had some organizational dance, too. The Temple Beth Israel building on East Culver was generally the site of those affairs. Then there would be dance events and dinners held by the council of Jewish Women and various congregational annual meetings or that sort of thing. PICKELNER: What about dramatics? GERST: Yes, yes. We had plays put on by one organization or another, I don't remember now, but Brenda Meckler was the director of practically all of those. As a matter of fact, she also put together and directed a large production of a minstrel show that was put on downtown at what was then known as the Orpheum Theater, in which I was chosen to be the interlocutor. PICKELNER: That was interesting. Did you have a good, big company to put it on? GERST: We had a full house. It was put on for the purpose of raising funds for certain charitable events. I don't remember the nature of them right now. PICKELNER: Did you say it was held at the Orpheum? GERST: At the Orpheum Theater. PICKELNER: This was to raise money for various charities? GERST: That's right. PICKELNER: Okay. GERST: The Chamber of Commerce used to put on a big Christmas show at what was known as the Fox Theater in those days. They had national celebrities, such as Will Rogers and Eddy Cantor and so forth up there. PICKELNER: They used to put those on at Christmastime? GERST: Yes. Then came the year when Will Rogers met his death in an airplane accident. On this occasion Will Rogers (sic) was asked to take Will Rogers place. He was sent a telegram with that question and I remember distinctly his answer. He answered back, he says, "contributions? I, nor no one else, can take the place of Will Rogers, but I'll be happy to substitute for him." PICKELNER: Who was this that you say? GERST: That was Eddy Cantor. The afternoon of the day of that production that he appeared in, Harold Marks, a local attorney, son of Barnett Marks, and I and Rabbi Krohn all went down to the Fox Theater to meet Eddy Cantor and Ted Lewis. We drove Eddy Cantor back in my car to the Westward Ho where he was staying. PICKELNER: That was an interesting experience. GERST: We had a fairly good social life in those days, even though we had a relatively small community. PICKELNER: Were there kosher butcher shops? Was there a Mr. Katz? GERST: Yes, but I don't remember when he started. He ran a kosher butcher shop. There was a Jewish bakery at, I think it was, 3rd Street and East Washington, sort of a popular meeting place for a lot of the Jewish people. PICKELNER: 3rd Street and Washington. Mostly, you people have stayed within this particular area, haven't you? GERST: Where we live now? PICKELNER: Yes. GERST: Yes, yes. We built a home in 1936 just a block from here. Then we bought this home in 1946 and have lived here for 42 years. PICKELNER: That's lovely. You were active in B'nai B'rith. Who were some of the other men in the early formation and in the early leadership? GERST: Well, the earliest in the formation of B'nai B'rith here were Herman Lewkowitz and Barnett Marks. Then, associated with them in B'nal B'rith in the early days were I. J. Lipsohn, the attorney, Phil Ramon was secretary of the lodge, David Goldberg, a jeweler, Ben Funk, Phil Cohn -- no, I beg your pardon, that's Sam Cohn, rather than Phil Cohn. PICKELNER: Was Ben Funk of the jewelers family, too? Were they in the jewelry business? GERST: They were in the jewelry business. He was not real active in B'nai B'rith, but he was a supporter all the time. PICKELNER: Morrie, weren't there a group of men interested in the cattle business? GERST: Yes, we had the Spitalny family, or at least one branch of the Spitalny family. The Grouskay family was interested in cattle raising and cattle feeding. PICKELNER: The leading families were still the Diamonds and the merchant families? GERST: The Diamonds and the Korricks, the Goldwaters, Straus. Those were perhaps the most prominent of the families here. There was a Friedman jewelry store at the corner of Central and Washington Street. That's where my old friend, Blanche Friedman, came from. Incidentally, Blanche is the one who later married Charlie Bernstein, who became a Judge of the Superior Court and later a Justice of the Arizona Supreme Court. PICKELNER: Charles Bernstein? GERST: Charles Bernstein. PICKELNER: Vaguely, I remember hearing about a great event that used to take place in Phoenix once a year called the Masque of the Yellow Moon. GERST: Oh, yes. PICKELNER: What was that? GERST: Well, it was a historical pageant that took in all of the early Arizona history, the old Western days of the cowboys and the Indians and the Spanish settlers and the Spanish conquerors, and so forth. The Masque of the Yellow Moon was a joint effort of all of the high schools in the Valley. It was produced and directed by Cordelia Perkins, a faculty member of Phoenix Union High. It actually was participated in by, I would say, thousands of students of all these high schools. It was a gala pageant in that there were lots of horses, Indians, I mean the real Indians as well as the participants. It was a very wonderful event, particularly for Easterners or visitors to our community to see a community wide event like that as well produced as it was. PICKELNER: Lots of music in it I suppose? GERST: Oh, yes, yes. It was a very beautiful thing. I participated in two of them myself. I was one of the horsemen in a troop of Cortez soldiers in one of them, I recall. It was put on at night with a lot of colored lights and so forth. PICKELNER: It must have been very exciting. GERST: Very exciting, and it's something that attracted nationwide attention, because it was such a colorful pageantry. PICKELNER: Morrie, with the segregation of schools and all, did the various schools, say, play football against each other as teams? GERST: Yes, of course. Phoenix Union had a bitter rivalry with Mesa Union High, but in those days even the Phoenix Indian School had a football team. The game with them was played by Phoenix Union on Thanksgiving Day of each year. PICKELNER: With whom? GERST: With the Phoenix Indian School. PICKELNER: Oh, that's interesting. And that was on Thanksgiving Day? GERST: Always on Thanksgiving Day each year. There were various intramural track events held each year among all of the high schools In the valley. I remember one of the rallying points for the Phoenix Union team and the student supporters was the Goldwater home, which was located directly to the north of the Westward Ho Hotel -- that's before the hotel was built, of course -but that's where the Goldwater home was located, and we all used to gather there and whoop it up. PICKELNER: There were a number of those? GERST: Oh, yes, yes, many times. PICKELNER: Well, Morrie, I think you gave us something interesting here that we hadn't heard about before. I just wanted to ask one more question. Were newcomers happily accepted when they came, like Jewish newcomers and so on, by the city as it was at that time? GERST: What was your question, Dorothy? PICKELNER: My question was, were they readily accepted by the people who lived there? GERST: Oh, I think so. As a matter of fact, I think that there was even some gentle persuasion to affiliate themselves with one congregation or another. Oh, yes. PICKELNER: Is there anything else you would like to add at this point? GERST: Not that I can think of at the moment, Dorothy. PICKELNER: Well, thank you very much, Morrie. GERST: You're welcome. PICKELNER: It is a great privilege and you've told us some things that no one else has, and I think it will be a valuable record. GERST: Well, let's put it this way. I think I have more past than future. PICKELNER: Well, we wish you many happy years. [end of transcript]