..inte:

Marry Gerstman

..intr:

Ethel Hilf

..da:

1990

..cp: 

1995.001.002.007 
The Mary and William Gerstman family, Sacaton, Arizona, July 1935.  
L-R: Mary, Ethel, William, Alfred.

..ca:

..ftxt:





INTERVIEW

WITH

MARY GERSTMAN

NOVEMBER 10, 1990

Transcriber: Nancy Smith 

Interviewer: Ethel Hilf

Log For

Mary Gerstman Interview

Pages

1 Early years and coming to Arizona

2 - 3 Early days in Phoenix

4 The early religious settings. Mr. Gerstman running for and becoming
Assistant District Attorney.

5 - 6 Encounter with Ku Klux Klan. The first synagogue and where services
were held. Celebrating Jewish holidays.

7 Mary's Parents

8 - 9 Organizations Mary belonged to. Meeting and marrying Mr. Gerstman.

10 - 11 Christian neighbors. Discussions about the ranch near Camelback
Mountain and the Hopi Indians.

12 - 14 The sisterhood. A famous trial Mr. Gerstman had. The "Judd Case."
Trying to find a job in early Phoenix.

15 - 16 General memories about friends in Phoenix. Reason for moving back
to New York.


	Mary Gerstman Interview

Ethel: This is Ethel Hilf and I am the 64-year-old daughter of Mary
Gerstman, whom I am going to interview for the Arizona Jewish Historical
Society. I, myself, was born in Phoenix, Arizona in 1926. I spent my early
childhood years there and my brother likewise was born there. Today is the
evening of Saturday, November 10, 1990 and I am now going to interview the
subject, Mary Gerstman. Mother, would you tell your name, birth date and
place of birth.

Mary: I am Mary Gerstman. My place of birth is Bialystok, Russia. My birth
date is February 18, 1903. My parents were Israel and Eva Greenberg of
Russia (Poland currently).

Ethel: How many children did they have?

Mary: They had nine children.

They came to this country by steamer. They came to the east side of New
York City and lived there all my life. I came with my husband, Bill
Gerstman, to Arizona in March, 1924, We took a little apartment in Phoenix.
I looked for a job and Bill went to Los Angeles to determine whether we
made a mistake, but we found out he liked Phoenix better. He came home. I
got a job in the Guggenheim coal mine as a bookkeeper. I had 25 girls under
me. My husband was transferring his law practice to Phoenix from New York.
When they heard he was going to be a lawyer in Phoenix, they offered me
$100 a week if I would divorce him. I said I would rather get another,
job than another husband. I don't care for your $100 a week job.

Ethel: Would you tell why they were so fearful of dad, learning that he was
a lawyer?

Mary: They were afraid to have me work for them because he was studying to
be a lawyer in Arizona and they had some trouble with the New York
Exchange.

Ethel: Mother, would you tell where some of the places you and dad lived in
Arizona?

Mary: We lived in Phoenix. We found a beautiful apartment on Willetta
Street. My husband had a beautiful office in the Fleming building as a
partner.

Ethel: Mother, would you tell what grandma and grandpa Greenberg, your
parents, did before you left New York City to go to Arizona?

Mary: My father was a very learned man. He couldn't get a job. He opened up
a luncheonette in the coke business. My mother used to make sandwiches and
bring them up to the business for him to sell. He couldn't get a job
because he only knew about the study of Gemorra.

Ethel: In those early immigrant days, where did you go to school?

Mary: I went to school at PS4 in Manhattan.

Ethel: In the later years, after your early arrival in Phoenix, where did
you and dad live until you left the state?

Mary: We lived in Phoenix in the winter and in the summertime we used to go 
to Prescott.

Ethel: When you first came with dad to Arizona, would you describe
something about the town or the communities or the neighborhoods?

Mary: When we first came to Phoenix there was no shul, there was nothing. 
There was a little bit of a Jewish community, but my husband wasn't 
interested, because they wanted him to write a prayer on Yom Kippur.
He organized a Conservative shul, he sent for a rabbi, a Rabbi Dow. He
organized a shul on 4th Street in Phoenix. A board and a butcher, so they
shouldn't have to go for their meat anywhere else. He organized the first
Conservative Jewish congregation in Phoenix. It was under the direction of
Rabbi Dow on 4th Street in Phoenix. We were very active in the sisterhood.
When he organized the first shul, he became the first president of the
Temple Beth Israel in Phoenix.

Ethel: When you first got there in those early years, what was the city
like? How many Jewish families there were, etc.

Mary: When we first came to Phoenix, there were only about 7 or 8 Jewish
families. The place was filled with Indians. They used to tell my husband
Bill to take off his hat and he would say "I'm a Jew". They would say, "No,
take off your hat, we want to see if you have horns on your head."

Ethel: Do you recall any of the early Jewish family names of that time?

Mary: Mr. & Mrs. Zeitlin, Mr. & Mrs. Citron and Mr. & Mrs. Goodman. , I
also had many friends in the sisterhood. Among them was Mrs. Ben Lando.

Ethel: Do you recall anything about the type or style of, buildings or
homes when you came to Phoenix?

Mary: They had Spanish style homes. Adobe with red tile roofs.

Ethel: Can you tell us anything about the social life in those early years?

Mary: We were very busy working for the sisterhood of the Conservative
Jews. Mrs. Smith and Mrs. Zeitlin used to come and pick me up and take me
to the meeting. They were very active trying to develop a good community.
Mrs. Lando became my good friend till the day she died. We corresponded
even after I moved to New York.

Ethel: What were your relationships with the non-Jews in your community?

Mary: We had a very good relationship with Judge Martin T. Phelps. He asked 
my husband to become an Assistant District Attorney.

Ethel: I remember when dad first ran for office. , He was the' first Jew in
politics to run for office in Phoenix. I remember the Ku Klux Klan burning
a cross on our lawn when we lived out on that ranch. Do you remember? Where
did we live on the ranch? Do you remember? It was out in the desert not
far from Camelback, it's now the Camelback Inn. We were in the orange
groves there and I remember the night they ran with torches around the 
building and I was so scared. Though I am not the interviewee, I want to 
add my own experience.

I was the only Jewish child among 2,000 students at Phoenix High. When I
was in the second grade, I was practically terrorized by a group of kids
who would lay in wait for me and pull my jacket and throw me, to the
ground. They would be yelling at me that I killed Christ and finally I
began to cut school. I played hooky until the school informed my parents.
Then my parents greeted me and said, "Darling where have you been?" I said,
"In school, mommy," and they said "No, you weren't in school." I burst into
tears, I admitted I had been playing hooky, and I finally admitted why. I
told them that I was scared to go to school and what these six or seven
children were doing to me. My mother went to every family and put a stop to
it. You spoke to them. remember my saying that I didn't kill anybody, who
was Christ and you explained the myth. I remember those days.
I know that you spoke already about the beginnings of Jewish life, how dad
brought the first rabbi from El Paso, and how he brought the first kosher
butcher. Where were the services held originally?

Mary: On 4th Street in Phoenix.

Ethel: If I recall dad telling me, he helped to purchase a church building 
and have it properly changed into synagogue. Do you remember where that was 
located?

Mary: On 4th Street.

Ethel: Was there anyone else of the early leaders that you can remember?
Did we have a Hebrew school?

Mary: We had a Talmud Torah for the children.

Ethel: I would like to ask you about the very early religious life in the
community and how it differed from today. For example, how did you
celebrate the services and the holidays?

Mary: When we had Passover, I would pull down the shades so the gentiles
and neighbors wouldn't know that we were having Seder. I would draw all the 
shades, and my children would sit around in the early evening to watch the 
Seder in order to understand what was going on.

Ethel: Mother, what are your first memories of being Jewish? How was the
religion celebrated at your home and so forth?

Mary: My father was very Orthodox. In fact, he was (unidentifiable). He
used to gather all the nine children around the table on Saturday and we
would all sing (unidentifiable). We had to be home for dinner, regardless.
Even if the boys wanted to go to baseball, we had to go home for the sabbat.

Ethel: In those earlier days, was there anything different about the way
you celebrated bar mitzvahs, weddings and so forth?

Mary: When we had an occasion to celebrate a bar mitzvah, my parents used
to take me, I was only five years old, to Bath Beach from the east side so
I would know what a Jewish bar mitzvah was. So, I endured the bar mitzvah
and enjoyed the party with the adults.

Ethel: Could you describe the role of grandma or grandpa in those early
days in observances.

Mary: Well, of course, mother and father had a different job. When everyone
went to the shul, all the women would gather around my mother because she
knew every word she was reading and she explained everything to the women
gathered around her. What she was saying and what they were doing in shul
so they would understand what was going on in the (unidentifiable).

Ethel: Would you tell how later her role in the home for the aged rabbis
and how the books were buried with her?

Mary: My mother and father had a grocery store later on and everybody in
the neighborhood loved my mother. She was not only a grocery woman but she
was a nurse and a teacher. Everybody who was sick used to call on her to
nurse them or a sick child.

Ethel: And about that home for the aged rabbis?

Mary: Seven rabbis came from the home for the aged on east Broadway to give
her a eulogy. They said that she used to dress the women who died. She
would take the three dollars that she used to collect and give it to the home
of the aged. So they came, when she died, to show their respect for the woman
who, although she was poor, took care of her Jewish charities.

Ethel: If I'm not wrong, I seem to recall dad or you saying how many
religious books were buried with her.

Mary: I don't remember.

Ethel: Could you describe any of the early Jewish organizations to which
you belonged?

Mary: I went to downtown Talmud Torah and it was there we organized a
Zionist organization. In fact, they sent two nurses to Palestine from the
Hadassah, from our little group. They were needed so badly in Israel. Our
Zionist organization, we were only a group of girls from the class, we
studied Hebrew and we had to come every day after high school and do our
homework just like you would in an English class.

Ethel: Now, mother, I am going to get very personal and ask you when you
were married and a little about where you met dad and the courtship.

Mary: I met dad in the country on my way to a hotel for a visit to see my
sister. She said, "I want you to meet a young man here." He was having
breakfast, so he invited me to breakfast, but I had already eaten. He said,
"Then come and take a walk with me." We took a walk for three hours! That's
how we fell in love.

Ethel: When were you married?

Mary: On August 16, 1924.

Ethel: Was there anything special you would like to add about the wedding,
the time or the location?

Mary: I was married in the shul and we had to wait till darkness came. In
August, the days were very long.

Ethel: I am asked by people about anti-Semitism as I grew up. I related
some of the incidents. I might add that I am now a high school teacher of
American history and government and I often use those early incidents to
help explain matters of prejudice and how children's relationships can
affect each other in the community stemming from my own personal
experience. Can you recount any unusual, either funny or sad, stories about 
your life in Phoenix past or any anecdotes?

Mary: When Ethel was a year old she got typhoid fever from the milk from
the neighbor's cow. I had to call different doctors because they refused to
come to the house when they heard that she had some disease.

I called Dr. Jordan, and he came. He rolled up his sleeve and said, "She's
got typhoid fever and has a 105 degree temperature and we have to put ice
cubes down her body to get her fever down." He didn't want to hear any
stories about my calling other doctors. He was a wonderful doctor who took
care of her. I had to boil the sheets and take care of her. She was so
sick.

Ethel: You mentioned a good Irish neighbor who helped you.

Mary: At that time, one of our neighbors from Grand Avenue found out that 
Ethel was very sick. I was a young mother. She would boil a bottle of 
Listerine, and then wash her hands and mouth with the Listerine so she could 
come into the house even though Ethel was so sick. The neighbor came in and 
asked, "What can I do for you?"

Ethel: So the neighbor is partly responsible for my being alive to
interview you today? What did you say when I was born, about your former
boss asking you what you would like as a gift? That was rather funny.

Mary: When Ethel was born I worked for a man named Jerry Doyle. He had a 
hardware and furniture store. He asked me, "What would like me to give your 
daughter for a gift."' I said, "A piano." He had a square piano over there. 
He said, "What do you want a piano for?" I said, "Because, I want her to love
music, I want her to hear music." My husband only had one hand and he played 
a waltz for her every single day. I knew that she would love music all her 
life.

Ethel: Were there any other funny anecdotes or any other stories?

Mary: Oh yes. We lived in the summertime on a ranch outside of Phoenix. One
day, we ran out of bread and food, particularly bread. I got on a horse and
I went to Scottsdale. My husband, Bill, met me coming back and he said, 
"What are you doing on the horse?" I said, "To get a piece of bread for your 
children. For Alfred and for Ethel."

Ethel: Can you relate any of the early anecdotes that involved the Indians
or the reservations,

Mary: Yes. Bill had a friend who was a doctor on one of the Indian
reservations. Bill used to take us to visit him. One friend wanted to go
along to get some grapefruit. When she came with us, she went to go pick
grapefruit and left us in the grove with the people who were neighbors of
the Indians. Later we went looking for her. We didn't know what happened to
her. We weren't afraid of the Indians. They just wanted to see Bill's
horns. Judge Phelps helped Bill to become Assistant District Attorney under
Jennings. Bill became very good friends with Judge Phelps and then became
Assistant D.A. under Jennings. Bill was always interested in the Indians so
he always had his doctor friend take him out to the Indian (Hopi)
reservation. He would enjoy being with them and they would ask him
questions and he would answer them just as if they were American children.

Ethel: As I understand, they came, in time, to trust him very much.

Mary: They used to ask the Indian doctor, "Bring your friend to tell the
stories."

Ethel: What was there in that Phoenix of so long ago, that you would like to 
bring back if you could?

Mary: I still have such a love for Phoenix. My grandson Peter and his wife
got married and moved to Phoenix to live. He became an attorney. I wish I
was back there. Peter is located in the Fleming Building. That's where Bill 
was located. His name is Peter Gerstman and he is doing very well. His wife 
is also a lawyer, They built a home one mile from the temple so they could 
live near the Jewish community.

Ethel: Do you have any memoirs?

Mary: I had a friend named Mrs. Ben Lando from the sisterhood. She
corresponded with me till she died. She was a very dear friend of mine from
the sisterhood of the Phoenix temple. I really loved her. Her husband was
also active in the temple.

Ethel: You have some photographs of Phoenix. I know we gave Peter many of 
the early pictures from the early days in Phoenix. Do you have anything on 
hand now?

Mary: I had a whole book of clippings and pictures of Phoenix. I gave them
to Peter when he and his wife moved to Phoenix so he would be able to refer
to the life in Phoenix. I want to tell you that my husband was very active. 
There was a trial case called the "Judd Case". It was Winnie Ruth Judd's 
case. This was when he was the Assistant District Attorney. She killed her 
friend and buried her in the trunk. It was a well known case in the United 
States. She (Winnie Ruth Judd) tried to take her to Los Angeles but the 
blood came out of the trunk. That was how they caught her.

Ethel: What was the name of the main newspaper at that time? 

Mary: Arizona Republic. It still is. When I came to Phoenix, I wanted a job 
as a bookkeeper. I saw a job for the department store. They asked "What is 
your religion?" I wrote "Hebrew." Mr. Collin, from Diamond's, said he couldn't 
accept me because I was Jewish. I went to a friend of mine in the real estate 
business and told them that I had heard that there was no anti-Semitism here. 
He called up Mr. Collin up and told him that what he had done was not right. 
If he wanted a bookkeeper, he had the best bookkeeper here that he could get 
regardless of religion. Well, I got a job with Mr. Atwater from the linen supply. 
I worked for him for seven years. He was a Scotsman. When I applied with him for 
a job, he said, "I'm a Scotsman and you're a Jew and your husband is lawyer. How 
do I know how a Scotsman will get along with a Jew?" I said, "I'll tell you what, 
I will work for you for two weeks without salary. If you don't find me satisfactory, 
I'll go home. You don't have to pay me a dime." He said, "On the basis of that, you 
can have the job." He had seven trucks. He was a very big business man. Later, during 
the war, they couldn't get linen for the Diamond's department store. I told him, 
"Atwater, if they come to you for a car load of linen, don't give them any." He said, 
"Why, you're Jewish and they're Jewish?" I told him, "Don't give them any." I told him 
how they didn't want to give me a job because I was Jewish when I first came here. He 
called Mr. Collin and told him that if he wanted linen from the Atwater Linen supply 
he had to come down to the shop and talk to him. When they came, Mr. Atwater brought 
me in and had me explain to Mr. Collin what I told Mr. Atwater. I told Mr. Collin, 
"Mr. Collin, you were working for a Jew, Mr. Diamond, and you refused to give a job 
to a Jew. Now you're coming to a Scotsman for the linen." I told Mr. Collin that Mr. 
Atwater asked me to help you get the linen. Mr. Atwater asked Mr. Collin what he had 
to say to that? Does a Jew help out one another? Mr. Collin said "I'm sorry, I was 
mistaken and didn't realize that I should be so gracious."

Ethel: In closing, do you feel you would like to give your grandson, Peter
Gerstman's business address in case they want to talk to him to see some of
the early pictures?

Mary: Yes, I would be delighted. He has an office in the Feldman building. I 
don't know his address at home. He has a beautiful home near the Temple. Just
call Peter Gerstman and he will give you some of the pictures I gave him.

Ethel: He has some of the clippings of my father's early career in Arizona
and some of the pictures of those early, early days in Phoenix. I am now closing 
with my mother, Mary Gerstman, whom I have interviewed to try to share with you 
and others, some of her early experiences. Do you want to add something?

Mary: I want to say that we had a very small group when we organized the
Conservative shul. They were very active. Mrs. Zeitlin was very active in
the shul, and she and Mrs. Citron used to come and pick me up to go to the
meetings. My husband had the car and I had no way to go to the meeting.
They saw to it that I could get everywhere I needed. Mrs. Smith was
wonderful too. I believe Mrs. Smith is dead now, but Mrs. Smith and Mrs.
Zeitlin deserve to be honored for everything they had done for the
temple.

Ethel: Last question. Why did you and dad ultimately leave Arizona?

Mary: I felt it was time for you to get back to your immediate family and be 
among Jews. We lived isolated among Christians in Phoenix and we wanted you 
to know more about the Jewish life. So, we took you back to New York where 
we moved to the mountains. We still did not like New York city but we lived 
in (unintelligible) County in New York. We always lived in the country. We 
loved Phoenix and we loved the country. We were sorry we couldn't live there 
any longer. We wanted the children to have a Jewish life.

Ethel: You did ultimately go back several times to pay visits. Dad's
picture is now hanging with the other honored people in the past of that
temple.

Thank you.

		[end of transcript]