..inte: Sylvia Diamond ..intr: Dorothy Pickelner ..da: ..cp: 1993.036.270 Wartime Passover seder, Culver Street Temple Beth Israel, 1945. ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Sylvia Diamond Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Dorothy Pickelner Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Sylvia Diamond Interview Pages 1 Parents' names Joseph Davis Bessie Ochakoff 2 Arrived in Phoenix 1936 3 Went to Temple Beth Israel Rabbi Krohn Eleanor Spector 4 Moved to 21 Orange Drive Marian Feffer Betty Spitalny 4 Sisterhood Helen Diamond Carrie Lewkowitz Rose Diamond 5-6 Seder for servicemen Mrs. Gold, Sr. 7 Camelback Inn Jack Benny Herman Lewkowitz 7-8 Three children Byron Jerry Sharon 8-9 Husband's work; public relations, Arizona Beverage real estate, insurance Journal 9-13 Husband's involvement in the U.J.A. Jewish community B'nai B'rith ADL Committee 12-13 Speaker at liquor convention Jack Stewart 13-14 Anti-Semitism Phx. Country Club Biltmore West High School Central High 14 Servicemen who moved to Phoenix Reuben Schneider 15 Summer heat 16 Cultural life in the 30's Mrs. Linde Leonard Bernstein Eleanor Spector Rose Rosenberg Bert Goldman 18 Council of Jewish Women Alma Korrick Blanche Korrick 18-19 Social events Hebrew Men's Club 20 Indian women downtown 21-22 Social service work 22 ASU; Tempe Normal 23 Phoenix College 23 Beth El/Beth Israel 24 Phoenix as an agricultural community 25 Start of the Phoenix Symphony Rabbi Krohn 25-26 Sick people who came to Phoenix Nellie Diamond Sunnyslope 26-29 Young marrieds' social life South Mountain Carrie Lewkowitz Martin Kulick Abe Korrick Milton Ganz Westward Ho American Kitchen 30-31 Mask of the Yellow Moon Miss Perkins 31 Consecration of new temple 32-33 Meetings at old temple 34 Carolyn Lesem Dorothy Herzberg Mrs. Rosenzweig Sylvia Diamond Interview INTERVIEWER: The date is February 13, 1989 and we are at my home at 1808 West Citrus Way where I'm interviewing Sylvia Diamond for the Arizona Jewish Historical Society. Sylvia lives at 6526 Place de Valencia in Phoenix, Arizona. She's retired. She was born March 29, 1911 in Chicago, Illinois. She arrived in Arizona in 1936 from Portland, Oregon. The name of her parents were -- Davis was the last name. SYLVIA: My father's name was Joseph. My mother's name was Bessie. Her maiden name was Bessie Ochakoff, 0-c-h-a-k-o-f-f. Her education was that she attended Northwestern University for two years. Her work experience was as follows: After her husband's death she became the publisher of the Arizona Beverage Journal for 15 years. It was a great success, I might add. In the community she volunteered and was affiliated with many organizations, among them a volunteer at the Red Cross. She was a member of Temple Beth Israel and a member of the Sisterhood and the Council of Jewish Women. She was at one time president of Brandeis University Women and is still a docent of the Heard Museum. INTERVIEWER: Sylvia, would you tell us something about your background and your parents' background, and can you tell us how and when you arrived in Phoenix and who were you with, that is, was it just your husband or was there a family already? SYLVIA: Well, my father arrived in Chicago from Russia, I don't know the date. My mother arrived from another section of Russia. They met in Chicago and were married. Unfortunately, my mother died when I was five and my sister was three. I left Portland (sic) when I was about 19 and went to work in Portland, Oregon and met my husband in Portland. Shortly after we were married -- he had lived in Phoenix for a year or two before doing public relations work and had been In Portland, Oregon doing the same type of work. He spoke about Phoenix so much that I finally said one day, "If you like it so much, why don't we go there?" So I arrived in Phoenix about six months after we were married in Portland, Oregon. We arrived in 1936 when the community was a bit smaller. We lived on Culver and 3rd Street where the freeway is presently going to be going through - through our house actually. There were a lot of Jewish people in the community, I thought, and most of them were winter visitors who lived in the apartment house in Phoenix, which was on 3rd Street and Roosevelt. If you had means you could stay there and if they had an apartment you could stay there. INTERVIEWER: Sylvia, that's very interesting. Did you get to meet the community, did you meet Jewish people right away? Did you become friends and affiliated and so... SYLVIA: Well, when I first came here I didn't know anyone. We lived at a hotel until we found an apartment. After we found an apartment the first thing we did was go to temple. The night we went to temple Rabbi Krohn was visiting and he gave his first sermon that night before he was engaged to work as a member of our temple. He was more or less on trial, evidently. As I recall he was passing through and gave a guest sermon. INTERVIEWER: Was that at Temple Beth Israel? SYLVIA: It was at Temple Beth Israel on Culver Street. We lived on 3rd Street and Culver and this was on 1st Street and Culver, so, of course, we walked over. There was a street car line on 3rd Street if we wanted to go to town, but most of the time we walked. I did, anyway. So I became acquainted with Rabbi Krohn and Mrs. Krohn, who was not too well. We would go to services on Friday night. Mrs. Krohn was a very bad asthmatic and sometimes she would say, "Sylvia, whoever's new in town --" and she'd tell me if there was someone new at temple that night and ask me to introduce them around to the rest of the people in the temple. INTERVIEWER: Very nice. Did you continue to be friends with those people? Do you remember who any of them were? SYLVIA: Well, I remember when Eleanor Spector and her husband came to Phoenix. I met them at temple. Then, after we lived in this little apartment for awhile we purchased a home and wanted to settle down and have a family. So, we moved in the neighborhood we thought was a good place to raise children, because it had a goodschool system INTERVIEWER: Where was that? SYLVIA: We moved out to 21 Orange Drive which was way out in the country on Camelback -- actually two blocks north of Camelback Road -- and Central. One of my close neighbors was Marian Feffer. When we would go to temple for a luncheon, for Sisterhood or Council of Jewish Women, everything centered around the temple. So I would pick up people en route to the temple. Marian Feffer and I always went together because she lived on Colter and I lived on Orange Drive, so we were a couple blocks away from one another. Also, we'd pick up so many people en route. One of my good friends was Betty Spitalny, who lived at 21 West Camelback Road at the time. I knew exactly where she moved because I recognized her son standing outside - that was a Spitalny. He was a little boy then but he had to be a Spitalny. I recognized him. Let's see. There were other friends. This was a small community. INTERVIEWER: About how many Jews do you think there were, or how many were there in the temple? SYLVIA: I don't remember how many Jews there were, but when I became a member of the temple Sisterhood I think I was No. 60 member. I think Helen Diamond, if I'm not mistaken, was president -- INTERVIEWER: Of the Sisterhood? SYLVIA: Of the Sisterhood, yes. -- and later Rose became -- let's see, I think Carrie Lewkowitz was also president and then Rose Diamond was also president. INTERVIEWER: Helen Diamond and Rose Diamond? SYLVIA: Helen was president first, and then, I think, I don't know if Carrie came in between both of them, but I remember that Rose Diamond was also president. INTERVIEWER: And Carrie Lewkowitz? SYLVIA: Yes. Oh, there were many members. But I also remember the war. INTERVIEWER: Tell us about that. SYLVIA: Well, there were many men that were stationed in and around on the desert and many of them were from what was called the Eastern Seaboard (?) Division and they were doing infiltration practice, which was with live ammunition on the desert. It was Pesach. We were at the old temple and we made up our minds - a group of us - whether we were members of the Sisterhood or temple, it didn't make any difference. We all got together and we said we were going to have a seder every night for eight nights until we serviced all the boys that were stationed away from here, and stationed here, of course. But most of them were stationed out on the desert and some of them came as far as 180 miles. INTERVIEWER: They came? SYLVIA: Oh, they were brought here in trucks. When they came we had to watch very carefully, because some of them fainted away from the heat. If they were given salt tablets that was the worst thing to give them, because they were so dehydrated all they needed was water Sometimes when they started to drink the wine, we had to watch them. They were so thirsty they would drink what was at hand, so we had to see that they didn't drink too much wine. Incidentally, the Pesach seder was made by all the women. So we were with the gefilte fish and we made turkey instead of chicken. I remember Mrs. Gold, Sr. who was so instrumental in doing the cooking. we had a fresh seder every night with another group of young men. The tables were cleared, we had fresh flowers on the table - I know - I arranged them every day. We had the complete seder with the matzoh balls, the whole traditional everything, and took care of the young men. We became very well acquainted with them. I also remember my husband, Irving, who was active in temple. I don't know with what organization -- if it was with B'nai B'rith or U.J.A. -- he helped place the young men in the community with families. INTERVIEWER: For the holidays? SYLVIA: For Yom Tov, for the holidays. If there was a young girl, particularly, in the family he would take care of them first. I know years later we ran into a young couple who told us that he'd married a gal whom he had sent to the seder, which was very interesting. I don't remember the person's name There were many interesting incidents. I remember one incident that was very interesting, I thought. It's worth relating. The Camelback Inn, as you know, didn't like Jews. So, many people, if you were an outstanding person in the community in their particular field, were allowed to become guests. Jack Benny came here one year and stayed at Camelback Inn. I remember Herman Lewkowitz was active In B'nai B'rith at the time and he wrote a very nice letter to Jack Benny telling him the situation. We were chaperoning - Herman Lewkowitz and Carrie and Irving and I - were chaperoning a dance for the servicemen that was commonly held. It was held downtown in a very large area. So we were the host and hostesses. We greeted people as they came in and in came Jack Benny to entertain the boys or just to look around. I don't think he entertained - he just made an appearance. When he was introduced to Herman Lewkowitz he simply said, "I moved." That was the only expression he used. Herman had sent him the letter on his particular stationery of whatever organization it was, but I remember the expression, he said, "I moved." I thought that was quite interesting. INTERVIEWER: Very interesting indeed. Tell about your family, your children. SYLVIA: In what way? INTERVIEWER: How many do you have? SYLVIA: I have three children. My one son is Byron and he was bar mitzvahed in the old temple on Culver. Then I have Jerry who was bar mitzvahed at the present temple, and then I have a daughter who is Sharon. She was confirmed. She didn't want to go through the bat mitzvah situation. They're all three living here -- no, one is living here. Sharon lives here. Byron lives in California and Jerry lives in New York. INTERVIEWER: Are they all married? SYLVIA: Byron is married -- I don't know if he's married or not. He's in the process of getting a divorce. Jerry is not married and Sharon is divorced. I have one granddaughter - Sharon's daughter is Debbie, who was confirmed at temple. Then I have two grandchildren living in Chicago that are Byron's children from a previous marriage. My one grandson, Frank, was born in Phoenix. They now reside in Oak Park. I have a granddaughter who's Lisa - these are Byron's two children who go to school at Champagne now. Debbie, Sharon's daughter, goes to school in Flagstaff. INTERVIEWER: That's interesting. SYLVIA: Sharon lives here but she's divorced. INTERVIEWER: Now, when you arrived in Phoenix, did your husband have any connections, any business connections or anything to start making a living? How did you go about that? SYLVIA: Well, Irving had done some public relations work here and he had worked with - I've forgotten the name now, but he had done public relations. At that time they were interested in building housing. It was before they were trying to build a community, they were interested in building housing. He did NCR, or NRC, or one of the federal organizations - he had done public relations for them, and what they would do is build a model house. He would go to the people that did the building and the contracting and the hardware people and the lumber people and get the advertising for them. First, he would do the public relations, then sell the advertising for the newspaper here. I don't know - it was before my time. So, he had a lot of contacts in the community when we came here. He decided to start this publication called the Arizona Beverage Journal, because it was shortly after liquor became legal and there was a need for it in the community. He knew a lot of people and he started from scratch. We worked together a little bit at the time. That's how he started his publication. Later, he became involved in real estate and insurance, which was an outgrowth for him, because he had been in the insurance business in his early life. INTERVIEWER: Now, did Irving become involved in the community, too, besides that? SYLVIA: Oh, yes. Irving became very involved in Jewish community life besides the life in the liquor industry. But In the Jewish community he was president of U.J.A. for awhile and, as a side light, there was a man in the community who was -- he always looked like Irving and I'll tell you why in a moment, because my husband used to give him all his clothes. He was built the same way. He used to sell newspapers on the corner, except the only difference between my husband and he was that he wore a straw hat. He was meticulously groomed and always was clean and neat with a straw hat, and he sold newspapers for a living. He was always broke. INTERVIEWER: Downtown? SYLVIA: Yes, on Central and Washington, and on Central Avenue towards Adams. People would buy newspapers from him all the time. There weren't any boys that sold newspapers. He came up to see Irving when he was head of UJA because he used to dispense money to people in need. He said he had a sister who would save his money for him and -- they had been left some money -- I don't remember the man's name -could Irving tide him over until he got the money from his sister? And would Irving write a letter to his sister saying that he was broke? So, he used to come up to his office and Irving would write the letter periodically and his sister always sent the money. She sent it to Irving's office - Irving took care of his money. He was broke one year and had written again for money and his sister hadn't answered the letter and he finally left town. The letter arrived two weeks after the poor man left town. He was so broke he went somewhere else to sell newspapers. That's all he ever did. INTERVIEWER: Did you remember his name? SYLVIA: I never knew his name. INTERVIEWER: Did your liquor Journal prosper? SYLVIA: It took awhile to get off the ground. INTERVIEWER: Did it cover the state or just -- SYLVIA: It covered the state. Since it was a relatively new idea, people throughout the country started publications similar to his, because prices in each state were different and laws were very, very different. They were very stringent, some of them ridiculous. Some of the federal and state laws were all different. They had to be followed. There was a price section where, in this magazine, you had the cost of a piece of merchandise and the suggested selling price of the merchandise and information of interest throughout the state and in the nation appeared in publication. INTERVIEWER: What did you find of interest? Did you find that this was a friendly community, that newcomers were accepted and so on? How did you feel about this community? SYLVIA: Well, even though I came from Portland, I came from a large city originally, which was Chicago. It's interesting to note that at that time when I would ask about certain things that I took for granted in a large community were not available here. I had trouble understanding that. The answer I would always get is, "We're full of growing pains." That was 50 years ago. Today, I still hear the same answer, "We're full of growing pains", which I thought was interesting. I made many friends, mostly through temple, and then I wanted to spread my wings and did a lot of Red Cross work. I did a lot of interviewing. I went on some Red Cross burnouts and floods, and I interviewed people and extended monies -- It wasn't monies, but that could be exchanged for monies. I found that very interesting. My husband was head of UJA for a couple of years INTERVIEWER: By that do you mean the community council? SYLVIA: Well, today it's the community council. INTERVIEWER: Today it's the federation. I think in those days it was the community council. SYLVIA: Well, yes, the gathering of monies and everything. He was active in temple. He was on temple board for a short time and then when he passed away he was on temple board again. He was president of B'nai B'rith. He was on the western region B'nai B'rith board. That was on the ADL Committee - Anti-Defamation Committee - and he was very active in that. At that time Camelback Inn -- did I tell the story about Camelback Inn, he was asked to speak there? INTERVIEWER: Yes, I think you can tell that story. SYLVIA: Well, at that time he was on the board of the Anti-Defamation League and the hotel associations for the United States had asked the liquor industry if there was someone who could speak on taxes and laws in the liquor industry and that their convention was going to be held at Camelback Inn, and would they have a guest speaker? They expected someone to come from New York. In New York they wrote back saying that the most knowledgeable man they would recommend was Irving Diamond, who was right in their midst. Would they contact him? So they contacted him. They had to have a meeting, because Irving would have liked to have spoken, but Camelback Inn didn't like Jews, so how could he speak? Well, after the meeting it was fully decided that he speak and conduct himself in such a way that we would be proud of him. And that's what he did. I found that very interesting. INTERVIEWER: Of course, later on that policy was changed. SYLVIA: Only after Marriott bought it - not before. INTERVIEWER: Wasn't Jack Stewart still there? SYLVIA: Well, It was his mother, really, and he, too, but I think not until Marriott's bought it. It might have been relaxed a little for VIP'S, but not until Marriott's purchased it. INTERVIEWER: Now, did you find that there was anti-Semitism within the community? SYLVIA: A certain amount of it in certain areas, because the Phoenix Country Club didn't allow Jews. That was where that famous story of Barry Goldwater's was - "I'm half Jewish, do I play the whole course or not?" But, Phoenix Country Club did not have Jews. There were some places that were definitely restricted, but the Biltmore was not one of them, so it was always loaded with winter visitors that were Jewish. Camelback Inn definitely was restricted. There were a couple of other places that definitely were restricted. INTERVIEWER: Did your children go to school here in Phoenix at the various high schools? SYLVIA: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Did they find life pretty free? SYLVIA: Oh, yes. INTERVIEWER: What high schools did they go to? SYLVIA: Byron went to West High. He just went to his 30th reunion this Thanksgiving. Jerry went to Central and Sharon went to Central. I don't know that they were involved in any anti-Semitism. INTERVIEWER: Did they go to Sunday School? SYLVIA: They went to Sunday School. INTERVIEWER: I was wondering -- you came in '36 which was before the war. So you saw many changes. Did you think that the fact that the men were stationed here at the various fields influenced them to come back and live here? SYLVIA: Oh, yes. Many of them came back. Reuben Schneider and his wife - he was stationed here and his wife was here, they were from New York. He still lives here. He came here after the war. I remember him, because I met them at the seder. INTERVIEWER: And you became friends? SYLVIA: Just casually, because I didn't expect -- then I saw them years later. So, they were married when he was in service, but they came back here to live. I think they had all their children here. There were many families here, many people that met and decided to come back here after the war. INTERVIEWER: A number of people have spoken about those years and, you know, you worked with the boys and on Friday night how you took them in and all that. Rose Rosenberg spoke about it. Now, what did you do in the summertime when it was so very hot? SYLVIA: We schvitzed (?) a lot. Well, I used to stay here, because when I first came to Phoenix I saw a lot of women, I thought, dancing around with married men and I said, "I'm not going to do that. I'm going to stay right here." But, after a few years, we had what they call today the swamp cooler. on humid days it was unbelievably hot, so you just suffered. Later, one year, when my children were older - I think 8 and 10 -- well, several years later -- I had three children at that time, we went to the coast. We rented a house in Long Beach for a month and I thought we were very affluent if I could afford to go out of town for a month. We rented a house for a month. INTERVIEWER: Was it true that people slept outside? SYLVIA: Oh, yes. INTERVIEWER: In wet sheets? SYLVIA: Oh, yes. I didn't, but when we lived on Orange Drive there used to be a house down the street and on the roof was what looked like a chicken coop to me, because it was a screened porch on top of the roof. That's where they would sleep. This girlfriend of mine who was born in Phoenix said they used to go out in the yard and she and her girlfriend would take ice water and a whisk broom and wet the sheet down. She'd get in the sheet -- they'd toss for who would get under the sheet first -- then they'd take another sheet and one would be underneath and they'd take ice water and whisk it across the top sheet and then the second one would run in. INTERVIEWER: Very, very interesting. Was there any cultural life in the 30's when you came? Was there concerts? Did you know Mrs. Linde? SYLVIA: Mrs. Linde lived in my neighborhood and she was a darling lady. INTERVIEWER: Tell about her. SYLVIA: She was originally from the University of Illinois, I think, and she used to arrange concerts when she was a college student. She was a lovely lady. She arranged concerts at the Phoenix Union High School. We had season tickets. She also arranged some children's programs, I don't remember which one, but I have a picture of my son with one of the personalities or something at one of the children's concerts -- Jerry. She would arrange all sorts of programs, but one of the most interesting things -- I think it's after Mrs. Linde, she didn't have anything to do with this -- when Leonard Bernstein came to town. That was the most exciting phase -- INTERVIEWER: I believe that's when Hadassah brought the Israel Symphony and Leonard Bernstein. SYLVIA: Oh, my gosh. I was crazy. I couldn't wait to get tickets. It was held in the gym, because the gym held more people than the hall. INTERVIEWER: I was president of Hadassah at the time. SYLVIA: How exciting! INTERVIEWER: We were the ones who -- Eleanor Spector and -- SYLVIA: Oh, Eleanor Spector did a wonderful job. INTERVIEWER: Rose Rosenberg and Bert Goldman and I, we arranged that concert. SYLVIA: That was so exciting. That was the most exciting event. I was thrilled to the tips of my fingers. INTERVIEWER: That was true. That was one of the greatest nights any of us have ever experienced. SYLVIA: And, of course, Mrs. Roosevelt was here when Mr. Conweller -- what was his first name? INTERVIEWER: Yes. SYLVIA: He was the one that was chairman of the concerts for the temple and he would arrange to have speakers and guest speakers come. I remember Mrs. Roosevelt was here. INTERVIEWER: Yes. SYLVIA: There were many other outstanding people, world- renowned people. He enjoyed doing it and he took charge of it most of the time, but it was sponsored through temple. INTERVIEWER: Yes, the temple had a program, but later on the Jewish Community Center also had a program. SYLVIA: It grew. INTERVIEWER: What else would you like to tell us about life in Phoenix in the early years of the 30's and 40's? SYLVIA: I think it was great fun. I didn't know any better. I learned to keep house, I learned to cook, and any time I wanted to know something I just would call one of the members of temple. INTERVIEWER: You found your social life and so on mostly -- SYLVIA: It was wrapped around the temple. And then I felt that I should spread my wings a little, and I did some volunteer work at Red Cross. INTERVIEWER: Can you tell us about the Council of Jewish Women who were active In that and what kind of work you did? SYLVIA: I don't remember the work that I did. I did something, but I don't remember what it was, to be truthful with you. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember some of the people who were very active? SYLVIA: I remember Elma Korrick, particularly, because she had charge that time of taking care of the people needing help. Most of the time it was people en route to California who needed gas, money for gas. I recall her saying that it was easier to give them gas and enough money for food for them to go on to their appointed place than to have them stay on here. INTERVIEWER: That was Blanche Korrick? SYLVIA: Elma Korrick. Blanche Korrick was a great lady who brought a lot of culture to the community. INTERVIEWER: What did you find were the social events? SYLVIA: I remember one time going to a formal from the Hebrew Men's Club. It was just before they broke up. INTERVIEWER: Tell about that. SYLVIA: We were invited to go. We were not members, but we were invited to go to the Hebrew Men's Club formal dance. The Adams Hotel had just been refurbished and we went to the Adams Hotel, had this formal dance, and everyone was so wonderful and so friendly. It was just thrilling to me, because it was a small community and everyone was very friendly. We danced and we just had a wonderful time. INTERVIEWER: Did you visit each other, was there a lot of going back and forth? SYLVIA: There was a lot of visitation, there was a lot of visiting back and forth. I used to try to have -- I always said that I felt that I should be participating in community activities and that I should be friendly to people who came in from out of town. So, Saturday night I had Saturday night get-togethers from anyone that I knew who was a stranger in the community and I'd ask three or four couples over on a Saturday night. Or Friday night after temple I'd have them over. It would always be something informal. Then we would always have - oh, after the fast, after Yom Kippur, one time at temple we used to have dances and parties after temple. I remember that Ruth Levy's daughter -- I don't remember her name -- met a young man right after the war or during the war who was in service and she married him. We all saw it at temple, because they had a dance that night and it was after Yom Kippur, or it was the night of Yom Kippur after the fast. Then, later, when they didn't have the dances I used to always have a group of people together. We'd meet at temple and then invite them over and I'd have about ten couples over and just have an evening there and have a big buffet supper afterwards, which is something we did quite regularly. INTERVIEWER: Did you mind that it was so hot in the evenings when you got together, or did you just meet outdoors or inside? SYLVIA: We, by that time, had refrigeration. We felt very important. We felt good -- not important -- about the fact that it was cooler. Yom Kippur was getting a little cooler. INTERVIEWER: Is there anything else that you remember of those early days, which is, of course, what we are interested in at this time, that impressed you, either about the community -- did it seem like a cow town? Did it seem like -- SYLVIA: I embraced the community. It could have been a cow town. I was very impressed with the fact that I saw the Indian ladies on the street on Central and Washington selling things. I was fascinated. One day I went in on a Saturday -- all the Indians would come to town -- and I'd always say, "Let's go downtown, I want to go to the variety store", because there wasn't anything of the community at that time. I'd be fascinated because the Indians would nurse their babies and walk at the same time. It was their day to come into town to shop and I actually was fascinated with them. A lot of entertaining was done in the community. I did my share of it and I loved it. Oh, I do remember -Rabbi Krohn -- someone asked me to do something in social work that I knew nothing about at the time. They wanted to know about a family, or a girl, or boy -- I don't remember. I didn't know how to go about it. Not only did he say he would help me, because I was doing this for someone else and I didn't know anything about it, he said, "I will take you." We spent a whole day looking for this particular person who needed help. INTERVIEWER: Was there any kind of a social service structure of any kind who took care of the needy and of the stranded people and so forth? SYLVIA: At the time, most of it was handled through the Council of Jewish Women. Then, when my husband, Irving, became president of what we called then the United Jewish Appeal, he felt that it should not be handled through an organization of that type, but that the entire community should be responsible for that. INTERVIEWER: Was there a social service bureau or anything like that? SYLVIA: There wasn't yet. Then, from that day on, when it was handled through UJA, after that, then a social service organization was started, but there was not one before that I know of. Then, my husband was heavily criticized because that was the death of the Council of Jewish women, really, the basics, I was told. Whether it was true or not I don't know, but that was what he was heavily criticized for, because he felt that, that's where it should belong. INTERVIEWER: In the community? SYLVIA: In the community and everyone should participate. You shouldn't just call up and say, "I'm stranded." and someone's at a poker party and say; "Well, here's ten dollars", you know, you should really do a job. INTERVIEWER: I had heard that the merchants on Washington Street, the Jewish merchants, were very good about - SYLVIA: They always helped out, and so did Barry Goldwater. They criticized him. I had to go for funds one time and that's the least attractive thing I could think of to do, and I had to ask him, and he was very nice and very helpful and committed himself. It was a very small amount, but that's all I asked him for. All the merchants on the street, and Mr. Meckler in particular -- he was a doll. There were some merchants that would help, but were not as graceful. That's the same part of life, but everyone did help. I think the merchants on Washington were the most helpful in the community. INTERVIEWER: So I have heard. Was there a college here at the time? Could the young people go to college? Was there only Phoenix College or was there ASU? SYLVIA: ASU, yes, was a school here. It was Tempe Normal. It was a school. I knew some people who had gone there many years ago. When I looked through some of his work it was quite interesting. He's dead and has been dead for many years, and I interviewed him when he was 90. He was in the first graduating class of the Normal school. He was a very nice gentleman and, before that time, he was a scout - he scouted the Indians in this area. He was in the first graduating class of Tempe Normal School. Then, later, it was about 25, 30 years ago when it became a full-fledged university. Before that it was just known as a school for teachers. INTERVIEWER: Did the Jewish children, or young people, go to Phoenix College? SYLVIA: I vaguely remember there was sort of like a high school/college -- and I don't recall -- combination. Then Phoenix College was built. Then when Phoenix College was built it was really special. It was really wonderful to think that they could attend school here, because people in more affluent families sent their children away to school. INTERVIEWER: Was there a good feeling between the people of Beth El and Beth Israel, or was there a split? SYLVIA: There was a split, but I think there was a good feeling, because I remember working at Beth El and helping them during the war. The war brought a lot of wonderful things out in people, and we helped one another and we did for one another. When we were on Culver and they were on, I think, 4th Street, then the more Orthodox were in the basement, we helped one another. I remember on certain holidays going over to Beth El and working with them and working with the army and with the boys that were stationed here. I remember one time -- you know, we used to have this social hall downtown and we lived near a group of people that were in the produce business. The honeydew melons were in season, so I said to my friend -- and I was going to work at the social center for the boys that were in service -- I said, "How about giving us some melons?" He said, "You can have all you want, but you have to cool them down. They can't eat them hot." Then I found out that what was going to be so simple became terribly involved. I had to have a truck to pick up these melons and I got the garbage people to take the melons to a storage house to store them. In the morning my husband had to go get them with a friend on a truck to take them, so I could cut the melons up to serve them to the servicemen. INTERVIEWER: That was very interesting and an interesting way of doing it. It was more an agricultural community than it is now. SYLVIA: Yes, It was an agricultural community. We once had a cooked food sale -- when you bring that up you bring back other memories-- and I had a garden during the war. I had never planted a garden, but I read instructions and I followed all the instructions. Every time someone would say to me, "You don't grow that in Arizona." I would plant it because I had this package of seeds. I had every kind of vegetable imaginable and it all grew and grew beautifully. So, there was a baked sale I could not attend and instead of baking anything I filled a big huge basket of fruit, fresh vegetables -- fresh vegetables, no fruit from my garden. They made more money on the vegetables than they did on the baked food sale. It was quite an innovation and everyone wanted to know where I got the vegetables. I bragged so much -- and passed around the vegetables to show -- that I didn't have very much for myself. INTERVIEWER: That was very interesting. Is there anything else that you remember that you would like to tell - about Irving, his business, or the community, or Rabbi Krohn - do you feel that he was a very important member of this community? SYLVIA: Yes, he was, because, incidentally for your information, he started the Phoenix Symphony and he was their first president. INTERVIEWER: That's very interesting. SYLVIA: He became a very important part of the community within a very short time. He did many things in the community, but when you mentioned it that comes to my mind. He was the first Symphony president and Blanche Korrick was very instrumental, and I think she was president one year. But he did get everyone together and organized. INTERVIEWER: I know that many sick people came to Phoenix for their health. Did you have any experience with any of those, with the nursing homes, or the -- I know Rabbi Krohn was sort of mixed up in that, too. SYLVIA: He did that, but I know during the war, Nellie Diamond worked at the train station. I didn't have any direct contact with anyone you would know. We had direct contact with someone -- the Boils, who were not Jewish, he had to come out here on a stretcher, which was nothing new. At the train station they had stretchers available and all sorts of things that would be needed for someone who was incapacitated. They werereadily available to transport you from one area to another, to a nursing home. There was nothing in Sunnyslope and people went to Sunnyslope to stay there for their health, because the air was pure and cleaner. They were advised to live more outdoors, not indoors, so some people built tents in Sunnyslope and then later built homes. one man said he came out here for his health for tuberculosis and asthma, more than anything else at that time, and they were all declared cured after a year. INTERVIEWER: Sylvia, can you tell us more about the social life of the young married women and the families? How did you amuse yourselves, what did you do out in this hot country? SYLVIA: Well, we always got together, for one, and there'd be outdoor parties. So many of the people would have dinner parties, but we would have picnics out on the desert and they would be, to me, very formal parties, because there would be steak fries and there would be music, and sometimes we had Mexican music, mariachi band. Sometimes there would be dancing music -- this would all be at South Mountain -- and we would dance. There's an area there where you can dance. Sometimes the social events took place when there'd be a full moon - people would use any excuse. If you'd have a party you'd check to see if there'd be a full moon.A lot of entertaining was done in back yards, any place where it would be cool. As I recall, when it was dark the coolest place for a party was at South Mountain. It was wonderful. You'd get all dressed up - you didn't wear your pants, you'd be wearing fancy clothes. In the winter, when it was warm and lovely, you'd have breakfast or brunches out on the desert and then you'd dress in your jeans. I remember taking my cousin out and some families, neighbors, and people of temple, too, we'd all go out there as a family. My cousin thought I was taking her to a fancy restaurant at the top of the mountain and little did she understand until she got there how wonderful it was, and she just loved it. We brought everything. It'd be eggs, it'd be anything you had in the house from the refrigerator - it could be eggs, it could be hamburgers, it could be everything. A lot of picnics were held there. A lot of events were held also on the old temple grounds on 3rd Street. INTERVIEWER: On 3rd Street? SYLVIA: Yes. INTERVIEWER: That's not Culver? SYLVIA: 2nd Street -- 1st Street and Culver. INTERVIEWER: At the temple grounds? SYLVIA: On the temple grounds. We would have dinners at night and they'd be prepared by the women and that was a fund raising event. I remember Carrie Lewkowitz had very large grounds at her home. We had a lot of parties at her home when she lived on Palm Lane. A lot of temple activities went on in that particular fashion. It was always outdoors. Men had their own poker parties and the women would bring -- INTERVIEWER: They had poker parties? SYLVIA: Oh, wonderful poker parties. INTERVIEWER: Tell about those. SYLVIA: Well, we always had poker parties at home. It would depend on where the men lived. If you had enough men in your area you could have a poker party easily. Martin Kullick was next door to us, so Irving always had poker parties. Abe Korrick lived not too far and the other people, let's see, who else? Abe Korrick would always come - you could hear him a mile away when he got upset with the cards. Then there was Milton Ganz, I think. There were some of the Gettels. They were all mixed up. I'm trying to think of who else would come - people that lived in our particular neighborhood. If you had a poker game they were there in nothing flat. It was hot and when we had swamp coolers, you opened up the windows and that's where you could hear Abe Korrick if he had a bad hand. We always used to laugh about it. The women were invited and they would play sometimes bridge, sometimes another game of some kind - I've forgotten which one now, because I don't play cards anymore. They would stay. A lot of times the men would be there alone and have a wonderful time. Then in the evenings we'd have a big buffet supper. That was for the men and you didn't dare touch anything there. INTERVIEWER: Was it like pot luck, I mean, everyone would bring stuff or -- SYLVIA: A couple of times we had pot luck, but when the men's poker parties, I took care of them at our house. We had some wonderful pot luck suppers. I know one time when we moved on Orange Drive we had a wonderful pot luck supper. I was making homemade yeast rolls, and someone said to me, "Where are your rolls, Sylvia?" I'd forgotten to take them out of the oven and there they were burning. They were very good. Each one brought a dish, so it was good. The great fun was really, to me, on South Mountain. We used to have wonderful times there. INTERVIEWER: What about the Westward Ho as a center of entertainment? SYLVIA: Oh, well, everyone went there for special occasions. If you wanted to take a girlfriend to lunch and it was special you went to the Westward Ho. If you had someone to invite for a special occasion, that was the place to go. There was also another place - the American Kitchen. If you went to the theater or you went somewhere else you always ended up at the American Kitchen. That was on Central Avenue near Washington. That was run by an Oriental family. I had some people that would work for me once a week to clean my house. They told me that there was a balcony upstairs and that's where they went, and they would watch their employers having a wonderful time below. Speaking of Mexicans and Indians and blacks, that's where they would go at night for dinner - watch their employers having a great time. INTERVIEWER: Sylvia, do you remember at all those wonderful pageants called the Mask -- SYLVIA: Oh, the Mask of the Yellow Moon? INTERVIEWER: Yes. Tell about those. SYLVIA: Oh, yes, It was wonderful! It was marvelous! It was at Phoenix Union High School and the thing that I marveled at was that they had live animals, like they had horses going through in the Mask of the Yellow Moon. Miss Perkins was their teacher, who was very highly thought of. This performance, I think, ran for three nights -- I don't recall how long, but it was a very special type of entertainment. INTERVIEWER: All the high schools took part, didn't they? SYLVIA: There was only one high school there. INTERVIEWER: Well, I meant the segregated high school. SYLVIA: I never thought of that one. I think it was put on by Phoenix Union High School alone, because Miss Perkins was the teacher. INTERVIEWER: Yes. She was the one. SYLVIA: If she was the teacher she was the teacher of that school. INTERVIEWER: The first one I ever saw -- SYLVIA: It could have blacks, but they were blacks at Phoenix Union High School. INTERVIEWER: No, because It was from their school. They just did a whole segment of Just black children. SYLVIA: Oh, I don't remember that. INTERVIEWER: But it was a wild, wonderful thing. SYLVIA: The year I recall, the one time they did it they called it "Under Four Flags". That was the theme - "Under Four Flags". So, it depends upon the theme and what they did, but she was a wonderful woman. INTERVIEWER: Mrs. Perkins. SYLVIA: Miss Perkins was the teacher that was the guiding light there. INTERVIEWER: Very good. Were the ladies stylish? I mean, could you get dressed up and go to Los Angeles or whatever? SYLVIA: Well, we didn't get dressed up to go to Los Angeles. We got dressed up to go to a luncheon in Council of Jewish Women. If they had a luncheon we were dressed and I would wear a hat, for the longest time, and gloves. I was criticized for it, but I Just never went out of the house without hat and gloves. After awhile I learned how to forget about it, but In the meantime I would always wear a hat and gloves - to temple, too. For many years I wore a hat. They were awful looking on me. I remember the consecration of the new temple. You were there, weren't you? INTERVIEWER: Yes. Tell about that. SYLVIA: I was so proud to think that we finally made it. I think it was shortly after my son was bar mitzvahed and he would help- after Rabbi Krohn taught him and he learned a lot of good lessons and I think he learned a great deal of Hebrew, which he did from rote -- but he learned how to clean up the new part of the temple and watched how rabbi saw that everything was done at the new temple. He helped him. He was his chief assistant. Rabbi went over there all the time to watch everything that went on. But that's all I can recall of that. I do remember some of the hot meetings we used to have at temple in the old temple on 3rd Street. INTERVIEWER: What did they argue about? SYLVIA: Little things. I don't recall what they argued about, but as I look back and I'd get home at night it was more or less a question of personalities, because they were so small. As I go to services now, it's the same thing. But everyone was in accord with the fact that we needed a new temple. We didn't have that. Eleanor Spector can tell you a lot more about what went on at the time, because she remembered there were some hot and heavy meetings. But I don't think we ever left - after we came back - no one ever left with a bad taste. They got rid of all their inhibitions and did all their screaming at temple and then came back out and laughed about the whole thing. INTERVIEWER: That was good. Well, I think you've given us a great deal that we didn't get in other interviews and I think we have a good feeling. SYLVIA: I have one thing I'd like to mention. The week after war was declared, after the famous Sunday, on Friday night everyone - everyone - went to temple. There wasn't anything that was done or said, we just knew where we belonged, and everyone went to temple, everyone offered their services. We were all working for some phase of the war effort, all the time. Everyone was knitting and making bandages and sewing and going over to the social club and doing whatever was necessary. Any time any of the boys were in town, and I mean the boys in service, they were always at our homes. We were very particular about where they went, because if it was a young man who was married and alone, we'd make sure that there weren't any girls at that house. INTERVIEWER: You were watching their morals. SYLVIA: We always watched out for them. Nellie Diamond used to work at the social area at the train station and she was always calling me, saying she had someone - could I put them up for the night. She had the big house, but she was working there. Many times I would pick up a young woman who was following her husband who had left Phoenix, and bring her home for a weekend. I remember filling shoe boxes with sandwiches for her on her trip. I always remember at the train station -- where the activity now is at the airport -- everything was at the train station. There's a lot, but you can't remember it all - but it was a wonderful way to live. It was fun, It was hot, It was difficult to live here, but it was marvelous and wonderful. Everyone worked together and we cared for one another. INTERVIEWER: That's important. SYLVIA: That was important. Carolyn Leesom, she was marvelous. She'd call me on the phone or she'd want me to do something, or I'd call her and I'd say, "What's new?" and Carolyn would say, "Now, don't start that again, Sylvia." She'd tell me who was born, who had a baby, who became engaged - she was the voice of the community. She knew everything and she would help me, because I didn't get around the community. That would be my signpost. You'd call on someone if they had a new baby, you would call on someone if they were sick, if they were in the hospital you knew about it. The bar mitzvahs -- everyone got together and did things. Everything was homemade. It was the biggest thrill of my life when I said that my son, Bryon, was going to be bar mitzvahed, and 20 people volunteered to bake for me - without me calling one person or saying I need any help. It was marvelous. The other day I met someone and she said to me, "You know, I fixed the trays for your son when he was bar mitzvahed." I said, "Which one?" and she said, "Byron." She said, "After all, you wouldn't let anyone do the trays but me, and I was honored." INTERVIEWER: Isn't that lovely. A memory of the community. SYLVIA: Yes. We always made for one another and we always baked for one another. If you were going to have a party we always did. I remember Dorothy Herzberg had a very elegant tea for her sister-in-law, her new sister-in-law. It was her husband's brother's new wife. She had this marvelous, elegant tea and I'll never forget how impressed I was, because everything was so beautifully done. You couldn't do any better in the big city, believe me, because they were wonderful, charming, gracious hostesses. I once gave a shower for a friend of mine whose daughter was being married and Mrs. Rosenzweig was invited because she knew these people very well. This was a little later on. I had met the first Mrs. Newton Rosenzweig and I had her at the house, but when Newton was divorced and he married Betty I had not met Betty. I was giving this shower and Mrs. Rosenzweig called me and she said, "You didn't invite Betty to your party." I said, "Mrs. Rosenzweig, I don't know Betty. This is a shower. You don't do those things." She said, "You call Betty; she went to school with Newton." I mean, she said this person I was giving the party for her daughter, she said, "She went to school with Newton. Please invite Betty." So I had to call her and invite her and explain to her. In this community if you invited a group of people and had a party and two didn't come, four extras always came. If they were new in the community they were welcome and there were lots of parties. INTERVIEWER: Very good. Anything else you'd like to add? SYLVIA: Oh, Mrs. Rosenzweig said she wasn't going to die until Barry Goldwater became president. INTERVIEWER: Oh, yes. Well, thank you very much, Sylvia. It's been very interesting and I think will be a good memory in our Jewish historical society of life in a rathe pioneer Jewish community. SYLVIA It's my pleasure. [end of transcript]