..inte: Toby Citron ..intr: Sylvia Diamond ..da: ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Toby Citron Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Sylvia Diamond Arizona Jewish Historical Society Log For Toby Citron Interview Pages 1 Husband, children Julius Kenneth Cynthia 1 Father started a temple: Abram Goodman 4th St. and Fillmore Bessie 2 Sisters Helen Michaels Sophie Citron 2 Father's store Fox Theater 3 Linsemeyers 3-4 Parent's card parties 4 Phoenix Union High School Phoenix College 4 Job before marriage Korrick's 4-5 Jules as podiatrist 5-6 Community activities Board of Adjustment Community Chest Mental Health office Maricopa County fun 6-8 Interest in mentally ill; Beginnings of Toby House 9 Grandchildren 10-11 Toby House today 12 First house on Missouri 12-15 Social life in early Phoenix 122 Club Doreen Mintz Linsemeyers Mama Rosenzweig 15-16 Musical background Phoenix Orchestra Phoenix Little Theater Milton Sachs Biltmore Hotel 18-19 Came to Phoenix in 1919 Brenda Meckler 19 Sunday outings as youngster Tempe Beach 19-20 Country living; Missouri Ave. North Central Avenue dairy 20-21 Married January 1939 Rabbi Dow Toby Citron Interview Good morning, Toby. This is Sylvia Diamond. It is June 13, 1989. I'm at Toby Citron's house. DIAMOND: How are you this morning? CITRON: Just fine. DIAMOND: Now, tell me a little bit about yourself. Give me your birth date CITRON: I was born November 22, 1917. DIAMOND: The names of your children and your husband and your family, and a little bit about your background first. CITRON: My husband's name is Julius. we have a son, Kenneth, and a daughter, Cynthia. We have five grandchildren, ages from 18 months to 25 years. We came to Phoenix in August of 1919. Can you believe that? DIAMOND: How wonderful. CITRON: When we came to Phoenix there was no temple, there was nothing. There were just a handful of Jewish people at that time. I can remember my mother telling me that there was a rabbi by the name of Rabbi Dow - in later years, not when we first came. (We came here from Cincinnati, Ohio.) My mother wanted to get a kosher chicken, which was an Impossible thing to do, but Rabbi Dow would kill the chicken for 50 cents, which made it a kosher chicken because he was a rabbi. My father started a temple. He did not like the other temple that they had because it was more Orthodox. They started a temple on 4th Street and Fillmore, which was purchased from a Baptist church. DIAMOND: Give me your father's and mother's names. CITRON: My father's name was Abram Goodman, and my mother's name was Bessie. Unfortunately, they're not living. Mother died when she was quite young, at the age of 48. DIAMOND: How many brothers and sisters did you have? CITRON: I did have a brother who passed away, but I have two sisters that live. Helen Michaels lives In Sun City and she is married to a rabbi. Sophie Is married to my husband's brother. I refer to Julius as Jules, because that's what I've always called him and everybody else calls him that, too. My mother and father were very active in the community in many ways. My father had a store at 2nd Street and Jefferson. It was Goodman's corner, and his slogan was "Watch our prices because we don't pay rent." I'll never forget that. They started a temple at 4th Street and Fillmore. The two people that read the Hebrew were my father and Charles Korrick. We had no rabbi at that time. In fact that building, I think, is still there, if I'm not mistaken, on 4th Street and Fillmore. I don't know who owns it. I haven't been down that way, but I think it's still there. They were very active in the Jewish community, but in the whole community, really. There were many people that wanted to start a theater downtown on Washington between 2nd Street and lst Street, and it was called the Fox Theater. In order to get that theater there were many merchants that had to put up money to get that built. My father was one of them DIAMOND: Do you know about when that was? CITRON: What year that was -- that must have been in the 30's I don't know the exact date, but I'm sure it was in the 30's. My mother was very active in the temple. She was very active in many of the community affairs in the city. The two people that I can remember that were very dear to them was the Linsemeyer family. They were very close to them. Do you remember the Linsemeyer family? DIAMOND: Were they fish people? CITRON: Yes, their son owned the fish place that we all went to get our fish for Passover. Do you remember? DIAMOND: Yes. CITRON: It was in the alley that we all went to get the fish. That was their son that had that place. But, Mr. Linsemeyer, Sr., who owned the building right across the street from my father on 2nd Street and Jefferson, They became very, very dear friends. I can remember my mother giving my father a 50th birthday party. All the fans in the house were going and we didn't have air conditioning at that time, but my mother used to have a big - I guess you'd call it what would you call it - a big pot that she used to boil clothes in, in those days outside. It was filled with ice and a sheet over it, and then there was the fan, and that used to blow the cold air, because my parents were great card players. I can remember during the day mother used to play a lot of bridge, but at night they had poker games. They used to keep these fans, two or three in the dining room. When I was a little girl we lived at 614 North 6th Street, which was just two blocks from Phoenix Union High School, which was the only high school in Phoenix, other than Carver High School, which was only for the blacks, unfortunately. But In those days that was the way It was in Phoenix, as it was in every other city. DIAMOND: Did you go to school there? CITRON: I went to Phoenix Union High School, yes. Then I went to Phoenix College. I only was able to go for two years because my mother had died - mother died before I graduated high school. Then my father had a stroke a year later and I had to run the business. I did run the business until we sold it. Then I went to work for Korrick's for the $12.50 a week that they paid In those days. I worked until I got married. In those days Jules did not approve of women working, and women didn't work in those days. He was just getting started. Jules was a podiatrist and just getting started. In those days there was no law in the state of Arizona for podiatry. Jules wrote the law for the state of Arizona. In 1941 I can remember it passed. I was sitting way up in the legislature and it passed at midnight in 1941. He's done a great deal for podiatry; I'm very proud of him. In fact, he has been called the Father of Podiatry for the state of Arizona. He has been Man of the Year for podiatry. He is still, in fact, practicing at the VA Hospital, even though many times I keep asking him when is he retiring, but he's not ready to yet. Jules is quite an artist as you can see on the wall where we're sitting in the family room. He's a very outgoing individual and loves people. As he has said, he's a people person, which he is. As far as my own life, I've been very active in the community. I have been on the Board of Adjustment for the city of Phoenix for four years. I have been very active, when we used to have the Community instead of United Fund it was called the Community Chest and I was the chairman for the whole northeast part of Phoenix. I have received awards for that. When I was on the Board of Adjustment there were two women that dug the first hole for the Civic Plaza. One of them was Sophia Kruglick, and I was the other woman that dug the first hole for the Civic Plaza that we have In Phoenix. It was fun, it was interesting. Then I went on to - someone had called me from the Mental Health office and asked me if I would work with them, which I did. Then I was in charge of the drive they had for fund raising. It was for Maricopa County fund, to raise funds for the mentally ill. I did that for two years, and then the following year I was president of the state of Arizona for mental health. From that I went and I realized, when I went into boarding homes, how important it was to help the mentally ill. Because the 80-year-old and the 18-year-old, were in the same boarding home. That's all we had in the state of Arizona were boarding homes, and they had no help. They would sit there. In one boarding home that I went to there was a woman sitting there, probably in her 30's, with a book upside down. She hadn't spoken for a year. I went up to her and I said, "What would you really like to do?" She said.. "Sew. I'm a seamstress." When I came home, Gladys Bagley, who used to write for the Phoenix Gazette - and I'm sure you remember her - was a very dear friend, and I called her and told her my predicament and I said, "Gladys, I need your help in this." I said, "Could you put this in your column that we need a sewing machine?" The following day it was in the newspaper. I was gone all day and by the time I came home my phone was ringing and a woman was giving us a sewing machine. This woman has become a very well-known seamstress in the city of Phoenix. She is well, she is fine. No one had ever paid any attention to her, she had no parents, she had no one. But I guess it was just like a miracle that I was there that day to help this lady. From there - I had discussed it with Jules - and said, "We really have to help the mentally ill young people." So Jules encouraged me to do it. I started talking and preaching to anybody that would listen to me, or ask me to speak. I spoke one day at a meeting and a woman was sitting there and she asked me to lunch. This was at 1:00 in the afternoon. By 4:30 that afternoon - we sat in this one place, Guggy's in Scottsdale - and I had $125,000. That's how Toby House started, which is a halfway house for mentally ill people, 18 to 35. DIAMOND: When did it start? CITRON: It's 20 years ago that it started. We now take care of over 100 a day. We have two homes that we own, plus we have apartments that we rent as they proceed to get better they're on their own, but they can still have help. We have a daycare treatment center on 16th Street that they come on a daily basis. We have a workshop that they work and they make so much an hour - it depends on their capabilities to what they're doing. A few years ago we made tops - you know, these tops that kids play with. We made thousands of them that were sent to New York -someone wanted to buy them because of the way they were made by our mentally ill young people. We are considered an outstanding halfway house. There was a man here from National Mental Health about ten years ago, and he stayed in our main house at 303 West Willetta. We became very dear friends, and he said the way our house was run he couldn't say goodbye. He wrote a newsletter pertaining to this and this was sent nationally to many places throughout the country. I was asked to talk in Philadelphia one year and I flew to Philadelphia. I went to their halfway house. They have no fund raising. There, at that time, they were getting $47.5 million a year from our federal government to help these kids. No one lived there; this was on a daycare basis; they came in the morning and they left by 4:00 in the afternoon. it was a magnificent building. It was tremendous. They had their own cafeteria. But when I realized some of the monies that were wasted in our federal government I was furious, because you know how difficult it is to help causes, has always been. Many difficult days that we have tried to get money and we can't. We do get some federal help, but not as much as we should. We are successful. What we need is another halfway house. I'd like to have this, really, like headlines In the Republic/Gazette and the Phoenix Jewish News to let people know how desperately we need them. We have people, young kids from all faiths. We have had High Holy Day services. we have had Friday night services. Some of our women, mothers, and members of the Toby House Guild have come and made potato pancakes for holidays. I could go on and on with this, Sylvia, but I don't think that's just what you want to hear. DIAMOND: Sure. I want to hear all about you and your family and living In Arizona. CITRON: Well, our two children are very successful. Kenneth is executive vice president of the Security Pacific Bank and has been with the bank ever since he was out of college. Cindy is with First Interstate Bank and she has a very good job with them. DIAMOND: Tell me about your grandchildren. CITRON: My grandchildren are my joys. Roxanne is 25 and she is a secretary in San Diego. The other two boys, 21 and, well, Byron will be 19, they're in college. The two little ones are 3 and a year and a half. They're our joy. In fact, they just went away on vacation and Kellan said to me, "Nana, I think you and Papa should go with me." I said, "Honey, we can't go with you." He said, "But, Nana, I'll miss you." They are very special little ones. We've been very lucky to have our two children that we have, such as you know, because when our two boys - your Byron and our Ken - are not too much difference in age and they were very close. They kind of stayed together and were together. When we got Ken - which both of our kids are adopted - you were the first one to come over with a tablespoon and a quart to measure the formula that you had had from your Byron when we got Ken. Do you remember that? I remember, because you didn't live far from us. We lived on Missouri and you lived over here on -- DIAMOND: On Orange Drive. CITRON: Orange. So, when I called you and told you, you flew over here with a big tablespoon and this quart to measure the formula. I remember that very well. I've worked hard in my days for the community, but, you know, I've given a great deal but I've received more for what I've done. I became a Docent for the art museum, but didn't stay with that too long, because that was not my cup of tea, so to speak. I wanted a different feeling. I think the art museum is a wonderful thing for the community, just as the work that you do, but it wasn't what I really wanted. It wasn't enough to fulfill my lifestyle. What I've done with Toby House has been very rewarding. I've shed many tears with some of the youngsters there. I call them my kids, even though we have some at 35 years of age. To me, they're very special and they are my kids, yes. DIAMOND: Tell me a little bit more about Toby House and what you're doing there now. You didn't tell me about any of the professionals that you have working there. CITRON: We do have some professionals. We have a psychiatrist. Some of the help that we have is volunteers. We have a psychiatrist on our board that has given us a great deal at no expense to us. Don't forget - $125,000 buying a house and trying to get help and social workers and bookkeepers and everything - doesn't go very far. When we first started we had two residents and Jules and I took a bed down from our house so two of the kids could sleep. The other slept on the floor. There was nothing in the house - it was absolutely barren. The kitchen was in very bad condition. The Health Department, as long as we kept it clean and guaranteed that we would redo it in a year, they would permit us to do it. Right now it's a show place, because we scrounged -- the only thing - primarily what I do is raise funds. That's what I do. I just now - we'll get the check in another week or two - raised $25,000, which helps. DIAMOND: How do you raise funds? CITRON: Talk, preach, beg. DIAMOND: You don't happen to have a thrift shop or anything like that? CITRON: We did have a thrift shop at one time, but our women that are members of the guild - it was too difficult. Rents were so high and we couldn't get women on a volunteer basis to work six days a week, so we gave it up. We made money at the time, but we gave that up and now we have fashion shows through the guild. We had cookbooks, we had card parties, luncheons. Last year we made around $8,000, which is not a lot, but it helps to feed -- some of our kids at Toby House pay nothing if they can't afford it. They pay absolutely nothing. DIAMOND: Do they have lunches there or dinners? CITRON: Oh, they have three meals a day. Some of them live there. DIAMOND: But the outpatients? CITRON: The outpatients bring their own, or we have a refrigerator there and we have a stove there. They can cook their lunch there. But that's only from 9:00 until 4:00. But in the two main houses and in the apartments, the kids that live in the apartments get their food from the Toby House, either from Toby 1 or Toby 2. DIAMOND: Now, the apartments are close by? CITRON: Yes, they're close by. They're close by. And that's what I've done with my life. DIAMOND: Well, you've done a lot with your life but you've only touched some of the highlights. Tell me about some of your affiliations in the Jewish community, which I know you've done a lot of work. CITRON: I have done a great deal. I feel that I'm still doing things for the Jewish community, because we have Jewish kids at our Toby House, and that is helping the Jewish community, too. I was vice president of the Sisterhood of Temple Beth Israel. I never went on to be president, because then I was too busy with what I was doing in the community with other things. Being on the Board of Adjustment was very time consuming. It really was. It was a very time-consuming job. DIAMOND: Tell me about some of your early life in Phoenix and your family. CITRON: My early life in Phoenix was fun. Phoenix was a wonderful little city, as you well know. The first house we built was on Missouri near 16th Street, and if anyone came down Missouri Avenue they came to our house, because it was about 10 degrees cooler. They came to sit outside at our house rather than where they were living. I can remember when I was a member of Hadassah, on the board of Hadassah, and I said, "Well, you can have a board meeting at my house." The meetings were at night in those days, because women left their children with their husbands. There weren't babysitters in those days as there are today. They didn't want to come out to our house because it was too far out in the country. This was like 40 years ago. But, we had a lot of fun. People didn't go to restaurants for entertaining in those days. They were all done in your own home. Social life was beautiful in those days, because everyone knew everybody else. Before I was married the temple was at 122 East Culver. We had a 122 Club of the unmarrieds and I was very active in that. We had a lot of fun. we met once a week, every Sunday night, It was sheer joy. DIAMOND: Who was the rabbi then and did you have a social leader? CITRON: We just got together - we started this amongst ourselves, the kids. I don't remember who -- DIAMOND: Did you go to Sunday School? CITRON: When I was growing up my sisters had more education than I did as far as their Jewish education. When I was growing up we always didn't have the teacher, so I was in kindergarten for five years, as far as my religious upbringing was concerned. Jules has always laughed at me, because he was bar mitzvahed and he was confirmed. I had none of that. Our children were. Ken was bar mitzvahed and Cindy was confirmed. In those days they didn't have bat mitzvahs like they do today. I don't think your daughter was bat mitzvahed either. They didn't have that in those days. But, we had such a good time and everything was done in the home. We all cooked and we baked and we just had a wonderful life growing up. In fact, Jules and I have said so many times, I think our growing up years were so much easier and more fun than our children's, because things are so much - well, the dollar is so important to the young today, and it wasn't in our day because we didn't have it very beautiful in those days. Sure, we had our sickness with our kids and many things and it was tough to make a living in those days and times were tough, but, yet, we still had a wonderful time together. It was a beautiful way of living In those days - much more so than our children today, because what we have today our children want when they're 20, 25 and 30. That's the standard of life today, that's the standard of living. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe their way is better, I don't know. What else can I tell you? DIAMOND: Your early life, before you were married - who were your girlfriends? CITRON: One of my dear girlfriends was Doreen Mintz, who, unfortunately, has passed away. She moved and married a man from Denver. She and I were great friends. Some of the boyfriends are gone. We used to have a group that went horseback riding at 5:00 every morning, which was fun. DIAMOND: Where did you go horseback riding? CITRON: Oh, there was a place out north, off of Central. DIAMOND: In Sunnyslope? CITRON: Near Sunnyslope, yeah. Do you remember - you were here then, I'm sure - when we had the country club out there on Central Avenue and we used to have it there 10 cents a dance and everybody went out there? It was over 50 years ago, because it was before we were married and I've been married over 50 years. DIAMOND: Was that your social life, you mean, to go out at night? CITRON: Uh-huh. DIAMOND: What was the rest of the entertainment like? Who did you see and where did you go? CITRON: Homes; in different people's homes. We entertained at our own homes. I can remember as a youngster my mother and father were very social and everything was around your home. DIAMOND: Who were your mother's and father's friends - anyone that we would remember? CITRON: Oh, dear. The Linsemeyers were their closest friends. They were friends with the Korricks. Mama Rosenzweig, as she was called, was a very dear friend of my mother's. In fact, when my mother was very ill and not going to live long, she used to come every day and see her. DIAMOND: Did you have girlfriends in high school and college? CITRON: Yes. DIAMOND: Did you have any special friends besides Doreen? CITRON: Isn't that awful? I don't remember some of their names. No, I don't remember a lot of them, because they're gone and I don't see them - a few hours, maybe, I could remember some of them. DIAMOND: Some interesting incidents that happened growing up, I know you remember some things that are funny, or entertaining, or difficult, or early married life. CITRON: When I was in high school I was a concert mistress with the Phoenix Orchestra. Did you know that? DIAMOND: No, I didn't. CITRON: Yes, I was. I was a concert mistress with the Phoenix orchestra when I was a junior in high school. Then I was in the -- we used to have a group that sang and I used to do the solos in those days. I was a soprano and I used to do that. DIAMOND: You didn't follow through with something like that? CITRON: No, I did not. DIAMOND: You should have. CITRON: I should have, yes. Then we had a string quartet that played the Phoenix Little Theater. Helen, my older sister, who is quite a pianist DIAMOND: Helen who? CITRON: Michaels, my sister. Milton Sachs and the oldest Gross boy -- what was his name -- three violinists and the pianist. Then, at the Biltmore Hotel, the string quartet played there, too, on a Sunday afternoon. Then we played for the plays at the Phoenix Little Theater. DIAMOND: How much fun. CITRON: Oh, we had a lot of fun doing that. That was great. DIAMOND: Where was the Phoenix Little Theater then? CITRON: It was on McDowell and Central in an old, dilapidated place. But it was always busy, and there was always local talent that wanted to come and work for the Phoenix Little Theater. That was our donation, I mean as far as our -- we played at all the plays. We had such fun doing it. When my parents were trying to pay off the mortgage for the temple at 4th Street and Fillmore, my sister, Sophie, directed a play. It was called "Little By Little", I remember. What a name! I'm trying to remember who was in that. DIAMOND: Did you perform at night? CITRON: Oh, it was at night, yes. DIAMOND: Very important. CITRON: You paid like a dollar, fifty cents for a seat to get in - to pay off the mortgage. we had this play, I think it ran for two nights, Saturday night and Sunday night, or something, to burn the mortgage. I was in that. You know, Sylvia, I was so active in so many things, because I always had to be in everything. I always did. I guess maybe that's why I am the way I am today. DIAMOND: What's wrong with the way you are? CITRON: Because I lead a very active life, but I enjoy what I'm doing. I find it very fulfilling. I'm not the kind that can sit and watch the idiot box, as Jules calls TV, no more than you can. I don't know how to say no, I guess. Many times with Toby House I became disillusioned and I thought I would never do it. I couldn't do it, because I couldn't get the funds to do it, but Jules always encouraged me. I think that takes care of most of my doings in my life. DIAMOND: Oh, no. You did a lot of other things. Some of the parties you used to have and some of the things you used to do. There were a lot of things you used to do. We used to have so much fun together. Sisterhoods - didn't you go to Sisterhoods and council of Jewish Women? CITRON: Oh, always. Council of Jewish Women I was very active. So were you. Council of Jewish Women. What else did we do? Hadassah. I was chairman of the -- what was the name of the thing that we used to do for the hospital in Jerusalem? Wasn't it in Jerusalem -- the hospital? DIAMOND: What about you when you were very little with your family? You said that your father had a store, but you never mentioned what kind of a store it was. CITRON: He had a clothing store and right next to it, on 2nd Street, he had a grocery store, too. I can remember when I was six years old asking my father - because we all worked in the store - how much a pound of eggs was. Because I was so little I didn't know that you sold them by the dozen. I can remember because my mother used to tell me that I asked my father how much a pound of eggs was. DIAMOND: Why did they come out here and what year did they come out here? CITRON: We came out in 1919. We came out because my mother had high blood pressure. She couldn't take the cold that there was in Cincinnati, Ohio. That's why they moved out. They came out here with the Weisberg family -- the daughter is Mrs. Meckler now. DIAMOND: Brenda's family? CITRON: Brenda Meckler. Brenda's mother and father came out with my parents. They were very dear friends in Ohio. They came out here and they tossed a coin whether they were going to California or Arizona. That's how we ended up in Arizona instead of California. Brenda Meckler was their only child, but of course, then she moved to California at a later time and she was quite a writer. We had many good times as youngsters. On Sundays the stores were open til 2:00. A lot of Jewish people - my mother and dad's friends - we used to go out to Tempe Beach. Do you remember that? We used to go to Tempe Beach and the mother used to fix a big picnic lunch, like all the other wives did. They played poker and we used to use the swimming pool. That was called Tempe Beach and we'd stay until like 10:00 at night, til they closed up the place. That's what we did on Sunday afternoon when the temperature was hot. But it was not hot, as hot as it is today., nor did we have the humidity that we have today, because we didn't have the swimming pools and the town was much smaller. In those days, Phoenix was around 20,000 and now it's, what? Two million? Million and a half? Something, whatever it is, it's too big. Missouri Avenue was really - where Park Central is, you know it used to be the North Central Avenue dairy. In fact, I think it was in the paper the other day. When my in-laws bought the place at 16th Street and Missouri, you remember, we used to have cows. Before Jules would go to his office in the morning he would deliver the milk to the Central Avenue dairy, because he would get up early and help milk the cows and take the milk into the Central Avenue dairy. We were really out in the sticks in those days. There was only one Madison School and that was at 16th Street and Missouri - that's where your children went, too. DIAMOND: But you haven't told me all the fun you had and the people you knew -- who was the rabbi when you started the shul - that was the shul when it broke up. CITRON: The first one, I think, was Rabbi Dow to my knowledge, I think. DIAMOND: When you built that shul? CITRON: I think that's what it was. No, that building was built - 4th Street and Fillmore. It was a Baptist church and they remodeled it. Now, the 122 East Culver - I think that that was - I don't remember whether -- DIAMOND: Was that built later? That was built afterwards? CITRON: Yes, I think that was afterwards. DIAMOND: But Rabbi Dow was the rabbi then? CITRON: Uh-huh. He married us. DIAMOND: Oh, you were married by Rabbi Dow? CITRON: We were married by Rabbi -- in fact, we had an engagement party and we had to sign engagement papers, which I never heard of, but Rabbi Dow suggested it, so we did. My sisters didn't, but we did. DIAMOND: Why engagement papers? CITRON: I have no idea, but we did. DIAMOND: Then how long were you engaged? CITRON: We were engaged in June and we were supposed to get married in November, but Sophie miscounted as to when Marilyn, her daughter, was supposed to be born, so we had to change it to January, because I wouldn't get married without my sister being there. I wanted to be sure that she was going to be there, so we changed it. Sophie will be hysterical when she hears this, but that's the truth. That's why we changed our wedding date. DIAMOND: What year was that? CITRON: That we married? We married in 1939, January of 1939. DIAMOND: The best parts are your interesting stories. You have so many interesting stories to tell. Now they're coming out. CITRON: You know, I just keep talking and talking. I'm going from one thing to another. I was very active in PTA. I was president of PTA for three years. My children always said, "My mother will do it." - the baking, or whatever. I think you were the same. We spent a good deal of time at Madison School. When Ken became a Boy Scout, Jules was the one that was picked to take the boys on an overnight hike, overnight camping trip, I guess. DIAMOND: Where did they go on their overnight hike in those days? CITRON: Oh, I don't think it was far from Phoenix, maybe 20 miles, 30 miles, which was a long way, of course. Saturdays the boys wanted a baseball game, but Jules worked on Saturday. We had an acre at the other house and then we had a big field behind it, so I was the referee on a Saturday for the 11 boys that came to play. No mother ever came around. Then I would feed them lunch. I can remember buying two and three loaves of Holsum bread to make sandwiches for them in those days. But, the kids had a good time. They had a lot of fun. We were lucky - our children were good children, and still are. I've always been very close to my sisters. We talk to each other and know everything that's going on, good, bad or indifferent with their families. (This is Sylvia Diamond, the interviewer, and after we had concluded that tape, Toby Citron told me since she was so interested in mental health that Rabbi Krohn and Meredith Harless organized the first mental health organization in Arizona.) Thank you. [end of transcript]