..inte: Sarah Brown ..intr: Maxine Goldsmith ..da: 1990 ..ca: ..ftxt: An Interview with Sarah Brown November 2, 1990 Transcriptionist: Carol Ruttan Interviewer: Maxine Goldsmith Log for Sarah Brown Interview 1- 2 First in Phoenix 1930 Sarah Ethel Brown Benjamin Brown Zena/Paula Sobol 3 First home 3- 4 Children Daniel and Seyom 4 Before Phoenix - New Jersey 5 Appearance - Phoenix Hershman family Tanya Hershman Esther Sonkin 6 Mother 7 Jewish organizations 8 From Russia to Massachusetts at age 12 8 Friends Dr./Mrs. Shafer 9 Spoke Hebrew/Yiddish 9 Young Judea, Hadassah 9 Pioneer Women Malamed, Mosha & Miriam (NJ) 10-11 Growing up Jewish Sokolow (maiden name ) 11-12 Siblings Brothers Harry & Alec Sisters Rose & Rena 12-13 Met husband 13-14 Education 14-15 Worked as saleslady 15 Married 1930 16 Phoenix - active community 17 Anti-Semitism in North Adams, Massachusetts 20-24 Introduced to husband Bertha Wallerstein. Alfred Wallerstein Sidor Belarsky Henrietta Szold Dr. Jack Sobol Paula Hershman 27 Discussion group28 Golda Meier Na-amat This is Maxine Goldsmith. I am interviewing Sarah Brown for the Arizona Jewish Historical Society. Today is Friday, November 2, 1990. GOLDSMITH: Sarah, what was your occupation before? BROWN: You mean, before I came here? GOLDSMITH: Were you a homemaker? BROWN: Not necessarily. I mean, there were so many things that I have been doing. Let's see, what did I do directly before I came here? GOLDSMITH: Yes. Were you trained in a specific occupation? BROWN: No. Before I came here, I came from Los Angeles about ten years ago. I was not doing anything special. I lived in Los Angeles with a sister and my mother and just took care of the household and was active in all kinds of -- like I am now. I didn't work at that time, but many years ago, naturally. GOLDSMITH: Let me Just make sure that I have your name spelled correctly. Do you spell Sarah with an H or without? BROWN. With an H. Sarah Ethel Brown, B-r-o-w-n. GOLDSMITH: Would you give me your date of birth? BROWN: Surely. Why not? August 5, 1899, 91 years ago. GOLDSMITH: Where were you born? BROWN: I was born in Russia. I'll tell you where. I was born in Lithuania, not Russia, but it was Lithuania at the time. GOLDSMITH: When did you first arrive in Arizona? BROWN: In Phoenix here? GOLDSMITH: In Arizona, first. BROWN: I wasn't anywhere else in Arizona, just Phoenix. GOLDSMITH: When did you arrive in Phoenix? BROWN: Many years ago, after I was married, my husband and I passed by Phoenix on our honeymoon. We were going toward Salt Lake City. We traveled at that time by - we'd rent a car or go by train and we went all the way around until we came to -- when I came here, my husband and I - that was 1930, I think. Yeah, it was 1930 when we passed by here. There was only one street, one business street. There was very little doing and everything seemed to be so strange to me and so different. I said, "My god, Benjamin -- his name was Benjamin Brown -- "I'd never want to live in a place like that." Now, I say, you should never say never. I came here twice after that. I came here - that was when Benjamin was already dead - the first time I came here was in about 1944. I came here with my two sons who were not feeling well and my doctor - we lived in New Jersey at the time - my doctor recommended a place like Arizona or some other warm place for them. Since I knew I'd met some people in -- we lived on a farm and at our farm those people had a little summer place, New York people by the name of Sobol. Do you know the Sobols? GOLDSMITH: No. Do they live here? BROWN: Some of their children are still here. The Sobols - Zena and I've forgotten his first name. Their children now, you surely must know her - Paula. GOLDSMITH: Oh, I know Paula. BROWN: Well, Paula's husband is one of the people that I met when he was a young boy. He and his parents were there and his brother - Dr. Sobol, I forgot his first name. But, anyway, these were the two boys and the older son became a doctor. So, I thought I better come to Phoenix. They were living in Phoenix at the time and so my children will have him as a doctor. I knew the family, of course, so I came here with my children. They found a place for me and all that. So, the Sobols were the ones that befriended me at that time and this was 1943. 1930 is when I passed by with my husband and I said -- never say never. 1944 - yes, 1944. I came here In 1944 with my two children. GOLDSMITH: What were your children's names? BROWN: The older one Is Daniel and Seyom. They were teenagers. GOLDSMITH: Would you spell his name? BROWN: Well, Paula's husband is one of the people that I met when he was a young boy. He and his parents were there and his brother - Dr. Sobol, I forgot his first name. But, anyway, these were the two boys and the older son became a doctor. So, I thought I better come to Phoenix. They were living In Phoenix at the time and so my children will have him as a doctor. I knew the family, of course, so I came here with my children. They found a place for me and all that. so, the Sobols were the ones that befriended me at that time and this was 1943. 1930 is when I passed by with my husband and I said -- never say never. 1944 - yes, 1944. I came here in 1944 with my two children. GOLDSMITH: What were your children's names? BROWN: The older one Is Daniel and Seyom. They were teenagers. GOLDSMITH: Would you spell his name? BROWN: S-e-y-o-m. They came here and I couldn't find an apartment so I had to buy a little home. We looked around for a place to buy and we bought a little home on East Almeria. The reason they wanted that section is because they wanted to go to North Phoenix High. They found out the school they wanted, so in order to get to North Phoenix High we had to live In that area. So, we bought a little home and they lived there and went to school there. The two children were in school here. Let's see, Daniel graduated in 1950 from North Phoenix High and he was accepted at Cal Tech, so he left for Cal Tech. The younger one, Seyom -- the difference is only 18 months -- the younger one, Seyom, was still at school and when he graduated we found that at just about that time, I think, the war started. He was getting nervous he'd be taken and he hated war. He wrote little poems and he wrote little stories about how terrible war is and he just hated war. So, of course, he didn't want to be a soldier. That would have been the worst for him, to be a soldier in any war. So, I said, "Seyom, you'd better look around and try to get into college. If you're at a college you probably won't be taken." so, he applied to -- what is the name of the private college in Los Angeles? GOLDSMITH: USC. BROWN: USC. Yes. So, he applied for USC and he was accepted. GOLDSMITH: Was this the Korean War? BROWN: The Korean War, that's right. Now, I was here and mother and a sister. GOLDSMITH: Your husband had already passed away when you came here with your sons? BROWN: Yes. He passed away in 1939, February 12, 1939. He was very well known. GOLDSMITH: Where did you live before you came to Phoenix? BROWN: We lived in New Jersey. That's where we had a farm. My husband liked farming. He was not a farmer, actually, but we bought a very beautiful farm. It was a 300-acre farm and the boys were born on the farm. When he died I was still in New Jersey and I still had the farm. When I came here I still had the farm. I left the farm there- my father and mother and I came here with the children and rented that little apartment. And what happened? How did I get to New York first? Because I was in New York first before I came to Los Angeles. I didn't know I'd be asked so many questions. GOLDSMITH: So, you came to Phoenix because of -- BROWN: Because of the children, of course, yes. I came because of the children. GOLDSMITH: Tell me again what it looked like when you came here. BROWN: When I came the second time it was a very lively community. There were not just many people but there were some very fine Jewish people. My children met other Jewish children. My son, Seyom, who liked music formed a music club here and they used to come together and play. There was a Hershman family - he's a rabbi now. GOLDSMITH: Hershman? BROWN: I'm a little bit mixed up on this. So much has happened during the time that I -- I didn't know I'd have to answer all those questions. GOLDSMITH: That's okay. Do you remember how they spelled their name, Hershman? BROWN: H-e-r-s-h-m-a-n. Hershman. There were two family Hershmans that we met. One is this Tanya Hershman who here now and she's the one who's lived here for many years, because I met her and the Sobols at the same time I came here. Then his brother was another Hershman. I know his son and Seyom and a few of the other kids were together and formed a music club. They used to get together and play music and practice and had a great time. They'd come to my little home there and practice. Hershman, now, he died and he left two or three children, boys. His wife is now married and she is Esther Sonkin. She now lives at 6250 N. 19th Avenue. That's another family that's been here quite some time. GOLDSMITH: Do you have her phone number? BROWN: Yes. 249-4045. That's the other family. Now, their children, one of them is a rabbi now. I don't know what community he is the rabbi. So, that's the other family and they were together. My son, Seyom, was musical and artistic. He was told at school before he graduated that he better become a musician and concentrate on music. His art teacher told him he'd like to see him as an artist and practice art. He didn't know what he really wanted to do, so how is it that we went to New York? Why did I go to New York? GOLDSMITH: From here? BROWN: From here, yes. one came to Pasadena - Cal Tech, you know, my oldest son. And my youngest son and my mother and I moved to New York City for a time. GOLDSMITH: So, your mother was living here with you? BROWN: Yes, my mother was living here with me, yes. GOLDSMITH: Had she come with you at the beginning? BROWN: I brought her here after awhile, but she was here with me. My father was dead at this time. When I left New Jersey my father was still alive and I left father and mother together. But then he died during that time and I took mother with me. GOLDSMITH: Tell me a little bit about what life was like when you came here. You were here for that period and -- BROWN: Life was quite interesting to me. It's such a long time ago that I'm a little confused, I know. Life was very Interesting to me. I was always interested in things and life was especially interesting for me. Now, let's see. What did I do at the time when I was here? I joined various organizations, I know. There was no Federation at the time. GOLDSMITH: Do you remember the organizations that you joined? BROWN: I was Hadassah when I came, but I wasn't Hadassah here. We had Hadassah meetings at my home. I don't remember. Isn't that strange? I can't recall. I'm just a little tired, too. GOLDSMITH: Any time you want to stop and rest we can do that. How big was the Jewish community at that time? BROWN: Well, I don't know what the population was at the time. Tanya Hershman and some of the others can tell you more about it, because they lived here right along and they knew and I met them all here, so she would know much more about it. GOLDSMITH: Did you belong to a synagogue? BROWN: No. I was still a member of my synagogue back home in New Jersey. I didn't belong to any synagogue here. GOLDSMITH: What did you do for a social life? BROWN: That's what I'm trying to remember. I know I was always busy, but what did I do? I'm just blank, for a few minutes I'm just blank. GOLDSMITH: It'll come back as we talk. BROWN: It happens that way to me, see, at this stage of the game. There are times when I just can't remember things. GOLDSMITH: Were most of your friends Jewish or did you have non-Jewish friends? BROWN: My friends were all Jewish up here. In New Jersey I had many non-Jewish friends also, but here and also in Massachusetts where I came from -- when we came from Russia we came to North Adams, Massachusetts. I was 12 years old when I came here. I became active up there right away, Young Judea and things like that. I organized a Young Judea club up there when I was very young. Later on we started Hadassah in North Adams. GOLDSMITH: Did you have any special friends when you were here during that five-year period? BROWN: When I came here, yes. I had Tanya Hershman and this lady who was a friend of mine. The Sobols were friends of mine and Dr. and Mrs. Schafer. We were all together in one group. GOLDSMITH: And what kinds of things did you do? Did you meet at each other's homes mostly and socialize that way? BROWN: Yes, mostly. Mostly in each other's homes. I was busy at the time, but I can't recall why. GOLDSMITH: Did your children go to Hebrew School? BROWN: No, they didn't. I taught them most of what they knew in Hebrew. I knew Hebrew very well. I had a very good background in Yiddish and Hebrew and some Russian, so I taught them what they knew. GOLDSMITH: Other than your close friends, do you remember who were the leaders in the community at that time? Do you remember who the rabbis were? BROWN: I don't remember. There was a rabbi that I liked very much - I don't remember his name. He was very well known. Tanya would know all those things much better than I. If she were here with me we would recall all those things. Tanya lives on the other side -- GOLDSMITH: I'll certainly try and get in touch with her. In here it talks about your interest in Zionism. Were you active in Zionist activities here at that time? BROWN: Yes, I was a Zionist, of course, and Young Judea, and my home town - Young Judea and Hadassah. It was later on in New Jersey before I came here from New Jersey that I became what they called Pioneer Women. I organized some Hadassah groups in North Adams, Massachusetts, where I lived. In New Jersey there's a whole history of my husband and the things that he did and I worked with him. I became a member of Pioneer Women's group. Some of my friends in New Jersey were well known. They lived in a colony that my husband had organized in New Jersey. He was a writer. Moshe and Miriam Malamed came from Philadelphia - he was a writer. He used to write in the Jewish Tag. They are both dead now. GOLDSMITH: This is in New Jersey? BROWN: Yes. That's where I became a Pioneer Woman. I was the president of Hadassah in North Adams for many years. Also, I organized a Hadassah group In New Jersey and then later on, when I met these people and she was the president of Pioneer Women and organized Pioneer Women's group In Philadelphia, she came to live In New Jersey and we became very close. They wanted to have a special gathering and we had a large home with one room we had reserved for special occasions. I let them have the room. They all came there and they had a lot of people coming on a Saturday. I became a member of their group and then I became active as a Pioneer Woman. So, of course, when I came here I was already a Pioneer Woman. GOLDSMITH: Did you continue being active while you were here? BROWN: That's what I don't remember. Did they have a Pioneer Women's group here? I don't remember. I know they had a Hadassah group. I didn't know whether they had a Pioneer Women's group here. I don't remember. GOLDSMITH: Tell me a little bit about your early life. What are the first things you remember about being Jewish? Did you have a Jewish home when you were growing up? BROWN: Yes, surely. We had a Jewish home. GOLDSMITH: What are your first memories of growing up Jewish? BROWN: In Russia I had a Jewish rabbi first. I went to school with a Jewish rabbi. Later on a teacher came - not a rabbi, but a teacher, a Jewish teacher. I left the rabbi and went to the Jewish teacher and I went to school there. I studied Yiddish and Hebrew. That's where I had my first lessons in Yiddish and Hebrew. GOLDSMITH: Were both of your parents observant? BROWN: Yes, very religious. I was very, very religious up to about the age of 21, so strictly religious that in my town of North Adams - in America - I was 12 years old when I came here - I taught Sunday School and the children who were in Sunday School, some of them who were not religious, whose parents were not religious, became very religious as a result. Some of them whose homes were not real kosher said that they would leave their parents, because Sarah Sokolow -- Sokolow was my name, by the way -- Sarah told them all about the Jewish religion and how important it is to be religious and to go to shul and to pray and all that. Also, especially to have a kosher home. I was that religious - I'm not like that now. So, as a result of my teaching Sunday School some of the children caused their parents to change their homes to kosher homes. That's what I do remember about North Adams, Mass. when I came back. GOLDSMITH: Did you have brothers and sisters? BROWN: Yes, I have a sister here. I had two brothers, Harry and Alec, and two sisters. One Is still In New Jersey and married there and is now Rose Greenberg. Rena Sokolow lives right across this white hall. GOLDSMITH: Is that a sister of yours? BROWN: Yes. Rena Sokolow, she's quite ill and I have to take care of her. I'm very concerned and that's one of the things that gets me. GOLDSMITH: How do you spell -- BROWN: Rena, R-e-n-a. She's right across from me. GOLDSMITH: Were they older, younger? Where did you fit? BROWN: I was the oldest of the five children. My mother in Russia used to do sewing to make a living and she used to send me to collect. When I was about five, six years old she used to send me to do collecting. I was the oldest so she sent me everywhere. Some people would not pay and some would accept me with open arms and others would just slam the door on me. Some of those things I recall. GOLDSMITH: Tell me about your husband. Where did you meet your husband? BROWN: That's a big, big story. I met my husband in New York City. His name was Benjamin Brown. That was a very interesting story. I came to New York to study from North Adams. They had special schools in New York. A friend of mine wrote me and she knew that I was very much interested. I was interested to go to Palestine and become a halutzim in Palestine. This was my first interest now. I was very young, of course. I was a Zionist, Young Judea organizer and all that. When I was 18 years old I was getting ready to go to Palestine and in order to get to Palestine I knew Hebrew but I wanted to be able to speak the spoken Hebrew. It's called Ivrit Bei Ivrit - Hebrew in Hebrew. This Is something I did continue my studies at home whenever we had a Hebrew teacher at North Adams I would take lessons. They said there was a school in New York that was teaching Hebrew. At the time my father had a business, a general store. I worked with my father in that store and I was almost in charge of the store. When I had to go it was a very difficult thing for me to leave my father and leave him alone. But I said I had to leave, I had to go because I wanted to. GOLDSMITH: How old were you? BROWN: I was 18 years old at the time. So I left for New York City to study Hebrew. I had some friends there. GOLDSMITH: What kind of schooling had you had up to then? What kind of education? BROWN: Oh, the education that I had was mainly the Hebrew education and I graduated the ninth grade. I started when I was 12 years old. They put me in the first grade at the time. I didn't know the language. I was so angry - I was a big girl in the first grade. I was quite tall. for my age. So, I graduated in two and a half years. I knew Russian and I knew languages and I was quite educated at the time. For a twelve-year-old, I had quite a good education. So, I kept skipping after a while, as soon as I knew enough of the language. In the ninth grade the teacher proposed me as the president of the class and I became the president - a Jewish girl. There were not very many Jews - there were probably about two or three Jewish children in my class. At that time the principal of the school called me over and embraced me and told the school of how I came here and how I made school in such a short time, how I learned the language, all that sort of thing. Now, after that I didn't have any formal schooling. I kept learning and taking private lessons here and there. The superintendent of schools and his daughter was a friend of mine and he gave me lessons and he taught us poetry and things like that. It was a very general education, really. GOLDSMITH: It was different then. BROWN: It was different. I had that kind of schooling, you see. Then, when I went to New York and I studied Hebrew -- GOLDSMITH: And that's when you met your husband. BROWN: Not right away. GOLDSMITH: How old were you when you met him? BROWN: When I went to New York I was just about 18 years old. GOLDSMITH: And how old was your husband? Was he older than you? BROWN: Yes, quite a bit. But I met him a few years later. I was in New York and I had to make a living. We were not rich. I didn't make too much money. I took enough money to buy some clothes and get to New York and that was all I wanted to take from my father. So, I found a Job in New York City on Lenox Avenue. I stayed with an aunt of mine while I was going to school and I said, "Well, I have to get a job." I wanted to get a job that I could go to school three nights a week. The place where I found the job was something entirely different. it was hosiery and gloves. Now, hosiery and Gelman's - they had stores all over. They had a sign out that they wanted a saleslady, so I applied. There were two brothers. "What kind of experience did you have?" I told them the kind of experience I had and it was entirely different but I said I could easily learn. I said I could sell anything. "Anything you want me to sell, I can sell." Well, they wanted someone who could take charge. Well, I said I had charge in my father's store and what I did there. So, after a while they accepted me and I became their saleslady. I sold In that store and I went to school. GOLDSMITH: What year did you get married? BROWN: In 1930. When I met my husband I was just about 28 or 29 years old. I came to New York. I met him at a different time. Why did I come to New York the second time? GOLDSMITH: To get back a little bit to your time of life In Phoenix, what did you think when you first came here? It was different from any place you had lived. BROWN: At the very beginning I told you we passed by and I said I never want to live in a place like that. When I came later I liked it very much. It was a very lively community. There was much going on. The Sobols and Tanya Hershman and a few other people and there was a doctor, I forgot his name. We worked together - we organized a club for all kinds of discussions about Jewish life and things like that. Did I join a Zionist group here? I don't remember. GOLDSMITH: How did you deal with the heat? BROWN: I didn't mind It at all. GOLDSMITH: Those days there was no air conditioning. BROWN: I know and I didn't mind the heat at all. I used to walk to shop on 16th Street. Now I take an umbrella. Without an umbrella I didn't mind the heat. GOLDSMITH: Did you live in a house or an apartment? BROWN: Well, I told you what we did, that I had to buy a little home here when I came with the children. GOLDSMITH: Do you remember where it was? BROWN: 32-something Almeria. Do you know where the hospital is? On 11th Street. Between 10th and 11th Street on Almeria, on the east side. GOLDSMITH: How do you spell that? BROWN: A-1-m-e-r-i-a. GOLDSMITH: Is the house still there? BROWN: Yes, the house is still there, sure. When I moved I sold the house. It was not far from Good Samaritan Hospital. This was south. The Good Samaritan was north of my house, right across almost. We used to walk over. GOLDSMITH: What kind of community was Phoenix, in general, in those days? BROWN: It was a very active community. There was lots going on. There was a Hadassah organization, there was a Zionist organization There were all kinds of organizations at the time GOLDSMITH: What about the non-Jewish community? Did you have any contact with the non-Jewish community? BROWN: No, not here. Not in Phoenix. Not at that time. I don't think so. in North Adams, yes. I had contact with the non-Jewish people. GOLDSMITH: Did you ever encounter any anti-Semitism? BROWN: In one sense, just one sense. But that was not here. That was also in North Adams. I never really encountered anti-Semitism, as such. I was about 29 years old when I was married and I was living in North Adams at the time - after being here for a while. I took care of this store here on Lenox Avenue for about a year and a half or two years - I was studying here. I came back home to North Adams and I decided - I thought I knew enough about the store I decided to open up a business like that, but a little different. This was more of a junky shop as far as I was concerned, so I wanted to have a special hosiery and glove shop. So, I found a little store on the main street. It was very expensive at the time - a long, narrow store. It was over $100 a month rent - at that time it was a lot of money. I had a few dollars saved up and I got the store. There were non-Jews In North Adams. I was very well-known In North Adams. I was active in Young Judea and president of Hadassah at the time and I taught Sunday school. I became very well-known as a person who was educated -- but not as educated as they thought I was. In Hadassah they had mostly European members at the time - mainly spoke Yiddish, I think. Many of the people In North Adams were Europeans. Their children, of course, were born there and knew the language, but they themselves were not. Hadassah was composed of women who were mostly European women. They had different presidents. They had married women and I was not married at the time, but I became a member of their Hadassah organization. Immediately, they made me secretary and as secretary I used to write the minutes in Yiddish and they used to come from all over to listen to my Yiddish. GOLDSMITH: Did you ever go to Israel to visit? BROWN: I was in Israel three times, but that was a long time after I planned to go then, but I couldn't make It. I became ill when I was 18 years old and I came back. I was going to go, but my mother became very ill and, of course, I couldn't go. I had to remain home. So I became the president In North Adams of Hadassah, the only unmarried president. In the Zionist organization they needed a secretary and I became their secretary also and wrote all the minutes and reports in Yiddish, although I conducted the meetings in English. I was telling you - I came back and bought the little store. I met my husband when I used to come to New York to buy merchandise for the store. My store was very different. Although they had different department stores and all, I had the specialty shop with hosiery, gloves and bags. I used to go to New York and shop and buy original styles of pocketbooks and all that. GOLDSMITH: And where was the store? BROWN: The store was right on the main street. Right across from the store was a non-Jewish club that was part of an American organization that had branches all over. Many of the leaders and the people there were women whose husbands were professors at the University - Princeton University. GOLDSMITH: Is North Adams in Massachusetts? BROWN: Yes. GOLDSMITH: Princeton is in New Jersey. Massachusetts is Harvard. BROWN: No, not Harvard. GOLDSMITH: Amherst? BROWN: There was a university right close by -- see how mixed up I am. I'll have to think about it. Anyway, some of the wives of those professors were leaders in this group. one time one of them approached me and asked me to become a member of their club. I was a Jewish girl and there were not very many. I think they had probably one or two people who were In business, but never were active. They approached me and I became a member. When I became a member they were very much interested in their organization and I immediately became active. GOLDSMITH: But you never encountered any anti-Semitism when you were here In Phoenix during those early times? BROWN: No. But, in North Adams there was some. At the beginning I had to make a living and I worked while I was going to school. I worked in a box factory and there was a non-Jewish girl there who was very anti-Semitic. She was so anti-Semitic that she made my life miserable there. But, in later life, when I opened my store she came over and wanted to become a saleslady. GOLDSMITH: Can you remember any interesting stories or anecdotes about people in Phoenix? BROWN: There are some in that place, but that goes together. When I was there, as a result of that, I met my husband GOLDSMITH: How was it? BROWN: We used to get, in that club, people from other parts of the country to come and speak to us. One time a young girl came - I forget her name - and was one of the speakers. I was very busy In my business before the holidays, but I came. When she spoke I was very much attracted to her - I kept looking at her all the time and wondered whether she was Jewish or not. We became very friendly and she happened to be a Jewish girl. Her name was Bertha Wallerstein. Her father was one of the 400 of New York City - a very wealthy man, unmarried. He had a beautiful home where Radio City was at the time. Later on, they bought his place in order to build Radio City. She introduced me to him - he was much older than I - very, very attractive, very beautiful person, Alfred Wallerstein. I called him uncle Al. Whenever I came to New York from North Adams he always had people to meet me. He'd invite very interesting people. He'd invite all kinds of younger and older people, musicians, writers, people who were very well-known people, but always met interesting people there. Bertha was married to a non-Jewish man -- she went by her name, Wallerstein, but she was married to a non-Jewish man and she had two children. So, she left but used to come and see her father anyway. One time when I came in to New York - I came to do some buying with my sister. I tried to train my sisters in my store. I'm not going to stay there too long- I'll probably want to leave sometimes and I wanted my sisters to know. My sister, Rena, went with me to New York to help me do the shopping. I called up this Uncle Al and told him I was in town and he said, "Oh, Sarah, you come in to see me. I'd love to see you right now. I feel terrible and every time you come I feel better." He wasn't feeling well. So, I dropped everything and came in and saw him for about an hour or so. Then he said, "Sarah, isn't that strange. There is someone I'd love you to meet. I'd like you to meet him, because he just recently returned from Palestine. He was on a commission. His name is Benjamin Brown. He is very disappointed. He's very critical about what he saw." He knew that I was an ardent Zionist at the time, so I said, "Well, I'm very tired." I had stopped at that hotel with my sister, so he said, "All right, so bring your sister along. There's someone I want you to meet that I don't know why, but every time you came - a few times I was thinking about it, but I couldn't get you. His name is Benjamin Brown. Did you hear the name?" I said, "Somehow I think I have a connection with a Benjamin Brown with the B'rak B'jam Project in B'rak B'jam, but I don't know." He said, "Well, I'd like to have the two of you meet and see what happens when you discuss Palestine and Zionism together. He is very, very disappointed. If he is in town would you come in tonight?" I said,. "All right, I'm very tired, but if you say tonight, I'll come tonight." He calls up. Benjamin Brown was there.He said, "Benjamin, I'm having a group of people in my home tonight. Can you come?" He said, "Sure, I'll be there." "I'd like you to come for supper." He wanted me also to come for supper. "And you can bring your sister along." When I came home and told my sister about it, she said, "You're crazy. Here we are - we're so busy, we have so much to do and here you are, you're going to meet some old people, another little old man, this Wallerstein." He's such a wonderful person, Wallerstein. "He's a little old man and you'll meet some more old men." She said,, "No, I'm not going to go." I said, "Okay, so I'll go by myself and I'll go tonight." I had my hair done a little bit and I was there. GOLDSMITH: And that's how you met your husband? BROWN: That's where I met - later he became my husband. It took a little time. Another thing - I was very kosher, still very kosher. Also, I didn't eat any non-kosher food and, of course, he was not very kosher and I had dinner there. I found something to eat, but I ate very little. When I came there, Benjamin was already there. I was introduced to Benjamin. There were number of other people - men and women - there. Wallerstein, Uncle Al was very good in getting people to talk -- he was a very interesting person himself - in starting a conversation, getting people to talk and draw them out. So, he started with Benjamin about his trip and Benjamin began to tell about what happened and how he came to Palestine and what he encountered there and that sort of thing. There were a number of things that I said and I was critical of what he had to say and how he found things. I didn't think I made such a good impression - I was quite critical of some of the things that he had to say. But there was a great attraction, an immediate physical attraction. I didn't realize it at the time. When we got through it was quite late. I left my sister, Rena - I told her where I was going but I didn't give her an address, a telephone number, nothing. Benjamin said to me, "Miss Sokolow, I have to go to Peakskill." He lived in Peakskill at the time. "I have to go back to Peakskill by train, I'll be late for my train. Will you please accompany me to Grand Central Station? We'll take a cab and I'll send you back home in the cab.' He said, "I'd like to get a chance to talk to you some more before I get the train."So, I went along with him. By the time we got through It must have been about 12:30 or 1:00. My sister was frantic. She didn't know what happened to me. She didn't know how to get me. She thought it would take an hour or so. I went for dinner, don't forget, 6:00, and here it was 1:00 and her sister's not home. She thought surely I must have been killed or something had happened to me. She was in tears. She didn't know who to call or how to get to Wallerstein. She didn't ask and I didn't even give her a telephone number or anything. She never knew about my friends. They were older people. I liked older people when I was young. I was attracted to older people. GOLDSMITH: Was your husband much older than you? BROWN: My husband was 14 years older than I. But he didn't seem to be that old. So, anyway I went with him to Grand Central Station and we talked quite a while. He said, "Do you like Russian music?" I said, "Why?" He said, "Because a nephew - Sidor Belarsky - did you ever hear of Sidor Belarsky, a very well-known Russian singer? We're arranging a concert for him in Carnegie and, if you're interested, I'd like to send you tickets so you can bring as many friends as you like." I said, "Well, I don't know very much about music, but I do like Russian music very much and when I come here again, I'd very much like to." He took my address and telephone number in the meantime, and he took his train, and I went back. When I came my sister said, "I was just about to call the police." She was in tears and said, "What happened? Why didn't you let me know? Why didn't you call me?" Then I tell her the story of what happened here - I was very much engrossed in this very special person and kept praising this person. She said, "You know, Sarah, I think you're in love." I said, "You're crazy. What do you mean, in love? I like people, you know. I met all kinds. I met Henrietta Szold." GOLDSMITH: Did you? BROWN: Oh, yes. I met Henrietta Szold In New York City. She took me somewhere also. I met many people like that, very interesting people. I said, "You know, I'm interested in people. This person is especially interesting and you're crazy to think that I'm in love with him." She said, "I'm sure you're in love." GOLDSMITH: And it all worked out well. BROWN: When I came home I found just a little letter. My husband came here also when he was about 14 years old and his English was not so terribly good, but later on he learned much more. But, I received a very interesting little letter in English, with some errors, but it was very interesting - inviting me to come to the concert - "If you're going to be in New York City at the time I'll send you some tickets and you can take your friends." There was a young lady that knew Wallerstein and he said that he'll send the tickets to her for me. GOLDSMITH: Is it Wallerstein or Wellerstein? BROWN: Wallerstein, W-a-l-l-e-r-s-t-e-i-n. This was Bertha Wallerstein and she was married to a non-Jewish man who was also very well-known. GOLDSMITH: Tell me about Henrietta Szold, when you met her. BROWN: Oh, Henrietta Szold. That was something else. When did I meet Henrietta Szold? Oh, I met her at Wallerstein's one time. I came in from North Adams -- I was still in North Adams at the time before I married my husband, when I met Henrietta. Whenever I'd come to Wallerstein's he's always got some interesting people. I'm a Zionist, of course -- some of them said, "Do you know Henrietta?" Henrietta was his niece, Wallerstein's niece, I think his wife's niece. I said, "Well, I heard her speak a few times. I never actually met her, I never talked to her. I know her work. I admire her work." He said, "How would you like to come in and have lunch with us at my place and I'll ask Henrietta if she can come?" " So, he invited Henrietta and she said yes, she'd be glad to come. She came and that's where I met Henrietta Szold in person. Extremely interesting - we had very interesting conversations. Henrietta said, "I'm sorry, I have some special occasion that I have to go to and how about you accompanying me. Would you like to go with me?" I was ready to go and I said, "Sure, I'll go." This time I didn't have my sister with me and I said, "Surely, I'll go along with you." So, I went to that very meeting extremely, extremely interesting. From then on, Henrietta and I became very close and have been great friends. GOLDSMITH: I would like to, if we can, find a few more stories about the friends you had in Phoenix. If you can tell me anything interesting about Sobols -- BROWN: We were a group all together. There was Mr. and Mrs. Sobol, that was Paula's -- what was Paula's husband's name? I knew them so well, see, I forgot the names. His brother was Dr. Jack Sobol. Yes, when I was here I was introduced to the Sobols and I met the Hershmans - the two family Hershmans. One was Tanya Hershman and her husband. GOLDSMITH: Do they spell their name with two N's at the end or one? BROWN: One N. H-e-r-s-h-m-a-n. GOLDSMITH: And you mentioned Dr. and Mrs. -- BROWN: Dr. and Mrs. Shafer. GOLDSMITH: How do they spell their name? BROWN: S-h-a-f-e-r. All of them are extremely interesting people. I met a very interesting group up here when I first came. I was very lucky all along, meeting interesting people wherever I came. GOLDSMITH: And you said you organized a discussion group. What kind of things did you discuss? BROWN: They had a discussion group that they had. They were discussing Jewish affairs, anything of a Jewish nature. Wherever they happened they were discussing this. GOLDSMITH: Do you have any interesting stories about something that might have happened then? BROWN: I can't think. Can we meet again some time? GOLDSMITH: If there are stories that you remember about -- BROWN: Oh, yes. I have to look up some things. Some things I have written about that I'll see if I can recall. GOLDSMITH: I would be happy to do that. BROWN: I have to go do some things. I'm very active up here, too. GOLDSMITH: Yes. You're active in Na-amat, you said? BROWN: Na-amat. I am the president of the Golda Meier Na-amat up here. It was formerly Pioneer Women. Now it's called Na-amat in Israel, so they named every organization connected with Pioneer Women Na-amat organization, and ours is Golda Meier Na-amat. I met Golda Meier and I know her very well. GOLDSMITH: Of course, I would like to hear those stories, too. I would like to hear more about Phoenix, the people that you knew and then we can add that on at a later date Thank you very much. [end of transcript]